Brake problems on my 1st track day...

Last week I took my '00 996 C2, with 20K miles, to the track for the first time. The track was Thunderhill, here in Nor Cal. The car worked great, and I had no problem blowing the doors off all of the other cars in the beginner group. As the day wore on, and I got a little more aggresive, I was using the brakes pretty hard. On the last lap of two of my 30 minute sessions, the brakes faded real bad, like they had air in the lines. Somebody said that I must have boiled the brake fluid. I've read on this board that this problem can be solved by replacing the brake fluid, and/or putting on track pads. What kind of brake fluid is stock? Thanks

It' probably brake fluid that came out of one of the brake calipers... possibly caused by a loose bleeding nipple. Just flush the fluid and you'll be fine. On the wheel, it's a different story. Brake fluid is one of the most corrosive fluids to deal with so it probably ate through your clear coat. You can probably get the delalership to take care of it. I suggest that you cool down on the "blow the doors off the other cars" as if you don't, you'll soon total the car. This is something that you should take as friendly advice

Don't be afraid to let your dealer know you went to DE. DE events are not competition events, and therefore does not violate your warranty. Read the manual; it specifies "competition". Read the DE flyer and disclaimer, if you have one (most do); DE events are not a timed event, nor are they meant to be used for competing. FWIW, my dealer knows I do DE events, use R-compound tires, lowered it, and have Performance Friction pads on it. Furthermore, they replaced my rear main seal AND the gasket for the oil pan under warranty.

Thanks a lot for the responses. I just have one other (dumb) question. What does "DE" stand for? I'm guessing "driving experience", or maybe "driving education"...

DE = drivers education. You might go very slowly on Arthur's advice about "coming out" to your dealer that you do DEs in your car, especially if you use aftermarket "upgrades." Some dealers are not so supportive, and may not repair under warranty if the problem seems related to such usage. Technically, I think the dealer needs to be able to show evidence that the upgrade and usage likely contributed to the failure in order to refuse repair under warranty. However, this vagueness leaves plenty of room for a range of alternative interpretations. Authur has been luckier than some, so far.

Thanks Jim, I don't have to worry about any aftermarket parts, because my car is bone stock. I'd like to be able to take it to the dealer and have them look at whatever got on my wheel, and maybe replace it under warranty if its permanently scarred. Any thoughts?

After reading all about dealers here in this forum, I'd agree with Jim's advice. Most dealers are highly supportive of DE's and tracking of Porsches. However, some of them may not back it up with warrantee coverage. Best to not volunteer the fact that you track your car until you know for sure where your dealer/service manager stands. I obliquely questioned my salesman and service GM. For this particular dealership, they will cover warrantee work on a car that goes on the track, so long as scheduled maintenance is followed and all parts are OEM or Porsche approved. Even putting a roll cage in is fine, so long as it is the Porsche roll cage.

dp: I wouldn't be hesitant to take the car in to ask the dealer what that stuff on the wheel might be (brake fluid is the only thing that comes to mind), and if it's repair (the wheel can be refinished to look like new) or replacement might be covered under warranty. I'd be honest with them about using the brakes hard at DE. Although brake fade using OE brake stuff is expected, the brake fluid is at least supposed to stay within the lines. It sounds like the brake fluid might have boiled. If so, it may take some time for the brake pedal level to come back. You can expect similar brake fade at DEs from here on, unless you use fluid with higher dry and wet boiling points. ATE Blue (no longer being made, but still some out there) or ATE 200 (amber) is apparently sufficient for most. There are fluids with even higher boiling points, but they are quite a bit more expensive than ATE. Adding a brake cooling kit would also help cool the brakes and fluid. It's also possible that you were a little too hard on the brakes (only your instructor would know). Even with a complete racing brake setup, it's possible to over-use the brakes and have them go away before the end of a race.

[quote]Originally posted by Jean-Marc: <strong>It' probably brake fluid that came out of one of the brake calipers... possibly caused by a loose bleeding nipple. Just flush the fluid and you'll be fine. On the wheel, it's a different story. Brake fluid is one of the most corrosive fluids to deal with so it probably ate through your clear coat.</strong><hr></blockquote> Jean-Marc, Do you have first-hand experience with this? I previously had brake fluid leaking on my wheel rims and think that this is what caused some damage to the rims but my dealer doesn't think this is possible. S.

Once you boil the brake fluid and get air bubbles in the brake lines, the bubbles do not go away. To properly restore your brake pedal you would need to bleed the brakes. Also make sure your brake fluid is not to old as it does absorb water causing the boil point to lower (Porsche recomends every 2 years). I just attended my second DE in the 996 and I would have to say that my stock fluid (that was changed just over a year ago) is due for a change (ATE), and I may swap in some Pagid sport pads and SS brake lines. Fixedwing, the dealer is yanking your chain. Brake fluid will eat the finish off your wheels, calipers, et al.

[quote]Originally posted by FixedWing: <strong> Jean-Marc, Do you have first-hand experience with this? I previously had brake fluid leaking on my wheel rims and think that this is what caused some damage to the rims but my dealer doesn't think this is possible. S.</strong><hr></blockquote> Yes, I had it all the time on my cup car and I think that it actually happened once on my street car (not 100% sure though).

[quote]Originally posted by Arthur: <strong>Don't be afraid to let your dealer know you went to DE. DE events are not competition events, and therefore does not violate your warranty. Read the manual; it specifies "competition".</strong><hr></blockquote> I agree with Jim and others on this point, be careful about admitting track use to your dealer. PCNA just canceled the remainder of my drivetrain and emissions warranty becaused I have a UniChip installed and because I track the car. Whether its a competition event doesn't really matter. The warranty coverage specifically excludes any kind of racing, competition, OR track use. Believe me, I've read the language in the warranty book very carefully. My dealer was also supportive on engine related warranty repairs (rear main seal, coolant overflow tank) until recently. They were facing a $3000 repair that I contend was caused by a botched earlier repair they did on the oil separator and they simply said, no, it was the UniChip that caused the problem and therefore I had to pay. When I appealed it to the zone rep, he not only backed up the dealer but canceled the remainder of my warranty to boot. Moral of the story, be careful what you tell your dealer. But whatever you do, try to resolve any issues at the dealer level. If you try to resort to PCNA, you will get screwed for sure.

DP35- I recently changed to Super Blue ATE brake fluid plus Pagids. I've done most DE's with the stock fluid and pads but chose to go for the upgrade as my skill increases on the track. I've been to Thunderhill many times taking the HPDE they offer there and recently went to Greenflag one at Thunderhill. I'm going on Nov.24th(Sunday)offered by <a href="http://www.tracknutz.com" target="_blank">www.tracknutz.com</a> at Thunderhill. Hope to see you there. Regards. Mike

Thanks Mike, I've only been to one DE, it was the "unlimited laps" event at T-Hill. I was really happy with how they were organized. My question is, have you been to unlimited laps events, and if so, how do they compare to Green Flag, Tracknutz, and whoever else? Or, who has the best events in Nor Cal.? Also, I was going to go to the Unlimited laps event on Nov. 1st at Laguna, but didn't sign up in time, now its full, bummer. Do you know of anyone else that's having a DE at Laguna Seca? I've got a ton more questions for ya: What color Pagids are you using? Do they squeal? Did you also replace the anti-squeal thing behind the pads? Where's the best place to buy pads and fluid? Thanks again, dp

Karl, did you actually get a letter or somthing in writing from PCNA stating that they cancelled your warranty? They may not be able to do so that easily, particularly on the emissions part of it. There are also some particular federal laws on auto warranties and your rights. Obviously they will not warrant the ECU if it has been reprogrammed, but they cannot void the warranty on other parts without having to make a decent case of it. I'd consider consulting some legal counsel and sending off a nice letter to them if they truly are telling you off. I would also send a letter to PCA national about it as they have a good relationship with PCNA and would not want to see all of their members having their warranties canceled. Also look for dealers tht have a racing presence. Keep in mind in europe youc an order a car from the factory with a roll cage, etc. also remind the dealers that if you DE the car, they should get ALOT more maitainence dollars as your oil changes, tech inspecs and brakes, etc. will be 4-10x normal. My dealer makes out pretty well with me on that aspect.

Check out <a href="http://www.Greenflagdriving.com." target="_blank">www.Greenflagdriving.com.</a> I know they have a 2 day event going at Laguna Seca. Wish I could go but be on Vacation around that time plus don't know how the weather will be that time(I believe it's Dec 21/22). I ordered the Pagid S pads(black) but it's funny that outside coating is blue. I ordered from a recommendation from the board and price was fair($300 approx for both front/back but they gave me 2 cans of Super Blue ATE which clinched the deal-I'll let you know who the retailer is when I get back home). After 2 days of heavy tracking the pads do squeal now and then but not everytime-actaully sounds like when your stock pads need replacing(that kinda squeal). You have to get new vibration damperners from Porsche dealer which costs like 60 bucks for both front and back. If you plan to do this mite as well go for steel lines which I forgot to mention(got it from <a href="http://www.evoms.com-steel" target="_blank">www.evoms.com-steel</a> brake lines). Well tracknutz will be similar to greenflag- no chicanes with three levels(novice/intermediate/advanced) and it's $195(with instructor extra $20)- Greenflag used the bypass at Turn 5 but tracknutz will use the top cyclone at Turn 5. Other then that sounds fun. Regards. Mike

Mike, what advantages do you get with steel brake lines? Do the rubber ones burst? I've heard that the steel lines have to be replaced once a year or else they become more prone to breakage/rupture. True?

Palting- from what I sense with the steel lines on the track-it has better pedal feel -more definite. Long term who knows how long they last- I guess I'll let you know in a year. I chose to do it since I did the other upgrades. Regards. Mike

Thanks, Mike. SS lines getting added to my growing grocery list.