Anybody ordered a 991 GTS... - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I'm seriously thinking about it as an everyday car, just curious if anybody else is? My spec so far is: Sapphire Blue Black Turbo S wheels PDK Leather interior Park assist front and rear Cruise Telephone prep Tempted by glass sunroof D.

tough market now at that price AMG GT and the new P13 with the R8 round the corner I think the 991 would come last in cars I would want to own out of those 4. esp with the Face life due out next year. depends if you need 4 seats I guess. the AMG GT looks a nice place to sit.

All of those have 2 seats so are useless to me.

How much better is the 991 compared to the 997 when it comes to rear legroom? I think it's a joke really; i tried it once with adults in the rear and since then have borrowed a car if needed more than 2 people, so i basically have a 2 seater. Which brings me to the Cayman GTS - i'd rather one of those as it is a better car than the 991 and with the money saved you could get a Golf GTI as a daily hack. I also agree that the GTS for the money is not top of the class. I wouldn't spent £120k on a car when a facelift is on the horizon.

hondansx said: How much better is the 991 compared to the 997 when it comes to rear legroom? I think it's a joke really; i tried it once with adults in the rear and since then have borrowed a car if needed more than 2 people, so i basically have a 2 seater. Which brings me to the Cayman GTS - i'd rather one of those as it is a better car than the 991 and with the money saved you could get a Golf GTI as a daily hack. I also agree that the GTS for the money is not top of the class. I wouldn't spent £120k on a car when a facelift is on the horizon. As I have already said I need a 4 seat car, my two young kids fit in the back of a 911 no problem. So why would I consider a Cayman GTS. And a 991 GTS is not £120k, my spec is £96k before discount. And name one other car that can transport 2 kids that comes close to the level of driving enjoyment at GTS will give? No, I didn't think you could.

I like the look of that spec. (I need people to buy these new, so I stand a chance of getting a decent used one later on.)

I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs?

DMC2 said: As I have already said I need a 4 seat car, my two young kids fit in the back of a 911 no problem. So why would I consider a Cayman GTS. And a 991 GTS is not £120k, my spec is £96k before discount. And name one other car that can transport 2 kids that comes close to the level of driving enjoyment at GTS will give? No, I didn't think you could. The 991 is an incredibly practical car really. Even though the rear seats are only suitable to house kids, having a back seat is so handy for chucking stuff on when jumping in the car. I really missed the back seats when I had a Caymen. The spec that you've gone for there sounds lovely.

Needing the extra seats as well I have also toyed with buying a 991. A carrera would be my price limit, I had always decided to wait for gen2-hoping for improved steering/niggles sorted etc. With rumours of turbos etc, I'm thinking a well discounted run out gen1 might be best.

Needing the extra seats as well I have also toyed with buying a 991. A carrera would be my price limit, I had always decided to wait for gen2-hoping for improved steering/niggles sorted etc. With rumours of turbos etc, I'm thinking a well discounted run out gen1 might be best.

DMC2 said: I'm seriously thinking about it as an everyday car, just curious if anybody else is? My spec so far is: Sapphire Blue Black Turbo S wheels PDK Leather interior Park assist front and rear Cruise Telephone prep Tempted by glass sunroof D. I would hold tight for the Gen 2 now mate.

Carl_Docklands said: I would hold tight for the Gen 2 now mate. 991 Gen 2 deliveries start Dec 2015 at the earliest, I've got one ordered for March 2016 so I will run the GTS for 16 months.

going with approved pre-owned TTS...not enough GT in the GTS...

DMC2, I thought the GTS was the first of the the face lift models? (According to my local dealer) Is that not Gen 2 for the 991 or am I missing something?

SnoopD said: DMC2, I thought the GTS was the first of the the face lift models? (According to my local dealer) Is that not Gen 2 for the 991 or am I missing something? The GTS is the roll out model at the end of the 991 Gen 1 lifespan, the gen 2 will be displayed late 2015.

Looks a lovely spec. I would go for the glass roof ... and definitely not black wheels. The silver wheels against the blue paint will look awesome.

toohuge said: Looks a lovely spec. I would go for the glass roof ... and definitely not black wheels. The silver wheels against the blue paint will look awesome. Unfortunately if you choose the TurboS wheels they only come in black. I would probably get them painted titanium by the OPC before delivery.

BMCG said: going with approved pre-owned TTS...not enough GT in the GTS... good choice, you won't regret it

mrdemon said: Just saw a camouflaged Merc GT at the Ring and it really looks very pretty.

Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well

I'm toying with the same idea.... I will buy the 992 so it's a case of wait out or buy a GTS. Lovely though the Merc is I wouldn't buy one because it's built by Mercedes. Worst customers service I have ever experienced, so it's out of the question for me.

Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well £5k high on a £95-100k car? I don't think so. I got around £9k off my Cayman R. Off topic but I'm toying with the idea of getting an RS Q3 at the moment - Have one for the day and it is pretty darn good - I'm amazed! Really tempted by 991 GTS though, might get one next year - the 997 was awesome, so I'd imagine the 991 will be pretty spectacular too. My ideal spec is £96k, just wondering how much I'd be able to negotiate off.

Wouldnt PDCC be a must have?

No, I would avoid pdcc. Opt for pasm sport instead. On top of your spec I would add if not already included in your build: -folding mirrors -tpms -digital radio -Memory and heated seats -red stitching and Rev counter to match calipers (if you want to be loud, platinum otherwise) -black ext styling package

mrdemon said: the AMG GT looks a nice place to sit. That interior looks horrific to my eyes. How many air vents do you need in a car! Drives my OCD mad.

Wurls said: Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well Care to PM me with your dealer's address? been offered a fraction of your claim

rosino said: No, I would avoid pdcc. Opt for pasm sport instead. On top of your spec I would add if not already included in your build: -folding mirrors -tpms -digital radio -Memory and heated seats -red stitching and Rev counter to match calipers (if you want to be loud, platinum otherwise) -black ext styling package Tpms is standard Why do you think pasm better choice than pdcc, also it lowers car by 20mm

rosino said: No, I would avoid pdcc. Opt for pasm sport instead. On top of your spec I would add if not already included in your build: -folding mirrors -tpms -digital radio -Memory and heated seats -red stitching and Rev counter to match calipers (if you want to be loud, platinum otherwise) -black ext styling package If you add folding mirrors you don't get the sport design mirrors which I really like. Tpms is standard. I never listen to the radio, so DAB would be a waste. I never use heated seats or move my seat position so don't need memory. Red stitching etc is over £2k, a waste of cash if you ask me. I also had it in my last GT3 and didn't particularly like it. As far as I'm aware there isn't a black styling pack option on the 991 GTS?

DMC2 said: If you add folding mirrors you don't get the sport design mirrors which I really like. Tpms is standard. I never listen to the radio, so DAB would be a waste. I never use heated seats or move my seat position so don't need memory. Red stitching etc is over £2k, a waste of cash if you ask me. I also had it in my last GT3 and didn't particularly like it. As far as I'm aware there isn't a black styling pack option on the 991 GTS? £2K for stitching? WTF????

Wurls said: Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well Care to PM me with your dealer's address? been offered a fraction of your claim Claim? Rather than questioning people on the web, you might want to pick the phone up. I thought so and yes I've done more than pick up the phone

I'm after one but I've struggled getting a reasonable discount. Tbh if I can't get a minimum £5k off i'll probably hold back . I've got a dealer calling me back tomorrow so fingers crossed.

Chipper said: I'm after one but I've struggled getting a reasonable discount. Tbh if I can't get a minimum £5k off i'll probably hold back . I've got a dealer calling me back tomorrow so fingers crossed. Please let me know how you get on.

DMC2 said: Chipper said: I'm after one but I've struggled getting a reasonable discount. Tbh if I can't get a minimum £5k off i'll probably hold back . I've got a dealer calling me back tomorrow so fingers crossed. Please let me know how you get on. +1

Callughan said: Wouldnt PDCC be a must have? A lot of people, especially the motoring press, have never liked PDCC.

Koln-RS said: Callughan said: Wouldnt PDCC be a must have? A lot of people, especially the motoring press, have never liked PDCC. Have it on my 991S but won't spec it again.

Just realised with my ideal spec on a 991 GTS and Cayman GTS there is a £30k difference between the cars. So I'm paying £30k to have two seats to transport my kids.... ouch.

Just realised with my ideal spec on a 991 GTS and Cayman GTS there is a £30k difference between the cars. So I'm paying £30k to have two seats to transport my kids.... ouch.

Ones a 911 though. This might seem daft, Are you not considering a M4/M6? Optioned up to the 9's?

eliotrw said: Ones a 911 though. This might seem daft, Are you not considering a M4/M6? Optioned up to the 9's? Ones a 911 and....? I doubt very much a 991 GTS is £30k more fun than a Cayman GTS. Having owned a Cayman S I think they are one of the best balanced cars ever built. And I've already got an M4 with ceramics.

Tony 1234 said: DMC2 said: Chipper said: I'm after one but I've struggled getting a reasonable discount. Tbh if I can't get a minimum £5k off i'll probably hold back . I've got a dealer calling me back tomorrow so fingers crossed. Please let me know how you get on. +1 No joy. One dealer didn't even bother to ring me back so I'll probably just hold back and have a look at the new AMG GT and Audi R8 before deciding.

Need more badges on your boot? Behold...

J-P said: Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well £5k high on a £95-100k car? I don't think so. I got around £9k off my Cayman R. Off topic but I'm toying with the idea of getting an RS Q3 at the moment - Have one for the day and it is pretty darn good - I'm amazed! Really tempted by 991 GTS though, might get one next year - the 997 was awesome, so I'd imagine the 991 will be pretty spectacular too. My ideal spec is £96k, just wondering how much I'd be able to negotiate off. Sure. 9k off a 50k car. U prolly got to spec it as well

HokumPokum said: J-P said: Tony 1234 said: Wurls said: SFO said: I wonder what sort of discounts are available on factory order 911 GTSs? I've been sniffing around. It seems about £5k at the moment but it's early days yet. £5k seems a bit high, hope that's not just 'forum' talk I'm looking for one as well £5k high on a £95-100k car? I don't think so. I got around £9k off my Cayman R. Off topic but I'm toying with the idea of getting an RS Q3 at the moment - Have one for the day and it is pretty darn good - I'm amazed! Really tempted by 991 GTS though, might get one next year - the 997 was awesome, so I'd imagine the 991 will be pretty spectacular too. My ideal spec is £96k, just wondering how much I'd be able to negotiate off. Sure. 9k off a 50k car. U prolly got to spec it as well I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe. PH is very annoying for complete strangers insisting you have no integrity and are in fact a complete liar. No it was a £60k car and although I didn't get to actually spec it - it did have the spec I wanted. Want to see the invoice now I suppose

exactly. when you post like that and expect to tell someone to walk in the opc and order a new car with substantial discounts without detailing why it was available nor the circumstances, what do you expect? You are not the first to have a discount nor will be the last but it depends on the circumstances. If the stars are aligned for you to negotiate that, good on you, but saying that it is to be expected in a public forum gives genuine buyers a false sense of general discounts available. I find that super irritating.

HokumPokum said: exactly. when you post like that and expect to tell someone to walk in the opc and order a new car with substantial discounts without detailing why it was available nor the circumstances, what do you expect? You are not the first to have a discount nor will be the last but it depends on the circumstances. If the stars are aligned for you to negotiate that, good on you, but saying that it is to be expected in a public forum gives genuine buyers a false sense of general discounts available. I find that super irritating. I didn't say that it was to be expected - you inferred that. My point was that asking for a £5k discount on a £100k car wasn't beyond the realm of possiblity if it's possible to get £9k off a £60k car. I'm not saying that you can even get £5k off a GTS, my response was to the suggestion that getting £5k off was a lot. Just before I bought the 997 GTS somebody got all of the dealership's front end margin off as a discount - I wasn't able to negotiate that but I knew it was possible and I only knew it because somebody posted on here that that's what they negotiated. So this helped me to get a discount on that car too. Most people I've met mistakenly believe that there are no discounts available on Porsches ever and this is completely wrong and should be challenged! I'm not sure why you should be irritated by somebody negotiating agood deal and letting a wide group know about it - ulitmately this helps anybody buying a car. Personally, I find it super irritating that somebody who doesn't know me feels perfectly at ease to cast aspersions on my character.

who said anything about your character and I personally don't care. anyway, in summary, it is POSSIBLE to get a MASSIVE discount. I don't disagree. I just disagree on not qualifying that statement.

HokumPokum said: who said anything about your character and I personally don't care. anyway, in summary, it is POSSIBLE to get a MASSIVE discount. I don't disagree. I just disagree on not qualifying that statement. Well I may be mis-interpreting your post, the written word is not very good at picking up nuances of language but this: Sure. 9k off a 50k car. U prolly got to spec it as well Seemed to imply that I was not telling the truth, which in turn implies that I'm therefore a liar, which if correctly interpreted means that you are casting aspersions on my character. However, the statement did not need qualifying because as I stated earlier I was merely responding to the suggestion that getting £5k off a £100k car was a lot - it isn't and the poster shouldn't be worried about asking for £5k or more off. He might not get it but he definitely won't if he doesn't ask.

Has anyone managed a relatively good discount on a new GTS?

Chipper said: Has anyone managed a relatively good discount on a new GTS? Not yet, I'm not in a position to order yet (and may not be at all) but my dealership seems willing to enter into a negotiation but has stated that supply is now less than it was when I bought my GTS i.e. don't expect as much.

Same here. My dealer says he will only see 2 before the end of the year. However, there does seem to some room for manoeuvre, I just don't know what that is yet....

I see there is £696 discount at Broadspeed on a 2GTS, I'm looking to place an order this month got an LOI in

Love the camera work in the Autocar review video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXESEHEcNa4 Summary is what many have said, its a great drive but its too expensive for what it offers. £120K used to be Turbo S money.....

Should be in the showrooms soon I'd have thought?

Tony 1234 said: Should be in the showrooms soon I'd have thought? one at Westfield if you are keen...

Hi there PH. Long-time lurker, first-time poster who'd love some advice. I've just ordered a 991 GTS. Put the deposit down just before Christmas. It's a PDK cab (I live in London and like to make the most of good weather) and I'm going to PEC Silverstone in January to drive the 2 and 4WD GTSes back to back and decide which I prefer. Road testing has been inconclusive! I like the feeling of instant turn-in the 'traditional' RWD provides, but the grip with the 4 is unreal. It's like the laws of physics have been left outside the car. Also, I'm wondering about the interaction of PDCC with the different drivetrains. Some reviews (I have read probably an unhealthy number of reviews) seem to suggest the PDCC + RWD can be a bit scary when it does finally let go and that the AWD might alleviate that. The cars I've test driven didn't have PDCC, but I think it might be something I'd like so...does anyone have any thoughts about/experience of 2WD and 4WD with and without PDCC? I'm leaning towards choosing between a cheaper, more 'traditional' 911, with RWD and no PDCC, and a total grip-monster with AWD+PDCC. If it helps I'm probably a medium-advanced road driver and likely to track the car once a year or possibly never if I get precious... Thanks! Also, I know we all like car pictures here so here are a couple of my outgoing steed - a 2010 Boxster S. I'll try a couple more tomorrow when there's a bit more light. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

MagicRat said: Hi there PH. Long-time lurker, first-time poster who'd love some advice. I've just ordered a 991 GTS. Put the deposit down just before Christmas. It's a PDK cab (I live in London and like to make the most of good weather) and I'm going to PEC Silverstone in January to drive the 2 and 4WD GTSes back to back and decide which I prefer. Road testing has been inconclusive! I like the feeling of instant turn-in the 'traditional' RWD provides, but the grip with the 4 is unreal. It's like the laws of physics have been left outside the car. Also, I'm wondering about the interaction of PDCC with the different drivetrains. Some reviews (I have read probably an unhealthy number of reviews) seem to suggest the PDCC + RWD can be a bit scary when it does finally let go and that the AWD might alleviate that. The cars I've test driven didn't have PDCC, but I think it might be something I'd like so...does anyone have any thoughts about/experience of 2WD and 4WD with and without PDCC? I'm leaning towards choosing between a cheaper, more 'traditional' 911, with RWD and no PDCC, and a total grip-monster with AWD+PDCC. If it helps I'm probably a medium-advanced road driver and likely to track the car once a year or possibly never if I get precious... Thanks! Also, I know we all like car pictures here so here are a couple of my outgoing steed - a 2010 Boxster S. I'll try a couple more tomorrow when there's a bit more light. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. My 2p having not driven a 991 in any guise, I'd go for the RWD car. Modern 911s are so capable and grippy, IMO opinion the last thing you need is even higher limits before you can explore the capabilities of the car

MagicRat said: Hi there PH. Long-time lurker, first-time poster who'd love some advice. I've just ordered a 991 GTS. Put the deposit down just before Christmas. It's a PDK cab (I live in London and like to make the most of good weather) and I'm going to PEC Silverstone in January to drive the 2 and 4WD GTSes back to back and decide which I prefer. Road testing has been inconclusive! I like the feeling of instant turn-in the 'traditional' RWD provides, but the grip with the 4 is unreal. It's like the laws of physics have been left outside the car. Also, I'm wondering about the interaction of PDCC with the different drivetrains. Some reviews (I have read probably an unhealthy number of reviews) seem to suggest the PDCC + RWD can be a bit scary when it does finally let go and that the AWD might alleviate that. The cars I've test driven didn't have PDCC, but I think it might be something I'd like so...does anyone have any thoughts about/experience of 2WD and 4WD with and without PDCC? I'm leaning towards choosing between a cheaper, more 'traditional' 911, with RWD and no PDCC, and a total grip-monster with AWD+PDCC. If it helps I'm probably a medium-advanced road driver and likely to track the car once a year or possibly never if I get precious... Thanks! Also, I know we all like car pictures here so here are a couple of my outgoing steed - a 2010 Boxster S. I'll try a couple more tomorrow when there's a bit more light. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. That 991 is going to make a nice upgrade. As for the drivetrain, ask yourself if you'd prefer your Boxster to be AWD? P.S. Welcome

My 991S has PDCC and I would not spec it again, cannot notice it in everyday motoring IMO, lots of track use may be different.

Thanks for the welcome and the quick replies. All of interest. I've had a great time with the Boxster and never wished it to be anything other than what it is, but this piece from the RAC is interesting http://www.rac.co.uk/buying-a-car/car-reviews/pors... It, like Evo, comes down in favour of the 4 being not necessarily the better 911 historically, but the better 991. When I road tested them back to back, in the dry, I was definitely faster in the 4 (but did also drive it second, so knew the route). Some of the added cornering ability I perceived may have been due to the wider track, which the RWD GTS will also have. And hopefully the cars there will have PDCC (I've requested it...). I think I can remember the feel of the non-PDCC cars so it will be interesting if I notice a difference. It's daft to pay for anything I can't feel, but the plan is for this car to be a long-term keeper, and I don't want to be driving it for years thinking 'what would it be if it had x?' Reason for long-term planning, and buying into the 911 now, is mostly that the rumours of turbos scare me. It might be because I also ride bikes and so am used to very quick throttle response, but I just don't like that sort of FI (superchargers are fine - had a very entertaining blast in a V8 F-Type a bit ago). Even when I drove the Turbo S at PEC, I was awed by it but didn't find myself desperately wanting one. I feel that even if this isn't the last generation of NA 911, it's very close and so now is the time. Hence the importance of getting it right! Please do shout with any further thoughts. I'll report back when I've been to Silverstone...

You are not the only one having concerns about the next gen being turbo charged. I was intending on waiting on a gen2, hoping it would maybe have the criticisms improved,ie steering. However it seems the gts models may remain NA, perhaps like the macan & cayenne gts.

I have also ordered a 991 gts and am also chipping in a boxster s. I've ordered rwd manual ceramics and not the pdcc.

The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version. I would try both and not worry too much about the PDCC I think the car is good with or without it. If you are doing motorway miles/euro trip its probably better with it and 4WD. No motorway miles, mostly london centric miles and some track work then 2WD and no PDCC.

Carl_Docklands said: The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version. I'm confused by this. Surely directing torque through the front wheels only serves to exacerbate the problem of steering feel by corrupting it? Though the feeling of small amounts of torque steer might be misinterpreted as friction changes, it's not.

Interesting points. I'd heard that the facelift GTS might stay NA too - I hope so. Re the steering feel, I did prefer the weightier feel of the 4, but both cars were equipped with PSP, which (for me) gave the 2 no feel whatsoever. Hoping the PEC cars will be different. As far as usage goes it'll be everything. I live in London but drive to and around Sussex regularly and it will also see European work (to give an example, when I bought the Boxster I told my insurance I'd do 5,000 miles a year because the bike was my main mode of transport. Let's just say I was calling them with a correction pretty soon.) I've heard different things about the steering (and 7-MT) in the GTS. A number of reviews say they both feel tighter and better, but the official word from Porsche is that they're the same as in the S. I wonder if... I just wonder... Like, if I was in charge at Porsche (and I'm definitely the first person on any forum to have begun a mental sentence like this), I wonder if there might be a case for tweaking those things and just... saying we hadn't. They were the two biggest perceived problems with the 991, and if fettled would make a better car, which would make GTS buyers happy and steal a march on developing the facelift model. Saying we'd done those things, though, could be seen as tantamount to admitting they were problems in the first place, which would not be good PR. That said, practice and placebo are pretty strong effects, so the reviewers reported 'improvements' could easily be wishful thinking or just the fact that they had driven more 991s and the 997 was further back in their memory. But I still wonder...

MagicRat said: and I don't want to be driving it for years thinking 'what would it be if it had x?' Which was my thought exactly when choosing my spec, but having lived with it since March 2012 and driven cars without it I wouldn't bother again

Tony 1234 said: MagicRat said: and I don't want to be driving it for years thinking 'what would it be if it had x?' Which was my thought exactly when choosing my spec, but having lived with it since March 2012 and driven cars without it I wouldn't bother again The problem with PDCC (and I had two cars with it) is that there is (or maybe was if they have fixed it) some sort of glitch with it. In long, fast corners it would sometimes give the sensation of snap over steer. It was only occasional but bloody scary when it happened. A number of other owners with PDCC, including Guillaume B off here, had the same issue.

Nimerino said: Carl_Docklands said: The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version. I'm confused by this. Surely directing torque through the front wheels only serves to exacerbate the problem of steering feel by corrupting it? Though the feeling of small amounts of torque steer might be misinterpreted as friction changes, it's not. Torque through the front is only going to kick in once you get slippage which, is rare on the road. I define feel as per my own benchmarks in the 987.2 Boxster and 997.2 Turbo - in a straight line, you can feel the road through your hands unlike almost any other car, it is re-assuring as much as it is nerve racking. Although I think both cars are completely different drives in terms of handling they are both wedded by this common trait. In my experience the 991 2S filters out this noise to give the driver more confidence and the 991 4S re-introduces some of it, some say its due to the additional mechanical running gear at the front of the car, some say its due to a slight software change because of it, but there it is. Whether it bothers you or not depends on your sensitivity to it. 991 - Its like slipping on a condom.... (because its safer and you don't need all the feel anyway) .....or maybe not. Ignoring cost as a factor, the 991 GTS4 coupe would have pretty much all the answers for a young family and I can see its appeal. The risk is that Porsche pull out a cracker with the Generation 2 model with a slightly revised steering system, giving buyers remorse for those that are not 100% sold on the current car. For the cost, I think you have to be 100% with this one and this is why I think people are cautious about this late model car and its not generating much excitement, even though you can't buy a GT3, whereas the last 997 GTS thread was 100 pages long and their was not a GT3 fiasco, pretty much anyone who wanted one got one.

I would be pretty confident that the manual box has been improved on the gts. The steering may also be better. After all it's only "software" . I'd also guess the standard cars have them as well, its just the journalists probably aren't testing them now. There would be precious little people who have driven a 2015 spec manual carrera. I have my name down for a gt4, though a 991 would be more practical for every day driving (family etc). I'm hanging back to see what spec/price will be & what transpires with the next gen 991. Apologies for going off topic a bit!

Carl_Docklands said: 991 - Its like slipping on a condom.... (because its safer and you don't need all the feel anyway) .....or maybe not. This actually made me laugh out loud, but writing LOL feels incommensurate with my age. I will declare an interest in that I own a 97 GTS, which was bought after extensively test-driving it against a 991 C2S; for me the 997 was/is wonderful, the 991 was not. I think there's less debate about the new car because whereas the 997, and by extension its derivatives, were universally considered to be great cars, this hasn't held true for the 991. Let's face it, those who buy a late-model 991 just before the arrival of the updated car are likely to be enthusiasts who have a vested interest in specific aspects of the outgoing car, whether it's the hydraulic steering and the narrower front track (as it was for me) or naturally aspirated engines (as is likely the case with the 991 GTS). I think the final paragraph of your post is quite telling, in that it is pragmatic about the appeal of a 991 C4GTS, whereas the simple fact that the 997 was great to drive seemed to be enough to justify purchasing one, and the rest was man-logic. However, it remains to be seen if Porsche has actually interpreted the market far better than I, and thus sells boat-loads of the new GTS. It wouldn't surprise me.

Interesting thread. I bought one of the last manual 997 GTS cars in October 2011. A good discount because OPC wanted to shift metal and make way for the 991. It replaced a 997.1 Turbo and (for me at least) the GTS is a far better car. I recently considered replacing with a 991 GTS but have to ask: is it really worth spending another £45k for an equivalent spec? I suppose I need to test drive the new GTS as I've only driven a 991 S, but was not impressed with the steering, the artificial exhaust noise piped into the car and the truly awful electronic handbrake! Actually not that keen on the internal layout where Porsche try to cram more info in the five dials making the side pods are difficult to read. I doubt whether the 997 GTS will appreciate in value like some earlier models, but prices are edging up - only three manual cars currently on PistonHeads from £59k to £62 and that's an increase of around £8k - £10k in the last 12 months. A new 991 GTS will drop five figures as soon as you drive out of the showroom.

Taste is a funny thing. I actually had a 997 GTS 4 for a little while and didn't get on with it. It was my first 911 and also a cab (I understand the difference between coupe and cab on the 997 to have been greater than on the 991). I found it felt heavier and a bit vague compared with the Boxster. I liked the 991s I've driven much more, but probably for reasons that people who have driven more 911s through history don't like them - refinement, comfort, actually *not* having such a sensation of a very heavy thing hanging out the back. I think I'm probably prime 991 target-market material (consider a drop-top essential in a sports car, can't be bothered to operate a clutch). That said, the Boxster has just taken me on a lengthy voyage around much of southern England and made it pretty hard to imagine how I could enjoy another car more. I feel less like I'm driving it and more like I just am it if that makes any sense. Finally, a couple of people have said that PDCC is worthwhile if one does a lot of motorways. Is there a noticeable improvement in straight-line comfort? And, post-finally, a happy New Year to one and all. Let's be safe, treat other road users with kindness and enjoy our driving in 2015.

The options that Porsche (and the industry as a whole) have added to cars recently haven't been added for the sake of it. PDCC, PSV, PTV, PDK and every other inane acronym out there do broaden the appeal of the car. Though the selection bias on this board would have us all believe otherwise, most people who buy these cars desire every aid to comfort and speed that they can get. For the rest of us, we can pick and choose these options to create a car that gels with our driving style. I'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options. The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board. People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more.

Nimerino said: The options that Porsche (and the industry as a whole) have added to cars recently haven't been added for the sake of it. PDCC, PSV, PTV, PDK and every other inane acronym out there do broaden the appeal of the car. Though the selection bias on this board would have us all believe otherwise, most people who buy these cars desire every aid to comfort and speed that they can get. For the rest of us, we can pick and choose these options to create a car that gels with our driving style. I'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options. The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board. People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more. Good post

Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead.

pete a said: Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead. Exactly what I did in the end. And my Cayman GTS spec was £40k less than the 991!!!! With the only real benefit for me being the two rear seats. But I can buy a Golf R with the difference!

pete a said: Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead. Exactly what I did in the end. And my Cayman GTS spec was £40k less than the 991!!!! With the only real benefit for me being the two rear seats. But I can buy a Golf R with the difference!

pete a said: Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead. Bingo... This was my thought process when changing from my 997 GTS to Cayman GTS.

pete a said: Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead. We're skiing off piste here, but I totally agree with this comment. The 911 has a kind of iconic status, but the Cayman drives better; a little slower in a straight line, but we all grow up eventually and stop measuring performance in tenths of a second. It's a perfectly balanced car - Steve Sutcliffe's Autocar review sums it up perfectly: "If I was going have one sports car for the rest of time, I honestly think this might be it. It's that good, it's amazing." And at current prices you can almost do a straight swap with the 997 GTS.

pete a said: Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead. And this is the problem, isn't it? Eradicate the traits that are unique to the 911, dilute the experience of the car moving about underneath you, reduce the differentiation between the 991 and the 981, create an artificial stratification in the range by neutering the Cayman, and sooner or later people will wake up to the fact that a mid-engined car has inherently better balance. If there's little or no 911-ness to justify buying a 911, why not get one of the best sports cars of its generation? Also, it's a truism that the 981 has, in general, better reviews in the press with fewer caveats than the majority of the 991 range. At £20k less, the competition isn't as unforgiving.

I suppose it comes down to taste again. The 981 is certainly better value than the 991, but then diminishing marginal returns feature in the consideration of pretty much all consumer goods. And the extra 35k does buy an extra 47bhp/tonne (Cayman GTS vs 991 GTS coupe, figures from Porsche website), the back seats and a more luxurious feel. I drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air.

MagicRat said: I suppose it comes down to taste again. The 981 is certainly better value than the 991, but then diminishing marginal returns feature in the consideration of pretty much all consumer goods. And the extra 35k does buy an extra 47bhp/tonne (Cayman GTS vs 991 GTS coupe, figures from Porsche website), the back seats and a more luxurious feel. I drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air. Agreed

MagicRat said: and a more luxurious feel I'm curious how you think the 991 is more luxurious than the Cayman GTS? The interiors and kit are identical.

DMC2 said: I'm curious how you think the 991 is more luxurious than the Cayman GTS? The interiors and kit are identical. TBH - I can understand the angle - its not about the kit or the quality of materials - I think its an ambience thing. 991 coupe is more GT-like now - longer wheelbase gives a more relaxed idea and high speed stability. More room in the cabin - making it more airy. 981 is more sports car - slightly smaller inside vs the 991 - engine is right behind your head.

Space = luxury If you're an American anyway.

TDT said: 981 is more sports car - slightly smaller inside vs the 991 - engine is right behind your head. Of course, no matter the market repositioning, some might argue the 911 should be as much a sports car (or sports coupé, albeit with the benefit of 2+2 seating) as the Cayman. In comparison to its contemporary peers, the 991 feels no smaller to me, whereas the 997 did, and most of those competitors have far more pronounced GT aspirations.

Have test driven and ordered a 911 GTS this week (March delivery) and having had a Cayman in the past didn't even consider looking at one again . Cayman is great sports car very tactile and responsive but I found it tiresome and noisy especially on longer trips. 911 is just a bigger car and more comfortable , I've had a 997 carrera 4 for last 9 months and that has convinced me that 911 is way to go for me. Mine should look like this Bit annoying that to get a leather dash costs you£4,468

I've also always WANTED to like the Cayman more than the 911.. But every time I drove both I came away thinking the 911 was the car I always wanted. Maybe in the last generation a bit less so but when I drove the C GTS compared to my 991 S the lesser power was kind of obvious.. which in everyday world would be largely irrelevant I agree, but for those fleeting moments where you can really open it up on a mountain pass you really want the car which will make your stomach turn that little more..

That car looks awesome! Care to share what options you specced it with?

I wish.....though I saw on the Porsche stand at Autosports a white 911 GTV with aero kit & rear clear light option which looked very nice. Probably one of the cars that stood out at the show

MagicRat said: That car looks awesome! Care to share what options you specced it with? Not my car in photo but spec ordered N0 GQ 636 250 435 027 088 342 454 581 P05 X69 619 680 T93 Individual equipment Agate Grey Metallic Black leather i.c.w Carmine Red alcantara package GTS ParkAssist front and rear Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) 20-inch 911 Turbo S wheels, painted in Black Instrument dials in Carmine Red GTS interior package Heated seats Electric folding mirrors Cruise control Luggage net passenger footwell Sports seats Plus (4-way, electric) Carbon door sill guards Exclusive Preparation for mobile phone BOSE® Surround Sound System Porsche Vehicle Tracking System (VTS) Any comments welcome as order locked on 15th Jan Sold my 997 tonight over phone after4 hours on autotrader (sorry must try pistonheads next time ) for £1500 more than dealer offered (it is a perfect pampered car so buyer is lucky) so will just have to put up with sharing wife's golf R for few weeks which isn't that bad but we have decided to get fake exhaust sound on golf turned off Asap and I have a friend who can remap golf to 370 bhp so may be fun!

You've got a nice order there for a GTS. I was thinking of ordering the Cab version. It was a tough call but I went for the Turbo in the end. I think the standard spec of the GTS is impressive & the sports exhaust will sound cool. Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol Enjoy your new toy ?? Edited by SnoopD on Sunday 11th January 17:24

SnoopD said: You've got a nice order there for a GTS. I was thinking of ordering the Cab version. It was a tough call but I went for the Turbo in the end. I think the standard spec of the GTS is impressive & the sports exhaust will sound cool. Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol Enjoy your new toy ?? Edited by SnoopD on Sunday 11th January 17:24 I am sure Turbo will be epic but just a bit too much money for me to justify to wife and having test driven GTS know power is fine for me and just liked feel of car and sounds are great though I didn't take it to the limit ( only 17 miles on clock and even though sales guy told me it was bench run in And I could do what I wanted with it I couldn't help thinking of next owner!) Just deleted electric folding mirrors as found out that means you don't get sport design version. Also would advise others to choose sport design steering wheel as nearly got that wrong as well - multi function steering wheel with all buttons sounds great but doesn't have right flappy paddles and looks wrong! Edited by GT3hopeful on Sunday 11th January 23:52

Right then. Report time. I’ve finally driven both the 2 and 4wd 991 GTSs at the PEC at Silverstone and am going to have a go at reporting back. The short version is I went for the 2wd car. The long version is below, if you want it, so get a cup of tea and read on. I got there late because of a tailback on the M1, but the centre was quiet and they were v accommodating, so I ended up driving both cars, back to back, for 45 minutes both before and after lunch. The conditions were about as slippery as they could be – pouring rain on a track that hadn’t been used for a month. It wasn’t quite an apples-to-apples comparison. The 2 was PDK and PDCC, the 4 manual and no PDCC. I said that I wanted to corner at road speeds before lunch (I’m buying this car probably 99% for the road) with a couple of fast, straight-line runs, and then press on a bit afterwards. We went in the 2 first, and my immediate thought was that the steering has definitely been improved for the GTS. It felt perfectly taut and weighted, better than my 987 Boxster and way better than the last 991 S I drove (though that had PSP). The car just felt absolutely right: pliant at low speed, ferocious on the way to redline and with ridiculous amounts of traction in between. It also had clear glass tail lights, which looked the business. If anyone is speccing a car I would advise at least a look at this option. Getting in the manual 4 reminded me that PDK is definitely what I want. It may be because the last stick-shift I drove for any length of time was an Iveco truck, but the lever felt very high to require as much force as it did to move, and I just prefer having my hands on the wheel all the time. And overall the car just felt slightly…less, especially (and possibly strangely) when flooring it in a straight line. There just felt to be a bit less urgency, which I’m sure can’t be due to the 50kg weight increase but may be a psychological effect of being pushed and pulled rather than just pushed (the drivetrain graphic showed about 50% power going to the front wheels under full beans). So I had a lovely lunch with Old Mother Rat (OMR maintains a keen interest in cars in spite of not being allowed to drive them anymore) thinking my mind was made up. And then the 2wd car bit me. I was asking for it. Getting on the gas too early and too hard out of an off-camber right-hand bend caused the back to step out with alarming speed and led to a fishtail/tankslapper most of the way down the back straight. I drove cautiously for the rest of the session and was ready to go faster and feel more secure in the 4. And I did. Feel more secure that is – it’s glued to the road and one can drive it like a fool and have it be fine. But I didn’t go faster. The car understeered if I went into bends at the same speed as in the 2, which meant that my overall speed was about the same. Instructor Alastair said this was partly because of the extra weight over the front of the car, but also because when the back begins to lose traction the front takes over and pulls the car forward but ‘some people like it because it’s more predictable’. I didn’t love the feeling of the front tyres going sideways over the tarmac, but I did have the memory of my ‘moment’ fairly high in my mind when I went back inside to watch OMR be taken for a few passenger laps. Ever-helpful Alastair then said I had time for one last quick go, and which car did I want? I took the 2 and decided immediately that it would be the one for me to 'take home', for all the reasons outlined above. Sure, it will punish bad driving more than the 4, but it will also reward good, and that to me seems like the point. The only question that remained was about PDCC. I think I’ve read every thread on the subject and still hadn’t made up my mind. The 2wd car with PDCC was as fast (in my extremely average hands) as the 4wd without it, in very wet weather indeed, which leads me to think that in the dry there would be quite a difference. And I preferred the feel of the 2, to which PDCC surely contributed. That said, Chris Harris and Evo, both of whose opinions I respect, said the car is better without. I was lucky enough this morning to discuss the matter with Colin Hoad of CAT Driver Training where I’ve done a couple of courses (highly recommended, btw). Colin is pretty much the UK’s leading expert on vehicle dynamics and said, in rather more eloquent and technical terms, something like: ‘I can understand why Chris Harris might not want it, but you’re not him.’ He was of the opinion that for a driving mortal, on the road, it would enhance enjoyment of the car. Once I’ve run it in I’m going to take it up to Colin for a day of coaching at Millbrook to see if I can get a little bit nearer to Harrisian levels of mastery. So the order’s gone in. The spec is as follows 991 GTS Cab, black metallic PDK PDCC LED headlights Clear tail lights Ducktail Burmester Heated and vented seats (because oh my god they literally have seats that blow air up your back. And it can be warm air. If you want.) Multifunction steering wheel (I fiddle unrelentingly with the stereo volume and have never got over the affront of having to take a hand off the wheel to do it. Planning to convert the wheel to paddles in due course). White instrument dials and clock Red seat belts A few extra leathery bits They’re saying March build for April delivery. Comments and questions welcome!

thanks for the report. did you consider the GTS interior pack ?

MagicRat said: Heated and vented seats (because oh my god they literally have seats that blow air up your back. And it can be warm air. If you want.) You said this and have yet to have the PistonHeads mob call you a sissy! Though it strikes me that the sense of childlike wonder you express is the only reason ever to get any option, as most, if not all of them, are indulgences. I want heated, vented seats now. Lovely car, I'm certain you'll enjoy it. In my opinion, however, perhaps you should reconsider PDCC and the MF wheel. Neither of us is Chris Harris, but as you grow accustomed to the behaviour of the car and get closer to its limits, the artificial intervention of the system will become more apparent. So in terms of shorter-term gratification, PDCC may be wonderful, but I feel it might restrict your enjoyment later, even limit the extent to which you can bond with the car. As for the wheel, the buttons are frankly infuriating, and remove so much of the tactility of the PDK. If you only ever drive in auto mode, then you might be nonplussed, but if you ever use the manual mode you may very well want to rip the steering wheel of the rack and eject it from the car. It might be easier to curb the compulsive volume-fiddling tendencies instead.

I don't think the full leather seats are a good option for GTS and you may need vented seats for the rare sunny days as leather will get sweaty. Much better to go with alcantara GTS pack and heated seats which are useful in UK winter even if it will cost you £1500 more than heated vented leather seats imo. Sport design steering wheel and mirrors are right choice if you want car to be in character.

Thanks for your thoughts, and glad the child-like glee attracted no name calling I did think about the GTS pack, but it looks weird with the MF wheel, and that's a non-negotiable for me, esp in the 991 where the gearstick's kind of in the way of the volume knob. I don't actually mind the buttons (aware that this may be PH sacrilege). Had them on the Boxster for almost 3 years and pressed away quite happily or just use the stick. I will get Techart to convert the wheel though - Alcantara-ise it and put paddles on - eventually. I was also a bit unsure about all the deviated stitching, red rev counter etc. I've had white dials in the Boxster and think I would find them more soothing to look at than red (disclosure: I may spend slightly more time doing things like meditating and going for very slow walks in the park than the average Porsche fan). Alcantara vs ventilated leather seats was a tough call, but on my trusty fantasy scale (which one have I been imagining having more) the vents take it. PDCC's the hardest call, but overall points in favour: It makes the car faster according to Herr Rohrl and others I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better) I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.) It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat. The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way. Obviously driving rwd cars with and without PDCC back to back would be ideal, but ultimately I made the call because the car I really liked on the day had it, and the idea of that whole package being mine was very appealing. Only sent the signed order form off today so obviously much more time to worry and fiddle with things!

MagicRat said: It makes the car faster according to Herr Rohrl and others I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better) I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.) It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat. The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way. I had PDCC on two 991s, I wouldn't have it again. Why? 1. It makes the car very fussy about tyre pressures. 2. It has (or had if they've now fixed it) a gremlin that gave the sensation of over steer with no warning in long, fast bends. Not funny. It was reported quite a bit by people who used the car on track. 3. It did some weird stuff from time to time, making adjustments for no apparent reason which could make you feel a bit motion sick. 4. I drove a lot of 991s with and without it and eventually decided that the cars without it just felt nicer and more natural. Oh and I ordered it (twice) because I'd specced a money no object car and wanted all the tech.

Eleven said: I had PDCC on two 991s, I wouldn't have it again. Why? 1. It makes the car very fussy about tyre pressures. 2. It has (or had if they've now fixed it) a gremlin that gave the sensation of over steer with no warning in long, fast bends. Not funny. It was reported quite a bit by people who used the car on track. 3. It did some weird stuff from time to time, making adjustments for no apparent reason which could make you feel a bit motion sick. 4. I drove a lot of 991s with and without it and eventually decided that the cars without it just felt nicer and more natural. Oh and I ordered it (twice) because I'd specced a money no object car and wanted all the tech. That's...really interesting and quite persuasive actually. Thanks for sharing. Can I ask what kind of driving you did in these cars, as in whether the non-PDCC felt better on road, track or both? I definitely got a snap-oversteer feeling at PEC. I did provoke the car, but it really went out from under me in a way that's never happened even on a track. I'm no Harris but I'm a reasonably proficient motorcyclist and I know a near-miss when I have one. Basically, I was trying to get the car to do a little slide and it did a lot more, which I think is what EVO were talking about in their last month's review of the GTS against the new AMG. We may be getting slightly off the strict GTS topic, I'd really appreciate any more information you (or anyone else who's driven a bunch of cars with and without PDCC) could give me about your experiences. It's starting to feel like a pretty major decision. Cheers.

Lots of talk about PDCC on here over years. Found this old thread with a quick search http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=112...

Magic919 said: Lots of talk about PDCC on here over years. Found this old thread with a quick search http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=112... Thanks. Had read that a few times and it was one of the things that made me come out in favour! Sigh...

MagicRat said: Magic919 said: Lots of talk about PDCC on here over years. Found this old thread with a quick search http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=112... Thanks. Had read that a few times and it was one of the things that made me come out in favour! Sigh... I started that thread (I used to be Manks). Whilst I stand by much of what I said, after I wrote that post I had a few months in a non-PDCC car and then went back to PDCC for a year or so. My first PDCC did indeed corner like it was on rails, but it also seemed to feel taut somehow like the chassis was under tension the whole time and the suspension was "crashy". I am not entirely sure that the PDCC was working correctly. The non-PDCC car felt like all the old 911s I'd driven, just better. I drove a non-PDCC car at PEC a couple of times and it was superb. My second PDCC car felt different. It was softer on the flat, but stiffened up in the corners. It did however exhibit the characteristics I mentioned above. It never actually snap over steered but many times I'd be cornering in a fast, long, sweeping bend and suddenly the car felt like the back end had stepped out. Some other people have described it as like a gust of wind catching the car. The other sensation (caused by cambers I think) was a bit like when you're a passenger in a car and the driver suddenly turns when you're not expecting it. It causes motion sickness. MagicRat said: That's...really interesting and quite persuasive actually. Thanks for sharing. Can I ask what kind of driving you did in these cars, as in whether the non-PDCC felt better on road, track or both? The honest answer is I did a lot of cruising about, mixed with hard A road driving. There were corners where the PDCC allowed me more confidence to corner faster. However in the final analysis I decided that whilst the PDCC was an asset when hooning, the gremlins it seemed to have annoyed me too much. I must stress that both my PDCC cars were early cars and they may have improved PDCC now. But I wouldn't buy it again in case they haven't! I would also say that whilst the video game handling of the PDCC was a hoot, there is something of the 911 lineage that is lost.

I had wondered where Manks had gone :-) I'd associated PDCC with Manks in my 'database'.

Magic919 said: I had wondered where Manks had gone :-) I'd associated PDCC with Manks in my 'database'. Sorry to have confused the system. I can confirm that I am now Eleven and have no PDCC (or a 991 for that matter). Please update.

Thanks Eleven. You also answered what was going to be my next question (though I suspected the answer already), which was 'have you driven many other 911s?'. Because I haven't, I'm not too bothered about lineage and am just looking for the car that I will enjoy the most. The video-game cornering sounds good, the gremlins less so! I would hope anything as serious as the thing letting go mid-corner would have been sorted out now we're at the GTS stage, but the press do say that even this car lacks feel with PDCC. I suspect they too have driven a lot of 991s, so maybe it just feels different and requires some recalibration, and inexperienced ol' me won't mind. Will continue to mull it over!

So I've booked my half-day, comes-with-the-new-car driving course at Silverstone for Wednesday morning, and I'm using a PDCC GTS and a non-PDCC S. They should be similar enough for a good comparison and a final decision to be made!

Went for the PDCC in the end. Drove a GTS with it back-to-back with an S without it and just preferred the flat-cornering feel. The instructor said she understood why some experienced 911-people might not like the feel of the system, but that most of her colleagues up there would spec it. It also seemed that the car didn't give up grip in a spikier way than the non-PDCC car, it just did so later, so more lateral G was in play, so it broke grip faster. I Was also struck by the difference between the S and the GTS in terms of engine and steering feel. I understood the powerkit to just add a bit to the top end but it can really be felt low down too. The other thing I've added to my spec is the GTS interior pack in silver. Thanks to whomever on here suggested considering it. Hopping between the two cars all morning, the GTS just felt a bit more special inside, and all the alcantara and deviated stitching probably had something to do with that. Can anyone shed any light on whether the 'silver' rev counter is the same as the standard grey one that Carreras come with? It looks very similar on the configurator. Either way it's fine - if I'm told it's silver and matches the car beautifully I'll probably believe it!

Magic919 said: Lots of talk about PDCC on here over years. Found this old thread with a quick search http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=112... God I remember that thread. Wish I'd shut up sooner!

LED headlights in black appear to have recently become available for GTS. Just in case anyone has an un-locked build and fancies them...