PPI on 997.1 for bore scoring: is it a 18/20 value - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

good morning everyone, I am in the process of buying a 2007 porsche 997.1 4s targa. Prior to purchase I had a PPI done, specifically I asked for cylinder compression testing for bore scoring. I should mention that the car shows no symptoms or problems. The result was as follows: cylinder 6 seal: 18/20 cylinder 5 seal: 20/20 cylinder 4 seal: 19/20 cylinder seal 3: 19/20 cylinder seal 2: 20/20 cylinder seal 1: 19/20 Cylinder 6, which as we know is the most critical on these cars for bore scoring, seemed a little low compared to the values of the other cylinders. According to the porsche centre the values are ok, but at that porsche centre they didn't seem very aware of the bore scoring problem. I wanted to ask you guys what you think. Thank you very much

I'd want a borescope rather than a compression test.

Thanks for your answer. I will try so ask for it to the seller, but what do you think about the compression results? thank you

As already mentioned - you need someone who has looked down lots of 997 bores to check it. I've never seen anyone suggest that a compression test is good for checking bore-score on a 997.

Yep, you need a Borescope to be sure a compression test isn't going to tell you what you are looking for. You also need someone with experience of what's good and what's bad to get a proper understanding too Where about is the car? Definitely do not buy a 997.1 without a borescope though, you'd be mad to do so.

Andre_Sant said: good morning everyone, I am in the process of buying a 2007 porsche 997.1 4s targa. Prior to purchase I had a PPI done, specifically I asked for cylinder compression testing for bore scoring. I should mention that the car shows no symptoms or problems. The result was as follows: cylinder 6 seal: 18/20 cylinder 5 seal: 20/20 cylinder 4 seal: 19/20 cylinder seal 3: 19/20 cylinder seal 2: 20/20 cylinder seal 1: 19/20 Cylinder 6, which as we know is the most critical on these cars for bore scoring, seemed a little low compared to the values of the other cylinders. According to the porsche centre the values are ok, but at that porsche centre they didn't seem very aware of the bore scoring problem. I wanted to ask you guys what you think. Thank you very much

Andre_Sant said: good morning everyone, I am in the process of buying a 2007 porsche 997.1 4s targa. Prior to purchase I had a PPI done, specifically I asked for cylinder compression testing for bore scoring. I should mention that the car shows no symptoms or problems. The result was as follows: cylinder 6 seal: 18/20 cylinder 5 seal: 20/20 cylinder 4 seal: 19/20 cylinder seal 3: 19/20 cylinder seal 2: 20/20 cylinder seal 1: 19/20 Cylinder 6, which as we know is the most critical on these cars for bore scoring, seemed a little low compared to the values of the other cylinders. According to the porsche centre the values are ok, but at that porsche centre they didn't seem very aware of the bore scoring problem. I wanted to ask you guys what you think. Thank you very much 5% variation, and high scores across the whole engine looks good to me. But won't tell you about bore scoring.

thank you all for your answers. Unfortunately when I took the car to the porsche center in my town they told me that they only have a low resolution camera and would see very little. They were the ones who advised me to do the compression test. Now also thanks to your information I have instead realized that the compression test says very little, even a completely rifled cylinder could easily get 20/20 that is the maximum score. Conversely, I cannot get a ppi with professional probe done correctly. Do you guys say the 18/20 on cylinder 6 is a red alert? The machine has no oil leakage, no erratic oil consumption, no strange fumes, no metallic sounds. I also checked the exhaust pipes, I put my finger in there and there was just a little thread of black dirt, which could be soot, but it was a really insignificant amount. I know that soot in the exhaust pipe can be an alert, but I don't think an exhaust pipe can be 100% clean, or can it? Thanks a lot

I'd say it doesn't really matter. you've got no information about the state of the bores. So you are just taking a chance. View it in that light to make your decision.

We've seen cars with replacement engines with less than 30,000 miles. We dont know the compressions test results prior to this but the point is that even low mileage cars or engines can score up. So you need to stop thinking that bore scoring is wear related - it is not.

Bear in mind that bore scoring can often be misdiagnosed by people who have very little experience in these matters. A camera may pick up some marks, which are instantly diagnosed as scoring. Some marking is natural and may well be be fine. I wouldn’t trust a Porsche center to do this and would much rather a very well trusted indy have a look. They’ll be more used to working on cars from this generation.

OPC inspection of little value on this era of car, unfortunately. You'd need to take it to a good indy if you want to do your due diligence on the bores. And the rest of the car, to be frank.

did you make the inspection from the bottom (from the pan), or did you make from the high (after you removed the plugs)? I ask it because I read that if the problem is at an early stage, than you can see it better from the bottom

Chubbyross said: Bear in mind that bore scoring can often be misdiagnosed by people who have very little experience in these matters. A camera may pick up some marks, which are instantly diagnosed as scoring. Some marking is natural and may well be be fine. I wouldn’t trust a Porsche center to do this and would much rather a very well trusted indy have a look. They’ll be more used to working on cars from this generation. yes, it is the big problem My official porsche center told me that they don't know how make the inspection from the bottom, and they told me that from the high the quality will be very very low

Where are you based Andre?

in italy (near florence, in tuscany)

Ahhh that probably limits most people here being able to point you in the right direction of a Porsche specialist., you never know though.

Andre_Sant said: did you make the inspection from the bottom (from the pan), or did you make from the high (after you removed the plugs)? I ask it because I read that if the problem is at an early stage, than you can see it better from the bottom They put it on a vehicle lift and took the plugs out, put a borescope in all 6 cylinders. I didn't do it, I wasn't there - a good respected specialist Porsche garage did it. 1-3 were fine, 4 had signs of wear but not excessive, 5 had more wear and 6 was excessive. It was very obvious from the photos, even to me - and according to the garage, not actually bad, but not going to get any better and will need a rebuild in the not too distant future (depending on mileage, useage etc etc)

dgswk said: They put it on a vehicle lift and took the plugs out, put a borescope in all 6 cylinders. I didn't do it, I wasn't there - a good respected specialist Porsche garage did it. 1-3 were fine, 4 had signs of wear but not excessive, 5 had more wear and 6 was excessive. It was very obvious from the photos, even to me - and according to the garage, not actually bad, but not going to get any better and will need a rebuild in the not too distant future (depending on mileage, useage etc etc) Exactly the same as the few I had scoped. What was the dealers stance upon getting the news?

They were gutted, thanked me for my call and courtesy. Small independent, nice people, great reviews / feedback. Sounded like the previous owner traded it in and dodged the bullet. Did they know? Who knows. The Indy I used for the inspection told me that they never take on a 996/997 without a Borescope. Also really good people to deal with.

It amazes me that any dealer/specialist takes one in without doing a scope beforehand.

OP is there a way that you can get borescope pictures done by a local garage and then find an expert to review the photos? I'm sure there will be UK specialists who will look for a modest charge (like the people the other poster had do the inspection).

I'm in the process of buying a 997.1 3.8S Cab at the moment. Lovely car, on the surface immaculate and lowish miles. Knowing a borescored rebuild is a £10-15k bill, plus any other issues.... suspension, radiators, condensers, pipework, brakes etc., I have asked the dealer to take it to a local Porsche Indy, and I'm paying £300ish plus VAT for a 4hr PPI and full Borescope inspection. It may come back clean and I'll happily pay the asking price, any immediate issues and we'll have a haggle depending on seriousness etc. Wouldn't take it to a Porsche main dealer, I just get the feeling that at the £25-£35k 996/7 end of the market, Indy's have far more experience of them. Every service book I've looked at seems to have well respected Indy stamps for the last 5-7 years once the warranty had run out. My day of reckoning is Monday! Good luck! Edited by dgswk on Tuesday 17th January 12:45

dgswk said: I'm in the process of buying a 997.1 3.8S Cab at the moment. Lovely car, on the surface immaculate and low-ish miles. Knowing a borescored rebuild is a £10-15k bill, plus any other issues.... suspension, radiators, condensers, pipework, brakes etc., I have asked the dealer to take it to a local Porsche Indy, and I'm paying £300ish plus VAT for a 4hr PPI and full Borescope inspection. It may come back clean and I'll happily pay the asking price, any immediate issues and we'll have a haggle depending on seriousness etc. Wouldn't take it to a Porsche main dealer, I just get the feeling that at the £25-£35k 996/7 end of the market, Indy's have far more experience of them. Every service book I've looked at seems to have well respected Indy stamps for the last 5-7 years once the warranty had run out. My day of reckoning is Monday! Good luck! Day of reckoning has arrived, its bore scored on Cyl 6 and Cyl 5. Best £300+vat I've spent and I've just delivered the bad news to the dealer. GET A BORESCOPE DONE BY A PORSCHE INDY SPECIALIST No soot, no ticking, no outward signs. My hunt goes on.... Edited by dgswk on Tuesday 17th January 12:49

Going up through the sump is not the usual procedure by most UK indies, including Hartech AFAIK. Granted, it is thought to be better for early scoring detection, but not clear what the labour costs would be versus the usual scoping through the plug holes. It's worth noting that it's almost certainly the piston skirt coating that fails first, which then goes on to damage the bore. So, the only way to be absolutely certainly of condition is to tear the engine down. Not really practical. Which is a round about way of saying that getting the engine scoped in the usual way by an experienced outfit is probably sufficient.

Exactly Going up from the bottom doesnt mean lifting the car in the air. It means going in from below the piston / piston rings. Going in from above means going in from the spark plug hole. Scoring starts from the bottom and in some cases can cause chunks of the bore to break off at the bottom of the cylinder. You cant see this from above unless the scoring goes up the side to the upper part of the cylinder. Or if it is getting bad. Minor or early scoring can be there but not visible from above or from the spark plug hole. There will always be a part of the cylinder or bore which is obstructed by the piston itself if looking from above.

My advice................ Buy a Gen 1 with a rebuilt engine done by a specialist who has done the appropriate modifications to prevent it happening again, not by Porsche who will rebuild it as it was when new so it may fail again in a few years. Or buy a Gen 2. I've owned both a manual Gen 1 997s with Strasse rebuild and a manual Gen 2 997s. Any Porsche at this age loves needing expensive parts fitted regardless of how good they are. I wasn't getting the fun or use from mine so it went down the road and my Lotus Elise stays as its more fun to drive and costs next to nothing to keep. The Gen 2 has a better interior but otherwise very little difference in the driving experience. Edited by mike150 on Tuesday 17th January 15:56

ATM said: Exactly Going up from the bottom doesnt mean lifting the car in the air. It means going in from below the piston / piston rings. Going in from above means going in from the spark plug hole. Scoring starts from the bottom and in some cases can cause chunks of the bore to break off at the bottom of the cylinder. You cant see this from above unless the scoring goes up the side to the upper part of the cylinder. Or if it is getting bad. Minor or early scoring can be there but not visible from above or from the spark plug hole. There will always be a part of the cylinder or bore which is obstructed by the piston itself if looking from above. yes, starting from the bottom is much better, but at the same time I don't know anyone who can do it near me. Since the car has no apparent problems my doubt is that doing an inspection from above is practically useless, because if there was a problem I would only see it from below Of course, from what I read in this forum, the other user with a simple bore scope from above still avoided the problem, even though the car was apparently ok. ___ I spoke to my private seller today and told him: I'll pay you 500 euro extra for the trouble (550$), but I want to have another indy do the bore scope inspection, at my expense. (so I will pay the bore scope inspection + I will give 500 euro to the seller) he was annoyed by my attitude because we had already taken the car to porsche and had them do all the checks they suggested we do and we had wasted a lot of time on them he told me that he was tired and that if I wanted to do more checks and waste more time then he wanted, 2500 euros more (like 2800 usd more), which seemed excessive to me. What do you think? In general I know that when a seller doesn't want to do checks it's always a bad sign, on the other hand I also understand that i made him lose a lot of time already and that at the time of the first check he was available anyway. It should also be mentioned that at the first check, porsche had found no oil leaks on the spark plugs (although they didn't unscrew them, they just looked at them for the 111 checks).

mike150 said: My advice................ Buy a Gen 1 with a rebuilt engine done by a specialist who has done the appropriate modifications to prevent it happening again, not by Porsche who will rebuild it as it was when new so it may fail again in a few years. Or buy a Gen 2. I've owned both a manual Gen 1 997s with Strasse rebuild and a manual Gen 2 997s. Any Porsche at this age loves needing expensive parts fitted regardless of how good they are. I wasn't getting the fun or use from mine so it went down the road and my Lotus Elise stays as its more fun to drive and costs next to nothing to keep. The Gen 2 has a better interior but otherwise very little difference in the driving experience. Edited by mike150 on Tuesday 17th January 15:56 Gen 2 in general is better, but also in 997 GEN 2, and in 991.1 you will have bore scoring. My problem is that I'm searching for a 997 TARGA MANUAL. It is very rare in italy, it is impossible to find in italy a 997.2 manual TARGA, and if you find them, it will cost a lot more (more than a new motor), but you will have again the bore scoring risk

Personally, I'd say going in through the plug holes is fine. You're talking about a pretty narrow window where scoring can be detected from below but not from above. And like I said, even from below you can't rule out that the piston coating has begun to fail and the whole process of scoring has in fact started. If going in from below gave you total visibility of the problem, might be worth insisting on that. But it doesn't. Once you have some images of the bores, you have various options in terms of getting them looked at. They built a lot of these cars. If the seller won't allow an inspection, find another, I would suggest.

i called another former porsche centre, who told me that they do the inspection from the top, after removing the spark plugs, but that they use a low resolution camera, only from the front and not also from the side. since i'm also looking for another car, do you think it might still work?

I’ve posted pics here in case you haven’t seen them https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Like I said, no outward signs whatsoever.

Andre_Sant said: i called another former porsche centre, who told me that they do the inspection from the top, after removing the spark plugs, but that they use a low resolution camera, only from the front and not also from the side. since i'm also looking for another car, do you think it might still work? Sounds suboptimal. Any decent quality automotive outfit should be able to pull a few plugs and poke a decent quality camera in the holes. Good example here of a UK indy posting pictures of a scored engine using inexpensive kit: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1658485&h... This kind of camera equipment is dirt cheap these days, no need to muck about with poor quality images and just end up none the wiser and frustrated,

I got the ticking sound from my 997.1 and the sleepless nights that followed. A trip up to Strasse in Leeds and they diagnosed what i already suspected. i took comfort that 94,000 miles was a decent innings and booked it in with them for the casing up rebuild. we also fitted lower temp sensor for thermostst and seals and bearing upgrades. Engine now in rude health and the bill was significantly less than a newer car. The 996 and 997.1 are the best naturally aspirated sounding water cooled Porsches. Our 991S sounded like a washing machine on economy spin cycle. Worth the money rebuilding a great engine.

Hi Andre, One thing to consider, if only anecdotally, is that it appears that bore scoring is less common in warmer climates, like Italy. This could partially be the reason why your dealer hasn't heard much of it. However, not saying it won't be an issue. Have you checked the Italian P forums about this? As for the extra Eur2500, is there really such demand for Targa's in Italy? I always see the market very slow there with some cars (not always 997s) staying on sale for years. Personally I'd put that towards any mechanical work than give it to the seller! Good luck with the purchase.

RiccardoG said: Hi Andre, One thing to consider, if only anecdotally, is that it appears that bore scoring is less common in warmer climates, like Italy. This could partially be the reason why your dealer hasn't heard much of it. However, not saying it won't be an issue. Have you checked the Italian P forums about this? As for the extra Eur2500, is there really such demand for Targa's in Italy? I always see the market very slow there with some cars (not always 997s) staying on sale for years. Personally I'd put that towards any mechanical work than give it to the seller! Good luck with the purchase. I read a statistic a few years ago that more convertible cars are sold in the UK in percentage terms than in Europe. At the time the suggested reason was that in hotter climates you do not have the opportunity to lower a roof as it is too hot. Days like this when it is too are just not common in the UK - or never happen if you live in the north. So it might be possible that Europeans just dont like the Targa and dont want a massive glass roof on their car.

Today I tried to talk to the seller again, but he doesn't want to hear about it and doesn't want to do any further checks. In the end I made the painful decision to give up. Yes, in Italy there have been fewer cases of bore scoring, but they are still present. personally, I didn't feel like taking the risk without being able to do a check-up after the things you have told me and after I had done further research from other sources. However, I have found another car, with fewer miles, still number plate and the seller seems willing to do all the relevant checks, even at his own expense. the car has almost half the miles, is a 4 and not a 4s, but costs a bit more about the roof: if I'm correct, you can remain without the top, like here: so I don't see it like a very big problem At the opposite I must admit that my first choice was a porsche cayman 981, because there is not the bore scoring problem at all. Than I saw the TARGA and I like it so much ! Edited by Andre_Sant on Wednesday 18th January 14:14 Edited by Andre_Sant on Wednesday 18th January 14:15

Andre_Sant said: Gen 2 in general is better, but also in 997 GEN 2, and in 991.1 you will have bore scoring. My problem is that I'm searching for a 997 TARGA MANUAL. It is very rare in italy, it is impossible to find in italy a 997.2 manual TARGA, and if you find them, it will cost a lot more (more than a new motor), but you will have again the bore scoring risk Andre_Sant said: At the opposite I must admit that my first choice was a porsche cayman 981, because there is not the bore scoring problem at all. If you are concerned about scoring on a 997.2 / 991.1, it's the same risk on a 981. Personally, I think the risk with any MA1 car is very, very low. But 981 no different from 997.2 / 987.2 and 991.1. All the same motor.

Have to admit, those Targas do look rather appealing. Used to think they were a bit chestwig chariot. And in reality not sure I would want to take the risk of the roof being problematic. But appealing all the same!

MA121C said: Andre_Sant said: Gen 2 in general is better, but also in 997 GEN 2, and in 991.1 you will have bore scoring. My problem is that I'm searching for a 997 TARGA MANUAL. It is very rare in italy, it is impossible to find in italy a 997.2 manual TARGA, and if you find them, it will cost a lot more (more than a new motor), but you will have again the bore scoring risk Andre_Sant said: At the opposite I must admit that my first choice was a porsche cayman 981, because there is not the bore scoring problem at all. If you are concerned about scoring on a 997.2 / 991.1, it's the same risk on a 981. Personally, I think the risk with any MA1 car is very, very low. But 981 no different from 997.2 / 987.2 and 991.1. All the same motor. This. A 981 will not solve your potential issues. I wouldn't touch one without a borescope.

northernmedia said: This. A 981 will not solve your potential issues. I wouldn't touch one without a borescope. Surely it's not that bad? First, number of MA1 cars with scoring failures is pretty tiny. It's also a totally different failure mode and I think there's a decent argument to say that if a lump has a few miles on it and hasn't failed, the risk dissipates, whereas M96/7 can and do score anywhere from very low miles to 100k-plus. You're never safe! But whatever your views on MMA1 scoring, it's the same whether it's a 981 or a 991.1 / 997.2.

thank you very much. I learnt something new. I thought the 981 caymans were completely exempt, but it actually comes back to the concept that they are derived from the porsche 991.1, so it can have the same problems in the future. On the TARGAs: yes, they are very nice, but obviously the roof requires a proper maintenance. Also I've noticed that in the past vintage TARGAs (I'm thinking 993) have had major revaluations over the base 993s, so it's not out of the question that this will happen again in the future (for 997 vs 997 targa). Also, as much as 997 TARGAs cost a lot more than standard 997 coupes, the differential is much less than it is between 991 coupes and 991 targa (at least among the ones I've seen)

MA121C said: northernmedia said: This. A 981 will not solve your potential issues. I wouldn't touch one without a borescope. Surely it's not that bad? First, number of MA1 cars with scoring failures is pretty tiny. It's also a totally different failure mode and I think there's a decent argument to say that if a lump has a few miles on it and hasn't failed, the risk dissipates, whereas M96/7 can and do score anywhere from very low miles to 100k-plus. You're never safe! But whatever your views on MMA1 scoring, it's the same whether it's a 981 or a 991.1 / 997.2. Thought 997.2 doesn't suffer from bore scoring? I've read that Hartech said the only issues they see is from engines not looked after properly and driven hard from cold, end result is also very different from bore scoring....

Sorted my bores. And an oversize to 4.1. Rude not to. #Hartech And, yes, they did the other half too Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 18th January 21:53