Can you quickly educate me?

Hello everyone, Just joined, intend to read every sticky I can get my hands on, but was hoping some of the newbie-friendly forum members can give me a very quick 101 on the car I am about to look at. Background: I have had two AMGs (W210, W203), one M3 (E46), bunch of sporty Acuras, Veedubs etc. Never owned a P-car and always dismissed them as "a better M3, but gutless" I was set on getting another AMG (A C63), but a voice in the back of my head says to try a P-car. Which brings me to the car I am about to look at. The only P-car I would get is a 911, no thanks on the ****ster. The price range I am looking to stay in dictates a 996 of the early 2000 vintage. I have heard of some of the problems with the 996s, and I know the 993s and 997s command a much better price than the 996s. I can't go Turbo, but can probably pull off a C4S (mid 30s). Can someone educate me on the following: Desirability - I don't need adulation from the masses, but don't want to own a "not a real Porsche" Porsche either. Items to ask during the PPI - major engine failure likely in 10% of the cases or something right? Any other known items? engine/tranny mounts, diff seals, valve seals, etc. ? What about the gutlessness? - I know this is about handling, and I know handling from an M3. But coming from 400 ft-lbs, will I constantly be working the damn gear box to get moving? That's why I sold the E46, it got so tiresome 85% of the time. How good is the 6 speed? I have very high standards for stick shifts - I thought the E46 6 speed was horrible with its rubbery feel and horrendous driveline shunting, even after a CDV-delete. I consider an S2000/RSX 6 speed the best I have ever owned. Thanks a lot folks. I know this information is probably out there, but wouldn't hurt to get fresh takes on an old topic.

A lot has been said about the hesitation in the 911 when "putting the boot in" as its termed, when attempting to pull off. I too have suffered this disconcerting revelation when trying to dash into traffic. Although it doesn't happen all the time, when thinking deeply (my wife says thats impossible, but I attempt it occasionally at my peril) about the cause of the hesitation, we have had a plethora of answers. Its the engine, gearbox, sensors etc etc with no satisfactory conclusion. Well those cunning germans, they built the hesitation into the 991.1 because they KNEW the the 991.2 was going to be turbo and they obviously were getting ALL the 911 drivers educated in turbo lag! Its obvious really, you can now transition to the 991.2 and that spool up time will be natural feeling, only this time it will happen every time and you will think you have a GREAT deal.... Tongue firmly pushed into my cheek for those that didn't get the merest hint of sarcasm.

I cannot educate you as I'm not an expert, but this is my take... Desirability - I don't buy what trends dictate but more what I want. I wanted a 911. period. Any 911. PPI - ask to see if it has the IMS upgrade, RMS leaks, WP leaks, DME report with over revs and overall condition of the clutch, brakes and tires. Those are the big expenses. What about the gutlessness? You can compare M3's, AMGs, Audis, et al, all day long. 911 is a different animal and for sure, I won't call it gutless. It's more raw and a different experience altogether... you need to drive one to understand. How good is the 6 speed? The manual transmission is good but don't expect S2000 or Miata throws. You can improve it with a short shifter or the new mechanical/adjustable one but manual is the only way to have these cars... Now, if you have mid 30's to invest, i would suggest going the 997 route... much better interior and, in my point of view, a better exterior.

It is definetly something in software and we know how crafty the Germans can be with their code.

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Quote: Yes, search is your friend. (oft discussed topics on this forum), but never the less.... You will find a *few* individuals who will hold their noses at your water cooled 911, but frankly I've found them to be relatively few and far between. The headlight design tends to be more a divisive issue. Some people don't like the 'fried egg' shape attributed to the mkI 996, but in the end beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is an IMS bearing issue that can be catastrophic if/when it occurs. Porsche has never published the failure rates, so any stat you hear (i.e. 10%) is a guess. Plan to replace the IMS bearing (total installed cost <$3000) and move on. As part of your PPI have them i) review the maintenance history, ii) do a readout of the computer (looking for over-revs and other signs of track history) and perform a leak-down test, as well as all the usually items. Is it gutless? It's all relative I suppose. From my perspective no, but I'm not coming from a series of AMGs either ;-) Go take a test drive and see what you think. **Be forwarned there's not a lot of performance mods you can make to the 996 NA that will have a significant impact. If your dissatisfied with the performance as it, best save for a turbo, or look at a different car. Changing to a short throw shifter is a pretty common mod. If you don't like the factory shifter, you should be able to customize to a shift of your liking. The gearbox itself is quite responsive, but I do no people who have swapped the factory gearbox for a GT3 gearbox which has tighter ratios (always for tracking). Again, the test drive will help you assess against your expectations. The C4S is a looker. (My one regret is that I was unable to find a suitable C4S in my price range when I was shopping). Having said that, the C4 is all-wheel drive. It is a different feel - make sure you test drive both the C2 and the C4.

They have great engineering who can cheat our government, it's easier to cheat the common people.

Ok I'll give this a stab as I have a C4S Can someone educate me on the following: Desirability - I don't need adulation from the masses, but don't want to own a "not a real Porsche" Porsche either. Hmmm, well I would need a definition of "not a real porsche" when you look at the C4S you know it's a porsche. C4S has a lot of the same components as the turbo, just no turbo and a M96/97 engine. I get a lot on nice comments on mine such as nice ride, and when it starts well you know it's a Porsche, I have Fisters mufflers. And it has one of the best looking stances from the rear. Items to ask during the PPI - major engine failure likely in 10% of the cases or something right? Any other known items? engine/tranny mounts, diff seals, valve seals, etc. ? Most porsche problems come from not being driven and not doing maintainance. PPI go to a reputable place, have the IMS replaced with either the upgraded bearing or the "IMS Solution" both by LN Engineering. When you do the IMS replace the RMS as well. Use good oil (a whole different subject here), a person who know how to do a PPI will check all your concerns, talk to them up front about them. What about the gutlessness? - I know this is about handling, and I know handling from an M3. But coming from 400 ft-lbs, will I constantly be working the damn gear box to get moving? That's why I sold the E46, it got so tiresome 85% of the time. Well I've never heard this before 0-60 in 4.7 not fast enough for you? The C4S is very different in handling than the C2, on the 4S you can feel her pull out of the corners and dig in. But all cars handle differently, even same models, get s stiffer sway bar up front. How good is the 6 speed? I have very high standards for stick shifts - I thought the E46 6 speed was horrible with its rubbery feel and horrendous driveline shunting, even after a CDV-delete. I consider an S2000/RSX 6 speed the best I have ever owned. Can be rough, but it's a Porsche, and that's what Porsche will tell you It is what it is a Porsche with all it's little quirks. So if you get one mod it to be your car and enjoy, and yes everyone will know it's a Porsche because there is no car that even resembles it, especialy the C4S.

Yet to see it in 3 years. Drive in manual mode (PDK) with sport/sport+ mode all the time, auto start/stop mode off permanently, warm car up good, buy shell/chevron gas, test out rev limiter once in a while in sport mode or use auto/sport+ mode to run it to the limit, use launch control occasionally...............maybe my software has a Trojan hidden by those cunning Germans ? Yes I must have the "Porsche 2500-3500rpm hesitation Defeat Device.

There are turbo's in the high $20's/low $30's

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Quote: You sure you didn't purchase the "Porsche Advanced Deletion of Faulty Electronics Management" (PADFEM) package?

I love my Pcar, but you really "need" a supercharger. Compared to my GTR and R8, it is really close with the sc. When it is icy out, it is the car I drive, both for safety and if I did have a wreck, it would hurt the least on the wallet. It is comfortable, safe, fun, fast and looks great.

I own a small fleet of the affected VW diesels, although my 991 doesn't have the hesitation problem.

Note: This "gutless" German brand has a storied racing heritage and earned warehouses of championship trophies, so I fail to understand the inadequacy with those guts! Hell, there are disco-pant wearing 914's that are still eating modern cars for lunch at autocross events! ;-) If you reside near a major city, or better yet, a track, chances are there will be DE events coming in the weeks ahead. I recommend attending one of these events and driving a stock car, and a tuned car, to compare the visceral experience of those two animals. There are plenty of tweaks available to fine-tune the characteristics you may desire (susp, exhaust note, etc), and no shortage of camaraderie in that dept on this site! Welcome and good luck in your search!

Thanks for all the thoughts so far guys, appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences. On the gutlessness, let me elaborate that I personally think 0-60 times are totally irrelevant. When I am going to work or going to get a gallon of milk, I am not revving the nuts out of the engine and hitting every shift point. That's where the M3 got so tiresome, because of the jerky gearbox and constant shifting necessary to get it moving in everyday life. Where is everyone finding 997s or 996 Turbos in the 30s? I see one C4S in all of my regional craigslists and it is listed at 38k.

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Quote: I race Ducatis for my other hobby, so familiar with the appeal of track and auto-x. I have no interest in racing or tracking my cars, so its guts are measured on real world usable power in everyday scenarios.

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Quote: here: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=1&Log=0 http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=2&Log=0 http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=5&Log=0 http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=4&Log=0 http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=6&Log=0 All less than 35,000!

The day your beloved BMW can compete with the 917call me....

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Quote: hey, cool. Thanks for the links, a 997 C2 may be within reach I like the C4, but obviously will plan on driving the C2 and the C4 before deciding.

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Quote: Have a look on cars.com, you will find a turbo in the high 30's (even one in the high 20's), however, the median value seems to be in the mid 40s. Which would personally make me a little (okay, a lot) nervous about purchasing such a car for 29K - unless I knew *exactly* why the car was priced as such.

I have a 996 C2 and an e46 M3.. honestly driving around town and light "spirited driving" the M3 is the better performer, in a sense that its easier to make it go fast. I have tracked both cars, and was actually faster in the 996. so my own impression, as a driver you have to put a little more effort into the 996, but when you do it becomes a much better car.

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Quote: The 996 engine has a wide and flat torque band, which makes for very easy "around town" driving. Torque is 90% or more of peak between 3000 and (almost) 7000 rpm--red line is 7200 +/-. You can shift more frequently and keep revs between 3000-4500, or less frequently and enjoy the sound of a flat 6 above 5000 rpm (they really sing above 5K).

Stock suspension in North America can be really soft and too high - esp in early 996's. I recommend lowering springs to the ROW M030 (or equiv) ride height that Porsche Engineers designed the cars around and adding stiffer roll bars. Visually and performance-wise it makes a big difference. Cornering on your favorite twisty backroad will become one of the many legal joys of ownership. Maybe factor those costs into your budget.

Hey guys, Thanks for all your thoughts. I drove two C4S's yesterday. Both immaculately cared for and low miles, very fine examples of well loved cars. Good: The 6 speed was silky smooth. Really, really well done. The throws, the clutch take up, the shifter, everything was perfectly done. The driving position was pretty awesome, it felt like I was literally sitting on the floor. The car is TINY! It is hard to appreciate how small it is in the photos. The bad: The car is totally gutless till you wind it up over 4k RPMs and at those revs, the sport exhaust barks quite loudly. Interior felt very stripped out. I don't need active side bolsters or massaging seats, but would expect a $100k car to have bluetooth or lane change clickers on the turn signals. I don't think a non-turbo 911 is for me. I am sure it will make a great track car, but ultimately, I didn't like it for the same reason I didn't like my M3: It is the perfect car for 15% of the time and a mediocre car for 85% of the time. I find AMGs to be great cars 85% of the time and pretty ordinary 15% of the time - I am going to get a C63 as I originally planned. Thanks for all your inputs, I wish you all well!