New 2015 Carrera 991.2 - 2.9 Flat Six TURBOCHARGED!!! - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Searc... If there was a time to buy a naturally aspirated 911, it would be now? Anticipated end to an ERA, what do we think!?

It'll be terrible, obviously. After all, what do Porsche know about designing and building turbo engines? SS7

anonymous said: [redacted] My error, Friday fatigue!

For me the compelling proposition is the Carrera S with the proposed 3.8 + Turbocharger at an estimated 530bhp. Also, it eradicates the continuous debate surrounding Porsche 'holding back' the power of the Boxter/Cayman due to the impact on the 911 sales. Edited by Get2Jaime on Friday 17th October 12:03

I wonder if it will be twin turbo in an attempt to keep decent throttle response? One of the disadvantages of turbo flat engines is the relatively long intake tracts if both sides are fed from a single turbo leading to poor throttle response. A turbo on each side is much nicer.

Cards on the table, I dont want it to be turbocharged BUT... Will you be able to tell? Modern turbo systems are getting very linear in their delivery and are nothing like the 'NOTHING....BANG' delivery of yesteryear. I have driven a few cars recently where I honestly couldn't tell! Mind you, they were still crap. The throttle 'response' is electronic anyway, so what difference is there?

The noise is the problem. Today's 911s, as with all modern cars, are fairly boring because they remove you from the noise, feel and smell of older generations. The newer Turbos are even worse; you can't tell it's a flat six... in fact... you can't tell it's anything; it's just an engine (and therefore my argument of the loss of the Mezger being no great loss at all). So, to get round this, Porsche will have to use fake engine noises, surely? For shame... I'd say if you have a manual 997.2, keep hold of it!

Surely one of the great attractions of Porsche is their invention, adoption and use of new technology. This seems to be the way forward, smaller more efficient and powerful engines.

I've not driven the new turbo yet but if the M4 is anything to go by the the noise will be the issue. But I do like the idea of a 400bhp std 911!

mollytherocker said: Cards on the table, I dont want it to be turbocharged BUT... Will you be able to tell? Modern turbo systems are getting very linear in their delivery and are nothing like the 'NOTHING....BANG' delivery of yesteryear. I have driven a few cars recently where I honestly couldn't tell! Mind you, they were still crap. The throttle 'response' is electronic anyway, so what difference is there? The throttle response, even if electric, simply isn't as good as the air needs to be compressed by a turbine and pass through an intercooler before it enters the engine. There is still some 'lag' as the turbo spools up (even with small turbos and variable vanes).

All quite shocking... Even Ferrari are going this route from next year (or now with the California). The end of performance cars as we know them -- and the noise a NA screamer brings.

End of a glorious era, hopefully the GT3s will never be turbo'd.

Is the source from Porsche? Gen 2 should be the power kit version based on how Porsche have operated for many years. Will the whole range now be called the 911 turbo? Appreciate regulations etc but hope this does not happen even on the 991 turbo I didn't like throttle response compared to the C4S I drove not even going to talk about sound.

If a standard Carrera is going to be 400hp, I doubt very much the 'S' will be anywhere near 530hp - more likely a misprint of 430hp! Like any engine, turbo or otherwise, noise is a factor of exhaust suppression - look at any lightly tuned R32, R33, R34 Skyline, they can make delicious 6 pot noise. The fact that Porsche choose to subdue their engines is merely a shame that can easily be overcome with an aftermarket exhaust.

Jim1556 said: If a standard Carrera is going to be 400hp, I doubt very much the 'S' will be anywhere near 530hp - more likely a misprint of 430hp! Like any engine, turbo or otherwise, noise is a factor of exhaust suppression - look at any lightly tuned R32, R33, R34 Skyline, they can make delicious 6 pot noise. The fact that Porsche choose to subdue their engines is merely a shame that can easily be overcome with an aftermarket exhaust. Agreed on all accounts, but in the end, isn't noise simply a form of wasted energy? Wouldn't a 100.00% fuel efficient engine, something that cannot exist for too many obvious reasons, be completely silent? That logic (if it is completely flawed please point me in the right direction) is why I think engines will become somewhat quieter as they become more efficient. Why do I feel the sudden urge to go buy a 6.2L C63...

Jim1556 said: If a standard Carrera is going to be 400hp, I doubt very much the 'S' will be anywhere near 530hp - more likely a misprint of 430hp! Exactly!

it's all about linearity of response. turbos just can't match NA for response. And that's what i think we'll be missing the most.

So from what is being posted the 991.2s will be the 991gts engine and the base 991.2 will be a even smaller more powerful lump and maybe turbo 2.9 with the 981.2 following with a detuned 2.9 turbo for the S circa 380hp and maybe a flat4 for base models circa 290hp

Jim1556 said: If a standard Carrera is going to be 400hp, I doubt very much the 'S' will be anywhere near 530hp - more likely a misprint of 430hp! Like any engine, turbo or otherwise, noise is a factor of exhaust suppression - look at any lightly tuned R32, R33, R34 Skyline, they can make delicious 6 pot noise. The fact that Porsche choose to subdue their engines is merely a shame that can easily be overcome with an aftermarket exhaust. 430 which is the powerkit and 530 would make the 991 turbo redundant and would need stronger brakes, suspension etc.. Sound can be made better but nothing compared to what a NA can do.

So the Gt3 RS may well be turbocharged? Yes or no?

anonymous said: [redacted] What I was angling at is the 991.2s may well be na so hence the 991.1gts lump and lesser cars will all be smaller turbo engines and the base 981.2 a flat4 turbo

anonymous said: [redacted] I agree. Given how hard it is to tell the difference between turbo engines of similar capacity and output, it's the end of engines varying in character and feel between different marques. A turbo 4 pot Porsche or a turbo 4 pot VW? I think I would be very tempted to save £20k and go for the VW.

Is it time though that the carrera models get a hike in power, however it is achieved? In the days of 450bhp plus offerings as saloons (with four doors in some cases) from the likes of merc, Audi and BMW, the power offered by the base carrera and S is simply not enough nowadays. You also have the Audi TT (in last gen RS format) making c 10bhp more than the 991 carrera. Porsche is also starting to fall behind the likes of Ferrari, Lambo and now McLaren in the power stakes when it comes to supercars as well. As much as we stick and NA Porsche fans might moan, it may be that naturally asperated six cylinder engines have been taken as far as they can go (or close to it) - big jumps in power delivery going forward might lie with turbo motors?

Callughan said: Yes many cars do have more power but it's not really about hp with 911's. It's more power to weight and as a result they handle and stop better than most and this is reflected in class leading track times. Do you honestly believe a carrera is a light car nowadays? As for track times - dont get too hung up on whether it is 4 seconds quicker round the ring when the owners of shiny new 991 Carreras are getting slaughtered from the lights by an Audi TT........... Yes a 911 is obviously a better sportscar than offerings from BMW et al no one would argue otherwise but in recent years Porsche's competitors have made some big leaps forward in BHP and power to weight ratios

anonymous said: [redacted] Yep - agree and despite the comments about power etc, this is still a bummer Another nail in the coffin of old sportscar design

Shep911 said: Callughan said: Yes many cars do have more power but it's not really about hp with 911's. It's more power to weight and as a result they handle and stop better than most and this is reflected in class leading track times. Do you honestly believe a carrera is a light car nowadays? As for track times - dont get too hung up on whether it is 4 seconds quicker round the ring when the owners of shiny new 991 Carreras are getting slaughtered from the lights by an Audi TT........... Yes a 911 is obviously a better sportscar than offerings from BMW et al no one would argue otherwise but in recent years Porsche's competitors have made some big leaps forward in BHP and power to weight ratios 1455kg for boggo carrera is still OK TTRS is still slightly slower than basic 991 but they have two different purposes.

Er 991 carrera 1415kg, 964 1,375kg, 993 1,370kg Obviously power to weight is moving in the right direction with the 991 vs 964 but the comment was about handling, stopping and track times - I suspect you're the man that understands weight and braking far more than me when it comes to lap times

Callughan said: Shep911 said: Callughan said: Yes many cars do have more power but it's not really about hp with 911's. It's more power to weight and as a result they handle and stop better than most and this is reflected in class leading track times. Do you honestly believe a carrera is a light car nowadays? As for track times - dont get too hung up on whether it is 4 seconds quicker round the ring when the owners of shiny new 991 Carreras are getting slaughtered from the lights by an Audi TT........... Yes a 911 is obviously a better sportscar than offerings from BMW et al no one would argue otherwise but in recent years Porsche's competitors have made some big leaps forward in BHP and power to weight ratios 1455kg for boggo carrera is still OK TTRS is still slightly slower than basic 991 but they have two different purposes. Agreed sir - I understand one is for carrying hairdressing equipment according to one school of thought

Yeah don't get me wrong - it is packed with also sort of goodies and when you look at the size difference between say a 964 and 991 it is remarkable that the weight difference is so low To be honest I'm more bothered about Porsche seemingly falling behind on the power stakes - an earlier post did say that IF the 991 gets a big power hyke it will create headroom for other model such as the cayman, which is a fabolous car but is not a million miles in horsepower terms above hot hatches when it could have so much more (obviously I'm not comparing a caymen to a ford focus). It would be nice to see the base carrera with more bhp than m3s and the like and the cS getting say 450 plus at least which would create some differential with Porsche and other german marques It is a worry though with Ferrari, Lambo and McLaren all going 600bhp plus at the moment for their sportscars (458, 650 etc) - not comparing things like aventador, f12 etc as they are different league) On another note - wouldn't it be good to see a 650bhp Porsche

I admit to a little sadness when I see hot hatches that have as many horses as my Porker, but it's just childish pub bore stuff. I don't use the 300bhp in my car very often, and I certainly wouldn't get any benefit from another 100 in driving terms. It would just make me less able to use the rev range. And if the cost of more power was having a turbo six (let alone a turbo 4), I would rather stick with the lower power every day of the week. Have you ever driven a high power turbo 4? It's about as exciting as cooking porridge. You can lose your license without cracking a smile.

Its a great shame to see the NA going but with emissions rules Porsche need to future proof their engines of the future. Another thing to consider is the gear box, will the new car have an option for manual, my guess is PDK will be the only version available. Let's hope Im wrong.

hondansx said: The noise is the problem. Today's 911s, as with all modern cars, are fairly boring because they remove you from the noise, feel and smell of older generations. The newer Turbos are even worse; you can't tell it's a flat six... in fact... you can't tell it's anything; it's just an engine (and therefore my argument of the loss of the Mezger being no great loss at all). So, to get round this, Porsche will have to use fake engine noises, surely? For shame... I'd say if you have a manual 997.2, keep hold of it! Nail. head. A lot of this is out of Porsches hands though. I made my choice to 'go turbo' for many reasons, I like the noise my car makes but I appreciate others don't. I have faith that Porsche can make it work. The clips on you tube of the 991 mule don't inspire confidence! On the youtube clip the mule looks so rapid and that's another thing, a 500hp turbo 997.2 is so fast you don't need any more so I am doubting these headlines of a 530hp base car because there is no room for the flat 8 unless they give it 700hp. My car does 30 mph in about a second and 100 in 7 you can get the stop watch out and argue the toss but seriously, I can't imagine the base 911 car been given this type of capability. How would they differentiate the cars, the turbo s would need 650hp? The only way I can see this all working is if Porsche do something radical with the way the 991 looks otherwise this car is dead on arrival. I think Porsche fans will swallow the transition to turbo only if the new car looks like dynamite on the inside and outside. Edited by Carl_Docklands on Sunday 19th October 11:33

lukecollins said: Its a great shame to see the NA going but with emissions rules Porsche need to future proof their engines of the future. Another thing to consider is the gear box, will the new car have an option for manual, my guess is PDK will be the only version available. Let's hope Im wrong. I expect you're wrong. There is a big enough market (in the US) for manual 911s.

ORD said: I expect you're wrong. There is a big enough market (in the US) for manual 911s. The US market may well save the manual box for a little longer. But the 992 will be an improved PDK only surely.

I hope they follow Ferrari and Mclaren and drop the stick all together and we get the 911 version of this:

Carl_Docklands said: I hope they follow Ferrari and Mclaren and drop the stick all together and we get the 911 version of this: I am interested in why you think less choice is better.

anonymous said: [redacted] Carrera GT. Job jobbed!

mollytherocker said: Carl_Docklands said: I hope they follow Ferrari and Mclaren and drop the stick all together and we get the 911 version of this: I am interested in why you think less choice is better. I would prefer a situation where there are no compromises. Turbo, PDK, lose the stick and junk the luxo-barge interior.

Carl_Docklands said: I would prefer a situation where there are no compromises. Turbo, PDK, lose the stick and junk the luxo-barge interior. Compromises? You mean in terms of pure outright performance? The lowest ring time trumps everything else?

It's over! Get used to it... In less than 2/3 years I believe Porsche will no longer make a 'stick' So keep your old cars as they don't care about you hardcore manual dinosaurs

ferdi p said: It's over! Get used to it... In less than 2/3 years I believe Porsche will no longer make a 'stick' So keep your old cars as they don't care about you hardcore manual dinosaurs Dinosaur! RAAAAAR!!! Sorry, my 2 year old daughter makes me watch peppa pig.....

why do some spend huge sums of money on older slower less powerful cars and not buy a cheaper faster more powerful newer car? long live the dinosaur Edited by itsybitsy on Sunday 19th October 23:42

Predictable and inevitable. I agree on the comments about 500cc cylinders and multiples thereof. I suspect the Turbo and Turbo S versions will have some sort of electric drive trickery to bring something more than HP, since they would be pointless with 50hp more than the already seriously powerful next Carrera "S". All automatic, no more manual and staggeringly fast. But you know what? Laugh at me all you want but I'm keeping my black sheep 3.4 996 forever (not as only car, naturally).

mollytherocker said: Carl_Docklands said: I would prefer a situation where there are no compromises. Turbo, PDK, lose the stick and junk the luxo-barge interior. Compromises? You mean in terms of pure outright performance? The lowest ring time trumps everything else? I am not a manual fan on turbos so I will happily trade a half arsed 7 speed for a cockpit which looks like kitt out of knightrider. It's even got a button on the 918 wheel for turbo boost. Ejector seat button for the likes of mrdemon an optional extra.

Now remember you read it here first: Ignore what the CAR article says they have it wrong. The base 911 Carrera will be 2.7 litres with 370hp and the Carrera S will be 3.0 with 420hp. It looks like the power kit Carrera S will be 440hp. There is a another prototype supposedly running with a 3.0 producing 560hp, but that might be an error in the data.

Wurls said: Source?, or it's cobblers Realistic figures, in my view. Porsche is not going to start chasing 500bhp in the standard 911s. It is a battle that Porsche will not win and does not want to have (as it ultimately leads to lower profits even if you keep pace in the power race).

Wurls said: Source?, or it's cobblers Porsche factory data when they registered the prototype cars for the road...Every car including the prototypes are road registered, I can see that data. Just for fun do you want to know what's going into the Boxster/Cayman?

Reffro said: Porsche factory data when they registered the prototype cars for the road...Every car including the prototypes are road registered, I can see that data. Just for fun do you want to know what's going into the Boxster/Cayman? Turbo 4 pots that make baby Jesus cry.

OK, two engine sizes so far. 2.0l with either 231hp or 275hp. Got to assume the 275hp is the base engine and the 231hp is a special for some markets. The other engine is a 2.5l with 325hp or 335hp to go into the S models no doubt.

Reffro said: OK, two engine sizes so far. 2.0l with either 231hp or 275hp. Got to assume the 275hp is the base engine and the 231hp is a special for some markets. The other engine is a 2.5l with 325hp or 335hp to go into the S models no doubt. Nah. I would be surprised if Porsche would put out a Cayman with a turbo engine producing so little power. It will have to be above 350bhp or it will be laughed out of the playground.

ORD said: Nah. I would be surprised if Porsche would put out a Cayman with a turbo engine producing so little power. It will have to be above 350bhp or it will be laughed out of the playground. The current cars are similar power, remember that a turbo engine is going to produce significantly more torque than a NA. So with similar power and more torque it will be fine. Remember also Porsche do not want them to compete with 911 in performance terms. 335hp in the Cayman vs 370hp in the new 911 maintains the status quo.

Do we know that the 2.5 would be a 4?

Every day it sounds worse Although a flat 6 2.7 na engine sounds fun as long as they get the weight down and comes with a manual with shorter gears

Of the 4 German manufacturers, am I right in thinking their 1st offerings were the 2002 turbo, Mercedes 300td, Audi 200 turbo, and last entrant Porsche with their 930 turbo, or was it the 924 Oops forgot VW - golf g60? Edited by Mermaid on Monday 20th October 13:07

Mermaid said: Of the 4 German manufacturers, am I right in thinking their 1st offerings were the 2002 turbo, Mercedes 300td, Audi 200 turbo, and last entrant Porsche with their 930 turbo. Oops forgot VW - golf g60? The Golf G60 ran a rather fragile G Ladder supercharger, rather than a turbo

stuckmojo said: Laugh at me all you want but I'm keeping my black sheep 3.4 996 forever (not as only car, naturally). I'm starting to have the same thoughts, after more than 5yrs I keep having the itch to change it but can't bring myself to do it. Maybe I should have pushed the boat out a couple of years ago after all & bought a Mk1 GT3, oh well, I'll add it to the list that includes E30 M3 & RS2 Avant

anonymous said: [redacted] I would be shocked if the 911 Product team would allow an engine with anything other than a 3.x L designation due to marketing reasons. I don't think the market is ready for an £85k car with a 2.xL engine of any description.

anonymous said: [redacted] Good summary. However rumours of the 135iM engine being dropped in the i8 at some stage. Weight losses to come hopefully.

Mermaid said: anonymous said: [redacted] Good summary. However rumours of the 135iM engine being dropped in the i8 at some stage. Weight losses to come hopefully. Moose - I don't think those examples apply as I would say that there is no real crowded model structure in those examples and they are all fairly exotic. I wouldnt give a toss what engine was in the F40 or P1 either. Buyers understand more about the underlying tech in the cars not to care. The M4 uses a 3L turbo engine, Audi specials maybe more. I can't see Porsche giving the base Carrera an engine starting with a 2 for marketing reasons as buyers won't understand why. The I8 is just, well an I8. Porsche don't have an I8 competitor yet.

I wonder how many actual (read: non-PH) 991 drivers know the displacement of their engine? If I had to guess I'd say probably less than 20% know without having to look it up.

Are Porsche best at making engines? They didn't cover themselves in glory from 1996-2008 which is arguably when they saw their largest ever increase in sales They will probably continuing marketing to the segments they do now leveraging their hugely desirable brand, and providing the best in class drive in their competitor set group as they do currently. no reason why the proposition won't stack up competetively as it does now. If it's the best in class and most desirable brand in segment it will still perform. There will still be thrill seekers out there who want a nice looking fast car even if it 'ain't as good as it used to be back in the day'. I'd also question the lack of confidence in Porsches ability to make good driving vehicles with new tech drivetrains. they'll have a lot of time to hone it and its in their interest tI if they want to keep their position. I'm sure it'll never match up to the feel of an analogue car but might be interesting or exciting in other ways. The stuff that's out now like sound symposers and simulated engine noises will probably look very crude in 20 years time.