Buyer Beware (996 Turbo) - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Came close to buying a 996 Turbo advertised as a private sale on this website over past few days. test drove it, HPI'd it and arranged for a specialist inspection. then I happened on some info that this car wasn't privately owned in reality but part of a supercar hire group and car fleet club which shares the cars among 12 "enthusiasts" and rents them out to joe bloggs. so this car gets passed around effectively and regardless of price I don't want a 911 Turbo that has been the village bike. Just a reminder to everyone to be as careful as possible you never know what a cars been up to in its past! if advertised honestly I'm sure the car would sell anyway once it was in good condition and any repairs were done right etc but having found out this info i couldn't trust anything I'd heard about the car at that point. was mighty p'd off yesterday when i learned this having wasted lots of time and an overnight trip and costs involved to go see this car at the weekend. mighty glad today though that i learned this info before and not after the car was in my garage!

If it's a private sale I don't see how that falls under N&S rules... ergo... post up the link

there are 4 cars advertised private sale it should be easy enough to spot the most dubious looking one not sure of rules and regs on here i've reported the ad

What was your budget? 21? 25? 30? 36?

hornetrider said: What was your budget? 21? 25? 30? 36? lol i was looking for a car circa 20k :0

Undocumented engine rebuild that took two years? Ah'm oot.

Worth pointing out people buy 2000 plus launch start hammered every man and his dog etc driven ex PEC Silverstone Porsches day in day out from OPCs up to £150k without a problem (apparantly) and or without realising it. Not that I would like to buy one....of course....

Not sure if that would put me off. If the supercar club was reputable and the car passes all inspections why not. If you are going to drive it, my thought is that is would be better than a garage queen that does 2000 miles per year..

Nobbles said: Not sure if that would put me off. If the supercar club was reputable and the car passes all inspections why not. If you are going to drive it, my thought is that is would be better than a garage queen that does 2000 miles per year.. if that had been made clear from the start; or on the ad and it was priced accordingly a little cheaper then I'm sure plenty of people would still buy it. but the fact i was told a much different story and no mention of how the car was really owned/shared was enough to make me go cold on the deal.

Reminds me of that Orange 997.1 GT3 that was flipped and rolled at a track day, ended up being re-shelled and sold through an Official Porsche Dealer for top money!

V8KSN said: ... ended up being re-shelled and sold through an Official Porsche Dealer for top money! What's the problem with re-shelling a car? I thought it would be better to re-shell than to re-jig a bent chassis?

hygt2 said: V8KSN said: ... ended up being re-shelled and sold through an Official Porsche Dealer for top money! What's the problem with re-shelling a car? I thought it would be better to re-shell than to re-jig a bent chassis? Because the OPC sold the car as a 'goodun' and didn't tell the buyer it had been reshelled. When confronted with the fact it had been reshelled, they denied all knowledge. The issue was who did the work? Where did they get the shell from? Were the right torque settings used when putting it back together? etc etc

I know of a Giallo 355 Spider that was in P1 club & since served its new owner very well indeed. As said, if serviced correctly a 996 T should not present any nasty shocks for a £100k supercar. My low mileage X50 had new turbos just over a year ago & I had the oil lines all replaced at the same time. Not cheap, but something to keep it in perfect condition.

StuB said: My low mileage X50 had new turbos just over a year ago & I had the oil lines all replaced at the same time. What were the symptoms which led to your replacement turbos? How many operating hours and mileage has your car done? How much play were there? Replacing the auxiliaries makes sense as the turbos have to be balanced again anyway.

StuB said: I know of a Giallo 355 Spider that was in P1 club & since served its new owner very well indeed. As said, if serviced correctly a 996 T should not present any nasty shocks for a £100k supercar. My low mileage X50 had new turbos just over a year ago & I had the oil lines all replaced at the same time. Not cheap, but something to keep it in perfect condition. Lots of those cars are over-serviced and very well cared for. More so (in many cases) than the low mileage garage queens that have suffered years of defered maintenance.

At that sort of price you aren't in the market for a one-owner/driver car (not that I've ever seen a one owner/driver 996 turbo). If the car had mechanical issues, fair enough. Just because it was a group of enthusiasts who owned it and may have driven it a manner that it's more than capable of handling, who cares. They are not delicate cars. Look at GT3's, same engine type, lots of them only get driven at 9/10th plus on track and off, yet they sell sight unseen regardless. I think you're worrying too much, just saying And not sure about name & shame protocols, but the seller has paid for an ad on this site, and unless the seller outright lied about factual stuff on the car I don't think his car should be put down due to how many people have slept with it, I mean driven it!

Is there not a Murcielago in EVO that has done a quarter of a million miles on these sorts of things (before having a rebuild then being stuffed into a tree), the owner/runner of that particular venture lavishes plenty of attention on his cars. I would always go for a car which had been driven rather than garaged - and if I'm looking at a 996 Turbo for £20k, I would not be expecting perfection (although I agree they should be a little more honest about the history)

Again if all the facts were known in advance it would have been a different story. the guy selling it told me he is selling in on behalf of an elderly friend who doesn't like selling cars. i asked him about the owner and the situation told him i wasn't 100% happy buying from someone who doesn't own the car and was told i could talk to him if needs be and he was looking to sell off a couple of his car collection to buy an R8. He was upfront about the engine rebuild but again no mention of the group ownership or supercar for hire. it was by phoning around specialists one of them told me about the ownership and suprcar hire thing and the fact the engine rebuild wasn't done to a good standard etc and he didn't think it was a good car to buy. bit of googling soon found the car advertised for hire. it was only then when i told the seller i knew the situation that he told me the "real" situation and at that point I couldn't really trust a word now could I? at 20k it was a decent car, I am realistic at my budget i need to buy private and it won't be the best one, lowest mileage etc. I think though 6 owners, an undocumented and poor rebuild and owned by a group 12 guy and whoever wants to hire it is pushing it a step too far. if i'd known in advance I may have considered it but the shadyness and attempts to make me believe it was privately owned by an elderly collector was enough to turn me off. I'm thinking mainly of when i come to sell it on i'll struggle. If i wanted it to keep it a few years and just drive it i wouldn't be that worried but depending on my next work assignment i could be parting company with it in as little as 6 months and don't want to be left holding this baby with a big story attached to it. 20k is still 20k in any mans language it's not to be thrown around lightly now is it. sure 20k won't get you a gleaming example but not gonna settle for a dog either Edited by eskillington on Wednesday 14th January 09:45

Did the seller mention WHY the engine was rebuilt? I thought the turbo engine was very strong.

At end of day if your budget only will get you into the bottom end of the ownership then you can't be that picky. Personally providing the service history was good and the engine sounded/drove well I wouldn't be that worried. Then again in 6 months you may not have an issue... you've kind of screwed it now anyway by making a thread, you can't buy it and pass it off as OK at sale time.

xjay1337 said: At end of day if your budget only will get you into the bottom end of the ownership then you can't be that picky. +1 Generally speaking you won't know how previous owners have treated the car. It might have the outward appearance of being well maintained - e.g. requisite service book stamps - but they might've thrashed it from cold, they might've let it run almost out of oil by mistake, it might've had repair work done that wasn't documented. Any number of things could have happened that you'll likely never know about. It speaks to a wider "issue" with second hand car purchasing when people expect performance cars to have been driven sedately all of the time. Everyone wants a virgin who is amazing in bed. A 996 Turbo is likely to have been driven hard for a reasonable proportion of its life. So long as a hired car has been maintained regardless of cost, which usually they are because they represent the livelihood for these businesses, then I wouldn't feel unnecessarily bad about it. And as said if you're looking at the bottom of the market you can't really be too selective.

Sympathise with the OP. Personally, regardless of history, I wouldn't buy a car at this end of the market that someone had blatantly lied to me about that, like it or not, has a pretty big effect on value. Firstly because if they're not straight with me about one thing, what else are they trying to pull over me? Secondly, on principle. If you're going to lie about a car you're selling, you shouldn't get a sale. And now chat about this car and vendor(s) is on t'interweb for anyone in the 996TT market to google and walk away from. Pretty good karma I think

m33ufo said: You buy the car based upon its condition and outcome of the inspection. The previois ownership is irrelevant; certainly at this end of the 996T market. That's my opinion. I tend to agree with the above comments on you pay your price and take your choice. At £20k the car is very good value and seems to be at the lowest price I've see one at for a couple of years. Where do you think you are going to get one for that price? You have to rely on your own inspection firstly and then get it inspected professionally if you think it looks ok. I think you need to be spending considerably more money for what you are after. If it has been owned by a car club I bet its been looked after and maintained properly. If you want more certainty Id go to a Porsche dealer and negotiate there with your bag of cash!! Just expect to pay for the privilege.

Maybe you should use the fact that he lied to your advantage and make a cheeky offer! Dependent on the car being inspected properly of course. At £20k, any example you see is going to have some issue or another. Personally I think you should either up your budget or look for something else.

Mario149 said: Sympathise with the OP. Personally, regardless of history, I wouldn't buy a car at this end of the market that someone had blatantly lied to me about that, like it or not, has a pretty big effect on value. Firstly because if they're not straight with me about one thing, what else are they trying to pull over me? Secondly, on principle. If you're going to lie about a car you're selling, you shouldn't get a sale. And now chat about this car and vendor(s) is on t'interweb for anyone in the 996TT market to google and walk away from. Pretty good karma I think cheers for the sympathies most on here seem to think its my own fault for being so stupid as to expect a car advertised for close to 22k shouldn't be lied about being the town tart! I have seen a few cars over the past few months sold for close to 20k mostly circa 100k milers which i'm fine with and the wear and tear/condition that comes with, which i've no issue with. How much do you think dealers gave for the cars advertised for 24k+ which they will prob part with for a good offer of 23? dealer I know offered a guy with an 85k black manual in decent shape 20k trde in before xmas and the guy wanted 22 only. private sellers to dealers are not getting the 25 to 30k you see cars on for now. so assuming i can get a 996T privately for 20 to 22k without it having a sketchy past isn't too deluded in my mind. I'm not expecting the standard of car thats for sale for big money just a decent car. as mentioned several times if i'd known from the start i may have bought it anyway but on principle of being lied to and mucked about I'm not buying this one. how many of you would part with 20k (he was haggling for 21 anyway with me offering 20 at this point)for a car with an undocumented engine rebuild which has been shared by 12 owners and hired out to the public? I was offered a really good car via a PH thread for 22 last week but then the owner had a change of heart and has decided to not sell now but he thought 22 was fair money. I also missed out on one to a dealer for 21 (was willing to pay the price just got there faster than me) which can now be found in the classifieds for 29k, owner assures me the car needed a wheel refurb and small repair to front bumper that was it. I approached a very well known Porsche specialist dealer last week about selling my 911SC, he said the car was worth about 25 privately but they would only pay between 5 and 15 subject to inspection for an outright sale to them. so if worth 25 private what do you think they would charge for it on their forecourt? dealer prices ain't private prices its just that most cars for sale are with dealers and they price them accordingly. I raised this thread to highlight that you can't be too careful and all isn't always as it seems, people lie etc. But seems its not the seller who was the vilain here but me for having too high expectations

It's not exactly the kind of thing a seller would volunteer though is it. If the car checks out OK who cares.

jakesmith said: It's not exactly the kind of thing a seller would volunteer though is it. If the car checks out OK who cares. i care, and i'd bet most people about to hand over their 20 or 21k care. when i come to resell it and no one wants to touch it i'd definitely care

It's a sellers market for many 911s just now and it sounds like you are the "bridesmaid" on all the ones that have interested you. 1 or 2 that got away could be excusable but you say you've been actively looking since last summer and still can't find one that suits your budget. Even the guy that you say you had a deal with wouldn't take your money at £22k because he decided the bid was too low and he'll get more money in the summer. You'd be better off reducing your sights from a Turbo at a budget of £20k because I think you have missed the boat mate. Sounds like you want to find that elusive "bargain" that you can make money on! 911's should be bought for the driving experience not to make money. Good luck finding something within your budget.

eskillington said: i care, and i'd bet most people about to hand over their 20 or 21k care. when i come to resell it and no one wants to touch it i'd definitely care But what you'd be paying reflects that, I think what most are saying here is that the chequered history is reflected in the price at £20k (assuming it PPIs OK)

Flying911 said: It's a sellers market for many 911s just now and it sounds like you are the "bridesmaid" on all the ones that have interested you. 1 or 2 that got away could be excusable but you say you've been actively looking since last summer and still can't find one that suits your budget. Even the guy that you say you had a deal with wouldn't take your money at £22k because he decided the bid was too low and he'll get more money in the summer. You'd be better off reducing your sights from a Turbo at a budget of £20k because I think you have missed the boat mate. Sounds like you want to find that elusive "bargain" that you can make money on! 911's should be bought for the driving experience not to make money. Good luck finding something within your budget. In one!

You buy the car based upon its condition and outcome of the inspection. The previous ownership is irrelevant; certainly at this end of the 996T market. That's my opinion. Edited by m33ufo on Wednesday 14th January 18:27

Flying911 said: sounds like you are the "bridesmaid" on all the ones that have interested you. 1 or 2 that got away could be excusable but you say you've been actively looking since last summer and still can't find one that suits your budget. Only sold my Cayenne GTS Xmas week; so wasn't in a position to buy until I sold that. Been watching cars since the summer but only been in a position to pull the trigger since Xmas which is only 3 weeks ago. Flying911 said: Even the guy that you say you had a deal with wouldn't take your money at £22k because he decided the bid was too low and he'll get more money in the summer. the guy contacted me from my other thread saying he had a good car and from the pics and specs it looked great. he threw the price out there; maybe since then he's decided he could fetch more in the summer in a rising market and is within his rights to change his mind if he doesn't need to sell right now. Flying911 said: Sounds like you want to find that elusive "bargain" that you can make money on! 911's should be bought for the driving experience not to make money. more a case of I don't think they are worth the money to me personally. if going abovce 25 i'd turn my attentions to a few other cars other than the 996 Turbo. If I can get one for that price I will and if not I'll buy something else. I can afford to go higher I just don't want to. I agree they are for driving, if after an investment then yes going higher in price would be the way to go, i just fancy a decent fast car that won't depreciate much. My 911SC has appreciated plenty; this 996 was to be my daily driver. I would buy the CatD that is on for 21 looks a good car for what I'm after if I was gonna keep it longterm. There is a strong chance I will be relocating late in the year and would rather not risk getting stuck with it. For now I'll have to be content with my daily driver being the 53 plate N/A Subaru Forester that smells like my dogs

hygt2 said: What were the symptoms which led to your replacement turbos? How many operating hours and mileage has your car done? How much play were there? Replacing the auxiliaries makes sense as the turbos have to be balanced again anyway. I was told & found very hard to believe BOTH turbos would not rotate freely when it went in for service. I drove it in & it generated usual thrust levels. Will not be back to said service location again. The (now fired) service manager talked so much BS (I am a Mechanical Engineer having worked in aerospace) so got it verified locally & shipped to 9E for full remedial a. They then showed my plus, air filter etc that reinforced my view further. Bit of a horror story.

James44 said: eskillington said: i care, and i'd bet most people about to hand over their 20 or 21k care. when i come to resell it and no one wants to touch it i'd definitely care But what you'd be paying reflects that, I think what most are saying here is that the chequered history is reflected in the price at £20k (assuming it PPIs OK) ....but the history wasn't disclosed, it was found out.

Mario149 said: James44 said: eskillington said: i care, and i'd bet most people about to hand over their 20 or 21k care. when i come to resell it and no one wants to touch it i'd definitely care But what you'd be paying reflects that, I think what most are saying here is that the chequered history is reflected in the price at £20k (assuming it PPIs OK) ....but the history wasn't disclosed, it was found out. Doesn't make it a better or worse car. Yet again, you are buying a car based upon condition, maintenance history etc. If it's a decent car who really cares? You could have a 1 private owner car that's been thrashed every single day of its life!

eskillington said: cheers for the sympathies most on here seem to think its my own fault for being so stupid as to expect a car advertised for close to 22k shouldn't be lied about being the town tart! I had a similar-ish thing happen to me a couple of years ago. I went to a dealer and spent £4.5k on a 2003 Mini Cooper S, naively thinking that being a dealer he might have had his in house mechanic give it a once over to make sure it was fit for sale and wouldn't need work for at least a few months. Drove it for a few days, then gave it to my mechanic, who has looked after many of my higher end cars (for relative peanuts), to check why a window had stopped working, also asked him to give it a once over. Long story short, it cost me £900 to get it into a state where I could commute in it without doing damage to the car or me. I posted as much up on a PH thread and basically received a "what did you expect?" from 90% of people. I think many on here are quick assume others have been idiots for having the wool pulled over their eyes, but I suspect they would be less impressed if it happened to them

m33ufo said: Doesn't make it a better or worse car. Yet again, you are buying a car based upon condition, maintenance history etc. If it's a decent car who really cares? You could have a 1 private owner car that's been thrashed every single day of its life! It might do. In a private sale you are buying the owner as well as the car to a degree and placing trust in them in a way you are not with a dealer where you have at least some comeback. Even if you get a PPI it's only basically a once over to make sure there's nothing blindingly obvious/terminal about to happen. If I'm buying an expensive-to-look-after car privately, I want my instinct about the seller to tell me that he's looked after it because he's cared about and it's been his P&J and not skimped or cut corners. Someone lying point blank and being found out should set alarm bells off in everyone's head. Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 14th January 19:35

Mario149 said: It might do. In a private sale you are buying the owner as well as the car to a degree and placing trust in them in a way you are not with a dealer where you have at least some comeback. Even if you get a PPI it's only basically a once over to make sure there's nothing blindingly obvious/terminal about to happen. If I'm buying an expensive-to-look-after car privately, I want my instinct about the seller to tell me that he's looked after it because he's cared about and it's been his P&J. Someone lying point blank and being found out should set alarm bells off in everyone's head. You're buying a 10 plus year old used car. A hell of a lot can happen in 10 years. Unfortunately, your "instinct" on a seller has no value in reality.

I'd be weary of the tosser in chinos personally even more so if he lived in sw3

jakesmith said: I'd be weary of the tosser in chinos personally even more so if he lived in sw3 More wary of Mr Chino than Terry "it's mint innit bruv" Smith?

m33ufo said: Mario149 said: It might do. In a private sale you are buying the owner as well as the car to a degree and placing trust in them in a way you are not with a dealer where you have at least some comeback. Even if you get a PPI it's only basically a once over to make sure there's nothing blindingly obvious/terminal about to happen. If I'm buying an expensive-to-look-after car privately, I want my instinct about the seller to tell me that he's looked after it because he's cared about and it's been his P&J. Someone lying point blank and being found out should set alarm bells off in everyone's head. You're buying a 10 plus year old used car. A hell of a lot can happen in 10 years. Unfortunately, your "instinct" on a seller has no value in reality. So, all other things being equal, you'd be as happy to buy a 10 year old 911 off the driveway of a chav on a council estate with minimal grasp of the English language and a rolly hanging from the corner of his mouth, than you would someone in chinos and shirt showing you the car in a double garage underneath their mews house in Chelsea with his GT3 parked next to it? Come off it. The above is an extreme example, but instinct/stereotyping/judging people (whatever you want to call it) can and should affect your decision making. Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 14th January 22:05

Mario149 said: So, all other things being equal, you'd be as happy to buy a 10 year old 911 off the driveway of a chav on a council estate with minimal grasp of the English language and a rolly hanging from the corner of his mouth, than you would someone in chinos and shirt showing you the car in a double garage underneath their mews house in Chelsea with his GT3 parked next to it? Come off it. The above is an extreme example, but instinct/stereotyping/judging people (whatever you want to call it) can and should affect your decision making. Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 14th January 22:05 Point well made Mario, but misses the essence of the conversation ... at £20k for a 996T we are talking about the 'chav on council estate' end of the 996T market. Plus if you put on a nicely ironed striped shirt and chinos, some people will buy anything off you :-) J

Mario149 said: m33ufo said: Mario149 said: It might do. In a private sale you are buying the owner as well as the car to a degree and placing trust in them in a way you are not with a dealer where you have at least some comeback. Even if you get a PPI it's only basically a once over to make sure there's nothing blindingly obvious/terminal about to happen. If I'm buying an expensive-to-look-after car privately, I want my instinct about the seller to tell me that he's looked after it because he's cared about and it's been his P&J. Someone lying point blank and being found out should set alarm bells off in everyone's head. You're buying a 10 plus year old used car. A hell of a lot can happen in 10 years. Unfortunately, your "instinct" on a seller has no value in reality. So, all other things being equal, you'd be as happy to buy a 10 year old 911 off the driveway of a chav on a council estate with minimal grasp of the English language and a rolly hanging from the corner of his mouth, than you would someone in chinos and shirt showing you the car in a double garage underneath their mews house in Chelsea with his GT3 parked next to it? Come off it. The above is an extreme example, but instinct/stereotyping/judging people (whatever you want to call it) can and should affect your decision making. Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 14th January 22:05 You've proven my point. You're trusting someone because they're giving the appearance of affluence when in fact the car is owned by the bank and they're waiting for the bailiff to evict them! I maintain, you buy a car on condition. You cannot rely on a private seller being forthcoming with the truth - no matter how impressed you are by their subterranean garage. In the case as it has been presented by the OP, I can appreciate that he may not now be interested in the car. But given that beggars can rarely be choosers, the fact that the car was owned by a car club would personally have no relevance to me assuming that he was happy with the findings of the inspection. I'm even more at odds with the fact that (if I read it correctly?), he'd be happier buying an insurance write off which is always going to be valued 30 or 40% less than the equivalent non-cat car. That's all I have to contribute.

Buy on condition. This is all that matters. All the rest is fluff and mirrors.

Must say im with the OP on this. And know for sure i would feel the same way as him in regards to the way they went about the sale. I would have tried a cheeky offer after finding out about the history.

Akuka said: Must say im with the OP on this. And know for sure i would feel the same way as him in regards to the way they went about the sale. Couldn't agree more. Plenty on this thread arguing the toss just for the sake of it.

mollytherocker said: Buy on condition. This is all that matters. All the rest is fluff and mirrors. Yes, but this is meaningless in practice. You don't KNOW the condition unless you have a very detailed and expensive inspection done, and even then it wont tell you everything.

hornetrider said: Akuka said: Must say im with the OP on this. And know for sure i would feel the same way as him in regards to the way they went about the sale. Couldn't agree more. Plenty on this thread arguing the toss just for the sake of it. :yep: OP hope you find a better car. The vendor(s) of that one sounds like someone to be avoided. Let one of the richer than yaou types above spunk that sort of money on a ringer, if they think it's an acceptable way of selling/buying a car. Then make a note of their usernames so you're not tempted to buy it in a year's time once they've realised it's a POS and chucked a £300 private plate on it to disguise it and shift it on.

Two issues really, one is does the OP want that car with that history in that condition? Clearly not. The second is the seller mis-representing the car. Now if they just omit details of the history that's to be expected. If they lie and actively give a different story then that's different. For me, I'm not unsure of buying a club car wouldn't completely put me off. The seller mis-representing, that's not for me, I would not buy. Bert

m33ufo said: Mario149 said: m33ufo said: Mario149 said: It might do. In a private sale you are buying the owner as well as the car to a degree and placing trust in them in a way you are not with a dealer where you have at least some comeback. Even if you get a PPI it's only basically a once over to make sure there's nothing blindingly obvious/terminal about to happen. If I'm buying an expensive-to-look-after car privately, I want my instinct about the seller to tell me that he's looked after it because he's cared about and it's been his P&J. Someone lying point blank and being found out should set alarm bells off in everyone's head. You're buying a 10 plus year old used car. A hell of a lot can happen in 10 years. Unfortunately, your "instinct" on a seller has no value in reality. So, all other things being equal, you'd be as happy to buy a 10 year old 911 off the driveway of a chav on a council estate with minimal grasp of the English language and a rolly hanging from the corner of his mouth, than you would someone in chinos and shirt showing you the car in a double garage underneath their mews house in Chelsea with his GT3 parked next to it? Come off it. The above is an extreme example, but instinct/stereotyping/judging people (whatever you want to call it) can and should affect your decision making. Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 14th January 22:05 You've proven my point. You're trusting someone because they're giving the appearance of affluence when in fact the car is owned by the bank and they're waiting for the bailiff to evict them! I maintain, you buy a car on condition. You cannot rely on a private seller being forthcoming with the truth - no matter how impressed you are by their subterranean garage. In the case as it has been presented by the OP, I can appreciate that he may not now be interested in the car. But given that beggars can rarely be choosers, the fact that the car was owned by a car club would personally have no relevance to me assuming that he was happy with the findings of the inspection. I'm even more at odds with the fact that (if I read it correctly?), he'd be happier buying an insurance write off which is always going to be valued 30 or 40% less than the equivalent non-cat car. That's all I have to contribute. Of course you're trusting someone more based on their appearance! We all do it every single day of our lives! If you'd rather buy a £21k 911 from a dodgy looking bloke on a council estate than from someone with a GT3 in the garage in Chelsea, or would even consider them with equal weighting, I'm sorry to say you are in the minority here by quite a long way. Yes we're talking degrees of "dodginess" here, but my point still stands. Is the OP being unrealistic in his price expectations? Maybe. But after being lied to about something rather important and catching them out, some people on here (although not you I think) seem to think he should have just sucked it up and gone for it anyway, even though he's not mad desperate for a 911TT. You couldn't make it up

OpulentBob said: hornetrider said: Akuka said: Must say im with the OP on this. And know for sure i would feel the same way as him in regards to the way they went about the sale. Couldn't agree more. Plenty on this thread arguing the toss just for the sake of it. :yep: OP hope you find a better car. The vendor(s) of that one sounds like someone to be avoided. Let one of the richer than yaou types above spunk that sort of money on a ringer, if they think it's an acceptable way of selling/buying a car. Then make a note of their usernames so you're not tempted to buy it in a year's time once they've realised it's a POS and chucked a £300 private plate on it to disguise it and shift it on. All of the above a lot

hygt2 said: V8KSN said: ... ended up being re-shelled and sold through an Official Porsche Dealer for top money! What's the problem with re-shelling a car? I thought it would be better to re-shell than to re-jig a bent chassis? Here, here.......agreed.

I sold an 89 930 in shorts flip flops and a sports vest. Also made an 11k profit. Never judge a book by its cover buy on condition/history. On another note there isn't any "Chavs" that I'm aware of running around in a 996 Turbo on a council estate. While stereotyping I nearly bought an 89 Carrera 3.2 from a reputable "Classic Car" dealer (high end stuff) and the car though looked nice was very poor and when questioned why it hadn't had a service for 4 years, the response was "I'm sure it has the previous owner won't have had the book stamped" yeah right that old chestnut. As a Yorkshire man the old saying is "if there's doubt do nowt" walk away there's plenty about. I contacted the OP with a view of selling my car which I can assure you is a great example and different from all the run of the mill stuff, its also my 3rd 996 Turbo. I was only going to move it on as I am in the process of getting into the buy to let property market. Having looked at the market it my opinion and through experience its worth more than I originally suggested so have decided to hang on until the Summer if I can bring myself to part with it!

Not sure what the fuss is about really, although the seller could have advised that the car was a previous hire car. This could have been resolved by the seller including a note that it had received a full inspection by an OPC and sticking a picture up of the feedback/report. All a bit much effort for some people and it sounds like the car is at the bottom end of the market. I remember seeing a 355 up for sale still with the Silvesrtone track day stripes on and advertised as an ex-track experience car. It sold within a couple of weeks as it had receipts of a full engine and gearbox rebuild, respray and was £10k below the other cars in the classifieds. These cars are made to take the abuse as long as they're maintained, inspected and you believe it's in good condition - get it bought.

fastgerman said: Not sure what the fuss is about really, although the seller could have advised that the car was a previous hire car. This could have been resolved by the seller including a note that it had received a full inspection by an OPC and sticking a picture up of the feedback/report. All a bit much effort for some people and it sounds like the car is at the bottom end of the market. I remember seeing a 355 up for sale still with the Silvesrtone track day stripes on and advertised as an ex-track experience car. It sold within a couple of weeks as it had receipts of a full engine and gearbox rebuild, respray and was £10k below the other cars in the classifieds. These cars are made to take the abuse as long as they're maintained, inspected and you believe it's in good condition - get it bought. I tend to agree, but I think a lot of buyers when they purchase a car always have in the back of their mind that they will eventually sell it on, so history such as this may put certain types of buyers off. I sold my GT3 to a dealer at a profit, the car had enjoyed a few track days and had been "driven as intended" previous owners had taken it down to VMAX at Bruntingthorpe but the history and condition of the vehicle were great, so no issues. I note the car in question has had an engine rebuild, takes some doing on a Metzger lump!! Love to have a read of the "Over revs" diagnosis report!

Crimp said: I note the car in question has had an engine rebuild, takes some doing on a Metzger lump!! Love to have a read of the "Over revs" diagnosis report! timing chain broke. think that was with previous owners. i take it they bought this car as a going concern or just very cheap as a result. could makes assumptions that as they picked it up at the end of what they say is a 2 year rebuild and falling out with the owner and garage they may well have bought it before the repair was complete on the cheap and paid the garage off when the owner wanted out

Crimp, nice car, but an awful, awful chav plate.

I'll keep saying this I am realistic about what to expect in the 20 to low 20s portion of the market i would still have been interested if the car was advertised: former fleet club / supercar for hire club car engine rebuild undocumented (specialist I spoke to told me it wasn't done well and he'd avoid the car even at that price) reasonable condition considering open to full inspection 20k-ish but being lied to and misdirected and then expected to smile through my teeth and do a deal anyway is not for me and not ho wi've ever bought and sold cars personally. maybe I'm being too principled here but as a buyer it was enough to put me off. a lot of people me included knowing all the facts up front would still think it was worth a poke around and I'm putting facts I learned out there for peoples benefit rather them go in blind. In one hand I'm accused of expecting a pristine shiny car in the other when i said i would possibly consider Cat D even at my budget I'm slaughtered as well for having low standards. the reason a car was CatD'd and the repairs involved and proof of such would be what i cared about. this car had a significant engine rebuild but no docs to prove what was done and the standard to which it was done, to some that would be worse than a CatD repair. the facts and life of this car if known in advance wouldn't have been the issue its how the advertising and selling of the car was done that was the issue. I once bought a Smart Roadster Coupe when i lived in ireland (no HPI to check insurance write offs etc) and was chuffed with it, guy from a forum pointed out he knew the former owner and the car had been rolled and had a significant rebuild, all panels off new monocoque etc. i was freaked out but got details of the former owner (didn't buy from him but a dealer) who rolled it he emailed me pics of the car after the incident and all the repairs that were carried out including the massive bill for the rebuild and respray. the dealers knew nothing but offered to take the car back. having seen the work carried out and getting the car checked over by smart specialist etc I was happy to keep it, it was brilliant never missed a beat and that car lives on today i saw it advertised recently and thought of buying it back.

OpulentBob said: Crimp, nice car, but an awful, awful chav plate. Got a normal size one on now as its just gone through the MOT (Today-passed )I take it you are referring to the dimensions of said plate? The plate has a meaning to it. its my name "Ed" and my eldest sons initials "JET" which to be honest is best how to describe this beast also!!

eskillington said: ... engine rebuild undocumented (specialist I spoke to told me it wasn't done well and he'd avoid the car even at that price) ... If it's undocumented, how does this specialist know it wasn't done well? Not having a dig - genuinely interested. Unless the specialist who made that comment was the one that did the crap job, I'm not sure how they'd know?

davek_964 said: If it's undocumented, how does this specialist know it wasn't done well? Not having a dig - genuinely interested. Unless the specialist who made that comment was the one that did the crap job, I'm not sure how they'd know? didn't delve into it the guy i spoke to has worked on the car and serviced it. when i called him he was very forthcoming with info and volunteerd the fact it had been rebuilt and in his opinion badly, that he'd be willing to do a PPI for me but in his opinion it wasn't done well and when i asked about the owners he told me what he knew which at that point had me cold. Unless he wants to buy it and did a good job at turning me off it

eskillington said: davek_964 said: If it's undocumented, how does this specialist know it wasn't done well? Not having a dig - genuinely interested. Unless the specialist who made that comment was the one that did the crap job, I'm not sure how they'd know? didn't delve into it the guy i spoke to has worked on the car and serviced it. when i called him he was very forthcoming with info and volunteerd the fact it had been rebuilt and in his opinion badly, that he'd be willing to do a PPI for me but in his opinion it wasn't done well and when i asked about the owners he told me what he knew which at that point had me cold. Unless he wants to buy it and did a good job at turning me off it OK - if he's been servicing it since the rebuild, I guess there may be plenty of clues it's wasn't a good job.

Mr Skillington, I've noted your comments and as the seller of the vehicle I think I need to put them in context: "Due Diligence" Before You Viewed - you never once phoned me to talk about the car before viewing. All exchanges were by email so I was responding to the questions you put. If it was me I'd always want to speak to the seller. Viewing - Should I have explained that the seller was connected to the Fantasy Garage ? Maybe I should have drawn your attention to that, but the history file that I looked out for you to inspect with the Service book has the name Fantasy Garage appearing on the bills!! You never checked the Service Book or history file against the advert. It’s the first thing I'd do if viewing a car. Because you didn’t check the history, didn't speak to me on the phone and didn't even discuss price when you viewed, I didn't really know if you were a serious buyer or not. You also said you were also considering another car down South that a mate in the trade was checking out for you. From your posts I now realise the seller seems to have decided your £22k wasn't enough. Did you lie by not telling me this or is it just part of the negotiation process ? The latter I think. Inspection - It was actually me that suggested that you speak to the Porsche specialist in Edinburgh that had serviced the car recently rather than the one in Stirling which is an hour away. I gave you his name and website address to contact. Doesn’t sound like someone hiding something does it? The specialist knows the car reasonably well and knows that the seller is connected to the Fantasy Garage. I didn't prime him to say anything or ask him to lie. I spoke to him today to ask him what he'd said about the rebuild and he assured me he advised you that he was aware that was an issue over the time it took, but there was no question over the technical competency of the actual rebuild either then or now. Your comments on it being a poor rebuild are unfounded. Fantasy Garage - As soon as you asked I told you about the car usage via this club. It does have around 12 members who are all quite senior ie average age well over 50 and treat the car as their own, so it's hardly boy racers. Probably only 4 or 5 actually use the 911 in any year and even then its only for maybe 20 days or so in total. Similiarly although the car is nominally for hire, it's not popular for hire having only been hired twice in the last 3 years and once in last year. It never goes near a track day. Again I told you all this so your comments on it being "town bike" are again unfounded and disrespectful. You can see from the annual mileage its only getting light usage. Taken against other 911's its current ownership/usage is not materially different from any regular car. The Rebuild - the previous owner had the rebuild done due to a timing chain breaking and while they were happy with the end result, they were not happy with the time it took. The led to a dispute over the bill which resulted in the paperwork not being issued. Yes, the current or previous owner should have pressed for this but didn't. The car has done almost 17,000 in the 3 years since then or around 5,500 miles per annum trouble free. I explained this all to you. The car is very fairly priced for what it is and arguably anyone buying it is getting the rebuild for nothing as the full detail/evidence isn't there to support it. The car was serviced at both 80k and 82k (Pre & post rebuild) and there are receipts for quite a bit of the supporting work round the rebuild I'm sorry if you think I didn't voluntarily offer up some information that I ought to have but you hadn’t really convinced me you weren’t a tyre kicker. The suggestion that I lied about anything is also unfounded. If I was in the market for a 911 Turbo I’d buy this and I do know its history. I’ve already got a 911 though so one is enough for me!! There's a lot of sound advice above on buying a 911 Turbo. I'd take that advice. Good luck! Regards

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/popcorn.gif

A sound repost to the OP, I know who my money is on.

I've no interest in a p***ing match on this or entertaining the masses but you're completely entitled to your opinion and perspective on events as am I. If your ad or the early exchanges had given the facts I may well have bought the car anyway but it didn't and I was left in a position where I felt the wool was being pulled and I had no confidence in the deal. cramond7 said: If it was me I'd always want to speak to the seller. agreed and I did in person when i travelled to Edinburgh at the soonest opportunity. as the seller and not the "owner" as far as I was aware you were a bloke doing another bloke a favour cramond7 said: Because you didn’t check the history, didn't speak to me on the phone and didn't even discuss price when you viewed, I didn't really know if you were a serious buyer or not. I spoke to you in person we'd discussed the approx price via email and again I travelled all the way to see the car, told you i had another potential car and was thinking of getting both PPI'd. tyre kickers don't go getting up at 6:30am on a sat morning to catch a train to see a car by 10:30am as you weren't available after that. i asked about the owner's plans etc and you told me about the owner as a single guy and had plenty opportunity to divulge the car club scenario. not sure when is a good time to let that be know if you have intentions of making it known. if it was me at the start would prob be best that way you end up with someone who is willing to take it on. I would have still been interested had i known from the early exchanges cramond7 said: You also said you were also considering another car down South that a mate in the trade was checking out for you. From your posts I now realise the seller seems to have decided your £22k wasn't enough. Did you lie by not telling me this or is it just part of the negotiation process ? The latter I think. . yes a guy contacted me on friday night to say he had a great car, my dealer mate being down south and me too far away was going to view it for me, Crimp (potential seller of that car) can verify that. he contacted me he threw his price out there and subsequently changed his mind totally within his rights and mine as a buyer to look for the best car and deal I can get. when i met you on saturday i made no promises i told you about the potential of another car and the fact I'd be exploring that. cramond7 said: Inspection - It was actually me that suggested that you speak to the Porsche specialist in Edinburgh that had serviced the car recently rather than the one in Stirling which is an hour away. I gave you his name and website address to contact. Doesn’t sound like someone hiding something does it? The specialist knows the car reasonably well and knows that the seller is connected to the Fantasy Garage. I didn't prime him to say anything or ask him to lie. I spoke to him today to ask him what he'd said about the rebuild and he assured me he advised you that he was aware that was an issue over the time it took, but there was no question over the technical competency of the actual rebuild either then or now. Your comments on it being a poor rebuild are unfounded. I spoke to both, the sterling guy was aware of the car but i was trying to get an inspection as convenient for you as possible so i contacted one of the 2 guys you suggested. all i'll say on that is the guy gave me his opinion, don't really want to cause any issues for that guy but i appreciated his opinion and that was the first time i'd heard mention of The Fantasy Garage. cramond7 said: Fantasy Garage - As soon as you asked I told you about the car usage via this club. It does have around 12 members who are all quite senior ie average age well over 50 and treat the car as their own, so it's hardly boy racers. Probably only 4 or 5 actually use the 911 in any year and even then its only for maybe 20 days or so in total. Similiarly although the car is nominally for hire, it's not popular for hire having only been hired twice in the last 3 years and once in last year. It never goes near a track day. Again I told you all this so your comments on it being "town bike" are again unfounded and disrespectful. You can see from the annual mileage its only getting light usage. Taken against other 911's its current ownership/usage is not materially different from any regular car. as soon as I made clear I knew the truth, you told me about it. which I'm afraid was for me like closing the gate after the horse has bolted. If i'd had all that info up front and not "i'm selling it for an elderly friend" I'd still have been interested cramond7 said: I'm sorry if you think I didn't voluntarily offer up some information that I ought to have but you hadn’t really convinced me you weren’t a tyre kicker. The suggestion that I lied about anything is also unfounded. If I was in the market for a 911 Turbo I’d buy this and I do know its history. the info that wasn't offered up would split buyers; some would some wouldn't. were you ever gonna offer it up? Or were you just; as you suggested when i said i didn't like the idea of buying from a 3rd party; gonna get me to have a conversation with the registered owner to ease any fears. here is fine line between misrepresentation, withholding info, lying etc. its up to you how you want to sell a car but the truth is I was genuine, I was interested and the way it played out resulted in me walking. bit sensitive for some maybe but as a buyer thats my choice Edited by eskillington on Friday 16th January 19:24

Interesting, always hard getting selling and buying right. I'm intrigued, just in an academic fashion to ask the seller, is it actually a private sale or the sale from a business "Fantasy Garage"? Bert

The car sounds very good to me and exactly what most people want ie well looked after and cheap. I would consider it if I was in the market for one. A 30k minter with 14,000 miles could just as easily present some big bills lets face it. They are all 10 year old cars now.

I think there's a few lessons to be learned here, one of which is making sure you volunteer all the pertinent information about a car that you're selling at the earliest opportunity to avoid even the merest hint of deviousness especially in the internet age where info is readily available and distributed. Regardless of right or wrong, this is now all over the internet with names of clubs/people for all to see. Funnily enough, I actually find PH helps with this. I keep all my servicing etc details for all my cars online here, detailing everything. It can't be a coincidence that I've managed to complete my last 2 private sales of high end cars via PH without even having to advertise, and the buyers not even going for a PPI

Stick a few k more on top mate and move onto a better car. Having owned an x experience Ferrari myself I would never do it again, yes it was cheaper then the rest but it was never right either. The car in question looks decent enough and has been for sale since last summer from memory as a friend of mine was considering it. In reality if it presents well and drives well and passes inspection its good value at £18-£20k in today's market. Infact I think I emailed the seller an offer of £20k last week myself. So if the seller wants it sold drop me a pm and I may have a punt on it and enjoy it for a few months. would make a good value car at sub £20 for someone, guess with its history and the stigma of being an x experience car and engine woes its an £18k car Edited by metsta on Friday 16th January 23:29

BertBert said: Interesting, always hard getting selling and buying right. I'm intrigued, just in an academic fashion to ask the seller, is it actually a private sale or the sale from a business "Fantasy Garage"? Bert Well said. 15all & let's call it an honourable draw. Hope both seller & buyer (OP) find a satisfactory conclusion to their quests.

anonymous said: [redacted] Spot on

anonymous said: [redacted] Welcome to planet earth. Take a chair and sit down! Its sad I know, but I just imagine that everyone is a lying crook in any transaction. Especially banks! Thats why I say over and over buy on condition! Everything else is a distraction. When a car salesman speaks, cover your ears, thats the best advice! Its down to the buyer to carry out the necessary due diligence and if you buy a car without checking it properly and just go off the sellers appearance or what he says, then sorry, tough!

I think being owned by a club is one of the biggest issues with the car and all issues should be down in black and white on the advert. If it isn't and is only available through questioning then the seller is hiding it, many people on here seem to think that's OK but certainly not me. Besides, how many times have you asked ”was this car previously owned by a car club"… you just don't. The seeker should write the ad with his post, it will sell a lot quicker than using the cock and bull story he originally tried to sell it with.

mollytherocker said: Thats why I say over and over buy on condition! Everything else is a distraction. When a car salesman speaks, cover your ears, thats the best advice! Its down to the buyer to carry out the necessary due diligence and if you buy a car without checking it properly and just go off the sellers appearance or what he says, then sorry, tough! Spot on and I've said the same - no matter how much it would be nice to take a rose tinted view of things. There's a huge amount of sanctimonious claptrap being spouted but ultimately you can rely on nothing.

Mario149 said: It can't be a coincidence that I've managed to complete my last 2 private sales of high end cars via PH without even having to advertise, and the buyers not even going for a PPI More fool the buyers.

porkaGT said: Mario149 said: It can't be a coincidence that I've managed to complete my last 2 private sales of high end cars via PH without even having to advertise, and the buyers not even going for a PPI More fool the buyers. Maybe. And it's not how I would buy a car, each to their own and all that. But I'm obviously doing something right

Mario149 said: porkaGT said: Mario149 said: It can't be a coincidence that I've managed to complete my last 2 private sales of high end cars via PH without even having to advertise, and the buyers not even going for a PPI More fool the buyers. Maybe. And it's not how I would buy a car, each to their own and all that. But I'm obviously doing something right You've succeeded in putting a potential buyer sufficiently at ease for them not to want a PPI. In my opinion a PPI protects the buyer and the seller. Your car could have significant faults that you simply aren't aware of.

anonymous said: [redacted] Not sure how this is relevant?

anonymous said: [redacted] Knowledgeable and competent? So I assume we have now dismissed 90% of car owners.

anonymous said: [redacted] You said "straightforward". I'm not sure how a straightforward seller makes a PPI unnecessary?

anonymous said: [redacted] I doubt the Porsche market is any different - unless we're being very specific and talking about niche cars or earlier models - I'm sure most air-cooled owners are anora...I mean, enthusiasts! That said, the only time I get an opportunity to scrutinise the underside of my car is when it's on a ramp at my dealers. Even then, I'm no expert! I'd feel greater comfort as a buyer or seller having a knowledgeable third party inspect a car.

anonymous said: [redacted] Amen to that. Ethical standards are unbelievably low, especially from a lot of people who seem always to be upset about the way others behave!

Fully agree,a shame that it seems to be the norm to not be upfront/honest these days,i realise only too well its caveat emptor but in this case a pretty important piece of info was not given at the outset.No reason for that unless the seller thought it might jeopardise the sale. It used to be considered a pain to sell a car, the tables are turning and its getting harder and harder to make a purchase. Shame.

Flying911 said: It's a sellers market for many 911s just now and it sounds like you are the "bridesmaid" on all the ones that have interested you. 1 or 2 that got away could be excusable but you say you've been actively looking since last summer and still can't find one that suits your budget. Even the guy that you say you had a deal with wouldn't take your money at £22k because he decided the bid was too low and he'll get more money in the summer. You'd be better off reducing your sights from a Turbo at a budget of £20k because I think you have missed the boat mate. Sounds like you want to find that elusive "bargain" that you can make money on! 911's should be bought for the driving experience not to make money. Good luck finding something within your budget. This. OP clearly can't afford what he really wants. The latest updates supposedly from the seller make it clear OP hasn't exactly told a straight story either. Another PH classic thread I feel.

As am one of the "12 enthusiasts" the original poster disparagingly refers to, and having recently been made aware of this thread, I would like to add a comment or two myself. The thread title "Buyer Beware..!!" and the tone of the comments from Mr Skillington are unnecessary, and in my opinion, an over reaction. The 911 turbo is exactly as described, all of it's history was presented accurately, along with contact details of specialists who know the car. Plans were also being made to have the car independently inspected at a specialists in Stirling. The cause of the outburst seems to be that it was not explicitly defined at the outset that the car was periodically used within a "shared ownership" organisation. There may be some truth in this, but to infer a devious web of lies was being spun to hide this is totally incorrect. To answer a question posed earlier - it is a private sale, the car belongs to an elderly friend as the original poster was told. A few of the comments about the car itself are totally and utterly unfounded and incorrect. To refer to the car as "the town tart" or the "village bike" is way off. To say "the engine rebuild wasn't done to a good standard" totally misinterprets what the Porsche specialist said, and is wrong. There is no evidence at all that the end result of the rebuild is anything but excellent. If the car is not for you, that is absolutely fine, but casting aspersions on the condition of the car is taking it too far. Maybe putting the club into context would help. We are a sociable bunch of middle aged petrol head blokes (average age 50+), and we run a car club for our own pleasure, not for profit. We are not an experience company, we do not use the cars on track, we primarily drive them on club weekends to fabulous location and roads such as Mull / Skye / Orkney / Ireland. It's true we hire the cars out to non members from time to time but we are not a rental company, we do this in our spare time, so we do at most 15-20 hires per annum. A lot of these hires are organised by a third party travel agent who organises high end self drive tours in Scotland. We do not hire cars to under 30's, we do not hire to people with poor driving histories and we do not hire them out for single days. If we have concerns at all about a prospective hirer, we don't do the hire. I manage the calendar for members and hirers, and I can tell you that over the last 3 years the 911 Turbo has been booked 24 times by club members (103 days) and hired out twice (7 days). Our cars get used, we do not pretend they are immaculate, but they get mechanically looked after and serviced regularly, in the case of the 911 Turbo at a local Porsche specialist in Edinburgh. The engine rebuild issue is a legacy issue which we inherited from the previous owner. As explained above, he fell out with the engine rebuilders and as a result no documentation was supplied. We are looking to resolve this. All I can say is the engine has run beautifully for the last 3 years, and the car pulls like an express train when the Turbos kick in :-) The 996 911 Turbo is a fantastic car and is being sold only because the owner fancies a change. It's going to be a great car, and frankly a bit of a bargain, for its next owner. There's been a lot of sound advice here about buying on condition, I can only reiterate that.

I wonder if OP will be back to clarify any of this original rant.

celticfan said: As am one of the "12 enthusiasts" the original poster disparagingly refers to, and having recently been made aware of this thread, I would like to add a comment or two myself. The thread title "Buyer Beware..!!" and the tone of the comments from Mr Skillington are unnecessary, and in my opinion, an over reaction. The 911 turbo is exactly as described, all of it's history was presented accurately, along with contact details of specialists who know the car. Plans were also being made to have the car independently inspected at a specialists in Stirling. The cause of the outburst seems to be that it was not explicitly defined at the outset that the car was periodically used within a "shared ownership" organisation. There may be some truth in this, but to infer a devious web of lies was being spun to hide this is totally incorrect. To answer a question posed earlier - it is a private sale, the car belongs to an elderly friend as the original poster was told. A few of the comments about the car itself are totally and utterly unfounded and incorrect. To refer to the car as "the town tart" or the "village bike" is way off. To say "the engine rebuild wasn't done to a good standard" totally misinterprets what the Porsche specialist said, and is wrong. There is no evidence at all that the end result of the rebuild is anything but excellent. If the car is not for you, that is absolutely fine, but casting aspersions on the condition of the car is taking it too far. Maybe putting the club into context would help. We are a sociable bunch of middle aged petrol head blokes (average age 50+), and we run a car club for our own pleasure, not for profit. We are not an experience company, we do not use the cars on track, we primarily drive them on club weekends to fabulous location and roads such as Mull / Skye / Orkney / Ireland. It's true we hire the cars out to non members from time to time but we are not a rental company, we do this in our spare time, so we do at most 15-20 hires per annum. A lot of these hires are organised by a third party travel agent who organises high end self drive tours in Scotland. We do not hire cars to under 30's, we do not hire to people with poor driving histories and we do not hire them out for single days. If we have concerns at all about a prospective hirer, we don't do the hire. I manage the calendar for members and hirers, and I can tell you that over the last 3 years the 911 Turbo has been booked 24 times by club members (103 days) and hired out twice (7 days). Our cars get used, we do not pretend they are immaculate, but they get mechanically looked after and serviced regularly, in the case of the 911 Turbo at a local Porsche specialist in Edinburgh. The engine rebuild issue is a legacy issue which we inherited from the previous owner. As explained above, he fell out with the engine rebuilders and as a result no documentation was supplied. We are looking to resolve this. All I can say is the engine has run beautifully for the last 3 years, and the car pulls like an express train when the Turbos kick in :-) The 996 911 Turbo is a fantastic car and is being sold only because the owner fancies a change. It's going to be a great car, and frankly a bit of a bargain, for its next owner. There's been a lot of sound advice here about buying on condition, I can only reiterate that. Pity a lot of the info above wasn't available early on to allow an individual to make up their mind whether this car was for them or not. as seen throughout this post some have no issue with it and some share my outlook. If the ad contained all the info now being volunteered then the car would sell and to the right person. If you personally were considering buying a car and you happened on this info; and it wasn't provided to you buy the "seller"; how would you feel about the deal? would you want to continue to deal with the person(s) involved, would you still buy the car? where would your confidence levels be at? whether it represents good value at the price its still a lot of your hard earned to part with and not something to do lightly. when the car is to be sold on in time you then have to sell this story and history along with car based on its merits. the questions were asked and the information wasn't shared or the answers were economical. again we have caveats about whether it was being hidden; it wasn't being shared that much i do know, it was up to me to find out. I happened to feel my time was wasted I'm not just around the corner to pop round and kick the tyres. I travelled to Edinburgh stayed overnight etc and was in the process of booking a PPI inspection at my cost when i found out about the car. My tone and attitude reflect how peed off i was as a result, so maybe when the next punter comes calling to avoid something similar and the car being judged on its merits alone just try being upfront and everyone would be better off.

eskillington said: Came close to buying a 996 Turbo advertised as a private sale on this website over past few days. test drove it, HPI'd it and arranged for a specialist inspection. then I happened on some info that this car wasn't privately owned in reality but part of a supercar hire group and car fleet club which shares the cars among 12 "enthusiasts" and rents them out to joe bloggs. so this car gets passed around effectively and regardless of price I don't want a 911 Turbo that has been the village bike. Just a reminder to everyone to be as careful as possible you never know what a cars been up to in its past! if advertised honestly I'm sure the car would sell anyway once it was in good condition and any repairs were done right etc but having found out this info i couldn't trust anything I'd heard about the car at that point. was mighty p'd off yesterday when i learned this having wasted lots of time and an overnight trip and costs involved to go see this car at the weekend. mighty glad today though that i learned this info before and not after the car was in my garage! Which part of this is untrue?

move on.........................

darronwall said: move on......................... Agreed. To the OP good luck with your search

Crimp said: Agreed. To the OP good luck with your search agreed myself! have a deposit gone down on a car now awaiting Peter Morgan PPI this week

wasn't there a Peter Morgan thread some while ago?..............

After a bit of time and effort I've managed to get my hands on a £20 996TT. 54 plate black with 122k miles, tip, mechanically perfect, needs an undertray and a low tone horn. needs the front bumper resprayed and wheel refurb. came with original turbo twists and black set of 19" GT2 reps. black car, black leather looks gorgeous and goes great. just had £1200 major service, all coil packs changed and had lots of work done in recent past like all pads and discs. 3 owners last one for 4 years. no accident damage, hpi clear and no known dodgy history. owner upgraded to 997 Turbo. well sorted car needing small money on superficial cosmetic issues to get it to great condition. had upped the available budget to 25k but this one came along and represented great value for money. happy man.

eskillington said: After a bit of time and effort I've managed to get my hands on a £20 996TT. 54 plate black with 122k miles, tip, mechanically perfect, needs an undertray and a low tone horn. needs the front bumper resprayed and wheel refurb. came with original turbo twists and black set of 19" GT2 reps. black car, black leather looks gorgeous and goes great. just had £1200 major service, all coil packs changed and had lots of work done in recent past like all pads and discs. 3 owners last one for 4 years. no accident damage, hpi clear and no known dodgy history. owner upgraded to 997 Turbo. well sorted car needing small money on superficial cosmetic issues to get it to great condition. had upped the available budget to 25k but this one came along and represented great value for money. happy man. Photo's please.

How rude of me! don't like black wheels so will change these or refurb to silver... or go back to stock

cjb1 said: Well done, looks lovely. You mentioned something about a 997 upgrade??? Was it the headlight conversion, can't see in your photo's? no sorry the owner has upgraded to a 997 thus the sale

Well done, looks the dogs dubbries.

Is that the Revolution one OP? Kept looking at it myself, just to drool to be honest. I think the black wheels look the business as well, but each to their own. You do know it it's screaming out for a Gt2 rear wing don't you?

wolfracesonic said: Is that the Revolution one OP? Kept looking at it myself, just to drool to be honest. I think the black wheels look the business as well, but each to their own. You do know it it's screaming out for a Gt2 rear wing don't you? yes it was advertised by Revolution Porsche on behalf of the owner who was a customer and revolution have been looking after it for the past few years. great guys down there so helpful and Russ from Rev even mailed me today to ask how its going. not his car again but genuinely interested in how it was and he sent me the part numbers of the cover and low tone horn that i need to get for it. the wheels look decent in the flesh but i just feel black wheels lose too much detail and don't pop out so much. aero kit would be nice!!