Keep seeing 997s slithering up my snowy road.... - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

....here in London (first snow this year) at walking pace spinning up one wheel then the other. Should've ticked the PTV/LSD box I imagine I'll be less amused later when I have to move my GT3, LSD or not!!

Two words, winter tyres...

I have to say I don't get this winter tyres business at all. I'm not doubting they work but only for a very short period of time as our temps are not generally low enough. I was first out of our village today, no gritters and snow covered roads and my half worn 305's worked perfectly:-) Fred

jackliebling said: Two words, winter tyres... Ironic given that my 993 was also stranded and I have a set of winters on rims for it in storage on my terrace

FredBasset said: I have to say I don't get this winter tyres business at all. I'm not doubting they work but only for a very short period of time as our temps are not generally low enough. I was first out of our village today, no gritters and snow covered roads and my half worn 305's worked perfectly:-) Fred Last winter, which was a lot colder in London area than this one, saw me stick the winters on the 993 in Oct thru to March if I recall. You lose some outright grip and feel when the temps are above 7 deg and daytime temps can obviously get a lot higher, but given that most people use their car early morning or in the evening when it's cold, the benefit is still there with the softer rubber. Even if it's just cold and wet (no snow), my 993 feels a lot better on winters than summers - I just never got around to putting them on this year as it never really got proper cold until a couple of weeks ago here, plus I had a track day on Sunday. GT3 was hilarious when I finally moved it today - even after the snow had melted it was mini drift at 10mph if you wanted out of every junction

FredBasset said: I have to say I don't get this winter tyres business at all. I'm not doubting they work but only for a very short period of time as our temps are not generally low enough. I was first out of our village today, no gritters and snow covered roads and my half worn 305's worked perfectly:-) Fred They make a massive difference in cold, low grip conditions. And in snow, it's the difference between getting home and being stuck going up a hill.

I've not tried them on a 911, I have tried them on other cars. My point is really that you are running on a tyre that is working outside its optimal range for a good portion of time too. However JP probably has hit the nail on the head as to why I'm not too fussed by them. I live in the fens, what are these hills of which you speak. Regards Fred

FredBasset said: I've not tried them on a 911, I have tried them on other cars. My point is really that you are running on a tyre that is working outside its optimal range for a good portion of time too. However JP probably has hit the nail on the head as to why I'm not too fussed by them. I live in the fens, what are these hills of which you speak. Regards Fred Ah...fair enough. We live in a valley, so when it snows, we're screwed without winter tyres!

So all those times during November to March when its higher than 7 degrees and you're on a compromised solution isn't worth consideration. Depending on where you live in the country its a much shorter time period when they are worthwhile. I'm not saying you're wrong but I've owned a number of high performance cars over the last twenty five years, used as daily drivers and I've never seen the justification. Like I said in my previous post maybe its where I live! Fred

Did 45mph in the snow lane the other day on my way to work, overtaking traffic in lanes 1 and 2 which were driving on tarmac. Quite hilarious really.

Settle down fella, I'm not looking for an argument, FYI. I personally don't get it, if you do thats great and I'm pleased for you. If you look back to our last three winters, certainly where I live its been unseasonably warm and the need for winter tyres is very limited. I agree with anything that makes driving safer but when you see journalists arguing that they should be made compulsory between November and March in the UK its complete rubbish. Yes lets make the road safer by insisting everyone in the country fits tyres between these months regardless of the actual weather conditions, in Scotland and Wales fair enough perhaps. In the fens, absolutely not as there are times, considerably more than a handful of days when running winter tyres is not as safe as summers. If we are going to that level then all cars sold should be 4wd. Its obviously good for the tyre makers and the manufacturers selling wheels though! Fred

anonymous said: [redacted] Quite agree - I live in mid wales, and run winter tyres on all cars between November and around March. Have lost interest in trying to convince others of the benefits...!

anonymous said: [redacted] I don't disagree that they are better in the right conditions and I think in parts of the country they work for a longer period, however I don't think that is a default and it depends where you live. I see a continuing trend where people are pushing winter tyres and attempts to make it compulsory which will grow over time and thats where I disagree, it will be a blanket approach for the country as a whole. Obviously it creates revenue for the country, extra tyres, wheels, storage, VAT on it etc so I think we are creeping towards that and thats why I don't get it. Its an opinion, I'm not saying its right or wrong but personally I don't get it. I could easily do it as I have plenty of storage and a nice old barn to work on the cars in, just never seen the benefits outweighing the drawbacks. We do get an abnormally low amount of snow where I live though and its flat, as I say if you have to contend with hills it is a different matter. Anyway, peace and happy driving :-) Regards Fred

Dont waste your breathe cmoose.

Pete, I'm make sure I check with you first about any aspect of my life. Its an opinion, all I said at the beginning was I don't get it. Fred

FredBasset said: I have to say I don't get this winter tyres business at all. I'm not doubting they work but only for a very short period of time as our temps are not generally low enough. I was first out of our village today, no gritters and snow covered roads and my half worn 305's worked perfectly:-) Fred I drove a FWD Volvo from Geneva to Morzine on 28th December. All the hire cars have Winter Tyres and the grip they give you is eye opening. In the UK I guess it depends when you're using the car. The clue is in 'winter tyres' not 'snow tyres'. If you're driving to work in the winter months it's often close to or freezing in both the morning and evening so there's an obvious benefit. Yes you can make do 99% of the time on summer tyres, but there is a benefit in using winter tyres at the right time of the year.

I wish that I could express a moderate view and, as is often the case, agree with Cmoose. But I just cant. Winter tyres are an absurd and unjustifiable expense for most drivers in England, and especially the South. The cost of buying winter wheels and tyres and having them fitted is beyond ridiculous in circumstances where I have literally never been snowed in. Ever. In my driving life. As for winter tyres being more fun in the wet, my car has more than enough grip in the dry or the wet at anything like safe road speeds. Wide open throttle at 45 in second gear in standing water is just about all that ever makes me squit myself. Grip in corners is never remotely an issue (unless you are trying to make it an issue by applying throttle a bit early). We all like to spend more money on our cars, but £2k to have a bit more grip in the winter and to be able to drive in 2 days of snow really is taking the piss.

ORD said: I wish that I could express a moderate view and, as is often the case, agree with Cmoose. But I just cant. Winter tyres are an absurd and unjustifiable expense for most drivers in England, and especially the South. The cost of buying winter wheels and tyres and having them fitted is beyond ridiculous in circumstances where I have literally never been snowed in. Ever. In my driving life. As for winter tyres being more fun in the wet, my car has more than enough grip in the dry or the wet at anything like safe road speeds. Wide open throttle at 45 in second gear in standing water is just about all that ever makes me squit myself. Grip in corners is never remotely an issue (unless you are trying to make it an issue by applying throttle a bit early). We all like to spend more money on our cars, but £2k to have a bit more grip in the winter and to be able to drive in 2 days of snow really is taking the piss. Normally my default position would be to disagree with cmoose as a matter of principle but in this case he is entirely correct. As he has explained, winter tyres are for temperatures below 7 degrees, not for 'snow' so have significant advantages for many people particularly in the early morning / late evenings between October and February (5 months of the year). The cost, even for my 997 C4S was not much more than £1,000 (no need for separate rims) and for more mainstream cars will be considerably lower. Further, when you are driving on the winter tyres you are not wearing out the summer tyres, so there is some offset there. The only additional cost is getting the tyres swapped on and off the vehicle - typically £10 per wheel. Edited by sidicks on Thursday 5th February 09:52

anonymous said: [redacted] £400 is a different ball game, I agree. But most Porsche drivers (a) have warranty fears about doing anything other than what they are told by the OPC (rightly or wrongly) and (b) have whopping great tyres! For what it's worth, I have heard recently of 2 garages telling punters that winter tyres make no difference on RWD cars! Utter and absolute nonsense. Note, however, that in each case the punter was asking whether she needed to buy a runaround for the winter. Incredibly dishonest behaviour!

anonymous said: [redacted] Don't be mean I could point out that you have rather changed your tune on winter tyres somewhat since my thread back in Sept

anonymous said: [redacted] We will see! If a manual GT3 RS without RWS is slower and more compromised than the base GT3 then I suspect that many drivers like myself, who wanted a more road-oriented car, will be quite happy with that outcome!

This isn't about whether Cmoose is correct or whether I am. Its down to opinion, I merely expressed an opinion that I didn't get it. I said I don't get the use of them and still don't get it, I've outlined my opinions about winter tyres for my use and I'm not trying to convert anyone. I agree with ORD, use sensible speed for the conditions and normal tyres are perfectly fine where I live. But if people want to use them they can, just don't think everyone must agree with you, like I said its not about who is correct because we're not entitled to tell each other what to think. Regards Fred

I think we need fewer 'warm' days for me to use winter tyres again. I found them better in low temps and on cold wet days. They were good at keeping tailgaters away too. I don't enjoy the feel of them once the temperature hits the teens and we have too many of those days lately.

ORD said: The cost of buying winter wheels and tyres and having them fitted is beyond ridiculous Rubbish. You can only wear out one set of tyres at once Winters wear more slowly than summers in cold weather (and vice versa) £100 to have mine swapped over twice a year (including balancing) Anyone who's tried them knows that they are a no brainer. (And I live in the South).

Anyone who has had an accident on black ice using the totally unsuitable low profile summer tyres that Porsches come with (as I have) will swear by winter tyres. The last 4-5 winters have been seriously cold with extended periods of snow. If your work relies on you turning up whatever the weather then they are essential. The temperature in London has scarcely gone above 7 degrees for the last 3 months. My car (now a BMW m135i) was incredible driving in snowy scotland in December. It felt so safe, I will never drive another rearwheel drive car without winters.

newboy997 said: ORD said: The cost of buying winter wheels and tyres and having them fitted is beyond ridiculous Rubbish. You can only wear out one set of tyres at once Winters wear more slowly than summers in cold weather (and vice versa) £100 to have mine swapped over twice a year (including balancing) Anyone who's tried them knows that they are a no brainer. (And I live in the South). Are you ignoring the purchase cost of the winter wheels? Smear that over the time of owning the car and it's still quite a lot of pounds.

That is one of the problem with now very common PDK box. You cannot be gentle when setting off or during gear change. In my 996T, I use anti-stall and clutch only to get the car off the line, with no throttle even on a slope. On subsequent down change or up change, I'm very, very slow and gentle with the clutch uptake so you don't get the sudden torque jerk or reversal which will cause you to slither about. With these new double clutch gearboxes which you have no control on the clutch action,I doubt you can get the car out or back home if you live in the country side and the last 200 yards is on a slope and unpaved. I think my next car will have to be a 991 Carrera 4 GTS manual if I ever retire my 996T winter daily heck, since you cannot get a manual Turbo anymore

Paddy_N_Murphy said: As other sensibles around I bought a set of wheels, and some Nokians (with minimal wear) and had them all sorted for less than £800 out of season. It takes me an hour on the drive way to swap my wheels. I take rural roads daily, and in the last month encountered many a morning of slush or an inch of snow. Zero dramas. I also believe that in the type of standing water seen in out winter months they are better too. When a bloody service or such tends to cost circa 1000 a year, I see my set of winters- which should last me 4 or 5 years of winter use, as being sweet f a in real costs. I 'know' they are a far better solution for winter driving. End of. What he said I run a 958 Cayenne and that came with Pirelli PZero 295/35/21's. Poor when slightly icy and pretty much useless in the snow. Swapped to some Dunlop Winter Sport's (on 18's) and the car was transformed. I've been a big advocate of winter rubber for ages and not just for RWD cars. Now run it on her Merc B Class too!

ORD said: Are you ignoring the purchase cost of the winter wheels? Smear that over the time of owning the car and it's still quite a lot of pounds. you don't need winter wheels - swap the tyres over twice a year has worked fine for the last 5 years for me

my 2p I love winter tyres - mainly because the mrs has the confidence to drive with them fitted; This is the first winter I've not had M+S tyres on the pork - but that is only due to the fact that I get the train to work, and the Mrs' WRX STi has them fitted any yes, even in the arctic zone known as Watford it does make a difference. She got spooked a few years ago, with a light dusting of snow when the back end of the car stepped out a little - the tangible difference that winter tyres have made to the handling of her car in the winter months has given here a level of reassurance. Which puts my mind at rest. They went on late nov, and will be off early march (ironically, back to PS2 N rated - on a scoob - got a bargain!) I do still drive the Pork (it's on Mich SS) when the conditions are favourable, but I do notice a distinct lack of grip, even when it's dry - and I'm guessing that is down to temperature. (mind you the car can still spin it's wheels at 120mph in the wet, in a straight line - and yes that was on a track)

anonymous said: [redacted]

I'm well and truly converted to the Winter Tyres camp and have the Porsche 19" centre-lock winter set on my 997 GTS. I have never purchased a new set of Winter Wheels & Tyres as I've been fortunate to drop on nearly new sets for my last 4 cars including the GTS. I have also managed to sell every set for a small profit once the car has been sold. Once temperatures drop below 7 degrees C they make a real noticeable difference and only when you have used them will anyone fully understand the benefits. Certainly on my 997, my old BMW 1M and the wife's X5 they make a massive improvement in usability and feel. Winter tyres are not SNOW tyres which is the general misconception here in the UK.

Been using winters for the last 4 years and really enjoying the 17" set on my 996 c4. Been lots of snowy icy roads where I am over the last couple of weeks and its almost comical how slow everyone else is going. Sideways action (for me anyway) is rare on a 911, but its playtime with these tyres/conditions and 4wd. Oh yea probably safer too! Also, really looking forward to putting back on the 18" Pirellis in March time as the cars handling is transformed.

anonymous said: [redacted] I have two cars with manual gearboxes, so your second statement is demonstrably false. You don't understand the PDK-S in the GT3 so you obviously don't appreciate what manual mode means. However, neither of your comments explains the previous nonsense you posted - i don't believe that anyone else is claiming that the GT3 RS, manual or otherwise, is likely to be a better road car that the base version.

anonymous said: [redacted] more proof that you don't understand. anonymous said: [redacted] If the RS is manual that will suit those looking for a manual track car. I'm not, so no 'mental gymnastics' required.

anonymous said: [redacted] Yes of course i do. As frequently demonstrated you don't have a clue about the PDK-S gearbox. anonymous said: [redacted] AP claimed that the engine couldn't be combined with the RWS and the manual gearbox - if things subsequently change for the RS, take it up with him... Edited by sidicks on Sunday 8th February 19:20