Admission of negligence - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Had a blow out on the motorway yesterday only a MONTH after the OP dealer fitted 4 new michelins to my Cayman S...... Recovery guy advised me the 4 wheel alignment was not done. This caused the rear tyres to fray down to the wire only on the inside.... resulting in a chasm in the one that went!!! OP dealer that it was recovered into confirmed this and advised the other tyre was "days away" from a blow out!!! I await Porsche head office comments. But I have the AA report, images, OP centre's written confirmation & images PLUS the original OP centre who supplied the tyres covering ALL costs of this repair!!!! I would like think I have a reasonable case for legal action here with an admission of liability? Imagine if both went at the same time and I span into a truck or something..... or if I was on the track doing 150mph+ and both went!!! My lord!!!!

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sebulban said: Had a blow out on the motorway yesterday only a MONTH after the OP dealer fitted 4 new michelins to my Cayman S...... Recovery guy advised me the 4 wheel alignment was not done. This caused the rear tyres to fray down to the wire only on the inside.... resulting in a chasm in the one that went!!! OP dealer that it was recovered into confirmed this and advised the other tyre was "days away" from a blow out!!! I await Porsche head office comments. But I have the AA report, images, OP centre's written confirmation & images PLUS the original OP centre who supplied the tyres covering ALL costs of this repair!!!! I would like think I have a reasonable case for legal action here with an admission of liability? How many miles have you done in the month since the tyres were fitted? It's hard to see, but the pictures seem to show tyres that have done many thousands of miles and even the outer edges appear very worn.

A four wheel alignment isn't required when you just fit tyres and judging by those pics something was obv way off before otherwise your other tyres would have been equally as bad. Looking at those tyres, they don't look nearly new either.

Evolved said: A four wheel alignment isn't required when you just fit tyres and judging by those pics something was obv way off before otherwise your other tyres would have been equally as bad. Looking at those tyres, they don't look nearly new either. Exactly my point!

They are simply dirty. If you look at the tread gauge its virtually untouched! they were only fitted a month ago as said and done a few hundred miles. Car was fully serviced and warranted in may too. Dealer has already admitted the wheel alignment, balancing and geometry was not carried out correctly.

sebulban said: They are simply dirty. If you look at the tread gauge its virtually untouched! they were only fitted a month ago as said and done a few hundred miles. Car was fully serviced and warranted in may too. Dealer has already admitted the wheel alignment, balancing and geometry was not carried out correctly. You can barely see any grooves!

Heres what dealer took with cleaned up a bit

The tread gauge is untouched because it is the lower limit of whats allowed. The alignment work still isn't required for simply fitting tyres, was other work carried out on the suspension?

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They still don't look like month old tyres even with the odd wear, the outer edges look like they've done 1000's of miles. Something isn't adding up here, confused.

If people cannot see those tyres on the outside are brand new.... as they are. And on the inside are a mess. Then maybe I'm not posting in the right place haha! There was no other work required. It was simply in to have 4 tyres replaced. The service had been passed with no issues. Also warranty put back on after 111 point check. The liability is not in dispute as both tyres being replaced at full cost to the dealer. I imagine a simple "we don't know whats happened in the month between now and then" is an easy cop out and they haven't said that.

This is the tread on my Cup2 tyre after a few thousand miles. I think Cup2 tyres only start with 6mm rather than 8mm too!

As already noted, when just fitting new tyres, I've never had to have a wheel alignment done. If the previous set were borked with evident uneven wear, then yes, a full alignment should also have been done as well. No major harm done thankfully for you.

Evolved said: They still don't look like month old tyres even with the odd wear, the outer edges look like they've done 1000's of miles. Something isn't adding up here, confused. To me, a layman, they look new on the outside. As they did to the naked eye. As they are. After an accident I can understand they are dirty in my pictures. But dealer ones showed them better. AA guy AND Porsche engineer have confirmed the "issue." I feel like I'm being accused of trying to dibble something here haaha!

Yes they do have a lower tread depth, I actually thought it was lower that 6mm as I only got around 6k on the CSL out of a set and that was fully geo'd

GaryF said: As already noted, when just fitting new tyres, I've never had to have a wheel alignment done. If the previous set were borked with evident uneven wear, then yes, a full alignment should also have been done as well. No major harm done thankfully for you. No mate. The computer advised the PSM was not working which made me slow down.... then the shuddering started and i veered into hard shoulder to a stop. Apparently they now need to also put in new rear suspension adjustment bolts too.

sebulban said: To me, a layman, they look new on the outside. As they did to the naked eye. As they are. After an accident I can understand they are dirty in my pictures. But dealer ones showed them better. AA guy AND Porsche engineer have confirmed the "issue." I feel like I'm being accused of trying to dibble something here haaha! Not accusing you of anything, but something isn't adding up and the AA man sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

You either do burnouts everywhere, or those michelins weren't as new as you were told. I did 6000 miles this year in the GT2 and only managed to get down to 4mm on the rear PS2s.

Can I ask - how many miles had you done in the month since the tyres were new, and how many track days in that time?

Evolved said: Not accusing you of anything, but something isn't adding up and the AA man sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about. So ONLY the tread on inside of the rear tyres was out. The AA guy advised it was no tracked correctly. Porsche have CONFIRMED this. But they are all wrong? What do you think is the issue? I saw the tyres and they were brand new or "new." Tread was fine. And since they have been fitted I have done hundred of miles.... not thousands. Also I don't do "burn outs" or track the car. It is well looked after and its whole history is through dealers for everything.

Spoof said: You either do burnouts everywhere, or those michelins weren't as new as you were told. I did 6000 miles this year in the GT2 and only managed to get down to 4mm on the rear PS2s. Dont do burnouts. And the tyres looked pretty new to me. Fronts look immaculate still.

Can't see them admitting any liability or really see the need for it.

Magic919 said: Can't see them admitting any liability or really see the need for it. As per my initial post.... they have.

Looks like you had a lucky escape thankfully, in your opening post you do mention that if you were doing 150mph on the track it may have been a different outcome though in your last post you say you do not track the car ? It is a timely reminder to check our tyres regularly, good luck with your claim.

There are some peculiar posts on this thread, OP has set out the situation pretty clearly on more than one occasion but folks seem determined to ignore him

Looks like you had a lucky escape thankfully, in your opening post you do mention that if you were doing 150mph on the track it may have been a different outcome though in your last post you say you do not track the car ? It is a timely reminder to check our tyres regularly, good luck with your claim.

steve2 said: Looks like you had a lucky escape thankfully, in your opening post you do mention that if you were doing 150mph on the track it may have been a different outcome though in your last post you say you do not track the car ? It is a timely reminder to check our tyres regularly, good luck with your claim. I was talking figuratively..... IF i tracked the car. As a Porsche owner.... the risk of that is higher. So shoddy workmanship could have worse consequences? I dont post on here a lot.... and this thread is making me see why haha!!! I was simply sharing an experience and it seems like an interrogation! Oh well.... no harm no foul

Blackpuddin said: There are some peculiar posts on this thread, OP has set out the situation pretty clearly on more than one occasion but folks seem determined to ignore him Haha someone who digested the post. Thanks.

you haven't really suffered any huge loss or damage, apart from needing some new tyres and some alignment, and may be for your time wasted dealing with this ...

sebulban said: Haha someone who digested the post. Thanks. It's just an observation that a few of us have made independently. Maybe it's simply down to poor photos. Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 18th August 18:54

sebulban said: sidicks said: It's just an observation that a few of us have made independently. Maybe it's simple down to poor photos. simply

SFO said: you haven't really suffered any huge loss or damage, apart from needing some new tyres and some alignment, and may be for your time wasted dealing with this ... Is that how negligence cases work? I don't know. Im waiting legal advice and Porsche head office. I would think that the potential fatal risk could result in a court case? That being said yes Im thankful I didn't spin into a lorry and smash my car up and end up in A&E. And yes Im also thankful all costs being covered

sebulban said: Is that how negligence cases work? I don't know. Im waiting legal advice and Porsche head office. I would think that the potential fatal risk could result in a court case? That being said yes Im thankful I didn't spin into a lorry and smash my car up and end up in A&E. And yes Im also thankful all costs being covered "Where there's blame, there's a claim..."

sidicks said: "Where there's blame, there's a claim..." Haha true. A friend of mine who is a mechanic and builds sports cars has thrown in that maybe its a tyre issue and they just fell apart. With Porsche admitting it was not tracked right.... I couldn't see Michelin swallowing that accusation haha!

Have you actually measured the tread depth at the outside of the tyre to confirm its ~8mm?

chriscoates81 said: Have you actually measured the tread depth at the outside of the tyre to confirm its ~8mm? Not to repeat myself. The tyres are all a month old. The tyre pressures have recently been checked. The tyre blew out - and I was advised by AA & Porsche it was a tracking issue. Porsche have covered cost.... that and a phone call & email from the Manager confirming tracking issue confirms some sort of liability? Surely if the whole tyre surface was worn down etc they would have not done that. They would have pushed the blame to me.

sebulban said: Not to repeat myself. The tyres are all a month old. The tyre pressures have recently been checked. The tyre blew out - and I was advised by AA & Porsche it was a tracking issue. Porsche have covered cost.... that and a phone call & email from the Manager confirming tracking issue confirms some sort of liability? Surely if the whole tyre surface was worn down etc they would have not done that. They would have pushed the blame to me. I'm just amazed that if the tyres have genuinely worn as much as shown, and so inconsistently, you wouldn't have noticed a problem when driving!

Careful matey any question of negligence would have to look at why you did not inspect the condition of the tyres before you started the journey. There is an obligation on the driver to verify his vehicle is in a road worthy condition. Given the problem as you describe it, the accelerated tyre wear would have occurred over the month and you should have spotted it before the blow-out - ideally by inspecting the tyre or by noticing an issue with the handling. Clearly there was a problem with the work that was done and whoever did the work has their blame to take. You have my sympathy and that of most folks on here by the looks of things - please don't shoot the messenger - just wouldn't want you getting yourself in trouble by forcing the issue.

sidicks said: I'm just amazed that if the tyres have genuinely worn as much as shown, and so inconsistently, you wouldn't have noticed a problem when driving! What sort of problems? I don't really push it hard. And no nothing major. Maybe when its all sorted and its back to normal i will be like.... WTF. But its not like anythings stood out. A friend has suggested delaminated?

Regarding the cause, if the geo wasn't touched when the tyres were changed, you'd either have noticed similar wear on the old tyres, or you've had a suspension failure in the meantime. It is possible (maybe even likely) that the dealer did do the geo but made an a**e of it - that tyre wear is consistent with having way too much negative camber.

Oso said: Careful matey any question of negligence would have to look at why you did not inspect the condition of the tyres before you started the journey. There is an obligation on the driver to verify his vehicle is in a road worthy condition. Given the problem as you describe it, the accelerated tyre wear would have occurred over the month and you should have spotted it before the blow-out - ideally by inspecting the tyre or by noticing an issue with the handling. Clearly there was a problem with the work that was done and whoever did the work has their blame to take. You have my sympathy and that of most folks on here by the looks of things - please don't shoot the messenger - just wouldn't want you getting yourself in trouble by forcing the issue. Thanks mate appreciate your comments. I am taking legal advice and am yet to hear Porsche head office thoughts. I take your point, but to me thats a huge cop out if they followed that line because how often do people fully inspect their vehicles before journies? Last thing i would expect on a month old set of tyres is them to be capable of killing me!!! But if Im given that from porsche or solicitors Ill be sure to let you say i told you so haha!

Oso said: Regarding the cause, if the geo wasn't touched when the tyres were changed, you'd either have noticed similar wear on the old tyres, or you've had a suspension failure in the meantime. It is possible (maybe even likely) that the dealer did do the geo but made an a**e of it - that tyre wear is consistent with having way too much negative camber. I purchased the car last July. And the car has run fine. Tyres needed changing in May this year so did all 4. I can't say I noticed anything handling wise. Service was done in May too and passed fine. Also car had warranty put back on after 111 point check in Feb I think.

got to be honest here OP. Not sure what your looking for from Porsche? They are already covering costs of the repairs, also not entirely sure what is in it for solicitors to chase this up, so many different factors could have affected the car since the wheels were fitted. As someone else said, they could pull you up on not checking the road worthiness of your car before each journey, but honestly who does? Given the state on the inner tyre edge I'd have thought they would have been rubbing on something to have worn out so fast, maybe you'd have heard it and thought it as nothing, or even smelt the burning of the rubber if it was actually rubbing against something. Bear in mind also the fact that Porsche UK will have an amazing legal team should you decide to push on with whatever it is your seeking legally. and unless you have that level of legal representation prepare to lose. Finally taking the word of a recovery guy also means diddily. My mates a recovery man and he knows nothing about cars mechanically, aside from the best way to load one on the back of his truck, and even then its a bit ropey at times! (not saying they are all like that however)

Oso said: Regarding the cause, if the geo wasn't touched when the tyres were changed, you'd either have noticed similar wear on the old tyres, or you've had a suspension failure in the meantime. It is possible (maybe even likely) that the dealer did do the geo but made an a**e of it - that tyre wear is consistent with having way too much negative camber. I'm surprized if it's possible to get enough negative camber to cause that degree of wear unless something had broken on BOTH sides. The pictures don't appear to show massive negative camber. I'd be more inclined to think excessive rear toe out.

RyanTank said: got to be honest here OP. Not sure what your looking for from Porsche? They are already covering costs of the repairs, also not entirely sure what is in it for solicitors to chase this up, so many different factors could have affected the car since the wheels were fitted. As someone else said, they could pull you up on not checking the road worthiness of your car before each journey, but honestly who does? Given the state on the inner tyre edge I'd have thought they would have been rubbing on something to have worn out so fast, maybe you'd have heard it and thought it as nothing, or even smelt the burning of the rubber if it was actually rubbing against something. Bear in mind also the fact that Porsche UK will have an amazing legal team should you decide to push on with whatever it is your seeking legally. and unless you have that level of legal representation prepare to lose. Finally taking the word of a recovery guy also means diddily. My mates a recovery man and he knows nothing about cars mechanically, aside from the best way to load one on the back of his truck, and even then its a bit ropey at times! (not saying they are all like that however) Part of my reason for posting is I don't know is the honest answer what Im expected. Im a professional MMA fighter but am big enough, and ugly enough, to admit I was slightly shaken up at the thought of the potential carnage that could have occurred. Im also bright enough to know that the AA guy isn't an "expert" nor that Porsche wouldn't have a s t hot legal team. But them admitting a level of liability. Ill add in that I have had a fair few issues with the particular dealer. Just seems negligent. If all I get is costs covered a full check to make sure there is nothing underlying I will take that. But if there is a wider legal case / compensation to be had, clearly ill pursue. I work for a large finance company who have hooked me up with a firm who specialise in this sort of thing. If they say exactly what you guys are - then ill post here so people can see that should this issue happen to them this is the likely outcome!!!!!!

Honestly champ, you need to stand under a cold shower. You've got your replacement new tyres. Take the car to a suspension specialist and get the geo done properly. Maybe have a quiet word with the the OPC dealer principal, make sure it doesn't happen again, see if he makes you some sort of additional gesture. Setting the lawyers on them is not the answer. It will end your relationship with the OPC, possibly Porsche as a whole, cost you a load of money and angst and you'll probably not get very far, as I said above. Just chalk it up to experience and be thankful no one was hurt.

Given that the problem is almost certainly caused by faulty rear suspension geometry (however caused) I'd be inclined to have a geometry check. If you can determine what the exact cause of the problem is then you will be in a better position to have a discussion with your dealer.

Ozzie Osmond said: So to repeat a question that was asked earlier in the thread, what was the condition of the previous set of tyres which were taken off? And how long had they been on the car? I don't think the garage have "admitted" anything, let alone negligence. They had normal wear and were replaced as they had reached their normal end of life. They were on, I believe, for circa 15,000 miles. And them apologising and putting in writing the tracking/geometry was not done properly when the tyres were replaced isn't an admission of anything? I take the point from other lads post about ending my relationship with Porsche by setting lawyers on them. Im only taking advice (as I'm taking here) and await porsche head office calling me and letting me know what they think of it all. But I wont be using that centre again as this is the third instance of poor work.

bcr5784 said: I'm surprized if it's possible to get enough negative camber to cause that degree of wear unless something had broken on BOTH sides. The pictures don't appear to show massive negative camber. I'd be more inclined to think excessive rear toe out. Under normal circumstances I would agree, however the op says he couldn't feel anything untoward in the handing yet if if it was to have had excessive toeout, the liklihood of oversteer would have been highly probable.

sebulban said: Apparently they now need to also put in new rear suspension adjustment bolts too. Could there be a clue here? Perhaps these suspension adjustment bolts have failed causing the excessive tyre wear?

DarkMatter said: Could there be a clue here? Perhaps these suspension adjustment bolts have failed causing the excessive tyre wear? Potentially. Or where the tyre blew out and I landed on the wheel till i pulled off the motorway it was damaged?

You said that the tyres had only been on a month and then later said they were fitted in May? Which is it?

mollytherocker said: You said that the tyres had only been on a month and then later said they were fitted in May? Which is it? Ok to be 100% precise...... sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were fitted May 27th..... I then went on holiday for a month to Mexico (to not miss any crucial details haha). By my calculations thats probably about 6 weeks of use...... my apologies. Does that change anything?

sebulban said: Ok to be 100% precise...... sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were fitted May 27th..... I then went on holiday for a month to Mexico (to not miss any crucial details haha). By my calculations thats probably about 6 weeks of use...... my apologies. Does that change anything? Does your car have TPMS and if so, did you not notice the pressures increasing significantly on a long drive (which I would assume they must have, given the wear on the insides)?

U sebulban said: Not to repeat myself. The tyres are all a month old. . Can you post a pic of the date stamps on the sidewalls please.

Trev450 said: Under normal circumstances I would agree, however the op says he couldn't feel anything untoward in the handing yet if if it was to have had excessive toeout, the liklihood of oversteer would have been highly probable. Agree about oversteer, but difficult to imagine what else would have that effect (toe in would cause wear on the outer shoulders)

sidicks said: Does your car have TPMS and if so, did you not notice the pressures increasing significantly on a long drive (which I would assume they must have, given the wear on the insides)? The only thing that happened of note was on the journey where it blew a few minutes before the PSM warning light went on on the dash.... I was thinking to myself is that important because you can manually switch it off. But before I could even get into any other thoughts the steering wheel was vibrating haha and so I was off on hard shoulder!! Ill add in.... the journey i was doing was a long one that I only do to west wales to see my parents a few times a year. So had.... a few days before..... checked all the tyre pressures and no huge issues.

sebulban said: sidicks said: My guess is "something for nothing"... I don't believe in ad hominem..... but in this case. Shut up bell end. If the garage have already agreed to rectify the situation, why involve lawyers? You're clearly hoping (but not expecting) 'something for nothing'. Sorry you can't see that!

sebulban said: davek_964 said: I don't think anybody disputes that it COULD have been very serious. But I'm inclined to agree with Oso - they are already compensating you directly for any real loss you suffered, and I think any goodwill Porsche were likely to offer for any loss you <might> have suffered is likely to disappear now the lawyers are involved. Regardless of whether Porsche were responsible for the tyres wearing excessively- which does seem to be the case - it is always going to be your responsibility to make sure the car is roadworthy, which means that you should have noticed this long before the tyre exploded. Good luck, and I hope you do get a positive result. But I suspect that unless you're using an ambulance chasing no-win-no-fee lawyer, you're simply going to end up with a legal bill. To reiterate I havent "set the lawyers on them." - Im awaiting Porsche Head Office response to their "investigations." I took legal advice before posting here just to see where I stand. And after hearing peoples thoughts on here Im guessing the ultimate result will be rectifying their error... maybe an offer of a service or something & a pretty cheap life lesson, which Im all for. You are not reiterating. You are stating completely the opposite of what you said in an earlier post : sebulban said: ...FYI to everyone I have "set the lawyers" on them.... I guess you missed out the word "not". Hence my (and I suspect other peoples) confusion.

davek_964 said: I guess you missed out the word "not". Hence my (and I suspect other peoples) confusion. Hahaha the dreaded typo!!! So didn't mention I had an alignment done - queue accusations of burning my own tyres out. AND I then say I'm setting the lawyers on them when i meant HAVENT - queue other various pieces of "abuse." - Haven't helped myself out on that. I am also NOT expecting something for nothing. I am a parity man. I do kind of regret posting on here now and talking in person with people is so much easier.

sebulban said: I am also NOT expecting something for nothing. I am a parity man. So are you happy that you are getting what you want and what is right in the circumstances? New tyres and tech issues fixed?

Two incidents have come and gone by in my simple life this week which somehow draw comparisons.. First was a snotty chasing letter received from HMRC chasing supposed tax not paid. Checked records - all paid, cheque cleared all on time... What on earth?? Who the hell?? You wait.. Get em on the phone. The HMRC lady could not have been more helpful, apologetic and just plain nice.. Next. Had to take daughters newly purchased phone back to one of those strange buy and sell nearly new shops. Again I prepared myself for a right battle and expected nothing but disputes, awkwardness and hassle.. Girl serving followed by store manager could not of been more agreeable, genuinely helpful and again nice. Left shop with replacement phone and a very happy daughter on my return home.. Funny enough I also previously had experience of the same OPC who had a slight mishap when our car was in for service. Admittedly the problem was caused by a third party but the way they handled the situation and did their upmost to remedy the mistake was all one could seriously ask or indeed expect. If the faults and issues are remedied and your on the end of humbling niceness your on to a winner...To expect more is just so 'American' Edited by jonny finance on Thursday 20th August 14:13

sebulban said: Hahaha the dreaded typo!!! So didn't mention I had an alignment done - queue accusations of burning my own tyres out. AND I then say I'm setting the lawyers on them when i meant HAVENT - queue other various pieces of "abuse." - Haven't helped myself out on that. I am also NOT expecting something for nothing. I am a parity man. I do kind of regret posting on here now and talking in person with people is so much easier. If it were me, I'd want the cost of repairs covered and any expenses (e.g. hire car) covered. Unless I'd suffered personal injury or thought that the car had suffered permanently, I certainly wouldn't be getting lawyers involved. Lawyers will obviously want to to pursue some sort of personal claim as that's how they earn a living. I'm sure that when the car is all sorted, the next time it goes in for a service it will be very well looked after. The nicer you are to them now, the better service you'll get in the future. I'd bank some good will and leave it at that.

jonny finance said: Two incidents have come and gone by in my simple life this week which somehow draw comparisons.. First was a snotty chasing letter received from HMRC chasing supposed tax not paid. Checked records - all paid, cheque cleared all on time... What on earth?? Who the hell?? You wait.. Get em on the phone. The HMRC lady could not have been more helpful, apologetic and just plain nice.. Next. Had to take daughters newly purchased phone back to one of those strange buy and sell nearly new shops. Again I prepared myself for a right battle and expected nothing but disputes, awkwardness and hassle.. Girl serving followed by store manager could not of been more agreeable, genuinely helpful and again nice. Left shop with replacement phone and a very happy daughter on my return home.. Funny enough I also previously had experience of the same OPC who had a slight mishap when our car was in for service. Admittedly the problem was caused by a third party but the way they handled the situation and did their upmost to remedy the mistake was all one could seriously ask or indeed expect. If the faults and issues are remedied and your on the end of humbling niceness your on to a winner...To expect more is just so 'American' And if this is the third such incident with the same centre? Just let it slide? Hoping it will improve. Or till someone gets killed. Edited by jonny finance on Thursday 20th August 14:13

sebulban said: And if this is the third such incident with the same centre? Just let it slide? Hoping it will improve. Or till someone gets killed. What is the nature of the previous two incidents?

sebulban said: And if this is the third such incident with the same centre? Just let it slide? Hoping it will improve. Or till someone gets killed. You've raised it with Porsche HQ. You've done your bit. You can always take it somewhere else next time if you don't trust the OPC any more. Getting a lawyer involved is OTT. It may get you some compensation, but will it guarantee that the OPC will improve their procedures? Who will police that? I can understand that you had a scary experience, and you would like to try and ensure that it doesn't happen again, but I believe that the power to enforce that is beyond both you and a lawyer. Porsche will not want a repeat of this situation, so I'd say leave them to it and let them sort it out themselves. Edited by VladD on Thursday 20th August 14:43

Its going round in circles a bit and I don't follow a lot of the logic here so I think ill just sum up and leave it :-) We have established there is no clear indicator of who is at fault here. The available evidence would put a reasonable probability on it being Porsche not doing the wheel alignment at all, or correctly, when the 4 tyres were replaced in May (as was paid for). They have replaced the tyres for free, done a check and put some new bolts on the suspension free of charge. So ultimately I am back in the position I was in when the tyres were replaced in May. There is debate about whether there is any element of negligence here and whether legal action is worth the effort. The consensus is because Porsche are so big and scary, its hard to prove and we wouldn't want to annoy them going forward because they service the car AND some people are happy to let things slide for as many times as is necessary until there is a a death or something more serious (then take action)..... I should put it down to experience. Viva la prevention is better cure!!! The car has just arrived now.... all shiny and repaired. So Im off down the back roads to see how quickly I can wear this set down and get back on here claiming I don't know whats going on ;-)

Its a tough audience on PH Porsche forum lol !

sebulban said: The consensus is because Porsche are so big and scary, its hard to prove and we wouldn't want to annoy them going forward because they service the car AND some people are happy to let things slide for as many times as is necessary until there is a a death or something more serious (then take action)..... I should put it down to experience. Viva la prevention is better cure!!! Not exactly. At least my view is : you can't be compensated for something that didn't happen. And that's what I'm reading from other posters too. If you think that going legal would somehow cause Porsche to adopt new procedures that would prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again, then that's commendable - but rather unlikely to achieve the required result.

sebulban said: The car has just arrived now.... all shiny and repaired. So Im off down the back roads to see how quickly I can wear this set down and get back on here claiming I don't know whats going on ;-) Yes, do come back and let us know how the burnouts go. We expect the rears to be toast before tea. Nothing less will do

I'm sebulban said: Its going round in circles a bit and I don't follow a lot of the logic here so I think ill just sum up and leave it :-) We have established there is no clear indicator of who is at fault here. The available evidence would put a reasonable probability on it being Porsche not doing the wheel alignment at all, or correctly, when the 4 tyres were replaced in May (as was paid for). They have replaced the tyres for free, done a check and put some new bolts on the suspension free of charge. So ultimately I am back in the position I was in when the tyres were replaced in May. There is debate about whether there is any element of negligence here and whether legal action is worth the effort. The consensus is because Porsche are so big and scary, its hard to prove and we wouldn't want to annoy them going forward because they service the car AND some people are happy to let things slide for as many times as is necessary until there is a a death or something more serious (then take action)..... I should put it down to experience. Viva la prevention is better cure!!! The car has just arrived now.... all shiny and repaired. So Im off down the back roads to see how quickly I can wear this set down and get back on here claiming I don't know whats going on ;-) On balance this is a pretty good summary..... When you offer a premium service and charge for it you should deliver it, full stop. If you don't put it right and compensate appropriately. Big chit chat about what appropriate is but it seems on the scale Porsche have selected the lower end, simply to put right there 'probable' f up. I would want more if only for my time and effort, but life is short so I wouldn't pursue the big scary people........ Que lots of responses, they have done everything, porsche is great blar blar

davek_964 said: Not exactly. At least my view is : you can't be compensated for something that didn't happen. And that's what I'm reading from other posters too. If you think that going legal would somehow cause Porsche to adopt new procedures that would prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again, then that's commendable - but rather unlikely to achieve the required result. So if I prove ONE case of someone being "compensated for something that didn't happen" in UK law will I win the internets again today?

sebulban said: So if I prove ONE case of someone being "compensated for something that didn't happen" in UK law will I win the internets again today? I guess you 'win' if you proceed with legal action, win the case and Porsche award you compensation. Personally, I don't see that as very likely. But if it's what you want to do, then knock yourself out.

sebulban said: jonny finance said: Two incidents have come and gone by in my simple life this week which somehow draw comparisons.. First was a snotty chasing letter received from HMRC chasing supposed tax not paid. Checked records - all paid, cheque cleared all on time... What on earth?? Who the hell?? You wait.. Get em on the phone. The HMRC lady could not have been more helpful, apologetic and just plain nice.. Next. Had to take daughters newly purchased phone back to one of those strange buy and sell nearly new shops. Again I prepared myself for a right battle and expected nothing but disputes, awkwardness and hassle.. Girl serving followed by store manager could not of been more agreeable, genuinely helpful and again nice. Left shop with replacement phone and a very happy daughter on my return home.. Funny enough I also previously had experience of the same OPC who had a slight mishap when our car was in for service. Admittedly the problem was caused by a third party but the way they handled the situation and did their upmost to remedy the mistake was all one could seriously ask or indeed expect. If the faults and issues are remedied and your on the end of humbling niceness your on to a winner...To expect more is just so 'American' And if this is the third such incident with the same centre? Just let it slide? Hoping it will improve. Or till someone gets killed. Edited by jonny finance on Thursday 20th August 14:13 My incident was extremely minor and related to the interior unfortunately getting marked. This OPC treated the matter with the upmost care and satisfaction. I was almost glad it happened (haha!)

YoungMD said: On balance this is a pretty good summary..... When you offer a premium service and charge for it you should deliver it, full stop. If you don't put it right and compensate appropriately. Big chit chat about what appropriate is but it seems on the scale Porsche have selected the lower end, simply to put right there 'probable' f up. I would want more if only for my time and effort, but life is short so I wouldn't pursue the big scary people........ Que lots of responses, they have done everything, porsche is great blar blar You are still lumping two different things together. "Putting it right" and "compensation". There is nothing to compensate for.

davek_964 said: I guess you 'win' if you proceed with legal action, win the case and Porsche award you compensation. Personally, I don't see that as very likely. But if it's what you want to do, then knock yourself out. Incorrect. You made a statement "At least my view is : you can't be compensated for something that didn't happen....." That strikes me as a huge generalisation.

Opportunism seems to be the word most relevant to this thread. Modern society at its best. Had my mother's mother been on the Titanic........

Skyman said: Opportunism seems to be the word most relevant to this thread. Modern society at its best. Had my mother's mother been on the Titanic........ If you are going to post nonsense at least come up with something original :-/

sebulban said: If you are going to post nonsense at least come up with something original :-/ Why? You have yet to. Just get the damage rectified and move on. Life is too short, and your would-be loss is of no relevance to you or anyone else. The tide is clearly against you.

Skyman said: Why? You have yet to. Just get the damage rectified and move on. Life is too short, and your would-be loss is of no relevance to you or anyone else. The tide is clearly against you. bwahahahah tide. Ive said many times I posted here to get peoples thoughts & to share an experience.

sebulban said: bwahahahah tide. Ive said many times I posted here to get peoples thoughts & to share an experience. It's just that you don't like the thoughts that you are receiving!

Skyman said: Opportunism seems to be the word most relevant to this thread. Modern society at its best. Had my mother's mother been on the Titanic........ I wonder if you'd feel the same if you had a young child in the car with you if a similar occurrence happened? I'd be a mad cat and if I had Mr OPs skills someone at OPC would be being knocked out. He's been pretty reasonable, eloquent and laid back for a killing machine....

sidicks said: It's just that you don't like the thoughts that you are receiving! Incorrect. Just makes me think of this...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1MO023vN8o

sebulban said: davek_964 said: I guess you 'win' if you proceed with legal action, win the case and Porsche award you compensation. Personally, I don't see that as very likely. But if it's what you want to do, then knock yourself out. Incorrect. You made a statement "At least my view is : you can't be compensated for something that didn't happen....." That strikes me as a huge generalisation. The dictionary definition of compensation : Something, typically money, awarded to someone for loss, suffering or injury. You are already being compensated for loss (tyres etc). You were not injured. Are you claiming suffering? You cannot be 'compensated' for loss, suffering or injury that did not happen. In any event, you do 'win' because this discussion is a pointless waste of time. The only people whose opinion you seem to want are the ones that agree with you. Since that's not mine I will no longer offer an opinion.

IMI A said: I wonder if you'd feel the same if you had a young child in the car with you if a similar occurrence happened? I'd be a mad cat and if I had Mr OPs skills someone at OPC would be being knocked out. He's been pretty reasonable, eloquent and laid back for a killing machine.... Oh yes, I forgot his capability. But still, move on.

If they've put the car straight free of charge and nobody was hurt, just think yourself lucky and move on. Life isn't perfect....

davek_964 said: The dictionary definition of compensation : Something, typically money, awarded to someone for loss, suffering or injury. You are already being compensated for loss (tyres etc). You were not injured. Are you claiming suffering? You cannot be 'compensated' for loss, suffering or injury that did not happen. In any event, you do 'win' because this discussion is a pointless waste of time. The only people whose opinion you seem to want are the ones that agree with you. Since that's not mine I will no longer offer an opinion. Nail.....head. Excellent post.

A fairly entertaining thread. 8/10.

mollytherocker said: A fairly entertaining thread. 8/10. have a look at OPs MMA fights - pretty cool

davek_964 said: The dictionary definition of compensation : Something, typically money, awarded to someone for loss, suffering or injury. You are already being compensated for loss (tyres etc). You were not injured. Are you claiming suffering? You cannot be 'compensated' for loss, suffering or injury that did not happen. In any event, you do 'win' because this discussion is a pointless waste of time. The only people whose opinion you seem to want are the ones that agree with you. Since that's not mine I will no longer offer an opinion. I don't think its a waste of time myself.... there has been plenty of good points raised. I have learnt from those on both sides of the debate. Thanks to the person who raised about seeing a suspension specialist - my car is booked in. It just surprises me when people derail a discussion and poke someone then get all butt hurt when they are answered back to...... I agree it didn't have to be continued for 200 posts and I did try a final post to summarise. What i will add.... is I guess Im cut from a different cloth and wont stand morons as well as a lot of you. I don't in every day life either - maybe its the martial artist in me. Good luck with your nicey nicey approach though Im sure it will work out for you. But I have a set of balls and will stand up for myself. Im not going to say what Porsche head office came back with this evening..... as someone pointed out probably best to keep the details quiet. Needless to say had I tuck tailed and done what a lot of you clearly do in your everyday life I wouldn't be getting the result I have :-)

IMI A said: have a look at OPs MMA fights - pretty cool Hey you better be watching the ones Ive won!!! haha!!!!

"No rubber left again, none at all? This is one tough case..."

BertBert said: YoungMD said: On balance this is a pretty good summary..... When you offer a premium service and charge for it you should deliver it, full stop. If you don't put it right and compensate appropriately. Big chit chat about what appropriate is but it seems on the scale Porsche have selected the lower end, simply to put right there 'probable' f up. I would want more if only for my time and effort, but life is short so I wouldn't pursue the big scary people........ Que lots of responses, they have done everything, porsche is great blar blar You are still lumping two different things together. "Putting it right" and "compensation". There is nothing to compensate for. what a daft comment of course i'm putting the two together, i know I'm a man but a can multi-word... i think this tread deserves at least a 8.5/10, and i like the guy who started the tread, seems to make sense to me, and even if he doesn't I'm on his side.....

First read of this engaging thread Now, I will go down and inspect all my tyres!

sebulban said: What i will add.... is I guess Im cut from a different cloth and wont stand morons as well as a lot of you. I don't in every day life either - maybe its the martial artist in me. Good luck with your nicey nicey approach though Im sure it will work out for you. But I have a set of balls and will stand up for myself. Im not going to say what Porsche head office came back with this evening..... as someone pointed out probably best to keep the details quiet. Needless to say had I tuck tailed and done what a lot of you clearly do in your everyday life I wouldn't be getting the result I have :-) I can certainly see the similarities here with the MMA fighter: for one thing, you clearly like to have your fights in front of an audience - and you certainly got one here on PH for this fight with your OPC! Do traditional martial arts approve of unnecessary aggression? You've had this battle very much in public - so we've seen a bit about what you're about - and fair play to you, you seem happy with how it ended, well done. But don't make the mistake of thinking that means you know much about any of us or what we do in our everyday life. You've had a lot of help offered on here; yep you've caught some incoming and there have been a few arguments on the sidelines (as is alway the case on PH) - but aren't there more magnanimous ways to sign off than implying that you're the only one with any balls around here? How is the car any way? Maybe share some thoughts about how it is driving now it's back? What are you planning to do when you get the geometry done?

Late to the thread and have only skipped through, so forgive me if I'm repeating, but - My 2003 986S has just done a similar thing, although nowhere near so badly. It shaved off the inner edges of the rear tyres, plus I was aware of an occasional 'clunk' from underneath. It's cost a grand to put right at Center Gravity. So my thoughts are, how old is the OP's car? What were the tyres that were replaced like, because just replacing the rear tyres will not cause that wear pattern? If alignment was carried out when the tyres were replaced, what did the OP pay, because you only get what you pay for? Alignment is a serious task imo, on MX5 forums I used to read of people who reckoned they've had alignment done for 35 quid or whatever, and I know at that cost you don't get anything at all. Not that that absolves anyone of anything - but you do only get what you pay for. Alignment equipment is expensive, and to do it properly can take from a couple of hours on a new/young car, to a couple of days on an old car like mine where all the fasteners under the car seizes up. (We're talking about threads that don't get turned for years, exposed to the elements).

Oso said: sebulban said: What i will add.... is I guess Im cut from a different cloth and wont stand morons as well as a lot of you. I don't in every day life either - maybe its the martial artist in me. Good luck with your nicey nicey approach though Im sure it will work out for you. But I have a set of balls and will stand up for myself. Im not going to say what Porsche head office came back with this evening..... as someone pointed out probably best to keep the details quiet. Needless to say had I tuck tailed and done what a lot of you clearly do in your everyday life I wouldn't be getting the result I have :-) I can certainly see the similarities here with the MMA fighter: for one thing, you clearly like to have your fights in front of an audience - and you certainly got one here on PH for this fight with your OPC! Do traditional martial arts approve of unnecessary aggression? You've had this battle very much in public - so we've seen a bit about what you're about - and fair play to you, you seem happy with how it ended, well done. But don't make the mistake of thinking that means you know much about any of us or what we do in our everyday life. You've had a lot of help offered on here; yep you've caught some incoming and there have been a few arguments on the sidelines (as is alway the case on PH) - but aren't there more magnanimous ways to sign off than implying that you're the only one with any balls around here? How is the car any way? Maybe share some thoughts about how it is driving now it's back? What are you planning to do when you get the geometry done? - I kind of like your comment, I think the tread was helpful to op and a good bit of fun along the way, yes a lot of nonsense but this is the internet.....but you can't critisise the guy for opening up, sharing etc etc and then proudly state he doesnt know any of us and shouldn't think he does... I commend the guy for opening up and being so honest, it's what made the tread. Now I'm off to read about the husband that is suing his wife after their wedding as when she took her make-up off he did not recognise her......

sebulban said: Im not going to say what Porsche head office came back with this evening..... as someone pointed out probably best to keep the details quiet. Needless to say had I tuck tailed and done what a lot of you clearly do in your everyday life I wouldn't be getting the result I have :-) Oh dear. There's a difference between tucking tail and having personal standards. I wouldn't have taken the route you did, not because I'd be afraid of Porsche, but because I'd find it a distasteful way to conduct myself. If you're happy to live like that and "win", then good for you. Don't bother replying because I'm no longer following this thread.

VladD said: Oh dear. There's a difference between tucking tail and having personal standards. I wouldn't have taken the route you did, not because I'd be afraid of Porsche, but because I'd find it a distasteful way to conduct myself. If you're happy to live like that and "win", then good for you. Don't bother replying because I'm no longer following this thread. I suspect the true cost of what was agreed will only be known if / when the OP needs some goodwill from his OPC...

sebulban said: ...maybe its the martial artist in me. Move over Mr Powerfully Built Company Director...

Oso said: I can certainly see the similarities here with the MMA fighter: for one thing, you clearly like to have your fights in front of an audience - and you certainly got one here on PH for this fight with your OPC! Do traditional martial arts approve of unnecessary aggression? You've had this battle very much in public - so we've seen a bit about what you're about - and fair play to you, you seem happy with how it ended, well done. But don't make the mistake of thinking that means you know much about any of us or what we do in our everyday life. You've had a lot of help offered on here; yep you've caught some incoming and there have been a few arguments on the sidelines (as is alway the case on PH) - but aren't there more magnanimous ways to sign off than implying that you're the only one with any balls around here? How is the car any way? Maybe share some thoughts about how it is driving now it's back? What are you planning to do when you get the geometry done? Sorry - been away in Spain and just back. There was no unnecessary aggression - theres no tone here. Meeting fire with fire is allowed though.... ;-) The car seems fine thanks. One thing I have learnt is that as a beginner in the sports car world I don't know my car at all in terms of knowing if it is not handling correctly to spot a minor fault before it becomes a larger one. I may have to accept that or upskill. Isnt a sign of stupidity making the same mistake over and over? But all I can say is before it happened I did not have any real signs in the days/weeks leading up to it. Im not sure what you meant by what am I planning to do when I get the geometry done? In terms of a settlement from Porsche head office... I have received a happy settlement yes. I have suffered no cost.... I have some compo & future goodwill so I continue to use the OPC I have been. I am due to go in and meet the manager - and will heed someones advice on here from earlier that its best to play nice in these situations. All joking aside - I have appreciated all comments as I've learnt plenty.

I know that no one really cares too much - but as I got some good advice on here just finishing off. I went to a suspension specialist. This is AFTER Porsche have had the car back in following the original blow out. And paying for everything but not admitting they didn't do the alignment etc correctly. 3 of the 4 tyres balancing was out. One by as much as 45g on the rear where they had been counterbalanced with weights and on more than one place round the inside of the wheel. Which I am told is very shoddy work. Of the 14 areas on the before measurement on then alignment - 6 were completely out (camber & toe). Obviously corrected now. The steering wheel was not level either. That has also been requested. Only cost £100 so not bad. Thanks for the advice. I am just so disappointed by the constant poor service. Thats now OPC Bristol & Cardiff!

Just watched some of your fights and I feel knackered already. Is there good prize money in the sport? Idle curiosity as I wouldn't last 5 seconds in the ring before screaming for my mummy.

Some elements of this thread remind me of an incident I had several years ago with an Audi TT. Shortly after a main dealer service which included alignment check, I went to Kwik Fit for a new set of tyres. They advised that the geo was so far out that they suspected the car had suffered suspension damage. When presented with the read outs, the Audi dealer immediately refunded the geometry costs; I went back to the original dealer who inspected the car and acknowledged there had been damage and they replaced part of the rear suspension under warranty. I probably over reacted and immediately got rid of the car. If I were a bit more rational and in the OP's position, I'd certainly go to one of the recognised specialist Porsche geometry independents to ensure there are absolutely zero defects remaining on the vehicle. I think that's what you've done but peace of mind will be difficult to achieve after the POTENTIAL of what might have flowed from this incident. Hoping all is now resolved and you can move on with confidence in your car. Peter