GT4 vs Mustang vs Base - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Just a bit of fun, but that is some serious performance from the base. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqOaqHbf9Q

It's the out braking a GT4 that got me. Yes I know some track bunny with 9 GT4's will comment "well try doing it twenty times in a row on track and then come back to me" but back in the real world, seeing a bog-standard Cayman offer that level of performance is great for us mere mortals not on the list for the more exotic metal! I know it's a four pot, I know it sounds like a black cab at idle, but it's a yellow porsche with a great chassis that will handle like a dream and yours for under 50k - hell, yours for under 40k second hand. Why would you buy another sports car? TTS? A45 AMG? Mustang? Supra?

I don’t think Matt is pushing the brake pedal hard enough. I’ve owned both cars. But yes the base Cayman is a bargain for what you get, holds value pretty well too and the running costs are fairly reasonable.

Does that mean a 718S PDK would beat the GT4? I think so...

DJMC said: Does that mean a 718S PDK would beat the GT4? I think so... But not a PDK GT4

DM101 said: But not a PDK GT4 You sure? N/A vs. Turbo... you never know...

Just look at the Porsche performance figures. It's PDK vs Manual. Mat Watson hasn't put PDK vs PDK as it would be a boring result.

Strong performance from the base. May explain why they have held their value so well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QDFPew_Xms

Can't believe how well the 718 base held on even when the GT4 was roaring through 2nd and 3rd. Thought the 718 would win up to 30-40mph, and then the GT4 would just sail past it. It took the Mustang until 120mph to get past the 718 too. In one of the many 2.5S vs GTS 4.0 threads, a number of owners commented on how the 2.5S would be quicker in almost every real-world scenario... I can believe it tbh. Edited by david-j8694 on Thursday 20th January 15:28

DJMC said: DM101 said: But not a PDK GT4 You sure? N/A vs. Turbo... you never know... Would presume they have included the PDK times as they have included in gear acceleration in 7th: GT4: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/pmlonea8gcsv GTS 4.0: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/nnizzrc2lm02 Edited by Lexington59 on Thursday 20th January 15:39

Simply due to the longer gearing in the manual GT4.

Superlightdaa said: Simply due to the longer gearing in the manual GT4. Yup, even with over 400hp the gearing still hobbles these cars. The brake test was a surprise mind.

Superlightdaa said: Simply due to the longer gearing in the manual GT4. The PDK gear ratios are hardly any different. It is more just PDK being much easier to launch and being in the wrong gear for the second rolling race. GT4 needs to be in 2nd gear at 50 mph not 3rd regardless of the gearbox. It would have walked away easily then.

Oh the sound of that 5.0 NA V8, just how a sports car should sound. You would buy it just for that and sod the 2 Dysons regardless of how fast they maybe

At the risk of potentially stating the obvious - I think for most people there's a difference between what you want from a car if you borrow it for a couple of days, compared to what you want from a car as a long term ownership proposition. I completely agree that a base 718 Cayman is properly fast and a lot of fun in the real world. But I'm pretty sure that after a while, the driver would find it a bit one-dimensional. Where the flat six models score is that they are interesting all the way through the rev range and the driver can find pleasure at low speeds and higher speeds. I had a 718 Cayman T for a couple of days when my flat 6 Cayman was in for a major service and while I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with its performance, it didn't reward on the sensory level in the same way. The base Cayman and the Cayman T are definitely a lot of car for the money, but while Porsche still offers a naturally aspirated flat six in a Cayman, that's the one I will buy and own. I currently have a 718 GTS 4.0 and I absolutely love it as an overall package.

130R said: Superlightdaa said: Simply due to the longer gearing in the manual GT4. The PDK gear ratios are hardly any different. It is more just PDK being much easier to launch and being in the wrong gear for the second rolling race. GT4 needs to be in 2nd gear at 50 mph not 3rd regardless of the gearbox. It would have walked away easily then. thou doth protest too much. Lets face facts, the 4c base is a far superior car to the GT4.

julian987R said: thou doth protest too much. Lets face facts, the 4c base is a far superior car to the GT4. Comedy genius

Lexington59 said: DJMC said: DM101 said: But not a PDK GT4 You sure? N/A vs. Turbo... you never know... Would presume they have included the PDK times as they have included in gear acceleration in 7th: GT4: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/pmlonea8gcsv GTS 4.0: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/nnizzrc2lm02 Edited by Lexington59 on Thursday 20th January 15:39 They are manual times as there are comments at the bottom which are two years old. The gt4 pdk wasn’t even manufactured two years ago for them to be able to test it!

anonymous said: [redacted] Most certainly speed wise

The Mustang has stupidly high gear ratios.

GT4RS said: Lexington59 said: DJMC said: DM101 said: But not a PDK GT4 You sure? N/A vs. Turbo... you never know... Would presume they have included the PDK times as they have included in gear acceleration in 7th: GT4: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/pmlonea8gcsv GTS 4.0: https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/nnizzrc2lm02 Edited by Lexington59 on Thursday 20th January 15:39 They are manual times as there are comments at the bottom which are two years old. The gt4 pdk wasn’t even manufactured two years ago for them to be able to test it! If you click into the particular times you can see when they were submitted, many were tested in 2021 and appear to relate to the pdk. Agree the comments appear out of date (from 2019.) Would be interested how they measured performance in 7th gear in the manual otherwise..

Lexington59 said: Just a bit of fun, but that is some serious performance from the base. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqOaqHbf9Q Interesting but really just an automated clutch 'auto'/turbo story. In the real world without standing starts people still just buy what works for them but the base Cayman is impressive however you look at it. Before I ordered my base 992 I test drove a manual Boxster 4.0 GTS. The engine note was nice but nothing that great but then I am coming from a 4.7 V8 Maserati with valved back boxes (all OEM) and no GPF!

Stunters said: At the risk of potentially stating the obvious - I think for most people there's a difference between what you want from a car if you borrow it for a couple of days, compared to what you want from a car as a long term ownership proposition. I completely agree that a base 718 Cayman is properly fast and a lot of fun in the real world. But I'm pretty sure that after a while, the driver would find it a bit one-dimensional. Where the flat six models score is that they are interesting all the way through the rev range and the driver can find pleasure at low speeds and higher speeds. <snip> I replaced my manual base model 718 Cayman with a 981 GT4 a few years ago. It was partly because I'd lusted after the GT4 since launch, and partly because I wanted to do the grand experiment of seeing if a GT Porsche (with bucket seats and rear cage) could be a daily drive as well as a weekend / track day car. Turns out it can, fabulous drive around town, totally well behaved, cage rattles a bit when stone hit the suspension, and tramlines on some uneven roads, but a hoot and I love it. However I hated the idea of using it on salty roads, as I plan on keeping it for another 15 years or more. After a couple of instances of totally unintentional opposite lock when the roads started getting cold and slippery, I ended up buying a Toyota GT86 (that I'd had from new) back from the mate I had sold it to, to use as a winter hack. When the Toyota suffered some age related problems about 15 months back I realised I needed something that was a more reliable winter hack, because I have no intention of getting rid of the GT4. So I thought back over the best cars I have ever owned, with good availability of winter wheels/tyres, comfortable for a long motorway drive, well behaved in traffic, but with sublime handling on country roads and fast A-roads (and OK, playing the hooligan slightly on roundabouts where it's safe to do so). As an all round road car, the winner in my motoring life is the base model 718 Cayman. So I ordered another one in absolutely identical spec. to the one I used for 17,000 miles in 2017-18 in February last year. Collected it about 700 miles ago with winter wheels and tyres already fitted. There's nothing one dimensional about the base Cayman. The gearing is much too tall around town (2.0L without boost on the same ratios as 3.8L GT4 only just works); brakes are a little "over-assisted" compared to the GT4, but one could equally argue that the GT4 has such a heavy pedal feel that one loses sensitivity; there's a little turbo lag, but it's predictable, and the pop-off valve makes a satisfying turbo "boof" noise on low speed gear changes; as road car, steers better, has better motorway speed acceleration, lower cabin noise, and generally rather similar performance to the GT4. It is a car that is absolutely full of character, and running a second one in from new feels like the absolute privilege that it is. (Keeping below 5k rpm for a few more days, can't wait for 5.5k, when water/oil temperatures are all up to reasonable). But in short, I love it, and have slipped back into a comfortable pair of shoes until the weather gets better. I know I'm in an incredibly fortunate position to own both. My wife found the "Would you divorce me if I spent £85k on a car" conversation very uncomfortable when I bought the GT4, especially because I only waited as long as "No, but..." before hanging up on her to place a deposit. The current 718 suffered from a long delay between "Do what you want, it's your money!" in February, and getting to the realisation that I had actually done so when I needed lift back from dropping the Toyota off for PX in November. It probably doesn't help that in my mind they are totally different cars from one another, but in her's they are both metallic white Porsche Caymans with black and carbon interiors. How could anyone need two of them? So going back to the OP. Yes, the base 718 Cayman is more than impressive, it's a genuinely lovable car that I have gone back to. If I could own only one of the two it would be an extremely tough choice. I feel extremely blessed not to have the need to make that choice. Honestly, the base Cayman is genuinely that good. That it can loosely keep up with and out-brake a GT4 in a straight line does not surprise me in the least. With equal gearboxes the GT4 really ought to win in a drag race. But having used my GT4 for track days, the base 718 would need to stay at home. The 718 is an amazing road car, but the GT4 is pretty much built for that environment. Brakes, coolers, most of all aero, everything about it has filled me with confidence that has never been undermined. All of those are built for a more serious purpose. Sorry, long post, but don't underestimate the base 718. They are an absolutely brilliant car. I could extol the virtues of the 981 GT4, but it has all been said before. Possibly more brilliant, but in different ways, and by less of an extent than most would imagine. Liam

Stunters said: I completely agree that a base 718 Cayman is properly fast and a lot of fun in the real world. But I'm pretty sure that after a while, the driver would find it a bit one-dimensional. Where the flat six models score is that they are interesting all the way through the rev range and the driver can find pleasure at low speeds and higher speeds. I had a 718 Cayman T for a couple of days when my flat 6 Cayman was in for a major service and while I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with its performance, it didn't reward on the sensory level in the same way. Yeah, I felt the same. I bought myself the Cayman PEC day with a view to buying one imminently afterwards, and I just left feeling a bit deflated. Car looked sensational (in the identical spec I'd picked on the configurator) and felt superb to drive... But I left not sure I wanted one anymore. It just didn't stir me. It was an odd feeling after having considered one for a while. And, it's not like I'm some of the God level Porsche afficionados on here who have exceptionally anal ideas about "the spirit" of certain models and what engines/options they should have. I bought a 981 GTS a few days later and adore it. And most of that is just down to the howling engine though

No knocking the base Cayman, it's a lovely car, but I don't think Mat did the greatest job getting the GT4 off the line, not a problem in the PDK car. The other massive factor is tyres. The GT4 was presumably on the OEM Pilot Sport Cup 2's which are known to be horrid in the cold/wet. Not the first choice of tyre for launching on a cold January day. I bet a set of Pilot Sport 4's on the car would have made a difference to the launch and to the stopping distances.

Interesting result but with manual cars the drivers are always going to be the biggest variable and three different drivers could have ended up with slightly different results with exactly the same cars. It never ceases to amaze me how many people buy a car because it can go around the Nurburgring in 7:12.8864134684 and then you get in the car with them and it turns out they are just average drivers at best who are able to afford to buy nice cars. Apart from on PH where every driver is a driving God, obviously

LiamH66 said: (Lots of interesting, well-reasoned stuff about 718 Cayman 2.0 and 981 GT4) I had a 987.1 Cayman S and 981 GT4 at the same time, for about 2 and a half years. I had the Cayman T for a couple of days when I still had the GT4 and about a year before selling it back to my OPC and ordering the GTS 4.0. I totally agree with you about the capability of the 718 base Caymans, and how they are in many ways a better road car than the GT4. But for me, the range of noises that a car of this type is capable of making as you go up and down the rev range was always going to be an important factor when it comes to choosing what to own. I suppose this is perhaps because I see the Cayman as being more of a 'luxury' sports car (rather than something like an Elise, Alpine or Alfa 4C) and therefore it should have a relatively exotic engine. I felt that the 718 base Cayman was fast enough in the real world, but it didn't make me smile in the way the other Caymans did. Once the GTS 4.0 got announced, I knew it was likely to be my sweet spot. Otherwise, it would have been a tough decision between a turbo flat 4 718 and an Exige V6 of some description. We're all still lucky that Porsche offers us these choices at a relatively affordable price point, given the quality of the chassis, primary controls, ergonomics etc.

TBH GPFs are killing tge sound of all cars these days. I was most disappointed with my drive in a 70 plate 4.0 GTS recently so much so I didnt think it was much better than a 18 plate 2.5 T GTS. Don't think I will be buying any car with a GPF now as sound is a huge part of the sports car experience for me

Hardly surprising results by such a limited straight line test in sub 7 degrees temps limiting traction by the GT4 Cup tyres but the GT4 powering ahead on the rolling start tells you all you need to know. Real world driving on a typical winding UK B road during warmer dry conditions would see the GT4 way ahead of the other two which is hardly surprising given its far more focused dynamics superior GT3 chassis and brakes. But the biggest plus of course is the GT4 driver being rewarded by one of the best manual gearboxes available mated to a bespoke Porsche GT engine with perfectly linear power delivery and an 8k rev limit which 4 cylinder turbo engine fans can really only dream of. Edited by av185 on Friday 21st January 21:28

I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear

Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving.

av185 said: Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving. Nope. Internet myth created to dispel the Internet myth. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period.

julian987R said: av185 said: Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving. Nope. Internet myth created to dispel the Internet myth. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period. Nope. Why are you making stuff up yet again. How odd then that my 718 GT4 does 83mph in second. As does every other manual 718 GT4 in the world. Confirmed by Porsche. And here's more proof.

av185 said: julian987R said: av185 said: Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving. Nope. Internet myth created to dispel the Internet myth. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period. Nope. Why are you making stuff up yet again. How odd then that my 718 GT4 does 83mph in second. As does every other manual 718 GT4 in the world. Confirmed by Porsche. And here's more proof. as i say, one is 'almost' doing 90. 83 is 'almost 90. Unsure what the issue is to be honest. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period. Thats it.

Top comedy.

Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Before I test drove my GT4, my biggest worry, after soaking up every youtube review I could find, was about the gearing. Once you drive the car you realise it's all b ks. Yes, it does 80-odd in 2nd, but it really does not feel over-geared in 2nd or 3rd, either around town or out on my local Welsh B roads. On my local twisties I'm usually in 3rd occasionally dropping down to 2nd. On the A roads it's mainly 4th and 3rd.

julian987R said: as i say, one is 'almost' doing 90. 83 is 'almost 90. Unsure what the issue is to be honest. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period. Thats it. Yep and in sixth the car tops out at nearly 400mph

Sound is so important. I couldn't care less if the 4cyl is faster, probably uses less fuel doing it too. None of those 3 are anywhere near a 10 year old Model S for straight line speed anyway.

Twinfan said: julian987R said: as i say, one is 'almost' doing 90. 83 is 'almost 90. Unsure what the issue is to be honest. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear, period. Thats it. Yep and in sixth the car tops out at nearly 400mph But according to a bloke who was in the pub last night it tops out at 393mph

av185 said: Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving. Internet myth or not where in real world driving do you get to rev out one of these engines out then, to fully enjoy them? Surely you don't rev the car out in first...........I've never done that in any car. I'm a big fan of NA engines, but the mid range punch from a turbo engine (and by and large the lack of top end grunt) means that you can enjoy the engine in real world driving on the road.

Horses for courses. Different sorts of enjoyment appeal to different people. I like both sorts of engines (I have a GR Yaris for torquey turbo thrills) but a high-revving, good-sounding normally aspirated engine is what I want in a luxury sports car. You certainly can enjoy it on the road even with about 400 horsepower and with gearing that will do 'almost 90' in second. Just choose your roads with care, and choose you time of day with care. The weird thing is that given we are probably all driving enthusiasts, we generally have more in common with each other than with the average driver on today's roads and yet we bicker about these sorts of differences. Perhaps its a bit like saying what's your favourite type of curry, or crisp flavour if you're really into curry or crisps. Anyway I'm just off out to enjoy the Yaris. The Cayman can wait until tomorrow

Holgate86 said: av185 said: Curledge said: I must admit I like a good manual in a hot hatch but I'm not so sure in a sports car with 400 bhp especially when the ratios are too long. You are almost doing 90 mph in 2nd gear Nope. Internet myth. 83mph in 2nd and only a few mph more than a GT3 manual which is perfectly geared. So hardly a problem in real world driving. Internet myth or not where in real world driving do you get to rev out one of these engines out then, to fully enjoy them? Surely you don't rev the car out in first...........I've never done that in any car. I'm a big fan of NA engines, but the mid range punch from a turbo engine (and by and large the lack of top end grunt) means that you can enjoy the engine in real world driving on the road. Good point and every car has its place including turbos of course but there really is no substitute for the perfect linear power delivery and instant throttle response of a sophisticated na engine such as that in the GT4 which has no lag whatsoever unlike the vast majority of turbo engines including Porsche btw no matter how good and therein lies the pleasure of using the revs in a car like the GT4. The other aspect is that only a limited number of cars are interactive even at low speeds and the GT4 is one of these rare cars hence you really don't have to be 'on it' or driving at warp speeds to reap the benefits and challenges of the car as a package and therein lies the overall enjoyment.

Stunters said: I had a 987.1 Cayman S and 981 GT4 at the same time, for about 2 and a half years. I had the Cayman T for a couple of days when I still had the GT4 and about a year before selling it back to my OPC and ordering the GTS 4.0. <Lots of interesting stuff about about 718 vs. 981 in various trims, + general Porsche Cayman enjoyability> I get entirely where you are coming from. Your post got me thinking that the question maybe shouldn't be, "If I could only keep one of them?" but, "Could anything else be the best of both worlds?" In another life, yep, I could live with a GTS 4.0 pretty happily. So when I think of my own amazing good fortune, I'll think of yours as at least equal. The 2.0 T4 still sticks a ridiculous grin on my face at least daily, but I cannot wait for GT4 weather to reappear. Liam

Same here, Liam...