Heel'n toe in a 997 GT3 RS - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

...so how do you do it?? My approach is the literal keeping the toes on the brake pedal and rotating the lower heel onto the throttle to blip. I am very comfortable with it in a 996 GT3 or RS - whether on the track or on the road. The pedal position is super sweet and it works well (of course I could further improve my timing, but thats in the detail). I have found this really helps when braking on a damp / slippy surface to maintain a stable rear axle. However, my problem is that I cannot get used to it in a 997.2 RS. The throttle pedal is too low with respect to the brake pedal and I can't find the throttle with my heel when downshifting. If I try really hard to extend the heel downwards I end up doing a super blip that almost slams into the limiter. I find the lack of this ability makes me slower in the 997s and on my last outing on a slippy surface I kept getting a twitchy rear axle under harder braking. Is the solution: 1. keep practicing it will come 2. modify the pedal position e.g. I've read on rennlist that you can bolt a thicker plate on to the throttle pedal to 'raise' its height - although this should work, I am not confortable with making permanent changes to the pedals 3. change the approach to heel and toe - instead of using the heel, use the outside of the foot to blip the throttle whilst keeping the ball of the big toe on the brake. At the moment I am not used to this approach and my feet do not seem wide enough but perhaps wider shoes would help (e.g. some piloti shoes) Some informed views would be helpful. Thanks.

I use the outside of the foot method and only have size 7 feet. I agree that some cars are easier to H&T in due to pedal positioning, but I usually manage ok. Instead of raising the throttle pedal you could try adjusting the brake pedal slightly lower.

LaSource said: ...so how do you do it?? My approach is the literal keeping the toes on the brake pedal and rotating the lower heel onto the throttle to blip. I am very comfortable with it in a 996 GT3 or RS - whether on the track or on the road. The pedal position is super sweet and it works well (of course I could further improve my timing, but thats in the detail). I have found this really helps when braking on a damp / slippy surface to maintain a stable rear axle. However, my problem is that I cannot get used to it in a 997.2 RS. The throttle pedal is too low with respect to the brake pedal and I can't find the throttle with my heel when downshifting. If I try really hard to extend the heel downwards I end up doing a super blip that almost slams into the limiter. I find the lack of this ability makes me slower in the 997s and on my last outing on a slippy surface I kept getting a twitchy rear axle under harder braking. Is the solution: 1. keep practicing it will come 2. modify the pedal position e.g. I've read on rennlist that you can bolt a thicker plate on to the throttle pedal to 'raise' its height - although this should work, I am not confortable with making permanent changes to the pedals 3. change the approach to heel and toe - instead of using the heel, use the outside of the foot to blip the throttle whilst keeping the ball of the big toe on the brake. At the moment I am not used to this approach and my feet do not seem wide enough but perhaps wider shoes would help (e.g. some piloti shoes) Some informed views would be helpful. Thanks. ^ This. Or buy a 991 GT3/RS Edit. If you can't do 3 (ie it doesn't feel natural/instinctive) then you could modify the throttle pedal, I'm not sure if the throttle pedal is part of the FBW assembly, if it's not, modify it and buy another pedal come sale time. I have the same problem with my 964 RS's, here's my fix ......

Personally, in the past I have always used the technique you describe but I have since found it works better with a top-hinged throttle pedal. For a floor hinged throttle, I am finding that using the side of the ball of your foot for the blip is more effective. I need to practice in the GT3 more. Heel and toe was more fun in my old Elise and Alfa where you could just give the throttle a quick bang with your heel (because the throttles were top-hinged). Edited by braddo on Monday 26th January 11:03

LaSource said: ...so how do you do it?? My approach is the literal keeping the toes on the brake pedal and rotating the lower heel onto the throttle to blip. I am very comfortable with it in a 996 GT3 or RS - whether on the track or on the road. The pedal position is super sweet and it works well (of course I could further improve my timing, but thats in the detail). I have found this really helps when braking on a damp / slippy surface to maintain a stable rear axle. However, my problem is that I cannot get used to it in a 997.2 RS. The throttle pedal is too low with respect to the brake pedal and I can't find the throttle with my heel when downshifting. If I try really hard to extend the heel downwards I end up doing a super blip that almost slams into the limiter. I find the lack of this ability makes me slower in the 997s and on my last outing on a slippy surface I kept getting a twitchy rear axle under harder braking. Is the solution: 1. keep practicing it will come 2. modify the pedal position e.g. I've read on rennlist that you can bolt a thicker plate on to the throttle pedal to 'raise' its height - although this should work, I am not confortable with making permanent changes to the pedals 3. change the approach to heel and toe - instead of using the heel, use the outside of the foot to blip the throttle whilst keeping the ball of the big toe on the brake. At the moment I am not used to this approach and my feet do not seem wide enough but perhaps wider shoes would help (e.g. some piloti shoes) Some informed views would be helpful. Thanks. For me it was simply a case of practice, practice and more practice. My personal technique is to use the ball of my right foot on the brake and then roll the right side over to blip the throttle but I have to change this occasionally when I need to brake harder and apply more pressure to the brake....then I have to use my heel to blip the throttle. This may help..... http://www.rennline.com/Pedals-Fully-Adjustable/pr... On a related note, I used to have a VW Beetle (the proper one) with floor mounted pedals and I changed the throttle pedal to a skateboard wheel.....and that was s t for heel and toe work

Trev450 said: I use the outside of the foot method and only have size 7 feet. I agree that some cars are easier to H&T in due to pedal positioning, but I usually manage ok. Instead of raising the throttle pedal you could try adjusting the brake pedal slightly lower. Thanks. I'll look into it though recall reading somewhere that the pedals are no longer adjustable (apart from major surgery/bolt ons/etc)

braddo said: Personally, in the past I have always used the technique you describe but I have since found it works better with a top-hinged throttle pedal. For a floor hinged throttle, I am finding that using the side of the ball of your foot for the blip is more effective. I need to practice in the GT3 more. Heel and toe was more fun in my old Elise and Alfa where you could just give the throttle a quick bang with your heel (because the throttles were top-hinged). Edited by braddo on Monday 26th January 11:03 I have used both the 996s and an e39 M5 with floor hinged throttles and both are very easy for the 'heel' technique. However it seems for the 997s Porsche used a different set of development drivers. Maybe Walter was busy that day

Slippydiff said: ^ This. Or buy a 991 GT3/RS Edit. If you can't do 3 (ie it doesn't feel natural/instinctive) then you could modify the throttle pedal, I'm not sure if the throttle pedal is part of the FBW assembly, if it's not, modify it and buy another pedal come sale time. I have the same problem with my 964 RS's, here's my fix ...... Ha! I must admit I did start to realise why the 991 GT3 is likely to be so much quicker with less to worry about in the footwell! Having said that I love the challenge of learning this in a manual and therefore its no no to a PDK box for now. At the moment it does not feels natural with the other approach. It feels like I am going to have to learn all over again with a new technique...back to the classroom.

V8KSN said: On a related note, I used to have a VW Beetle (the proper one) with floor mounted pedals and I changed the throttle pedal to a skateboard wheel.....and that was s t for heel and toe work SNAP!!! LOL! Back on topic.. yes.. practice practice and then practice a bit more. I have a very different approach to H&T in the RS than I do in the 993 and even more so than I had in my old Clio182 - The RS is deffo more akin to the 182 than the 993.. More side of foot than heel.

Any excuse http://youtu.be/kzLjZWrpzmQ

Option 3 and you have to be agressive on the brakes as then the pedal is down enough to line up better. Workd great on a circuit but i find rarely braking hard enough on the road personaly.

IMO, there is no getting around the issues you mentioned. The brake pedal it too high compared to the throttle pedal (as you have alluded). my solution (without getting new pedal sets or covers in a 997 RS) 1) cover as little of the brake pedal as you can, so your foot is positioned closer to the throttle 2) brake later so you need to apply more braking force (not always ideal or possible) 3) wear wider shoes. Standard racing shoes are narrow so you may prefer wider and thinner ones Incidentally, the spongy brake pedal in the vanilla models is why heel and toe is easier. However, the RS comes into it's element on track where they become perfectly positioned under hard use....... BTW, the rennline adjustable pedals do look the business and I think will be the perfect solution if you still can't get on with heel n toe on normal roads.

5517 said: Any excuse ditto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cig06FhiQmE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyVHj3sHVHQ Genie auf Raeder but turn the tone down - crap music warning

Thanks all for the views. Some cracking videos there. The Walter Rohrle one is the most amazing/funny. He is tap dancing on the pedals! Using both feet interchangeably on almost all three pedals! (...and where did they get the nut case spectators from? Pamplona?) Looks like I'll be practicing the side of foot technique. Seems quicker as well as there is comparatively less foot movement. Senna made it look so smooth and simple. ...I'll leave the rennlist adjustable pedals as a fall back.

I use the outside of the foot technique. In most cases it works really well. I found it worked well both in the 997 GT3 RS and the RS 4.0 I drove.

Is H&T really necessary though? I give a little blip by pivoting off my heel mid-changedown and seem to have plenty of time.

I use the ball of my foot on the brake, with the foot angled across to the left a bit. Then you roll the foot so that your heel connects with the lower part of the accelerator pedal. Only works on track though, as I'm never braking hard enough on the road to line the pedals up. Not easy, but practice helps. Occasionally I hit the throttle too hard and the revs go shooting up way too high.

courtesy of those beardy guys in the Advanced Driving forum (sorry DB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik&fe... Now that's slick! Bert

Adjust the pedals so it works for you

Heel and toe 997 GT3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqYeusE8ksk

Generally single seat drivers tend to use the technique where both brake and peddle are operated by the ball of the foot - like the in car with Ayrton Senna. This technique lends itself to the small and narrow pedal boxes typical of single seaters. It's pretty instinctive. When I raced GT cars i found that the typically wider peddle layouts lent themselves to the pivot technique that the OP uses currently. It is effective but requires a lot of brake pressure to create a stable and adjustable platform for the heal on the throttle. In normal road driving conditions it can therefore be a little clumsy - especially if the throttle is positioned relatively low when compared to the brake. Having driven the 997.2 in anger many times on the circuit, I found that the peddle layout still suited the pivot technique but in moderate - ie road driving - it didn't. To be honest, I rarely heal and toe on the road but if I were so inclined and owned a 997.2, Id be having the throttle peddle adapted.

Thanks Steve. Interesting points ref race car application. I notice the earlier posted video was teaching the side of foot method for the 997 To be honest HnT is not really a big need on the road...perhaps only on a spirited country drive or approaching a tasty roundabout just allows you to practice a bit. Plus on a 996 it not a conscious effort anyway. It's really on the track where it was a problem. I've only had one outing on track in a 997 and I couldn't get the hang on the day. I also had a 996 with me that day so did not spent enough seat time in the 997 to learn. I am getting the impression that the 997 will need track levels of harder braking to facilitate the manoeuvre.

Steve Rance said: Generally single seat drivers tend to use the technique where both brake and peddle are operated by the ball of the foot - like the in car with Ayrton Senna. This technique lends itself to the small and narrow pedal boxes typical of single seaters. It's pretty instinctive. When I raced GT cars i found that the typically wider peddle layouts lent themselves to the pivot technique that the OP uses currently. It is effective but requires a lot of brake pressure to create a stable and adjustable platform for the heal on the throttle. In normal road driving conditions it can therefore be a little clumsy - especially if the throttle is positioned relatively low when compared to the brake. Having driven the 997.2 in anger many times on the circuit, I found that the peddle layout still suited the pivot technique but in moderate - ie road driving - it didn't. To be honest, I rarely heal and toe on the road but if I were so inclined and owned a 997.2, Id be having the throttle peddle adapted. +1. The issue with the 7.2 on the road is that you are rarely using sufficient break pedal pressure to align pedal positions sufficiently for comfortable pivot technique.

This thread & video demonstration of technique is becoming interesting. My understanding has always been that I must combine double de-clutching with hnt. With the exception of Hr Roerhl, the videos are only of hnt WITHOUT double pumping the clutch, which doesn't really synchronize engine & gear speed. What benefit is there blipping the throttle with the clutch pedal depressed/disengaged? I learned to drive (39 hp Anglia 105, no syncro in first) by double de-clutching & then, later, rev-matching without the clutch at all, so don't really totally understand what senna & Hayward are demonstrating by blipping with the clutch pedal on the floor. In road driving, I don't really ever brake hard enough to properly hnt, however , I always double de-clutch downshifts.Can someone more experienced enlighten me. Cheers - David

paua said: This thread & video demonstration of technique is becoming interesting. My understanding has always been that I must combine double de-clutching with hnt. With the exception of Hr Roerhl, the videos are only of hnt WITHOUT double pumping the clutch, which doesn't really synchronize engine & gear speed. What benefit is there blipping the throttle with the clutch pedal depressed/disengaged? I learned to drive (39 hp Anglia 105, no syncro in first) by double de-clutching & then, later, rev-matching without the clutch at all, so don't really totally understand what senna & Hayward are demonstrating by blipping with the clutch pedal on the floor. In road driving, I don't really ever brake hard enough to properly hnt, however , I always double de-clutch downshifts.Can someone more experienced enlighten me. Cheers - David The reason they blip the throttle is to match the different rotating speeds of the engine and the gearbox before releasing the clutch. The engine and gearbox will spin at the same speed when the clutch is engaged, as soon as you depress the clutch the engine and gearbox will rotate at different speeds, the point of revving the engine is to match the speeds as close as possible before re-engaging the clutch.

so the synchros are doing their thing to match the speed of the engaging sprockets (which takes little effort), but the driven wheels do not have to accelerate the engine up to the right speed which takes a lot of effort and will likely cause the wheels to lock if the breaking is at max. Also in practice there is some clutch drag so even with the clutch down the "blip" speeds up the input side of the gearbox making the change smoother. Bert (we are definitely turning into the AD forum where is this discussed ad naseum - allegedly)

This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po

Interesting - I've heard other people say that the 997.2 was trickier to heel and toe Apparently they've pretty well fixed that particular problem on the new model though

Steve Rance said: This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po Nice Video. Steve, I notice you were left foot braking while still accelerating .... how does this help ? To reduce understeer ? Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ? Thanks.

Thank you. It was an endurance race so full tanks. Just trying to settle the car through surfees. Instinctive 'feel' driving. Later when I could actually be bothered to learn how to drive the car properly - and not like an utter tart - I changed my technique. I actually got the qualifying record that weekend - Christ knows how.

Steve Rance said: This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po Nice clip. I use a similar approach currently - though at less than half your foot speed plus I think my timing is a bit off - ie too much gap in between blip and clutch engage. http://youtu.be/fVcRi7ZlDA0 When I tried it on a 997, the throttle pedal was not there Will also try braking harder next time.

Looks like Steve R is driving 996 cup car in his vid. Pedal set up as others mentioned is quite different between 996 and 997 RS variants. Personally I struggle with HnT in 997 and only way I've found to get anywhere near approaching smooth HnT and not actually making things worse than if I hadn't bothered at all, was to use the side of the foot method and even then, need to be putting a decent amount of pressure on to the brakes i.e. you're moving on a bit! 996 in contrast seems to be set up sublimely for HnT using the foot rotation technique as Steve's video shows. Found some 997 RS thread a while ago on Rennlist asking the same question and more often than not the guys over there were changing the pedal set up by fitting something like Rennlines kit. Cheers.

LaSource said: Nice clip. I use a similar approach currently - though at less than half your foot speed plus I think my timing is a bit off - ie too much gap in between blip and clutch engage. http://youtu.be/fVcRi7ZlDA0 Not sure if it is the case (could be the camera angle) but the sideways load your blipping action generates looks to be physcially deflecting the throttle pedal sideways rather than downwards, hence the "lag" you alluded to. I've always used the "other" method, very much keeping the ball of my foot on the brake and rolling /tipping my foot onto the throttle (it means you need to articulate your foot in a different manner, but also requires less movement of your foot and ankle) I noted your comments about not using H & T on the road. If you've got a manual road car, I suggest you do it on the road, all the time, it will help you to finesse the procedure. My daily driver has been a slushbox for the past 15 years now, but I use H & T in ANY manual that I get behind the wheel of, good pedal layout or not, diesel, petrol, van, you name it, I always H & T. 'Gis a go in your '6 RS and I'll show you how I do it ........

anonymous said: [redacted] Evening JL, you well ? Nice road trip last week ? The audio on my PC is worse than sh*t, so didn't get the full effect, but noticed the throttle pedal loading looked awkward (so much so that I nipped out to the garage to see where my foot is positioned on the brake pedal, and how I blip the throttle) T'aint nothing like the OP's. My shoe is positioned so its right hand half is on the brake pedal (ie not central on it) I then roll my ankle sideways across and downwards to blip the throttle (similar to Rohrl in the Quattro video, though the camera angle isn't great in that video)

anonymous said: [redacted] Indeed I do Size 8 clodhoppers (and yes, I do tend to position the ball of my foot as close to the edge of the brake pedal as that .....) All good here thanks J. Croc bonding complete then ? ?

I have size 15s, so it's never normally an issue for me. Fitting them in the footwell is the normal issue haha.

anonymous said: [redacted] Excellent news !! When will modding commence ? Blukoo said: I have size 15s, so it's never normally an issue for me. Fitting them in the footwell is the normal issue haha. I guess you can combine brake and throttle actuation simultaneously with ease !! You'll never need to learn the art of left foot brake with those "canal boats" on your feet ??? !!!

anonymous said: [redacted] I seem to recall making you an offer to come check it out. Offer still stands - once it gets a bit warmer!

ShakMan said: Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ? It certainly does in a 987 so I can't see the 997 being any different. One way to find out ..............

LaSource said: I seem to recall making you an offer to come check it out. Offer still stands - once it gets a bit warmer! You did indeed sir ! And it's not been forgotten. As you said, when the weather improves we'll have to arrange a N.Wales run with Ade and others, by which time hopefully my latest acquisition should be fettled into something a bit more suited to road use

Trev450 said: ShakMan said: Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ? It certainly does in a 987 so I can't see the 997 being any different. One way to find out .............. You get a second or two before power is cut, so dab of the brake with the left foot is possible.

LaSource said: Nice clip. I use a similar approach currently - though at less than half your foot speed plus I think my timing is a bit off - ie too much gap in between blip and clutch engage. http://youtu.be/fVcRi7ZlDA0 When I tried it on a 997, the throttle pedal was not there Will also try braking harder next time. Try hitting the throttle harder. The revs in a GT3 flare off very quickly and if you don't give it plenty of throttle during HT you can get caught out by the time the clutch is re engaged. Basically just be a little more decisive. I think that will solve your problem. I hit the throttle quite hard unless it's a big stop. Then in some instances I intentially under Rev for a tad of engine braking help or to try and drop the nose a little quicker.

braddo said: Trev450 said: ShakMan said: Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ? It certainly does in a 987 so I can't see the 997 being any different. One way to find out .............. You get a second or two before power is cut, so dab of the brake with the left foot is possible. It's usually the case that the throttle is only cut if that is the first pedal of the two to be pressed. So if you're accelerating and hit the brake, the throttle will cut, but if you're braking you can then also hit the throttle.

5517 said: Any excuse http://youtu.be/kzLjZWrpzmQ Perfect - obviously you have his book 'Principles of Race Racing' where he goes on about stabbing at the accelerator to get the most traction as soon as possible, and on that vid we see him doing it.

thegoose said: braddo said: Trev450 said: ShakMan said: Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ? It certainly does in a 987 so I can't see the 997 being any different. One way to find out .............. You get a second or two before power is cut, so dab of the brake with the left foot is possible. It's usually the case that the throttle is only cut if that is the first pedal of the two to be pressed. So if you're accelerating and hit the brake, the throttle will cut, but if you're braking you can then also hit the throttle. Braddo - you do get a couple of seconds but while this maybe ok to unsettle the rear, if that's your desire, it certainly doesn't give you anywhere near enough time if you wish to trail brake. thegoose - I shall have to try that. Always tried to do it the other way round. Edited by Trev450 on Wednesday 28th January 11:12

Interesting. Trail braking technique is not something I've read up on and I didn't realise there can be significant left foot braking in it. When I think of left foot braking, I have in mind a light dab, say to help quell understeer in faster turns, or to very slightly slow the car (e.g. into Craner curves), but perhaps that is more applicable to front engined cars and not 911s?

I would not consider LFB effective in a 911. Trailing in normally would be much more effective and LFB trail