997 GT3 RS good price? - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Nick Whale sports cars direct, have a orange RS with 6k miles for 72k, cheapest i have seen?

Have you read the history? Total re-shell.

There's always a reason!

ah thought it was cheap.

nothing comes cheap these days..always a story to be told....................get what yah pay for

I've been on to the web-site - couldn't see the history? Where do I find that? all I could see was "All vehicles are HPI approved and a certificate can be provided."

If it was done on track and they didn't claim on insurance (ouch!) then it won't have been recorded by HPI. If it is showing on HPI then be VERY wary as everyone who HPIs it in the future will see its been in a big smash (and most of them will walk away)

What does HPI approved really mean ??? Bit crap that the advert doesn't mention anything about the crash - how bad was it ? http://www.nickwhalesportscarsdirect.co.uk/stockli...

'approved' is the wrong word really. It means they run a check through HPI which should show up if there's ever been a total loss accident or if it has outstanding finance on it. One would guess that the fact the advert doesn't mention it means it'll come up as 'clean' on HPI...

leave it where it is and buy a straight one....its a small world in the RS world.

kryten said: If it was done on track and they didn't claim on insurance (ouch!) then it won't have been recorded by HPI. If it is showing on HPI then be VERY wary as everyone who HPIs it in the future will see its been in a big smash (and most of them will walk away) Surely if it's been reshelled, etc and is at a price to reflect this fact, then what's the problem? Unless it's trying to masquerade as something which it's not?!

Fergus....wouldnt you rather have a no story perfect car for just a few grand more ???....

Maybe you should be considering the Tuthill 3.0. RS that's in stock on the same page and similar price - looks fab.

sambaman said: Fergus....wouldnt you rather have a no story perfect car for just a few grand more ???.... Keith - certainly would, but a reshelled car at the right money doesn't have to be a dog....

no ones said it is ??????...just rather buy the right car..not a reshelled one.

A reshell implies a material lateral shock, this may have been enough to cause the crank to crush bearings, an outsider clearly, but who knows what else has been compromised.

I'd say that a re-shelled car wants to be more than a 'few grand' cheaper than a straight car. More like 20% cheaper and then you could possibly say it was worth living with.

fergus said: Surely if it's been reshelled, etc and is at a price to reflect this fact, then what's the problem? Unless it's trying to masquerade as something which it's not?! I didn't say there's a problem but you will find that when something like that appears on an HPI check _most_ buyers will walk (eg if it was Cat C/D insurance write-off) because is proof the car has been in a very large accident and most people will look at a clean car 'for a few grand extra' as the better deal. Having had an Impreza that I rolled on track, I was extremely glad they wrote it off rather than try to fix it!!

I was at the trackday that RS was on, it was Brands hatch on 5/10/08. I have a photo on my phone of it don't ask me to put it on as I am crap. The state of the car in one word pancake ! Jamal

sorry the date was 05/10/07

Was it re-shelled back at the factory? Or in an OPC over here? Many of the works rally cars were re-shelled back in the 60's and 70's.. A new shell needn't be the end of the world for a car, provided it's done correctly... I'd be very tempted if it was nearer the 60k mark...

what a place pistonheads is. all the info you want plus a member who was at the scene ! fantastic.

cayman-black said: what a place pistonheads is. all the info you want plus a member who was at the scene ! fantastic. ...And the "mug" that purchased the car in question from an OPC, and after much research and many investigations, was horrified to learn of the history and then left astounded at the response from the Porsche network. Having purchased a number of desirable cars - generally from Italy - I still cannot believe how poor the Porsche network. Sadly - I'll never purchase another one. More than happy to pass on the information to anybody considering purchasing this vehicle.

[quote=DOOG]Was it re-shelled back at the factory? Or in an OPC over here? quote] That's an interesting question......

DOOG said: Was it re-shelled back at the factory? Or in an OPC over here? Many of the works rally cars were re-shelled back in the 60's and 70's.. A new shell needn't be the end of the world for a car, provided it's done correctly... I'd be very tempted if it was nearer the 60k mark... See here http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0... I'm right in thinking that this is the same car?

GreatGranny said: DOOG said: Was it re-shelled back at the factory? Or in an OPC over here? Many of the works rally cars were re-shelled back in the 60's and 70's.. A new shell needn't be the end of the world for a car, provided it's done correctly... I'd be very tempted if it was nearer the 60k mark... See here http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0... I'm right in thinking that this is the same car? No it's not, although it's referred to towards the end of the thread.

After reading this, I think I'll stick to the gamble of buying at auction. At least there i know I'm taking a risk.

I will post the details - and pictures - but just need to be clear what I can and cant say. I'll have it posted in the next couple of days.

Anjum said: I will post the details - and pictures - but just need to be clear what I can and cant say. I'll have it posted in the next couple of days. Love to hear what excuse the dealer had for forgetting to mention the car had been rolled and reshelled and then later saying it didn't matter anyway.

sjn2004 said: Anjum said: I will post the details - and pictures - but just need to be clear what I can and cant say. I'll have it posted in the next couple of days. Love to hear what excuse the dealer had for forgetting to mention the car had been rolled and reshelled and then later saying it didn't matter anyway. HPI is no absolute guarantee, as with the honesty of opc's. Having bought a bmw M3 Cab from a main dealer and experienced a similar situation I now honestly believe that you are far better off buying from an independant with a proper ppi. Main dealer, they have the money to fight a claim. Indie does not and would not want the financial aggravation and hassle. as an aside, I would rather pay the extra for an original car than a reshelled car. Why because there are very few people I would trust to reshell a car properly. 60's and 70's cars are different, reshelled by the factory and compared to modern day cars they have f*ck all in them. So hardly rocket science. Even I could reshell a mk1 cortina and most people I know would run a mile when I pick up a spanner.;)

graeme36s said: sjn2004 said: Anjum said: I will post the details - and pictures - but just need to be clear what I can and cant say. I'll have it posted in the next couple of days. Love to hear what excuse the dealer had for forgetting to mention the car had been rolled and reshelled and then later saying it didn't matter anyway. HPI is no absolute guarantee, as with the honesty of opc's. Having bought a bmw M3 Cab from a main dealer and experienced a similar situation I now honestly believe that you are far better off buying from an independant with a proper ppi. Main dealer, they have the money to fight a claim. Indie does not and would not want the financial aggravation and hassle. as an aside, I would rather pay the extra for an original car than a reshelled car. Why because there are very few people I would trust to reshell a car properly. 60's and 70's cars are different, reshelled by the factory and compared to modern day cars they have f*ck all in them. So hardly rocket science. Even I could reshell a mk1 cortina and most people I know would run a mile when I pick up a spanner.;) I know what you mean, about 2 years ago I was looking at an X5 4.8iS at an official dealer (approved car etc). Car looked nice, took it for a test drive got out at the end, the sun started to shine and I was about 30secs from pushing the button on it when I noticed some very faint silver paint on one of the black wheel arch surrounds. Took a closer look and it was on all four, looked at the rear and you could clearly see filler (still with spatula marks) between the body panel and bumper. Pointed this out to the salesman who seemed to be blind, wouldn't admit to anything. Asked him to recheck history etc and call me. He never called me back the next day so I called him, wouldn't give me an explantion just said it may have happened in the "body shop" and basically stopped the conversation.

So this was orginally your car Anjum ? Which you brought from a OPC?

f k me ....

Quite frankly that is scary. I have a deposit on a new car but I am not looking toward to dealing with any opc.

It seems that the horse rustlers and thieves have moved up market. Its very tempting to never, never, never, trust a car salesperson again.

COR WOW What a nightmare you had...So sorry to hear about this matey. Cheers Pocty

An utter disgrace, Porsche should hold their head in shame for they own the brand and it's the brand that is getting damaged. OPC Leicester should also hang their head in shame the whole debacle is beyond belief....actually, saddly it's not. Watchdog would be my advice, I suggest you speak to Asbo as there is a theme forming...

what an utter disgrace - u should really get this published by a mainstream motoring mag, like EVO or Autocar (ie read by potential Porsche purchasers) - beggars belief really.

Oh my god, that is dreadful

very sorry to hear about this .. completely outrageous .. I would have sued them all the way to hell ..

Anjum, thanks for all the info. absolutley disgusting what happened to you, so sorry!

Scarey stuff but why cant I see pictures

Hmm strange isn't it that OPC's can sell a car with a whole new f king shell but if you have Bosch windscreen wipers you can't get a warranty from them. Anjum I'd be on to every motoring magazine I could think of over that one, totally shocking.

That salesman from OPC Leicester hasn't been on here for a while....... Anjum, that is a truly horrific story. And here's me quibbling 'cos OPC's Leicester and Nottm can't be arsed to 'phone me back about a touch-up pen.

Thanks for the update.. Truly shocking.. I've noticed the car is gone from the Whale website now..

Anjum I feel as gutted for you as I was for my sister when she discovered the truth about her newly purchased M3 Cab from Stratstone Doncaster. (after she wrote to the previous owner and he telephoned her and explained what had happened to the car). We paid £28K for an 05 M3 Cab in Feb 08 when in november 07 it had sustained over £20K of body damage. It had been repaired at a BMW main dealer in Yorkshire. At what should have been over 50% of the value in november 07 it should have been written off. It was not and the car was not recorded on the register and was hpi clear. You and I both know that both the opc and the obc knew exactly the extent of the damage and quite happily tucked us up. The problem is you cannot emphatically prove without doubt that they knew and here in lies the stumbling block. Thankfully we only lost £8K in four months of ownership (which if you say it really quickly seems not to smart as much) and I guess you lost a fair bit more. My uneducated view was that if you buy from a main dealer and perhaps pay that bit more money you are assured of its provenance and quality. What this did teach me is that Indie's althought not imune are far less inclined to pull a stunt like that. They don't have the back up financially to fight potentially expensive legal battles and would not want to risk their reputation. Plus the most important lesson of all and I apologise for shouting. NEVER BUY ANY CAR FROM ANY DEALER OFFICIAL OR INDEPENDANT WITHOUT A FULL AND THOROUGH PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION CARRIED OUT BY A SPECIALIST THAT YOU FEEL CONFIDENT WITH. Hopefully our experiences will serve to prevent a few other ph'ers getting screwed.

graeme36s said: NEVER BUY ANY CAR FROM ANY DEALER OFFICIAL OR INDEPENDANT WITHOUT A FULL AND THOROUGH PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION CARRIED OUT BY A SPECIALIST THAT YOU FEEL CONFIDENT WITH. But surely Porsches own 111 point check is intended to make independent inspection unnecessary ? (clearly it doesn't..)

DOOG said: graeme36s said: NEVER BUY ANY CAR FROM ANY DEALER OFFICIAL OR INDEPENDANT WITHOUT A FULL AND THOROUGH PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION CARRIED OUT BY A SPECIALIST THAT YOU FEEL CONFIDENT WITH. But surely Porsches own 111 point check is intended to make independent inspection unnecessary ? (clearly it doesn't..) Unfortunatley, the two 111 point checks that my car had (one of which I paid for) didn't turn up anything out of the ordinary. Sadly - they're worthless.

Sad when you get to the stage of buying a £100K car from a OPC requires a solicitor to be involved in some kind of legal agreement before you sign on the dotted line

The 111 point checks are a total waste of time,if they check three points of the 111 they are doing well!! Sorry to hear about your troubles I made a OPC have a car back a few years ago.

Buffalo Girls said: Sad when you get to the stage of buying a £100K car from a OPC requires a solicitor to be involved in some kind of legal agreement before you sign on the dotted line And whats also Sad is when you end up out of pocket for something which is Porsche's cock up, They seem to have a habbit of f king over customers with it being either selling reshelled cars or wriggling out of warranty repairs. It would seem that unless your actually prepared to go the whole hog and see it through to court then they will f k you off as they see appropriate. Total w kers.

I Aspire to go in to an OPC and spend 100k, and I probably will next year. But.... I am so shocked to hear this, My car has had a 111 point check 2 weeks ago, and Now I'm thinking - do I really have piece of mind? A friend of mine has a similiar story with Mercedes, bought a Brand New ML320 CDI, to find that panels had been replaced. It took 6 months to come to a solution, and it wasnt that favourable! You just need to put this behind you

That is f king unbelievable. I really feel for you. People always bang on about paying a few grand extra for an OPC car due to the benefits that in theory go with an OPC supplied car. Always a little sceptical of this advice and this, along with a few other recent posts, confirm that the OPC really are quite happy to sell you a car and then forget how to treat a valued?! customer. s of the highest order. Hope they get what they deserve. Edited by baptistsan on Wednesday 10th June 22:24

That's one of the most shocking things I've ever read. If i were you I wouldn't give up. Write to the papers, write to all the car mags, write to that Watchdog programme, write to Top Gear, Fifth Gear. (The only person I wouldn't write to is Mike Brewer <t t >). I bought my C2S from OPC Leicester. A few weeks later I had it in Reading HQ (my local) to ask about the oil consumption. He put it on the ramp, called me over and showed me some 'unacceptably excessive' corrosion on a brake pipe which he described as dangerous! Reading sorted it for me but from what I can gather got Leicester to pay the bill and I think simultaneously gave them a b king. Sounds like an OPC to avoid to me.... Cheers RS Edited by M3RMS on Wednesday 10th June 22:48

Totally appalling, I am stunned at what I have read..... OPC Leicester, you will reap what you sow....truly shocking! g

It's been suggested, but why haven't you taken this to a mainstream car forum, online or printed? Or have you?

I feel for you. Compare and contrast OPC Leicester's behaviour and Henry F's recent declaration about his white GT3 being ex rental. Who would you rather buy from? Food for thought...

That is a truly horrendous story I'm a long standing, very happy, Porsche customer. They've looked after me and my Porsches (old and new) impeccably for more than 25 years. I have no grievances and even like the new warranty. But, for that to happen these days is absolutely outrageous, and very damaging to Porsche. The more they can be seen to do to rectify this situation the better. However, don't tar all OPCs with the same brush. My own experience with several OPCs has been exemplorary.

Edited by Rico on Wednesday 10th June 23:33

Anjum said: I will post the details - and pictures - but just need to be clear what I can and cant say. I'll have it posted in the next couple of days. Sorry - it's a bit long. Get comfy - and enjoy the warmth of my Porsche experience: 11/05/07 Previous owner acquired vehicle – orange Porsche reg EA07 VMC . 05/10/07, car rolled car during track day at Brands Hatch – damage see pictures. Owner uninsured. Local OPC declares car uneconomical to repair - so owner sells to a bodyshop. Pics Below: At Track You tell me where? June 2008: AW sees car on internet on Porsche approved used cars Centre Leicester then owned by Nick Whale Group, approaches Porsche, as their website says “Mileage and vehicle provenance checks including insurance write off/accident damage** “, he believes the car to be in A1 condition and pays £100,000 (i.e. over list) on 16/06/08. At PCL: When picking car up from Porsche Centre Leicester, AW notices during on-site inspection, drivers side wing mirror trim is broken, despite assurances over the phone that the car is immaculate. It is agreed that this will be repaired on return from pre-planned visit to Germany and Belgium. June 2008 (i.e. less than two days later) Rear windscreen seal fails en route. This is temporarily held in place by tape, performed in Germany. Porsche Centre Leicester notified whilst AW is in Germany, who help to arrange repairs on my return. AW also notes that dashboard is very “noisy” – and informs Porsche Centre Leicester. July 2008. P C Leister unable to co-ordinate with P C London (Chiswick). AW establishes that PC London (Chiswick) are not authorised to perform repairs on RS models. AW then arranges with PC Reading directly. July 2008. AW receives car back from Porsche Centre Reading (unclean, with substantial amounts of plaint flecks in the interior with hand prints all over the interior of the rear windscreen). Notices issues with paint, front and rear (overspray, quality, hardening – or lack of). Photographs taken (front bumper and rear engine air inlets) and reported paint “runs” to Porsche Centre Reading , who confirm that paint issues were present when they worked on car. Paint Issues: Nov 2008 On reviewing Maintenance documentation, AW notices that the documentation is new and does not have original or previous owners information. I am also made aware of rumours that Porsche was a ‘write off’ through trade contact. Nov 2008 Porsche Centre West London do a ‘111 Point check’ – all OK (with exception of tyre tread). Nov 2008 AW calls previous owner, to put his mind at rest as worried about paint defects etc – however, previous owner confirms that the car was damaged beyond economical repair. AW also traces who chain of “keepers” of EA07 VMC – including the non-Porsche approved repairers – all the way to PCL. Nov 2008 AW called the Principle of Porsche Centre Leicester, to ask tell him of findings and asking him what he was prepared to do remedy the situation. Principle of Porsche Centre Leicester confirms that car was not purchased from last registered owner, but from “someone else”. Nov 2008. It is suggested that paint defects are down to me – and that I had the car resprayed and am responsible for the poor condition of the paintwork. At this point, I am not getting any satisfaction from the dealer in question – and am alarmed at where conversations are going. Nov 2008. AW appoints a solicitor. The solicitor’s advice is to immediately reject the car and cease any finance payments. However, as there was finance on the car, case is with Porsche Finance who technically supplied the vehicle not the OPC. Solicitor sends rejection letter to Finance, OPC and Porsche GB. V5 is signed back over to dealer. AW sends the car up to Porsche Centre Leicester so they can inspect the car at their request, along with all vehicle documentation, spare keys, services book etc. Their inspection (carried out by Chartwell) shows minor paint damage “and light, minor damage to the roof rails”. OPC do not accept rejection, Finance and Porsche GB do not respond. DEC 2008/JAN 2009 AW engages a Porsche specialist to perform an independent inspection. In summary, the findings are that it has been re-shelled. Jan/Feb 2009. Contact Porsche GB and Porsche AG (Germany) to find out when and to whom the shell was sold to. Porsche GB and Germany refuse to release any information as it is a legal matter. Mar/Apr 2009. Barrister advises we get another inspection done to check how well the re-shell was done (i.e. torque settings for all of the bolts, tolerances etc.). However no inspection engineer(s) can get information from Porsche as to factory fitting requirements, despite previous assurances that this information can be obtained by the factory. Mar 2009 – Finally Porsche Finance respond! PF refuse to write off any of the arrears since the rejection and issue a default letter. Sytner take over Porsche Centre Leics, from Nick Whale group and say that they are not responsible for problem. PCL offer to buy car back at current market value. Much discussion between solicitors as to what ‘current’ means. May 2008, AW finally accepts a figure substantially lower than what he paid for car, and has to pay for his own legal bills and all inspections. The alternative would have been protracted court battle, with the possible risk of still ending up with the car and huge arrears and the black mark of the default notice over my head all the time. Porsche Centre Leicester (now under new ownership) in my opinion failed to appropriately check the provenance, which brings into question what levels of checks the OPC dealer network actually makes. You may wonder how a car that was re-shelled with a bodyshell supplied by Porsche AG/ Porsche GB, supplied to a non-approved Porsche repairer was sold in the OPC network? This also has implications for Porsche Finance, who financed a car which is now worth materially less than a original, non-accident repaired example. June 2009 – Nick Whale contact me asking me for V5 etc………. Frankly - with what I've experienced - I will never own another Porsche just to stay away from the detritus associated with the brand. I lived the dream - and had a full on nightmare. Edited by Anjum on Wednesday 10th June 18:04 If you can edit this so that the pictures display - please feel free to! Anjum Edited by Anjum on Thursday 11th June 10:20

I'm thinking on the hoof here but only a wee percentage of pork purchasers hear about this kind of thing. I certainly wouldn't have heard about it ouside of forum land. We can only guess what proportion of new cayman, boxster, cayenne and 911 buyers read forums and so see the big downside to pork ownership (well, what can happen) but it ain't great. I'd like to see more publicity given to situations such as anjum's. Only then, and only if it does impact on reputation and so sales, will pcgb take notice. This isn't a new tune I'm singing but it's the only way. I don't believe they're all bad and certainly a lot is down to the individuals that make the business. The thing is that service appearsxto err on the poor side and is definitely inconsistent. Geneve has a great relationship with his local dealer but for most it may be a first or second purchase. With that, due to the apparent inconsistency, it's pot luck! Even if you go by a recommendation you may well deal with a different chap or a new principal. Margins are high on these new cars and service should be patamount for the dealers. Name and shame in non-forum world may make pcgb think about introducing some higher standards accross the board.

Just read this thread for the first time and it is totally disgusting. IMO this has damaged my 'opinion' of Porsche, their marque and their dealerships and I'm one of the biggest Porsche fans there is. Its beyond a joke that it is simply embarrassing. They should be publically humiliated over this. If I was you I'd ring Jeremy Clarkson.....he'll have a field day with it!!!

So it has a brand new shell this car could be better than new i have not read the whole post but i have helped to carry out a few re-shells years ago.If the work is done properly it is well worth the money.

gt2russ said: So it has a brand new shell this car could be better than new i have not read the whole post but i have helped to carry out a few re-shells years ago.If the work is done properly it is well worth the money. I think you are wrong here. At best a little mis-guided. If you take a 20 year old car and re-shell it with a brand new factory body shell then yes, I would agree with you. The car probably increases in value because you`re not chasing corrosion or previous accident damage around. The same is true of a race car. We recently spent £5k on our 996 GT3`s bodyshell sorting out 8 years of hard racing, stress fractures and general wear and tear. In an ideal world I`d much rather have simply re-shelled the old girl but that wasn`t an option. With something as new as a 997 GT3RS you wouldn`t expect there to be any significant corrosion issues or bodyshell fatigue and so a re-shell wouldn`t be seen as beneficial. In my humble opinion of course and I bow to the superior knowledge of others. Henry

Henry-F said: gt2russ said: So it has a brand new shell this car could be better than new i have not read the whole post but i have helped to carry out a few re-shells years ago.If the work is done properly it is well worth the money. I think you are wrong here. At best a little mis-guided. If you take a 20 year old car and re-shell it with a brand new factory body shell then yes, I would agree with you. The car probably increases in value because you`re not chasing corrosion or previous accident damage around. The same is true of a race car. We recently spent £5k on our 996 GT3`s bodyshell sorting out 8 years of hard racing, stress fractures and general wear and tear. In an ideal world I`d much rather have simply re-shelled the old girl but that wasn`t an option. With something as new as a 997 GT3RS you wouldn`t expect there to be any significant corrosion issues or bodyshell fatigue and so a re-shell wouldn`t be seen as beneficial. In my humble opinion of course and I bow to the superior knowledge of others. Henry Well you of course you are the expert Henry but with your love of the almost hand built cars surely you can see the advantage of a car that has been rebuilt from a new shell with perfection by a true porsche expert or dont they have recalls on new cars anymore? have a look at the colour match on your 993 turbo front pu and you will see the difference between an expert and an other or have you not noticed . Edited by gt2russ on Saturday 20th June 00:39

? I think there are likely to be far more issues with a re-shelled car in terms of assembly errors than with a car bolted together in the purpose built environment that is the Porsche factory. Henry

Henry-F said: ? I think there are likely to be far more issues with a re-shelled car in terms of assembly errors than with a car bolted together in the purpose built environment that is the Porsche factory. Henry Anyone can mop a car and take a photo of it, surely the hand built car has more soul.

Flatting and polishing a car takes out small scratches and nibs but it doesn`t change the colour of the paint. Am I missing something ? H.

I too had a poor experience when I bought my 997 from an OPC, although nowhere near as bad as this one . My feelings are that I'll never use the one I bought my car from again and am now seriously considering not using any other OPC. They lied to me, blamed another department, but I do have a letter of apology from them. And the 111 point check.............that's w k too. I noticed that my coolant level was on the minimum mark after 30 miles of ownership. I topped it off and no further loss whatsoever. And, oh yes, the rear number plate fell off as the fitter had used double-sided tape over the old dirty tape.....So did they do the 4 wheel alignment that they promised they would?......who knows! I firmly believe that although margins are tight, they're not performing the basic checks or doing good prep work to save themselves a few quid. I'm going to take my car to 911 Virgin/Henry when work is due, it's got to be worth the 200 mile round journey to feel that you hadn't had the dildo well lubed up at the chip-and-pin machine! Edited by Need For Speed on Saturday 20th June 11:10

Henry-F said: ? I think there are likely to be far more issues with a re-shelled car in terms of assembly errors than with a car bolted together in the purpose built environment that is the Porsche factory. Henry Henry is spot on - this car was reshelled OUTSIDE of the OPC network (who knows what torques setttings were used etc.), and somehow it made its way back into the OPC network where it was sold to me. The used Porsche warrentee makes for interesting reading. As I understand it, the old shell would have to be bereturned to the factory, via Porsche GB. The old shell is then destroyed by factory. A new shell is then stamped with the previous chassis number (so that they are identical) - and the new shell is sent to UK to non-OPC dealer. Allegedly this trail is not available.......

Never had any problems with porsche, myself. But, I bet there's a few people in Porsche and other OPCs watching this thread and dearly wishing it would disappear.

gt2russ said: So it has a brand new shell this car could be better than new i have not read the whole post but i have helped to carry out a few re-shells years ago.If the work is done properly it is well worth the money. It could well be, that a car that has been re-shelled is better than production line, pretty unlikely in most cases, but that’s not the point is it. If the car has been Crashed and re-shelled, No one will want to pay the same price as one with a good history. There are some that would be happy to pay, say 20% less and expect the car to always be worth less money. But the important thing is, You know what you are buying. And pay the price accordingly, if you still want it. When a car is Crashed badly enough to need a shell, as this Orange GT3 rs. How many parts are put back on, that still have minor damage / twists / Un-detected fractures etc. Its not just the shell that’s taken a beating, but everything attached to it. There is also the ‘Unknown’ damage. What if this car had sat on its roof with the engine screaming, broken engine oil line etc. Unlikely, but again, a good reasons not to be paying top money for it.

gt2russ said: Henry-F said: gt2russ said: So it has a brand new shell this car could be better than new i have not read the whole post but i have helped to carry out a few re-shells years ago.If the work is done properly it is well worth the money. I think you are wrong here. At best a little mis-guided. If you take a 20 year old car and re-shell it with a brand new factory body shell then yes, I would agree with you. The car probably increases in value because you`re not chasing corrosion or previous accident damage around. The same is true of a race car. We recently spent £5k on our 996 GT3`s bodyshell sorting out 8 years of hard racing, stress fractures and general wear and tear. In an ideal world I`d much rather have simply re-shelled the old girl but that wasn`t an option. With something as new as a 997 GT3RS you wouldn`t expect there to be any significant corrosion issues or bodyshell fatigue and so a re-shell wouldn`t be seen as beneficial. In my humble opinion of course and I bow to the superior knowledge of others. Henry Well you of course you are the expert Henry but with your love of the almost hand built cars surely you can see the advantage of a car that has been rebuilt from a new shell with perfection by a true porsche expert or dont they have recalls on new cars anymore? have a look at the colour match on your 993 turbo front pu and you will see the difference between an expert and an other or have you not noticed . Edited by gt2russ on Saturday 20th June 00:39 If the re-shelling was as poorly done as the paint job then I very much doubt it gets close to an original factory built car. Check out the pictures.

I've just caught up with this fascinating thread and, frankly, I'm stunned. One hears about things like this, but I've not read a first hand account before and seen the photographic evidence. How can it be legal for a proper Porsche dealer to sell a car that's been through that kind of damage without fully disclosing the car's history? And worse, once the situation was brought to light, it still wasn't put right by Porsche GB with the resulting legal action leaving the owner out of pocket by what must be many thousands of pounds. How can anyone trust a Porsche main dealer again? I guess I will not be replacing my R8 with a GT3 or a Porsche of any kind for that matter.

The point I'm interested in, is how a reshelled car makes it's way back into the system after being repaired outside the network. There must have been some extremely blind eyes being turned for this to happen

crusty said: The point I'm interested in, is how a reshelled car makes it's way back into the system after being repaired outside the network. There must have been some extremely blind eyes being turned for this to happen This really is the crux of the argument.. It highlights how good the 111 point check really is... (ie worthless) As it goes, if i was having a car reshelled away from the factory i'd be happier for it to be done outside the OPC network. I can think of several specialists who could carry out the job to a factory standard. One of whom built a certain BRDC Directors rally car.. The mechanics of the re-shell aren't the real issue... The real issue is that the re-shell wasn't disclosed.. And it was passed off as a low mileage pristine car and priced accordingly. Sickening at best. Criminal at worst..

DOOG said: crusty said: The point I'm interested in, is how a reshelled car makes it's way back into the system after being repaired outside the network. There must have been some extremely blind eyes being turned for this to happen This really is the crux of the argument.. It highlights how good the 111 point check really is... (ie worthless) As it goes, if i was having a car reshelled away from the factory i'd be happier for it to be done outside the OPC network. I can think of several specialists who could carry out the job to a factory standard. One of whom built a certain BRDC Directors rally car.. The mechanics of the re-shell aren't the real issue... The real issue is that the re-shell wasn't disclosed.. And it was passed off as a low mileage pristine car and priced accordingly. Sickening at best. Criminal at worst.. So what do you think would be a fair/appropriate outcome, given the facts?

a fair outcome to the situation? as the meercat says -simples..... opc & porsche finance refund the purchaser full amount opc take the car back in stock & price it accordingly with a fully disclosed history or simply send it to auction & absorb the loss. as a business owner myself i understand its very hard to take a hit as big as this but really the opc needs to have a word with the company directors. if they loose say 20 grand on this deal the loss would be hard to write off but against al the bad publicity? i would probably wager there is someone high up at the opc in question weighing up the options. the thread isn't directly linked in title to the dealer, the amount of porsche customers who read the forums on pistonheads is probably quite a small so the decision is to let the bad publicity to play out. imho this is the wrong decision for the company to take but they will have made their decision by now. as a comparison take this example ; one of my staff wanted to trade in her old fiesta for a brand new one & asked me to do the deal. the old car was a wreck, obvious serious accident damage, no history & in very poor order both mechanicly in appearance. the salesman didnt even inspect the car simply asking the milage & year & gave a trade in price from the "book". now i couldn't believe they were actually going to take the car in but the day came to pick up the new car & listen to this-the wheel fell off! after ringing me obviously upset she then told me of various knocking noises the car was making in the lead up to the big day (this should tell you something!) so i went to have a look. the alloy was wrecked, the bumper was cracked & the control arm had taken a beating. so what to do? stick the remoulded spare steal wheel on & take the car anyways. as an honest kind of bloke i even told the salesman what had happened but he didnt seem to be bothered & the deal went ahead as planned now as a 53 plate car the chances were that they were going to send the car to auction anyways but i've since asked someone at the dealer what hapened. sure enough the salesman got a roasting for taking the car in but they simply sent it to auction & absorbed the loss. if a ford garage can take this stance why not an opc? admittingly the trade in value they gave the car (2 grand) against what they would of got at auction (surely no more than £250) isn't a massive loss but on a deal for a 10 grand car? a loss is a loss perhaps porsche should do their 111 point check before the car is taken in, they may find they pay a little bit more attention to whats coming on to their forecourt

Anjum said: So what do you think would be a fair/appropriate outcome, given the facts? 100% refund and written apology (plus £1k to charity of your choice), not that any of that is going to happen

Full refund plus any legal/inspection costs incurred.

DOOG said: Full refund plus any legal/inspection costs incurred. Without question, and the sooner the better, otherwise this could escalate. The final outcome should resolve any disadvantages you may have suffered, and restore everyone elses confidence in the brand.

The first thing I would do is send a link to this thread, and then threaten to speak to papers, TV stations, and then Jeremy Clarkson at The Times. As stated previously, he would have a ball with this one as he's not the biggest fan of Pork! I'm sure the relevent parties would s t themselves of the bad publicity they might encounter. Ps are you any good at poker ?

http://www.porsche.com/uk/approvedused/au-porschea... " Owning a Porsche should always be a very special experience, which is why when you buy a Porsche Approved used car we do everything we can to make sure that it really is as good as it looks." Did they? *Everything* the could? "This means you don’t have to worry about whether the car has been properly tested, because our expert Porsche technicians have already put your car through a stringent set of checks for safety, reliability and performance." Looks like one does need to worry. "You also have the reassurance of knowing that each Porsche Approved car has a 12 month renewable warranty."" I don't think the warranty was actually renewable was it? So that's from the PGB webby. Those are their promises to *you* the buying public. But of course, they are empty promises. You don't buy a 2nd hand car from PGB, but from a dealer. So your contract is not with the people making the promise. There is no "consideration", thus you cannot sue against that promise (should you consider it broken). If it were held that there was any kind of agreement between the purchaser and PGB, one might be able to sue against the promise as a tort. Did PGB have a duty of care? However, it's all meaningless as has been described here by the guy who bought the car (Anjum??). If the dealer and PGB don't give (which they didn't), then suing is not a preferred route. So they came to a settlement, we all think it's s te, but the purchasor decided to move on and take the loss. Good decision. Our little forum will have no effect on PGB, we are pissing in the wind. Bert

I think we should create template letter to Goss. We all personalise it with our names and addresses and send a copy to him. We'll only get a "no comment" back. But if he gets a sackfull, it might influence him in some way in the future. But actually I can't be arsed. I don't give a toss about PGB. Bert

BertBert said: I think we should create template letter to Goss. We all personalise it with our names and addresses and send a copy to him. We'll only get a "no comment" back. But if he gets a sackfull, it might influence him in some way in the future. But actually I can't be arsed. I don't give a toss about PGB. Bert quite, it's a horrific tale but i can't be bothered either. why is that ? because porsche gb don't give a toss about the buyer profile i hold, ie a current/ex porsche customer. my impression is that they are too focused in chasing 'conquest' customers than they are at looking after the party faithful. i would imagine that this policy has hurt them badly during the current recession, after all it was the long-term loyal porsche enthusiasts who kept buying the product after the bubble burst in 1989. i won't say i'll never buy another new porsche, although the only car in their line-up to tempt me to loosen my wallet is the gen2 gt3, but with tales like this i certainly won't be buying a used car from an opc. and pgb will ultimately be all the poorer for this breach of trust/faith. the original poster has done us a great service in drawing our attention to this event. i am sure he has moved on, and rightly so. Edited by seawise on Wednesday 24th June 15:17

BertBert said: But actually I can't be arsed. I don't give a toss about PGB. Bert Nor does PGB give a toss about you / us - as is becoming increasingly clear.

Good grief, what an appalling story. That fat b d Goss at Porsche GB should stop eating and sort this out. This company has become unbelievably arrogant and although I love (and have paid for) their products, based on this kind of customer service they probably deserve bankrupcy. I remember the way they brushed me off with the problems I had on my 996RS wheels - a**holes.... cue 430 Spider. Roll on credit crunch - they may learn a thing or two. These idiots are even more pompous than Ferrari. Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Wednesday 22 July 16:33

The problem as always is Porsche GB. I wouldn't buy a car through these tossers.

I think this car, EA07 VMC, is now at Gmund cars with POA. I wonder what the asking price is???????

Jon, We had the 996 GT3 RS in question on sale or return many moons ago, you are looking in the file of cars we have had/sold in the past (you can tell because all the cars have no price - and it lists about 200 cars at any one time). Andrew

I Reckon Hendon Way Motors should sell it. its a typical HWM's car. 1 Careful Elderly female owner, only used it to take her cat to the Vets, and sometimes to Bingo. Edited by 98C4S on Monday 3rd August 22:01

Geneve said: Anjum, Sorry my issue was not with you or your justifiable grievances, but with the assumption that all OPCs are the same. Agree, however, that this situation does inflict damage on the whole network if consumers cannot rely on the support of Porsche GB. I have a very longstanding relationship with Porsche, but they really do shoot themselves in the foot sometimes I know we are not talking Pork but my sisters BMW M3 Cab a few pages back. But in truth forget your rose tinted spectacles, these OPC's or OBC's are there to sell a product. Not because they are passionate about the product it is a means to the end. Yes I spoke to my solicitor but from a BMW persepctive I could prove nothing. I chopped my other halfs X5 4.6iS in at a good price. When we arrived he did not even bother to look at Kerry's X5. He brought the M3 out and parked it around the side because he did not want to run the risk of another customer bumping into the car so the car was in the shade. Although in Feb it should not have made much difference. Was unable to show me the V5 logbook as he already had sent it off to register the car in our name. From memory Alison my sister should have been the third owner but turned out to be the fifth. We should have cottoned on that something was up but we did not as you are buying from an official main dealer. I am not sure that Porsche's computer is the same but when I wrang another BMW main dealer for a part ex on a Z4M Cab it gave them service history and no information about the major accident damage that the car had sustained. They quoted me a reasonable part ex and only noted that the car had had a fair few owners. From that moment on I knew there was no point going the legal route as there was no way in a court of law I could prove that they where fully aware that they where selling a badly damaged product. As I said before in my original post. The only way to protect your self from unscupulous dealers is to have the car inspected by an independant that you feel confident in. Since that event we have bought Alison a Z4M Cab with 27 miles on the clock so rightly or wrongly it did not get inpsected. My other halves 993C2S bought from Paragon, I trust Mark implicitly and my 993 GT2 that was inspected by Fearnsport and a mate who knows Porsche bodywork inside out and given a 100% clean bill of health. Apart from two Nissan Notes if I where ever to buy a car for a chunk of money from an OPC the car would be independantly inspected, even if it was brand new. I know of one pr**k who used to work for me that spun a 996GT2 on a roudabout and on it's PDI, tore a wheel off and damaged the suspension and maybe the rear suspension mounting points. Bet the chap or chapess who bought that car brand new never got to hear about it. Know good with latin but I believe the phrase is "BUYER BE WHERE"

graeme36s said: Know good with latin but I believe the phrase is "BUYER BE WHERE" Add English to the list of languages you don't speak...

This is shocking but I don't suspect for one minute that it is the exclusive preserve of Porsche (whether that be OPC or GB) to treat its customers this way. I firmly expect that there have been BMW's/Audi's/Merc's et al sold through official outlets that have been involved in serious accidents but not seriously enough to have rendered the car as a total loss. The interesting, perhaps sad irony, is that this car was re-shelled outside of the official network but then re-sold by the network as an approved used car. It beggars the question as to what questions were put to the repairer of the vehicle by PCL prior to them buying title to the vehicle, and how they can sell the car on with an approved used car warranty whether that be the new or the old style policy? FWIW, my 996 GT3 is looked after outside of the OPC network now, because for a couple of reasons, I took the decision to run the car without a warranty and I just feel as though the car is mine and I can change it as I see fit and that I wouldn't have to worry about breaking warranty terms and conditions by fitting non-OEM parts to it. I still use OPC Bolton to service my cars within warranty and have no reservations in sending the cars to them and I have what I would consider a good relationship with some of the guys there. It's a real shame that some have had such deeply unpleasant experiences, surely ones they would not wish to repeat and I personally do sympathise with them/you wholeheartedly. Sadly P. cars to some are almost a necessary evil...

2skiddy said: I think this car, EA07 VMC, is now at Gmund cars with POA. I wonder what the asking price is??????? In case anyone is interested - now there is the other thread running about a different crashed orange RS aswell, this car is now listed as being sold: http://www.gmundcars.com/cars/723/997gt3rs.html

I went in to Mercedes Glasgow (used to be Vardy, which isn't a good start) to buy two innocuous little trickle chargers for a friend who doesn't use his Mercs much (I wouldn't own or admit to owning a Merc because they are all just variations on the theme of Egyptian taxi.) Firstly it took a while for them to understand what they were (I suppose that it's easier to charge customers £250 to haul their cars back into the garage) Explained that I wanted the little numbers you plug into into the cigarette lighter, like you do on a Porsche. Best speak to the service department. Do these work for these models/years? Answer yes. Next they didn't have them in stock, fair enough, got them in two days. Went in to get them, had a look. First noticed that they had German type plugs, so I have to buy an adaptor. Then asked, just to be sure, these are the type that plug into the cigarette lighter. Oh,yes! Later I thought it would be a good idea to read the instructions thoroughly before using, when I see the printed warning 'not to be plugged into the cigarette lighter under any circumstances.' Trivial, I know, but just how ignorant of their product can UK dealerships be? And don't tell me Mercedes are 'thorough' when they can't even supply chargers in the UK with the correct plug. Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 11th August 09:55

Well ...... I am a little late to this thread (!) but I came across it by accident and as an ardent Porsche fan and recent customer, I have to say I was shocked by this story. The disgraceful way the OPC and PCGB has behaved will certainly make me think again about any purchase I make in future so I wish to thank the original poster for that and say how admirably he has dealt with the whole situation. Fortunately for me, my own experiences with Porsche have been very positive but this has been a very informative read. Long live PHs!

Anyone got any updates on where this car is now? Just reading this, wow.

GT3RS only 31km from new - still got packaging protection on it. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207047...

That’s rather nice. But I would prefer one that has done 10.000 km and had all the services along the way. I have a very similar 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and the service schedule is quite elaborate, so I wouldn’t go for a low (no) mileage as you cannot be sure that all the maintenance has been carried out. Calculate at least 20k to “recommission” it as it needs new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters etc etc.

hornbaek said: That’s rather nice. But I would prefer one that has done 10.000 km and had all the services along the way. I have a very similar 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and the service schedule is quite elaborate, so I wouldn’t go for a low (no) mileage as you cannot be sure that all the maintenance has been carried out. Calculate at least 20k to “recommission” it as it needs new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters etc etc. It’s unusable now. It will be punted to speculator after speculator and never turn a wheel again

hornbaek said: That’s rather nice. But I would prefer one that has done 10.000 km and had all the services along the way. I have a very similar 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and the service schedule is quite elaborate, so I wouldn’t go for a low (no) mileage as you cannot be sure that all the maintenance has been carried out. Calculate at least 20k to “recommission” it as it needs new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters etc etc. but 320k to recommission it with new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters? £20K?! no way... more like £3K at tops.

julian987R said: but 320k to recommission it with new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters? £20K?! no way... more like £3K at tops. 4 Cup 2 tyres, filters, fluids, plugs, belts etc will add up to more than 3k. You won’t get much change from 1700 just for the tyres.

Royal Jelly said: julian987R said: but 320k to recommission it with new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters? £20K?! no way... more like £3K at tops. 4 Cup 2 tyres, filters, fluids, plugs, belts etc will add up to more than 3k. You won’t get much change from 1700 just for the tyres. £1700 for tyres £1300 for the other stuff. £20K is way over-egged.

julian987R said: £1700 for tyres £1300 for the other stuff. £20K is way over-egged. It won’t be 20k, but it certainly won’t be 3 either. That’s before a multitude of unlubricated gaskets & seals need replacing, too.

julian987R said: hornbaek said: That’s rather nice. But I would prefer one that has done 10.000 km and had all the services along the way. I have a very similar 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and the service schedule is quite elaborate, so I wouldn’t go for a low (no) mileage as you cannot be sure that all the maintenance has been carried out. Calculate at least 20k to “recommission” it as it needs new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters etc etc. but 320k to recommission it with new speak plugs, tyres, fluids, various filters? £20K?! no way... more like £3K at tops. Have you seen the price of speak plugs? The talking variety are way more expensive than regular spark plugs.

thegreenhell said: Have you seen the price of speak plugs? The talking variety are way more expensive than regular spark plugs. ok £5K then....but t-w-e-n-t-y-t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d?

The recommission cost is a moot point. It's value is intrinsically linked to the mileage. Why would you spend 5 grand in order to lose tens of thousands when you peel off the plastic and start using it? It's just an asset now. If you wanted to use it, you would buy a 'used' one.

Part of me sees this as a massive waste, but there is a side which thinks how nice it is such a time warp car exists out there. One of this era will never be built again after all.

Royal Jelly said: julian987R said: £1700 for tyres £1300 for the other stuff. £20K is way over-egged. It won’t be 20k, but it certainly won’t be 3 either. That’s before a multitude of unlubricated gaskets & seals need replacing, too. How do you lubricate gaskets, precisely? If stored well, i.e. indoors, as is obvious, possibly not even the tyres would need replacing, despite their age, unless one intends to track the car. The rest, just drive it. Nothing will need doing. No parts are made of cheese.

996TT02 said: Royal Jelly said: julian987R said: £1700 for tyres £1300 for the other stuff. £20K is way over-egged. It won’t be 20k, but it certainly won’t be 3 either. That’s before a multitude of unlubricated gaskets & seals need replacing, too. How do you lubricate gaskets, precisely? If stored well, i.e. indoors, as is obvious, possibly not even the tyres would need replacing, despite their age, unless one intends to track the car. The rest, just drive it. Nothing will need doing. No parts are made of cheese. Well quite. Just turn the key and off you go - its brand new after all.

996TT02 said: How do you lubricate gaskets, precisely? If stored well, i.e. indoors, as is obvious, possibly not even the tyres would need replacing, despite their age, unless one intends to track the car. The rest, just drive it. Nothing will need doing. No parts are made of cheese. Sorry, I forgot that pedantry matters. Unlubricated seals & degraded gaskets. Is that better? As for suggesting driving an RS4.0 on decade old rubber.. tells my all I need to know. At least our resident font of knowledge agrees with you.