911, an anachronism?

Hello all, The title seems like a notion which has repeatedly dogged the 911 throughout its history. From its inception, to the 928, and now the water coolers. Is the 911 dead? Looking at the racing results in the Japan GT series, the GT3R is seen not to be competitive with comparable entries, even within the same class. Cars like the Toyota MR-S, Subaru Impreza, Nissan Silvia and others. While it is able to hold off an unreliable BMW M3, it is most usually seen 3rd or 4th position within class. This is a worrying trend, as it shows that the car is no longer as competitive as used to be. Admittedly, the cars share only their names with their street-legal counterparts, this may still indicate an inadequacy in the basic design and layout. Even on the street, the standard Carrera can be challenged by the new crop of hot-rod sedans, such as german super-saloons, like the BMW M5, Mercedes E55, Audi RS6, and RS4, as well as the Japanese 'tin-boxes', the Subaru WRX, Mitsubishi EVO. It seems like the 911 isn't as fast as it was. Nor, is it the most powerful. Other cars, like the Audi RS6 and the Mercedes SLK AMG, both cars with sporting pretensions, boast more horsepower than the current 911, with 450 hp and 350 hp respectively. Can the 911 keep up with it's flat six? No doubt technological innovations may lengthen its lifespan, but how much longer can it last as a fast, rear-engined sports car? Should it be left to die, victim of technological progress? I would really appreciate all your insights into this. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Well, what is a "911" anyway? In some sense it is really just a name. Porsche could apply it to any model they chose. i.e. Would it still be a 911 if... It had an h20 flat-8... How 'bout a V8... Flipped and mounted mid-engine... How 'bout in a H20 V8 mounted in the front... So, I'm not sure exactly what a 911 is--other than Porsche's flagship model. Chris

What is disconcerting is that there are no new design factory race cars. It is certainly disheartening to note that we no longer see Porsches routinely at the winner's podium in most if not all races that Porsche cars run in. As far as street cars, the 911 can hold it's own very well against the cars that you mentioned. Recently had an M3, an M5, an RS4, an AMG SLK together with my C4S on the same track, and they were all easily left behind. And have you seen the WRX? Can't hold a candle to the 911, IMHO. So, is the 911 dead? It is alive, well, and still breathing fire, thank you very much.

Agreed. Well said Palting, you're the man! Regards, Dan

Here is an amatuer's (sp?) opinion, so take it FWIW.. The 911 has been around for 42+ years and will be around literally forever. That is the "shape" will be around forever. because it is the Porsche signature. In order for Porsche to survive on into the near future it will have to produce a greater variety of models. Who knows what they will be..variations on the theme or totally different vehicles. Who knows what will be under the 911 "shape", but the shape will remain and it will be called a 911 in the same way that the 964,993, and 996 is a "911." Now, if you look far into the future when alternative fuel vehicles pockmark this planet and there are severe resrtictions on gasoline, who knows what Porsche will be doing. I just think we'll always see a "911" every model year ad infinitum.. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

[quote] Well, what is a "911" anyway? In some sense it is really just a name. Porsche could apply it to any model they chose. <hr></blockquote> Well, that is, essentially, my question. What exactly defines a 911, or any Porsche, for that matter? Up until recently, 911s have been like beetles, air-cooled, rear-engined, rear wheel drive vehicles. Now that they've watercooled it, what'll be next, you gather? Will it turn out to be a marketing exercise that VW's New Beetle is, or will it be a highly evolved design which we may not be able recognize as a Porsche? Most importantly, would you buy it for what it was worth? I mean, will they hold true to their engineering expertise, or will they move to produce profit? I know it is empty talk, given our unpriviledged position, but one can't help but wonder where they'll take it from here. Do you agree with the direction they're moving in? At any rate, the world's moving faster. I know the standard WRX cannot match a Porsche (Let's not bring in the rally versions), but it sure is getting closer. I've read articles where drivers in a Peugeot 106 GTI could drive as fast as a Lamborghini Diablo, over country roads. The way I see it, Porsche's going in that direction too, given the rate at which small cars are becoming faster. Sorry for the rather speculative banter, I just wanted to get it off my chest, being a Porsche fan and all.

I--for one--like speculative banter! I think doncapecod hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a 911 arch-type. For me too, it is a certain shape. What shape is that, you ask?. Hmmm... Not sure, but I know it when I see it! Sorta like.. well never mind. Cheers, Chris

So what if the 911 is an anachronism? The car is special and has character! For me, the definition of 911 is: rear-engined, 2+2, classical silhouette.

Maybe I'm just old but for most of my life the 911 was not the fastest car on the road. Any sports car is a compromise between performance and “driveability” and I think the 911 is the best balance between them. It may not be as fast on the track as my Lotus Exige, but it is the best all around car. Good for trips, a run through the mountains, or a day at the track. For me, there is no substitute... Just my .02 worth... Roy

The 911 is DEAD.. A Porsche 911 is the following Air Cooled 2+2 with a flat six hung behind the rear wheels. the 964 and 993 are debatable as "real" 911's since they were the firts major revisions of the car since 1963. First the 964 had under the skin updates with the old skin. The 993 morphed the skin, but the basic body was still the same. Of course the basic layout remained. We can argue about he 964 & 993 and never come to a real solution. The 996 is NOT a 911. The air cooling is gone as well as a complete body and interior change. There are far too many updates to call this a 911 still. Now this does not make the 964/993 nor the 996 bad cars. It just that 996 is no longer a 911. Porsche should quit using the 911 term for their cars. I know the reason is for marketing, but then 911 should still be called 356! Heck the 911 has more in common with the 356 than a 996!

911 = great quality reliable and reasonably versatile rear engined sportscar that can out-handle its competition even with less horsepower due to its near perfect balance to deliver extremly pleasurable sporty driving. Through its long history its never been about straight line acceleration figures or horsepower. Its about handling and at the limit pleasure of driving. Can anyone think of a sportcar that can out handle a 911 and delive the same pleasure at the wheel in sporty driving while still being a reliable everyday car? M3, M5, RS4, RS6, SL55, C55, SLK55, etc. may be faster in a straight line or drag race and very versatile but are heavier and decafinated and handle poorly when compared to a 911. Japanese sportcars such as Mitsu Lancer , Subaru Impreza are cheap and good handling but thats all you get, a cheap, unreliable, noisy, unconfortable, low quality, mediocre fast car. Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborginni, etc. may be just as pleasurable to drive or even more, and can handle extremly well but are unreliable, high maintenance and too unconfortable or versatile for everyday use with a price tag for the few. Of course, there are those who buy the 911 only for its looks, carisma, or "status" and then only use it to drive to work and back. Those are then the ones who complain about the 991 because their neighbor's Merc has 170 more HP than his 911. As far as I�m concerned, the 911 is alive and kicking considering the global trend of car manufactures and occidental govermental politics, and can�t wait to see the next generation of 911�s. Looking foward to turnning the ignition key and waking up the flat-six tomorrow...

[quote]Originally posted by Paul Barras: <strong>Looking at the racing results in the Japan GT series, the GT3R is seen not to be competitive with comparable entries, </strong><hr></blockquote> Hmmm...maybe I just imagined Le Mans and the ALMS.

[quote]Originally posted by M758: <strong>The 911 is DEAD.. A Porsche 911 is the following Air Cooled 2+2 with a flat six hung behind the rear wheels. Porsche should quit using the 911 term for their cars. I know the reason is for marketing, but then 911 should still be called 356! Heck the 911 has more in common with the 356 than a 996!</strong><hr></blockquote> This is a 911: Air cooled, flat 6, 2L, 130 HP, 1070kg, built 1963. If it's not air cooled, it's not a 911. If it's not a flat 6, it's not a 911. If it's not a 2L engine, it's not a 911. If it's not 130 HP, it's not a 911. If it's not 1070 kg, it's not a 911. If it's not built in 1963, its not a 911. If you want to be a purist, be a purist. None of this "996 is not a 911" and "964 and 993 are debatable" nonsense. But, M758, a 944 is definitely not a 911. Is it even a Porsche? Heh-heh-heh-heh .

the only sure way to kill porsche as a company would be to eliminate the 911--lets all remember this almost happened in the mid 80's! as for the "real" 911 being dead--get real--the 996 is a far superior car as far as grip, speed, comfort and safety is concerned. i loved my 1979 911 sc--20 years ago--but it doesn't hold a candle to a current 996--especially the 2002 c4s. the worst part about the 911's has always been the price--it still is too high--currently though just as in the past--there is no substitute! none of the other cars you mention are in the same class when going for a long road trip on curvy country roads.

[quote]a 944 is definitely not a 911. Is it even a Porsche? Heh-heh-heh-heh<hr></blockquote> ROTFLMAO...still laughing...I can't stop! Dan

Well said, Carlos. Having come from an M5 to a 996 C2, I can attest to the fact that these cars serve very different masters. The M5, RS6, E55, etc. are big, heavy sedans built primarily for high-speed straight-line cruising. The M5 handles exceptionally well for its heft, but has nowhere near the agility of the 996 C2. The Carerra is a finesse car. It's not about power - though you can have that too in the 996TT. It's the difference between working with a scalpel and working with an axe. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

[quote]Hmmm...maybe I just imagined Le Mans and the ALMS. <hr></blockquote> Perhaps you might like to check out the results for Sportscar championships throughout the world. The 911 does, indeed have an impressive record, but it is limited to its own class, which is somewhat sad. What Porsche needs now is a race winner, no question about it. That said, I think the 996 is a fantastic car. It may not go the fastest, but as a package, its pretty darn close to perfection. I just wonder when they'll hit the design's limits. Sportscar Championship results: <a href="http://wsrp.wz.cz/results2002.html" target="_blank">http://wsrp.wz.cz/results2002.html</a>

[quote]Originally posted by Palting: <strong> This is a 911: Air cooled, flat 6, 2L, 130 HP, 1070kg, built 1963. If it's not air cooled, it's not a 911. If it's not a flat 6, it's not a 911. </strong><hr></blockquote> Correct!... When talking about 911's remember the Porsche Type number designation. 356 was Engineering Project # 356. Most Porsche specifc parts on this car probably bore the 356.xxx. part number. The 911 was to be known as the 901, put Puegot has a copyright on x0x car designation so 901 was out. Then then went to 911. 911's contained parts with the 901.xxx.xxxx prefix or teh 911.xxx.xxx prefix. Cars built after the orginal 2.0L car still bore this 911 prefix since they are merely upgrades on the original design. From 1963 to 1989 the 911.xxx (or 901.xxx) part numbers existed on the car. Nearly all of the parts are transferable among the model years and no signifacnt upgrades were made except for incremental engine upgrades. Thoughout those years the FACTORY designation of the cars reamain 911 even through some were wore Carrera, Super Carrera, 911S, 911T, 911L, 911E, 911RS badges. The 912 I thing you will all agree is not 911, but curiously has 85% of the parts. Only major difference was the 356 motor. Of course the factory called them 912 because they were different. Even the 911 Turbo (Factory designation 930) was considered not a 911 and carried the 930 internal tag. Clearly the 964 is not a 911 since it carries the 964 internal tag and the factory guys clearly knew with the number of differnt parts it could not be a "911" any more. The marketing guys called a 911 to keep the public happy. Again the 993 was not a 911 as the factory did not call it such. The 993 and 964 are debatable as 911's since they carry a differenct factory designation, but are still 911's in many important ways. In general they do not stray too far from their parent tree and still use many 911.xxx part numbers. The 996 is a 911 in spirt only. There are no shared parts with the 63-89 cars that I am aware of. If there are please let me know. All of these radical modifications go beyond where I can call the car a 911. Quite honestly the 911 needed to die. A car that was great for 1963 can no longer stand high in 2002 so changes had to be made. They were made as they should be. What irritates me is that some persist in calling these new breed of cars 911's when thay model of cars is dead. The the updated interior and watercooled motor were required to keep-up in the market. Unfortuanty Porsche should have changed the name of the car as they did when they dropped the 356 designation and when with 901 for their new 6 cylinder car. Other car companies such as GM and FORD can and do pull the wool over peoples eyes, by naming current cars those of parts greatness simply to sell more cars. I used to think Porsche was above this, but clearly they are not. The 911 was never a car type... but a proper factory designation. The NAME Carrera can be applied to the 996 as is follows that lineage and Carrera is just a name. As for the 944. Yes it started life as VW/Audi Project EA425. There is historical precident for Porsche build their cars from other platforms. Take 356 for example that evolved from the lowely VW beatle. The basicly layout of the VW bealtle still remains today in the 996. In fact the NEW Beatle not made by VW, but by Porsche as the 996! The 924/944/951/968 cars all carry various part number from 477.xxx for 924 sourced parts to 944.xxxx parts to 951.xxx parts to 968.xxx parts to 928.xxx part. Even some 999.xxx part that are shared with the 911 of the day. What I do not understand is how Sensitive you guys are about your "911". All I state is that you drive the 996 not a 911. I did not make any comments about the performance or quailty of you cars nor question the "Porscheness" of you cars. In fact I said that I think you drive fine cars. My only point is that these are not 911s anymore. You guys then go apesh$t over it and disrespect my 944s. Wow that is Mature Behavior!

M758, I dont like you. Based on your theory, is a 1989 Z-28 Camaro a real Camaro? Only a 67 thru 69 should be allowed to use the name Camaro. Can we call the new Z06 a Corvette? Only the 53 thru 55 should be able to use the name Corvette. Does this seem stupid? Sure does. Almost as stupid as your comments...

M758- please disappear. Disparaging statements like that is asking for trouble. What did you expect from making bold(more like STUPID) statements like that-praise you and make you king? Flush ..... down the toilet you go. Mike

M758, Sensitive.?? Apes##t? <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> Read my post, then read your post, and tell me who is sensitive and went apes##t. Anyway, you missed the whole point, M758. Maybe that's not the only thing missing, heh-heh-heh .

Hmmm... 901=911 911 T,E,S = 911 911 3.2 = 911 Carreras = 911 Roadster = 911 Cabriolet = 911 Speedster = 911 964 = 911 993 = 911 996 = 911 Turbo = 911 GT whatevers = 911 930 = 911 Targa = 911 SC = 911 S's = 911 They ALL are 911's as will all future cars with the 911 shape regardless of what is under the hood... The adv. that lines up the 911's next to each other shows the evolution of the "shape", not the internal "guts"....and that's the way it will be for as long as Porsche is producing cars. Just my .02 End of story <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

M758! ! Answer me this : Do you believe what you say?! Are you serious?, It's a flat joke or what!!!? So if we follow what you say because we born just yesterday.. F.ex. a 996TT is not a 911 because this one doesn't have a carburator as the first 911 ????? My friend, dont take it bad, but try to keep in mind that what you think is your opinion , BUT is not necessarily what every body's think. (this is elementary but you need some help).

A rose by any other name... Deciding what is, or is not, a 911 -- when Porsche continues to use it as a model name -- is always going to involve a lot of subjective judgments. All I can really say is that I like mine a lot, no matter what anyone chooses to call it. <a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/WSIROct02-B.jpg" target="_blank"> </a> <a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/22SundayDrive-M.jpg" target="_blank"> </a> <a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/22Silhouette.jpg" target="_blank"> </a> <a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/image_uploads/OneUpSoloBlur-M.jpg" target="_blank"> </a>

[quote] The basicly layout of the VW bealtle still remains today in the 996. <hr></blockquote> So the the basic layout of the bEEtle remains in the 996 but not the basic layout of the 911 remains on the 996? Makes a lot of sense. [quote] In fact the NEW Beatle not made by VW, but by Porsche as the 996! <hr></blockquote> I see a little resentment against 996? you would like that the modern day 911 would not be a 911, but unfortunately for you, just because you wish it so, due to a personal conflict, doesn�t make it true. BTW, I think the 944 is a fine Porsche. And if Porsche decided to bring it back to life again, I can assure you many parts would differ from the original, and would also still be a 944. Its called updating and development. I�ll make it simple for you: Each model update of the 911 was based on the previous model, thats why it keeps the name through each update.

As a former owner of a '94 Lancia Delta HF Integralle, a '98 Subaru GT-4 tuned to 320HP and having driven the Mitsu Evo-5; finally now a 996 '99 carrera (after the 928, that is!).. Allow to note a comment that the elegance factor and striking pose of the 996 is far more appreciated and welcomed than any other car. As for the issue of power you noted, why is it that the GT3 still holds the Nurdburg (sorry for spelling!) record till date.. As pirelli clearly states: power is noting without control.. Wael

[quote]Originally posted by Carlos from Spain: <strong> BTW, I think the 944 is a fine Porsche. And if Porsche decided to bring it back to life again, I can assure you many parts would differ from the original, and would also still be a 944. Its called updating and development. </strong><hr></blockquote> Nope... the 944 is dead too!!! The only way a new car could be 944 is if has the same body shell and similar large 4 cyl slant motor. Honestly to be competitve it could not share many components so it would be different car. Also the the 944 then 968 were Porsches attempts to update 924. All used the same basic body shell and engine drive train layout. Only 924 used a different motor. All other were mostly the same motor. Any attempt to revive the concept of the 924/944 would be nice, but I would not be a 944 again. I may be similar, but should carry another designation. its not in the history of Porsche to use the numerical designation of a car as name the same way Corvette is used by GM. Once significnat (not evoutionary) changes to engine type and body shell the designation changes. Heck the 959 is 959 not a 911. There is talk about reinventing a 928. This a fine idea, but it will never be a 928. My comparison of the New Beatle as 996 was to demonstate the obserdity of the logic floating around here. If the 996 is 911 due to its flat 6 cyl engine behind the rear wheels and general shape. Then the Boxster (designatin 986) should really be called a 914 since really the boxster is the spirtual sucessor to the 914 just as the 996 is the spirtual sucessor to the 911. But just like the boxster is not 914 the 996 is not 911. Dead Porsches that can never be revived 356 550 718 904 906 908 910 917 935 936 956 962 934 911 914 924 944 931 951 928 930 959 964 993 (???) 911 GT1 ( I probably missed some too!) Live Porsches 986 (Boxster) 996 (Carrera) To be born ??? Cayenne ??? Carrera GT Any more questions 996 Owners? (BTW why is this the 996 forum and not the 911 forum?) <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Just so everyone's aware m758 posted a thread in the 911 forum hoping to get a bunch of 996 bashers in here. We don't post in the 944 forum about how it's not a real Porsche do we? Jack I've followed your posts on Pelican and your 911 is one of the prettiest out there. I have a few of your pics on my HD. I drove an '82 Targa for ten years, when it was time to trade up I had a REAL hard time w/ the 996s. I drove 993s and 996s and I couldn't argue that the 996 was a better performer, I just couldn't get over the looks. Then I saw some pics of 996s w/headlight covers, I know it's silly, but to me that sold it. After sixteen months I can say it's a 911. What's a 911? Well like what others have said previously - the shape - rear mounted flat six - 2 + 2 - handling - big FUN factor - Porsche's flagship model.... Yes, the 911 is alive and well thank you <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

M758...one flaw in your logic re the 914/Boxster is there was not a continuous evolution like the 911. There was around 30 years separating the 2 marques, while the 911 was continuous. The 2000 Millenium Edition was even badged "911" and it was within the 996 series. So even Porsche recognized the 996 as a 911. How can you argue against the manufacturer?

You guys can't have it both ways. On the one hand, a 911 is anything that Porsche decides to market as a '911', and on the other, a 911 must have certain characteristics, eg. 'classic shape', '2+2', 'rear engine', etc. If you go with the latter, you side with the 'purists.' So what if someone's list is longer and therefore excludes 996's? Your list is shorter and includes them. In either case it is entirely subjective, and you guys should recognize that you are all on the same side of the 'argument'.

This is a 911 And THIS is a 911

Wow, M758 You really like to define things. Did your mommy hit you because you don't own a real Porsche? Something sure left scars. Did you consider that there are different specific boards because there are... 1.) So damn many of us P-car nuts. 2.) Each model has its own problems etc. Of course not. I do not understand why a person would walk into a crowed chat room, and try to start a fight. Wait, maybe I do understand. If you tried this sort of tactic in--say--a bar, you would have your *** handed to you. Now, goodbye and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Chris

I did not walk in here to start a fight. The topic was is the 911 an anachronism? It merely stated the view that the 911 was dead and due to the many modifications of the engine, chassis, and interior that the 911 is dead. The new car (996) was similar to the 911 only in spirit, but not in direct form. I felt saddend years ago when I realized the now significant changes from the 911 of old. That is not to say that it did not need to happen, but comparing the 996 to 911 is apples to oranges. I did not intend to start a fight here. I do find it ammusing how many of you feel that you MUST drive a 911. While the 996 is fine car and I have never said otherwise you appear to take the stance that by calling it 996 (the internal Porsche designation for the car) that I some how lessen the car. Also I would have expected 996 owners to be far more rational about their cars and be able to discuss them on logical grounds. All I have gotten here is ridicule and scorn for even presenting the idea and my reasoning on why the 911 and 996 are different. Instead of open minded discussion I get "I don't like you" comments. I posted my question on the 911 forum to get a 3rd opinion to see what these traditional 911 owners thought of the new 996. Some have though exactly as I have while others have disagreeded in very mature manner and presented their ideas. A person posted on 944 forum about how the 944 was crap and just vw/audi and not Porsche. Naturally many 944 owners got upset. Some very much so. I do not expect rational responses from all of them since many are simply young punks with cars and cannot make objective decisions. I am fully aware of the 944's mix marriage hertiage and have no problem with it. It is reality that I accept. To me it is a Porsche in design and application even if it shares many VW/Audi parts or was origianlly planned as a Audi sports car. The 996 is Porsche. Of this there is no doubt. Personally while I like the car very much and would love to own a GT3 (I think this car most closely replicates the 911 mystique), I do not think of them as a 911 and will never do so. I guess it is question of degrees. What happens if the next "NEW 911" is front enginged cayenne V8 carring car with rear transmission in 911 style body. Is this still a 911 or a 928, or somehting completely different? What if it carries a 911 badge? What about a rear mounted cayenne v8? Or rear mounted flat-8? My point is where does the 911 stop? GM and other car makes think their buying public is so stupid that the can take a 6cyl front wheel drive low powered mid-size car and call it monte carlo or impalla when it bears little resemblence in any way to the original. Or how about the current Mercury Cougar. How does the compare to the design of the v8 live axle rwd cougers of yore? Point is that when a design strays too far from its roots then it needs to be called a different name. Porsche has hisortically had a much tighter design ideal. In the 80's Porsche knew the 911 was dying technologically. But they also found that the market place really wanted a 911. Their compromise. The 964 which looked just like the old 911, but was different under the skin. Over the years they realized that there were a segment of buyers that did not really care about the mechanicals of the car, but wanted a "911" as a status symbol and quite simply wanted a Porsche 911. My question is this if Porsche called this new 911 a 996 from the start would you have still bought it? I ask because with 4cyl front engine line they have done that to us many times. First it was the 924 then 944 then 968. Each car was really the same, but with evolutionary design, but had the same basic components. To us a 924 and 968 are very similar and akin to a 1963 911 and 1987 carrera. For us the changed the name along with the designation over the years. For the 911 guys they seem afraid to loose the those three little numbers. To use 944 is just number call it what you want its just number it is the car that is important. It appears that 911 is more than just a number and you guys feel that your cars would be lesser if the 911 were not attached to it. Personally I find the 996 to be a fine car no matter if is called a 911 or Carrera or 996 a type 34535. I value a car bases on it own merits not on a name! Flame away! BTW given proper rules allowances the 996 can hold its own on the track with many other cars. I do feel however that Porsche needs to change to a mid engine layout for future race/street cars. I do not know how much longer they can fight physics with engine located where it is. Honestly a SUPER boxster is really required to take on the best in the world. A super boxster may have a large flat six, a turbo flat six or a flat 8. The horizonally opposed motor has a very low CG and when placed inside the wheelbase makes and excellence racing platform.

The topic never stated anything, it asked a question. [quote]I did not walk in here to start a fight.....Flame away!<hr></blockquote> hmmmmmmmm... [quote] A person posted on 944 forum about how the 944 was crap and just vw/audi and not Porsche. I do not expect rational responses from all of them since many are simply young punks with cars and cannot make objective decisions.<hr></blockquote> Objective decisions about whether the 944 is crap or not? Looks like the guy owns or has owned several 944s. Have you ever owned a 996 or even any 911? You never answered my previous question nor do you acknowledge your countless flaws in logic. It's interesting that even on the 911 board only one person agrees with you. [quote]The new car (996) was similar to the 911 only in spirit, but not in direct form.<hr></blockquote> Rear mounted flat six engine - the soul of a sports car, same factory, classic shape, 2 + 2, and Porsche's flagship model. This is really a silly discussion considering Porsche's stance. Time passes. Places change. The 911 EVOLVES The subtle re-sculpting of a fender line. A few ounces shaved from a wheel. An increase in engine displacement. Details that can result in more speed, better handling, greater stability, and enhanced comfort. NO new 911 is identical to the one that came before. There are ALWAYS improvements, refinements, and enhancements and there always will be. The 911 remains the benchmark for high- performance sports cars. Just as no factory racing Porsche has ever rolled up to the starting line without some new development to enhance performance, no new 911 replaces it's predecessor without a list of improvements. It's been that way EVERY YEAR, for almost forty years. 924s, 944s, were just a blip in Porsche's history. To compare their designations with a 911 is ludicrous. The 911 is what the masses consider a Porsche. It is more then just a number, it represents thousands of race victories and a historical precedent. This is why we AND Porsche are so attached to the designation. Deal with it. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

[quote]Originally posted by M758: <strong>It merely stated the view that the 911 was dead and due to the many modifications of the engine, chassis, and interior that the 911 is dead. The new car (996) was similar to the 911 only in spirit, but not in direct form. I felt saddend years ago when I realized the now significant changes from the 911 of old. That is not to say that it did not need to happen, but comparing the 996 to 911 is apples to oranges. I did not intend to start a fight here. I do find it ammusing how many of you feel that you MUST drive a 911. While the 996 is fine car and I have never said otherwise you appear to take the stance that by calling it 996 (the internal Porsche designation for the car) that I some how lessen the car. Also I would have expected 996 owners to be far more rational about their cars and be able to discuss them on logical grounds. All I have gotten here is ridicule and scorn for even presenting the idea and my reasoning on why the 911 and 996 are different. Instead of open minded discussion I get "I don't like you" comments. I posted my question on the 911 forum to get a 3rd opinion to see what these traditional 911 owners thought of the new 996. Some have though exactly as I have while others have disagreeded in very mature manner and presented their ideas. A person posted on 944 forum about how the 944 was crap and just vw/audi and not Porsche. Naturally many 944 owners got upset. Some very much so. I do not expect rational responses from all of them since many are simply young punks with cars and cannot make objective decisions. I am fully aware of the 944's mix marriage hertiage and have no problem with it. It is reality that I accept. To me it is a Porsche in design and application even if it shares many VW/Audi parts or was origianlly planned as a Audi sports car. The 996 is Porsche. Of this there is no doubt. Personally while I like the car very much and would love to own a GT3 (I think this car most closely replicates the 911 mystique), I do not think of them as a 911 and will never do so. I guess it is question of degrees. What happens if the next "NEW 911" is front enginged cayenne V8 carring car with rear transmission in 911 style body. Is this still a 911 or a 928, or somehting completely different? What if it carries a 911 badge? What about a rear mounted cayenne v8? Or rear mounted flat-8? My point is where does the 911 stop? GM and other car makes think their buying public is so stupid that the can take a 6cyl front wheel drive low powered mid-size car and call it monte carlo or impalla when it bears little resemblence in any way to the original. Or how about the current Mercury Cougar. How does the compare to the design of the v8 live axle rwd cougers of yore? Point is that when a design strays too far from its roots then it needs to be called a different name. Porsche has hisortically had a much tighter design ideal. In the 80's Porsche knew the 911 was dying technologically. But they also found that the market place really wanted a 911. Their compromise. The 964 which looked just like the old 911, but was different under the skin. Over the years they realized that there were a segment of buyers that did not really care about the mechanicals of the car, but wanted a "911" as a status symbol and quite simply wanted a Porsche 911. My question is this if Porsche called this new 911 a 996 from the start would you have still bought it? I ask because with 4cyl front engine line they have done that to us many times. First it was the 924 then 944 then 968. Each car was really the same, but with evolutionary design, but had the same basic components. To us a 924 and 968 are very similar and akin to a 1963 911 and 1987 carrera. For us the changed the name along with the designation over the years. For the 911 guys they seem afraid to loose the those three little numbers. To use 944 is just number call it what you want its just number it is the car that is important. It appears that 911 is more than just a number and you guys feel that your cars would be lesser if the 911 were not attached to it. Personally I find the 996 to be a fine car no matter if is called a 911 or Carrera or 996 a type 34535. I value a car bases on it own merits not on a name! Flame away! BTW given proper rules allowances the 996 can hold its own on the track with many other cars. I do feel however that Porsche needs to change to a mid engine layout for future race/street cars. I do not know how much longer they can fight physics with engine located where it is. Honestly a SUPER boxster is really required to take on the best in the world. A super boxster may have a large flat six, a turbo flat six or a flat 8. The horizonally opposed motor has a very low CG and when placed inside the wheelbase makes and excellence racing platform.</strong><hr></blockquote> LOL!! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Hey bud, stop swimming in your ideas, what you wanted an not to say..We don't believe you that's it. man this is getting worse and worse, even comic!!!! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> so..STOP!

[quote] I do feel however that Porsche needs to change to a mid engine layout for future race/street cars. <hr></blockquote> I just love it when John Doe�s give Porsche enginners lessons. Don�t worry M758, I�m sure they're taking good notice of all you suggestions Ask any 911 owner if he was willing to give up the rear seats and the rear-engine character just to have the engine mounted like on the Boxer. [quote] I do not know how much longer they can fight physics with engine located where it is. <hr></blockquote> Hmmm, I wonder where the GT3 has its WATER-cooled engine?. They don�t do too bad. You have no idea of what you are talking about nor what the 911 mystique really is. Have you even driven a 911?. The 911 has been the most succesful sport car platform in the history of motorsport, and with its engine always rear mounted. I�m getting the idea you just wish the 911 was dead.

Who decides what a 911 is? The owners? The drivers? Enthusiasts? Obviously they'd like to think so, but ultimately the moniker is bestowed upon the cars by the manufacturer. Anything else is just conceit. If Porsche calls a diesel-powered tricycle a 911, then it's a 911...

[quote]Originally posted by Lee from Toronto: <strong> If Porsche calls a diesel-powered tricycle a 911, then it's a 911...</strong><hr></blockquote> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> You CAN'T be serious!! <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> BTW the Marketing Guys call it 911. The engineers, factory poeple, and Technicians call it 996! Look at you part numbers 996.xxx.xxx <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

[quote]BTW the Marketing Guys call it 911. <hr></blockquote> And if the marketing guys call a product a Widget, but the engineering guys call it a X5678-3892-1900A, would you call it a Widget or a X5678-3892-1900A? Seriously, it is hilarious how everyone seems to feel they are entitled to define and name a product they had no hand in creating. Which reminds me, you know that Van Gogh painting, "The Starry Night?", I think we should all call it "Swirly Blue Shapes With Yellow Circles", cause that's what it really is... Who cares what Van Gogh decided to call it, he just painted it, after all...

OK, lets call it a Carrera. Thats what it says on the CO (Certificate of Origin) from Porsche and the back of the car. Oh, wait. It says 911 on the brochure from Porsche. Wait, it has 996.xxx.xxx part numbers... Wait, is it a car? Is it a plane? Is it Superstupid M758? YES, lets call it M758!

M758, return to the 944 forum. You obviously do not belong here. Enjoy your 88 944 Turbo S (woooo, I am scared, Turbo S).

John Murray- that cracked me up. Good one. Regards. Mike

[quote]Originally posted by M758: <strong> Correct!... When talking about 911's remember the Porsche Type number designation. 356 was Engineering Project # 356. Most Porsche specifc parts on this car probably bore the 356.xxx. part number. The 911 was to be known as the 901, put Puegot has a copyright on x0x car designation so 901 was out. Then then went to 911. 911's contained parts with the 901.xxx.xxxx prefix or teh 911.xxx.xxx prefix. Cars built after the orginal 2.0L car still bore this 911 prefix since they are merely upgrades on the original design. From 1963 to 1989 the 911.xxx (or 901.xxx) part numbers existed on the car. Nearly all of the parts are transferable among the model years and no signifacnt upgrades were made except for incremental engine upgrades. Thoughout those years the FACTORY designation of the cars reamain 911 even through some were wore Carrera, Super Carrera, 911S, 911T, 911L, 911E, 911RS badges. The 912 I thing you will all agree is not 911, but curiously has 85% of the parts. Only major difference was the 356 motor. Of course the factory called them 912 because they were different. Even the 911 Turbo (Factory designation 930) was considered not a 911 and carried the 930 internal tag. Clearly the 964 is not a 911 since it carries the 964 internal tag and the factory guys clearly knew with the number of differnt parts it could not be a "911" any more. The marketing guys called a 911 to keep the public happy. Again the 993 was not a 911 as the factory did not call it such. The 993 and 964 are debatable as 911's since they carry a differenct factory designation, but are still 911's in many important ways. In general they do not stray too far from their parent tree and still use many 911.xxx part numbers. The 996 is a 911 in spirt only. There are no shared parts with the 63-89 cars that I am aware of. If there are please let me know. All of these radical modifications go beyond where I can call the car a 911. Quite honestly the 911 needed to die. A car that was great for 1963 can no longer stand high in 2002 so changes had to be made. They were made as they should be. What irritates me is that some persist in calling these new breed of cars 911's when thay model of cars is dead. The the updated interior and watercooled motor were required to keep-up in the market. Unfortuanty Porsche should have changed the name of the car as they did when they dropped the 356 designation and when with 901 for their new 6 cylinder car. Other car companies such as GM and FORD can and do pull the wool over peoples eyes, by naming current cars those of parts greatness simply to sell more cars. I used to think Porsche was above this, but clearly they are not. The 911 was never a car type... but a proper factory designation. The NAME Carrera can be applied to the 996 as is follows that lineage and Carrera is just a name. As for the 944. Yes it started life as VW/Audi Project EA425. There is historical precident for Porsche build their cars from other platforms. Take 356 for example that evolved from the lowely VW beatle. The basicly layout of the VW bealtle still remains today in the 996. In fact the NEW Beatle not made by VW, but by Porsche as the 996! The 924/944/951/968 cars all carry various part number from 477.xxx for 924 sourced parts to 944.xxxx parts to 951.xxx parts to 968.xxx parts to 928.xxx part. Even some 999.xxx part that are shared with the 911 of the day. What I do not understand is how Sensitive you guys are about your "911". All I state is that you drive the 996 not a 911. I did not make any comments about the performance or quailty of you cars nor question the "Porscheness" of you cars. In fact I said that I think you drive fine cars. My only point is that these are not 911s anymore. You guys then go apesh$t over it and disrespect my 944s. Wow that is Mature Behavior! </strong><hr></blockquote> I was almost with you, but in the end, I disagree. As you point out, the original 911 was Type 901. "911" therefore, was and is a name and is therefore equally appropriate when applied to type numbers 901, 964, 993 and 996. If a 996 driver doesn't drive a 911, then nobody does, because the type number isn't connected to the designation "911" in any case.

viken-- PLEASE close this topic! <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson: <strong> I was almost with you, but in the end, I disagree. As you point out, the original 911 was Type 901. "911" therefore, was and is a name and is therefore equally appropriate when applied to type numbers 901, 964, 993 and 996. If a 996 driver doesn't drive a 911, then nobody does, because the type number isn't connected to the designation "911" in any case.</strong><hr></blockquote> That fair and insightfull response! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> So are there any cars with 911.xxx.xxx part numbers? Or are these 901.xxx.xxx? Thank you!

I think we will just have to live with the fact that one guy (M739284 or whatever) does not consider our cars 911's, where as everybody else does... I think I can manage not to lose even 0.03 nanoseconds of sleep over that.

<img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

<img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

<img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> ah' glorious sleep!!!!!

&lt;&lt;Porsche needs to change to a mid engine layout for future race/street cars. I do not know how much longer they can fight physics with engine located where it is. Honestly a SUPER boxster is really required to take on the best in the world.&gt;&gt; Porsche engineers obviously agree with this sentiment, since the 2003 "flagship" street car (the forthcoming Carrera GT) will have a mid-mounted V-10 engine.

<img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

I think the 911 is not dead.. just that other car manufactures have caught up.. and how can you compare cars like impreza WRX/Mitsu Evo to 996, yes, they might be catching up to 996 performance wise but how do they match up with 996TT? they are cars in different class and markets. And, that 996 or 993 isnt 911 nonsense, i do respect your opinion.. but things do evolve for betterness. Maybe if they had kept the same name all these years, you wouldnt be thinkin this way. But if it did keep the same name, maybe ppl would not be collecting those older cars, because in a way, it's the same? "yea i have 5 911's from different decades" geez that just sound stupid haha..IMO. Comparing the M3 is okay, but the M3 isn't faster than the 996 whether straightline line or on track; it's just cheaper, but if the price is the same as 996, would ppl buy it??..

Geez...I was gone for 4 days (wedding in Washington, DC... and some of you are still arguing the point. There are 944xxxxxxxxparts in a 911 And what about the 2000 Millenium car THAT HAS A FACTORY 911 BADGE ON THE REAR. It's within the 996 series and has a 911 badge. Case closed IMHO

And lastly, ladies and gentlemen, the TSB's that come out for the various vehicles that Porsche manufactures refer to the vehicle in question in their title as, (and I quote) "911-(996)" The factory calls the 996 (and called the 993 in their TSB's as well) 911s. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Just so I can hang with the cool <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> guys. <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" /> I feel a lot more mature now.