Modifications to improve the GT4 Experience - Page 5 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

I’m now 1K miles into the ownership of my 718 GT4 PDK ( my first and only Porsche GT to date) and beginning to understand what’s it’s all about and what I want from my car. I never thought I would want to track mine but this is now a priority for me mainly to enjoy what I have, safely, while not exceeding my capabilities. European road trips with other like minded people is also on my to do list. Before all that I want to lightly modify my car to enhance my overall experience and enjoyment. Geo and exhaust are the first two items on my list. I am booked into Parr on the 16th to have the Cargraphic exhaust controller installed as a first step (I can’t afford to buy a new system or part system at the moment and am concerned about the warranty situation). I have read and seen a few videos and they seem to work reasonably well and maybe it’s all I need to do? Whilst there I will seek advice on the best bang for buck mods to consider. Any thoughts on the way forward would be appreciated by me and others thinking about such things. My plan is to keep this car as long as I’m able.

Exhaust: If you want more than the valve controller a silencer swap is all you need. Don't mess with the headers or over axle pipes (OAPs). The car will run just fine within its standard parameters. Mine has now done circa 6k miles after a silencer swap and all is good. Be prepared for some drone at low revs with the Cargraphic controller, this is what the valving fixes on the OEM silencer. Geo: Max camber everywhere should get you around -1.5 degrees all round which will be OK. Adding shims at the front should get you -2 deg on standard parts which is what I'd recommend, no issues with warranty. More than that level of camber will require parts front and rear, but the car feels even better in my experience. Your choice as to how far you want to go. Hope that helps

Getting the car properly aligned is foundational starting point. Personally I’d say that any exhaust mods are unnecessary from a track POV unless part of a power package. As you’ll be at higher revs on track… OEM PSE operation will have the valves fully open anyway… so no really benefit to the valve controller. On road the valves controller will give you manual control of having the valves open at low RPM so may give you some added noise/aural pleasure in those ranges. It once you’ve had the car aligned… key thing to do it just to get out on track, get seat time and get instruction. It’s cliché, but it’s true. The cars are very capable out of the box and more than enough to get started with. Once your running at a decent pace and broaching excessive consumable wear, or approaching the limits of handling, other thing can be done. Look forward to reading your journey…

JCR Porsche probably have a few toys out for them by now.

Twinfan said: Exhaust: If you want more than the valve controller a silencer swap is all you need. Don't mess with the headers or over axle pipes (OAPs). The car will run just fine within its standard parameters. Mine has now done circa 6k miles after a silencer swap and all is good. Be prepared for some drone at low revs with the Cargraphic controller, this is what the valving fixes on the OEM silencer. Geo: Max camber everywhere should get you around -1.5 degrees all round which will be OK. Adding shims at the front should get you -2 deg on standard parts which is what I'd recommend, no issues with warranty. More than that level of camber will require parts front and rear, but the car feels even better in my experience. Your choice as to how far you want to go. Hope that helps Re the exhaust. Thought I’d try the controller as a starting point as they have had some positive reviews and would be easy to sell on if necessary. Not worried about the sound whilst on track as she is going to spend the vast majority of her time with me on the road. If I experience droning then I can simply shut the valves with the remote (as I understand it). Any exhaust mods would only be the back box as power gains are of little interest to me as my skill levels are far exceeded by a standard cars capabilities. Re the max camber. Thanks for the advice. I will speak with Parr about this and decide if it’s worth the effort as mostly road use.

TDT said: Getting the car properly aligned is foundational starting point. Personally I’d say that any exhaust mods are unnecessary from a track POV unless part of a power package. As you’ll be at higher revs on track… OEM PSE operation will have the valves fully open anyway… so no really benefit to the valve controller. On road the valves controller will give you manual control of having the valves open at low RPM so may give you some added noise/aural pleasure in those ranges. It once you’ve had the car aligned… key thing to do it just to get out on track, get seat time and get instruction. It’s cliché, but it’s true. The cars are very capable out of the box and more than enough to get started with. Once your running at a decent pace and broaching excessive consumable wear, or approaching the limits of handling, other thing can be done. Look forward to reading your journey… Thanks, very helpful.

Budweiser said: Re the exhaust. Thought I’d try the controller as a starting point as they have had some positive reviews and would be easy to sell on if necessary. Not worried about the sound whilst on track as she is going to spend the vast majority of her time with me on the road. If I experience droning then I can simply shut the valves with the remote (as I understand it). Any exhaust mods would only be the back box as power gains are of little interest to me as my skill levels are far exceeded by a standard cars capabilities. Re the max camber. Thanks for the advice. I will speak with Parr about this and decide if it’s worth the effort as mostly road use. No worries. I personally wouldn't bother with the valve controller as I don't like the tone of the standard exhaust note at lower revs with the valves open, I'd spend the money on alignment and shims for the front instead. You, or a garage, could always unplug the vacuum lines to test it to see what you think before spending £100s on the valve controller and ripping your interior to pieces to get at the engine bay to fit it The camber mods are worth it even for road use, you'll get more even tyre wear and I felt the car gained more sure-footedness.

TDT said: Getting the car properly aligned is foundational starting point. Personally I’d say that any exhaust mods are unnecessary from a track POV unless part of a power package. As you’ll be at higher revs on track… OEM PSE operation will have the valves fully open anyway… so no really benefit to the valve controller. On road the valves controller will give you manual control of having the valves open at low RPM so may give you some added noise/aural pleasure in those ranges. It once you’ve had the car aligned… key thing to do it just to get out on track, get seat time and get instruction. It’s cliché, but it’s true. The cars are very capable out of the box and more than enough to get started with. Once your running at a decent pace and broaching excessive consumable wear, or approaching the limits of handling, other thing can be done. Look forward to reading your journey… +1 ... On the 981 the first modification was to the geometry due to very high front tyre shoulder wear. The limit of negative camber was limited by the need to keep toe limits in check, which then required some suspension modifications ... Noise levels were sometimes on the limit for track work, so quieter is better ... Brakes become a significant consumable ... and can be upgraded A second set of wheels for PS4S wet and cold weather tyres was useful ... Dampers can be upgraded ... Power can be upgraded ... And tuition helps everywhere

Twinfan said: No worries. I personally wouldn't bother with the valve controller as I don't like the tone of the standard exhaust note at lower revs with the valves open, I'd spend the money on alignment and shims for the front instead. You, or a garage, could always unplug the vacuum lines to test it to see what you think before spending £100s on the valve controller and ripping your interior to pieces to get at the engine bay to fit it The camber mods are worth it even for road use, you'll get more even tyre wear and I felt the car gained more sure-footedness. What exhaust did you fit on your car?

Budweiser said: What exhaust did you fit on your car? Ninemeister silencer, in inconel.

What are the mods to the front end to get more negative camber please?

andygo said: What are the mods to the front end to get more negative camber please? Shims alone will get you to -2 degrees. After that, you'll need to change either the strut top mounts or the lower control arms

Congrats on reaching 1000miles. Now you can really open her up! I collected my PDK GT4 in August and have now reached 5,000 miles. I also plan some European road trips next year and some track time to get the most out of the car. First on my list is the geometry and I’ve got the car booked into JZM Porsche for their fast road alignment and shims next month. I’m hoping this will make the front end a little more responsive. Next up for me will be the exhaust and I’m planning to go JCR unsilenced back box. I’ve not yet witnessed an exhaust that sounds as good as the JCR one! After that we shall see. I’m considering a couple of interior retrofits and replacing some of the underside diffuser plastics (they’ve been scraped!!) Let us know what you decide/how you get on

mattkidd said: Congrats on reaching 1000miles. Now you can really open her up! I collected my PDK GT4 in August and have now reached 5,000 miles. I also plan some European road trips next year and some track time to get the most out of the car. First on my list is the geometry and I’ve got the car booked into JZM Porsche for their fast road alignment and shims next month. I’m hoping this will make the front end a little more responsive. Next up for me will be the exhaust and I’m planning to go JCR unsilenced back box. I’ve not yet witnessed an exhaust that sounds as good as the JCR one! After that we shall see. I’m considering a couple of interior retrofits and replacing some of the underside diffuser plastics (they’ve been scraped!!) Let us know what you decide/how you get on Matt. Sounds like we embarking on a similar journey. I’m going to give Parr a ring to see what they suggest re the fast road alinement and front shims as that seems a no brainier. Please feel free to add to the thread with your progress if you wish and let us know how you get on at JZM.

mattkidd said: Congrats on reaching 1000miles. Now you can really open her up! I collected my PDK GT4 in August and have now reached 5,000 miles. I also plan some European road trips next year and some track time to get the most out of the car. First on my list is the geometry and I’ve got the car booked into JZM Porsche for their fast road alignment and shims next month. I’m hoping this will make the front end a little more responsive. Next up for me will be the exhaust and I’m planning to go JCR unsilenced back box. I’ve not yet witnessed an exhaust that sounds as good as the JCR one! After that we shall see. I’m considering a couple of interior retrofits and replacing some of the underside diffuser plastics (they’ve been scraped!!) Let us know what you decide/how you get on Matt, have you run these mods past your solicitor friend !!!! 😉

Couple of thoughts around noise and exhausts. The noise will improve with mileage and use. Track day limits - nothing worse than turning up for a track day only to fail the noise test and be on your way back home before the briefing.

True, but... Volume may increase but quality of tone will not. Which is why I went for a replacement x-pipe silencer. My car showed 90dB in the static tests at Oulton, the same as an OEM silenced car. OPFs restrict a lot of the sound in the 718 4.0 cars.

Anyone considered the cargraphic OPF replacements? Really intrigued if anyone has undertaken a baseline dyno pre and post with this product. They quote increase in power and enhancements to sound.

mattkidd said: Congrats on reaching 1000miles. Now you can really open her up! I collected my PDK GT4 in August and have now reached 5,000 miles. I also plan some European road trips next year and some track time to get the most out of the car. First on my list is the geometry and I’ve got the car booked into JZM Porsche for their fast road alignment and shims next month. I’m hoping this will make the front end a little more responsive. Next up for me will be the exhaust and I’m planning to go JCR unsilenced back box. I’ve not yet witnessed an exhaust that sounds as good as the JCR one! After that we shall see. I’m considering a couple of interior retrofits and replacing some of the underside diffuser plastics (they’ve been scraped!!) Let us know what you decide/how you get on My GT4 sounded ace with it on. More so outside than inside I thought

Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value?

Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value?

No, not good value in my opinion. It depends what settings they're trying to dial in, but without shims you'll only get -1.5 deg of camber up front. The same can be obtained in the rear with a decent amount of toe-in that doesn't require the arms so you're being charged for parts you don't need. If you're after a starting point with minimal cost, tell them you want maximum camber all round matched side to side and front to rear with zero toe up front and as much as they can get in the rear. From memory, on my car this was -1.5 deg all round and 20 minutes of total toe (10 minutes each side) in the rear. It shouldn't cost more than 1.5hrs labour.

Budweiser said: Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value? Let’s break it down… Standard geo might cost between £200 - 600 depending on where you go, and if you are corner weighting, as some class that’s a extra. Toe link pair can range from probably £350-750… again depending on which brand… do you know which they are recommending? Then there is the time to fit… they will charge an hour min for the privilege even though it part of the whole job. And then there’ll be some charge for the shims… which they will use. The quoted total price assuming part and labour, as I’ve outlined, might be a bit on the higher side, but it is not out of the realm of reality…. but it really depends on the reputability of who is doing the work and what exactly they are intending to give you.

Budweiser said: I’m now 1K miles into the ownership of my 718 GT4 PDK ( my first and only Porsche GT to date) and beginning to understand what’s it’s all about and what I want from my car. I never thought I would want to track mine but this is now a priority for me mainly to enjoy what I have, safely, while not exceeding my capabilities. European road trips with other like minded people is also on my to do list. Before all that I want to lightly modify my car to enhance my overall experience and enjoyment. Geo and exhaust are the first two items on my list. I am booked into Parr on the 16th to have the Cargraphic exhaust controller installed as a first step (I can’t afford to buy a new system or part system at the moment and am concerned about the warranty situation). I have read and seen a few videos and they seem to work reasonably well and maybe it’s all I need to do? Whilst there I will seek advice on the best bang for buck mods to consider. Any thoughts on the way forward would be appreciated by me and others thinking about such things. My plan is to keep this car as long as I’m able. Surely it would be wise to take it on a track day first to see if you enjoy that and then take it from there. I think you are coming at this topsy-turvy

Ensuring that the car is actually straight works wonders on the road also.

TDT said: Ensuring that the car is actually straight works wonders on the road also. First thing I do after several hundred miles once everything has settled.

TDT said: Budweiser said: Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value? Let’s break it down… Standard geo might cost between £200 - 600 depending on where you go, and if you are corner weighting, as some class that’s a extra. Toe link pair can range from probably £350-750… again depending on which brand… do you know which they are recommending? Then there is the time to fit… they will charge an hour min for the privilege even though it part of the whole job. And then there’ll be some charge for the shims… which they will use. The quoted total price assuming part and labour, as I’ve outlined, might be a bit on the higher side, but it is not out of the realm of reality…. but it really depends on the reputability of who is doing the work and what exactly they are intending to give you. [/quote This is what I was advised to do and the costs in addition to the ‘Fast Road’ setup which would not require the use of shims. ‘Having looked into this further with cars we have already done it’s been decided that you will also really need the rear toe arm upgrade too. The issue is we don’t need shims for the front camber adjustment on a fast road as the camber is not extreme enough to need them. The problem comes with the rear as we always like to run more toe adjustment for better turn in. The standard car there is not enough adjustment so adjustable toe link arms are needed. This will also give you greater flexibility with set up in the future if you did want to make the set up more focused. Based on this the adjustable toes arms are an extra ££ fitted and we would need the car for the day to fit these and do the setup’

Twinfan said: From memory, on my car this was -1.5 deg all round and 20 minutes of total toe (10 minutes each side) in the rear. I've just checked my geo printout and this is correct. With no parts my car got -1.5 deg camber all round and 20 minutes of total toe (10 minutes each side) in the rear. Porsche's specs have a maximum of 12 minutes rear toe per side (24 minutes total toe). I don't understand why they're saying you need rear toe links as you can get a reasonable setup without them. Anything more extreme than that you'd usually you'd want more negative camber in the front than the rear, hence me saying you'd want shims up front, so unless they're proposing the opposite (for which you'd need shims for the rear instead) I really don't get what they're trying to do!

Budweiser said: TDT said: Budweiser said: Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value? Let’s break it down… Standard geo might cost between £200 - 600 depending on where you go, and if you are corner weighting, as some class that’s a extra. Toe link pair can range from probably £350-750… again depending on which brand… do you know which they are recommending? Then there is the time to fit… they will charge an hour min for the privilege even though it part of the whole job. And then there’ll be some charge for the shims… which they will use. The quoted total price assuming part and labour, as I’ve outlined, might be a bit on the higher side, but it is not out of the realm of reality…. but it really depends on the reputability of who is doing the work and what exactly they are intending to give you. This is what I was advised to do and the costs in addition to the ‘Fast Road’ setup which would not require the use of shims. ‘Having looked into this further with cars we have already done it’s been decided that you will also really need the rear toe arm upgrade too. The issue is we don’t need shims for the front camber adjustment on a fast road as the camber is not extreme enough to need them. The problem comes with the rear as we always like to run more toe adjustment for better turn in. The standard car there is not enough adjustment so adjustable toe link arms are needed. This will also give you greater flexibility with set up in the future if you did want to make the set up more focused. Based on this the adjustable toes arms are an extra ££ fitted and we would need the car for the day to fit these and do the setup’ Ok understood. So, this might be a matter of preference rather than right or wrong. As well as cornering dynamics, getting the appropriate amount of static toe-in on the rear will make the car noticeably more stable in high loads conditions…. E.g. heavy braking, where weight transfers forward and the rear gets light, potential resulting in some movement or waggle. Reality is you probably won’t see these type of extreme behaviour on the road, but even here, there will be a improvement in rear end stability over fast bumps. With the correct type of alignment the car is really calmed down and becomes a very direct tool with a lot of grip. As your shop also says, having them on also gives adjustability options for the future also… and it’s based upon their experience of these cars and feedback from other customers. But I would really expect that if they are going beyond the range of eccentric bolt adjustment for toe-in on the rear, that would mean they are going beyond OEM camber on the front… or right up to the limit… and typically that means at least a little bit of shim. The set up on rear should be dictated by what they are doing on the front in any case. My personal view, is that the rear toe link/arms are required anyway… and that Porsche should have done this from the factory. They better have this on the RS!!! Edited by TDT on Friday 19th November 18:51

You can get to 2.5F/2.0R with shims only and keep the rear toe in - this is the absolute max that is safe in terms of install. When you go above those, you are unable to get the rear toe in, so even 2.6F/2.1R will mean you need the rear toe steer kit. There are many solutions for that but the TPC Racing one is better than on the market as they have a design that minimises toe deviation during lateral loads compared to other, especially in conjunction with DSC module to replace the stock PASM. Once you go above 2.6F/2.1R you need adjustable front arms, because you are out of the safety zone with the number of shims would be needed to say run 3.0F/2.5R. Certainly having the adjustable rear toe steer makes sense but it is not required until you hit 2.6F/2.1R

Fortunately I’m in no rush but I obviously don’t need to track the car to know it would benefit from a professional geo setup. However it could be a benefit to understand my current limitations and what degree of setup would be most suitable for me. I appreciate all the replies received to date.

Anyone fitted the DSC sport controller? Is it considered a worth while upgrade?

I think the answer is "it depends". Are you after a very specific suspension setup using PASM and you're prepared to play with the controller's mapping to get what you want? Then probably yes. Are you after a plug and play unit that will give you a magic bullet to awesomeness? Then probably not. If you have a 718 GT4 I'd be interested to know what you don't like about the OEM PASM system. I find the standard and sport settings to be very, very good indeed.

Yep I did run it for a short while on my 981. I wanted greater body control under load on track, (more compliant ride was a secondary/non-important benefit to me) but I felt like the DSC mappings and algorithms took some of the GT4 organic feeling away. But as a product it does work, and a lot of people like it…. overall feels best in sport mode for road and track…. So makes normal mode redundant. To be fair I probably didn't give it enough time before deciding to go the tried and tested passive route. Had i stuck with it i think i may have gone with stiffer springs for the front also, but still in the range of the OEM dampers - and that could have been a good setup - I know some people run that. The other concern in the back of my mind was because of the semi-active feature - i became unsure of what the car might do at the limit - adjusting damper stiffness individually.... again Porsche calibration is class leading really and their implementation has no holes. Edited by TDT on Friday 3rd December 11:05

Recommendation for String Theory for set up, they work closely with JCR and have settings depending on what you're looking for. Ben is a pretty handy driver too with plenty of experience. I've never seen someone take so much care on setting the Geo on a car and always go there now. I haven't tried all the others though, sure plenty do the same. Just in case you wanted another company to consider

robj4 said: Recommendation for String Theory for set up, they work closely with JCR and have settings depending on what you're looking for. Ben is a pretty handy driver too with plenty of experience. I've never seen someone take so much care on setting the Geo on a car and always go there now. I haven't tried all the others though, sure plenty do the same. Just in case you wanted another company to consider Yep, String Theory are good. Ben revised the setup for my car earlier in the year. Very knowledgeable and thorough, I picked up some valuable nuggets from him for my setup and preferences and how the kinematics work. Edited by TDT on Friday 3rd December 11:15

I’m booked in with Ben on the 13/01/22 for the geo setup which I’m really looking forward to. A pal of mine suggested it was a waste of money as Porsche spend vast amounts on R&D (true) so why change their setup? Twinfan: Re the DSC module. I’m really just trying to educate myself on the various ways I can make my car better for me. Money isn’t the main concern more how I intend to use the car which is mainly road, the odd track day with tuition thrown in. I’m not to interested in more power so a professional setting up of the car ‘for me’ might be all I need. I am really pleased with the exhaust controller but no doubt will be fitting a new rear silencer at some stage. This is my first and probably last GT car and I can’t express how thrilled I am with it.

robj4 said: Recommendation for String Theory for set up, they work closely with JCR and have settings depending on what you're looking for. Ben is a pretty handy driver too with plenty of experience. I've never seen someone take so much care on setting the Geo on a car and always go there now. I haven't tried all the others though, sure plenty do the same. Just in case you wanted another company to consider Transformed my car - i enjoy both road driving and track days a lot more since i met him!

Budweiser said: I’m booked in with Ben on the 13/01/22 for the geo setup which I’m really looking forward to. A pal of mine suggested it was a waste of money as Porsche spend vast amounts on R&D (true) so why change their setup? Twinfan: Re the DSC module. I’m really just trying to educate myself on the various ways I can make my car better for me. Money isn’t the main concern more how I intend to use the car which is mainly road, the odd track day with tuition thrown in. I’m not to interested in more power so a professional setting up of the car ‘for me’ might be all I need. I am really pleased with the exhaust controller but no doubt will be fitting a new rear silencer at some stage. This is my first and probably last GT car and I can’t express how thrilled I am with it. Cool If it's mainly road use and you're happy with the car I wouldn't bother with the DSC controller, but obviously the choice is yours!

Budweiser said: A pal of mine suggested it was a waste of money as Porsche spend vast amounts on R&D (true) so why change their setup? you will find out for yourself. (after a few years of a variety of experiences with Geo set ups, my own conclusion is that it's easy to get the car aligned in theory, but only very few people take the time to get things perfect. on some chassis is makes a great difference being "in range" or "perfect". then settings are to taste)

The problem with DSC is down to the fact that the configuration that comes as stock is set up for better roads than we have in the UK. To give some understand there is what is a called a performance map and a comfort map. The performance map is perfect regardless of what car you have - there is zero reason to change that under any circumstances. Examples include when braking in a straight line the front dampers are firmed up to stop nose dive, on a right hand bend the o/s/f is softened etc. If you drove the car in the performance map all the time it is considerably better than stock PASM even on the limit. The issue is when does the performance map get triggered. This is down to the comfort map. At what point does the car change out of the comfort map. One of the key selling points of DSC is to offer a better ride on UK roads so that for example in a 997 you can actually drive in sport mode whilst keeping your teeth in. The parameters for the triggers from comfort to performance map in the stock config file are imo too slow for our UK roads and this is where some customers have found a level of uncertainty. Since Tractive came along, and we have been custom tuning the DSC to take full benefit of the extended dampening available, we have been custom tuning the DSC. As a result now when we sell a unit, we always amended the stock config file to improve the switching from comfort to performance map. A simple example is say take a 991.2 Carrera T - it has softer springs than say a 991.2 Carrera GTS - if you use the same DSC stock config file it will act differently when you hit a bump or dip in the road. The DSC is a great product - we have sold over 200 units in the last couple of years, but it needs to be set up correctly.

Budweiser said: Having enquired about a fast road geo set up and if shims would be required I was told shims wouldn’t be required but I would need the rear toe arm upgrade?? I know others have had this set up on their cars and would like your view’s on this. The front setup cost is relatively inexpensive but with the toe arm upgrade the total cost is around £1K. Good value? As others have said, track time and instruction, even on a completely standard setup, will most likely be the best value you will achieve. It's all about feel, and you need to find a baseline where you will feel the difference. From my limited perspective (981 GT4 with one track day under its belt, but I've probably worked at a couple of hundred previous where someone else has been "the nut behind the wheel") it's mostly about getting comfortable with being on the track, and then making changes once you have figured out how to get the car to deal with lateral loads, and how hard you can brake and accelerate in combination with steering loads. For my own first GT4 track day, I worked mostly on managing tyre temperatures and pressures. I'll hopefully get another 2 or 3 out of the current set of Cup 2 tyres before I look seriously at wear patterns, but it was ridiculously hot, so tyre behaviour was compromised by "pick up" of all sorts of rubber. For me the basic assumption is that the car is a good track day car (and the 718 GT4s I met had the edge in most ways), so I need to figure out how to pedal it "as it is" as a first priority. Changes to damping, camber and toe all make a difference, but you need to experience a baseline to appreciate that difference. Keep the changes close enough together so you can remember how it changes the feel on track. Remember that it's mostly about tyres, and keeping them fit for the job. For perspective, I was a back of the grid "no hoper" kart racer about 9 years ago when all this was first explained to me (as a motorsport engineer of about 20 years standing, and explained by a talented lad in his mid 20s at the time). Since then I have won a championship, and was runner up for a third time this year. Rear toe and camber aren't adjustment that any kart racer can make, front end, hell yes, but tyre pressure and temperature management is the key to a good day rather than a bad one. Most of that is in adapting driving style to the vehicle rather than the other way around. Don't overthink it, get some track miles under your belt. You'll enjoy it! Liam

No such thing as a fast road setup - car is already too fast for the road, you won’t notice any difference whatsoever on the road with added camber except when it tramlines more easily, because at no point will you ever be cornering at the limit of the tyre Go and pound a track. If your tyres are heavily worn on the shoulder, stick on more camber or shim it, then go again If you’re posting about it, then it’s a guarantee that the car / setup won’t be the limiting factor

LiamH66. Thanks for you reply Dashobbit. You raise some interesting points. Fast road setup is a term used by those I have approached for quotes on my geo setup. That aside if we were to say ‘taking the car to a specialist to tune the geo to suit my style of driving and intended use of the car’ would that be more accurate? I am a total novice when it comes to this sort of thing but refining your geo is a good thing is it not? I appreciate I might not need such an aggressive setup, what do you think? Thanks.

I would delay having the geo altered until the first set of tyres were well worn. Examining the type of wear will give a very accurate indication on what geo settings need to be employed if any rather than changing the geo for the sake of changing the geo. Otherwise it just becomes a guessing game as we all have different driving styles.

Fundamentally you want the car to actually be straight. Not just within ranges…. As the two can are not necessarily corresponding. After that it’s preference/taste and tyre wear. There isn’t one prescriptive set of numbers that is the standard for ‘fast road’ or ‘full track’ but people do use descriptive terms to indicate how aggressive the set up is. Fast Road - ‘generally’ mild level of camber and toe adjustments to give a feeling of more response, agility and/or stability. Track day or Full track - ‘generally’ aggressive level of camber for managing tyre wear. And then within the general terms there will be specific type of set up for particular scenarios… e.g Nurburgring vs GP circuit.

Thank you both for the replies above. I’ll have another chat with String Theory and see how they respond..

Budweiser said: Thank you both for the replies above. I’ll have another chat with String Theory and see how they respond.. Ben’s a good guy.

Very nice….

TDT said: Fundamentally you want the car to actually be straight. Not just within ranges…. As the two can are not necessarily corresponding. After that it’s preference/taste and tyre wear. There isn’t one prescriptive set of numbers that is the standard for ‘fast road’ or ‘full track’ but people do use descriptive terms to indicate how aggressive the set up is. Fast Road - ‘generally’ mild level of camber and toe adjustments to give a feeling of more response, agility and/or stability. Track day or Full track - ‘generally’ aggressive level of camber for managing tyre wear. And then within the general terms there will be specific type of set up for particular scenarios… e.g Nurburgring vs GP circuit. @Budweiser, this! Personally, I'd start with making sure they are all pointing in the right direction, and somewhere near specification for camber. For a lot of people doing track days, making the car feel really sporty to drive is important. This is often accompanied by a load of outside tyre shoulder wear. Car manufacturer trends for very neutral steering in a straight line and on the brakes mean that if a lot of steering lock is applied in corners, especially with a right foot applied early on the throttle, the outside of the tyre takes a lot of load. Race driving instructors will generally encourage in the direction of minimising steering input on corner entry, and being patient before getting on the throttle too hard. Increasing negative camber on the front wheels helps with this, especially in terms of tyre wear, but can mask issues with getting the best out of the car through driving technique. I hadn't realised how bad all this was getting (a few years away from race cars and track days, concentrating on karting, and mainly earning a living) until I helped a friend out doing his first track day at Silverstone in a Merc AMG GT-R this summer. He had another good friend of mine (ex-British Championship F3 driver and qualified instructor) in the passenger seat, but managed to torture the left front tyre, and to torture it to extremes I was genuinely surprised by. On my drive home it occurred to me that when a good proportion of 585 bhp is applied to scrubbing a single tyre in every corner, it's going to get pretty hot, and pretty quickly. The fuel bill for the day made me think twice about my own upcoming track day, but my GT4 used 60% less than the Merc did for a similar time on track later in the summer. OK, it's less than 400 bhp, and Anglesey is pretty slow compared to Silverstone, but less than half the fuel? So maybe £150 of the AMG fuel bill went on £200 of unnecessary tyre abuse. I'd consider maybe 0.5-1.0 degrees more camber on the front, but mostly make sure the toe and offsets are something like even and within specification, and find someone that can teach you the joy of making a car dance to your tune. Honestly, you'll love it. Liam

Budweiser said: LiamH66. Thanks for you reply Dashobbit. You raise some interesting points. Fast road setup is a term used by those I have approached for quotes on my geo setup. That aside if we were to say ‘taking the car to a specialist to tune the geo to suit my style of driving and intended use of the car’ would that be more accurate? I am a total novice when it comes to this sort of thing but refining your geo is a good thing is it not? I appreciate I might not need such an aggressive setup, what do you think? Thanks. There is no point or value in you changing the geo unless: 1. The steering wheel isn’t centred 2. The car pulls to one side Both are highly unlikely I mean none of this against you as an individual, but itll likely come across terse as I’m on my phone 1. The fact you’re asking suggests you’re a novice to track days. Therefore until you know the track and build up speed, you may not even wear the shoulder As a result, adding more geo makes the car more “pointy” and gives you less chance to learn the limit of the car when it’s safer You may go the other way and wear the inside of the tyre if you’re not rolling on to the shoulder Therefore - leave it alone 2. When you drive, you’ll find out if you need more camber because of the wear At the ring, I did a few days. My shoulder is worn a lot more heavily, and particularly on the left hand side (makes sense as the ring is a clockwise circuit) As I only do days at the ring, I’ll adjust the camber - but no matter what anyone said beforehand, I wasn’t going to adjust it because I needed to see for myself that my speed, my driving style etc would mean I needed more camber I don’t really want to modify the car so will see what it’s setup with now, then either go to the maximum it can as standard and run it again… or if it’s at the maximum, I’ll have to think about other options 3. Adding more camber is not “fun”. As above, it makes the car more “pointy”. I will pick up tramlines and it’ll be more twitchy on the road. It’s not great in the wet It also means re-learning the inputs next time I’m out and how the car responds front and rear It’s fine for anyone that trailers a car to and from a track. I don’t - I drive it there and back, so a 6hr journey on more aggressive camber, potentially in heavy rain (happens at least once a year!) won’t be that enjoyable My advice is to drive the car, find out what you think, then alter to suit your personal circumstances but only once you’ve found out what they are The setup depends on the track, the person, and the willingness to compromise when off the track

“I mean none of this against you as an individual, but itll likely come across terse as I’m on my phone” I have no problem with yours or anyones comments as I believe them to be well intention and trying to help me. I’m waiting for ST to reply to my last email then I’ll decide what I’m going to do.

It's also worth getting a driver coach sitting in the seat beside you for short time just to give you a little feedback. To get the best from the car the driver inputs should be gentle and progressive ... it is very easy to provoke excessive tyre wear ... as it's also very easy to make a "slow" lap feel fast

Well thanks to everyone who has contributed to date. I have decided to cancel my visit to String Theory, for now, and concentrate on initially attending a couple of TDs to observe and then having a go myself if comfortable. I will probably stick to PCGB events and seek some tuition. I have tried a few TDs in the long distant passed but that was in a car that cost next to nothing.

Hello, reading this with interest. I have owned 2 x 981 GT4 Caymans and been down the road of the Geo Adjustment including the Manthey front suspension arms. I also had the RPM crown wheel and pinion mod installed on my second GT4. The 1st car I had remained totally stock and when I took it to Spa I wore the front tyres out quite badly. Gradually I built up my pace, or so I thought. I sold the 1st car as work meant I couldn't use it much at the time. The second car I brought had the Manthey suspension kit installed when I brought the car from a friend who is a very quick trackday driver at the time, now doing very well with his racing. Turns out that I wore the tyres out at Spa, really because I was understeering on the power through lots of the corners. I took some tuition from David Pittard and everything changed, very very quickly. He taught me what I was doing wrong which was a lot, and what I was doing right which at the time wasn't much. Gradually over time I carried more speed into corners, broke later but harder and gained confidence as the car started to move around under power or braking. I'd suggest you invest in some tuition, then mod the car, because the car is so capable to begin with. Then do the mods if you feel you need them as your speed comes up. Soon after a few full days with David Pittard I brought a race car, because after about 3 years of running caymans on track the consumables started to get quite expensive. I also felt I'd completed my journey with the Cayman. The race car runs slicks and aero and is incredible. Those two Caymans, they were the right car for me to learn in. Now I have 991.2 GT3 along side the race car and I have had some adjustable top mounts installed to allow more camber, because as a result of all of the above I know I like the car set up that way and I choose to compromise my road setup in favor of more direct on track. Ultimately do what you want, but I thought I knew what I was doing, then I asked a pro to help me. Guess what ? turns out the reason they are Pro's is cos they are really really good at it. You do need to find the right match for you though. Good luck, Im interested to hear how your journey with the car develops. Edited by mofflavfx on Monday 13th December 12:38

4.5L engine from DeMan Motorsport in New York tends to liven up the GT4/Spyder experience quite a bit

The nice thing about modifying a car is that the car is modified in stages that are directed by the learning experience. I have found it to be a thoroughly enjoyable journey ... and on the subject of consumables costs, minimising these was always a component of my deciding what to modify next, and how. First, tyres. Second, brakes. Third, more tuition ...

Thinking of replacing my Cup 2 tyres for the more road focused Pirelli P Zeros and save the Cups for a few track days??

Budweiser said: Thinking of replacing my Cup 2 tyres for the more road focused Pirelli P Zeros and save the Cups for a few track days?? Put on Michelin MP4Ss instead and avoid the Pirellis

Budweiser said: Thinking of replacing my Cup 2 tyres for the more road focused Pirelli P Zeros and save the Cups for a few track days?? Less thinking, more (track) driving.

julian987R said: Surely it would be wise to take it on a track day first to see if you enjoy that and then take it from there. I think you are coming at this topsy-turvy This. Take your car onto a track first, do you can experience it under these conditions. Only then will you have an idea of what mods would suit your driving, and set a baseline to judge future improvements. Spend initial money on driver coaching.

Taffy66 said: Put on Michelin MP4Ss instead and avoid the Pirellis I mentioned the Pirelli’s as they are standard use on the new Turbo S. Why Avoid?

mofflavfx said: Hello, reading this with interest. I have owned 2 x 981 GT4 Caymans and been down the road of the Geo Adjustment including the Manthey front suspension arms. I also had the RPM crown wheel and pinion mod installed on my second GT4. The 1st car I had remained totally stock and when I took it to Spa I wore the front tyres out quite badly. Gradually I built up my pace, or so I thought. I sold the 1st car as work meant I couldn't use it much at the time. The second car I brought had the Manthey suspension kit installed when I brought the car from a friend who is a very quick trackday driver at the time, now doing very well with his racing. Turns out that I wore the tyres out at Spa, really because I was understeering on the power through lots of the corners. I took some tuition from David Pittard and everything changed, very very quickly. He taught me what I was doing wrong which was a lot, and what I was doing right which at the time wasn't much. Gradually over time I carried more speed into corners, broke later but harder and gained confidence as the car started to move around under power or braking. I'd suggest you invest in some tuition, then mod the car, because the car is so capable to begin with. Then do the mods if you feel you need them as your speed comes up. Soon after a few full days with David Pittard I brought a race car, because after about 3 years of running caymans on track the consumables started to get quite expensive. I also felt I'd completed my journey with the Cayman. The race car runs slicks and aero and is incredible. Those two Caymans, they were the right car for me to learn in. Now I have 991.2 GT3 along side the race car and I have had some adjustable top mounts installed to allow more camber, because as a result of all of the above I know I like the car set up that way and I choose to compromise my road setup in favor of more direct on track. Ultimately do what you want, but I thought I knew what I was doing, then I asked a pro to help me. Guess what ? turns out the reason they are Pro's is cos they are really really good at it. You do need to find the right match for you though. Good luck, Im interested to hear how your journey with the car develops. Edited by mofflavfx on Monday 13th December 12:38 This is the best post on this thread as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience in this journey I have questions… 1. Where was the tuition with David? He’s an absolute beast of a driver, I love watching his VLN vids 2. You went Cayman —> race car… what race car? GT4 Clubsport or something else? 3. I hate the rear engine setup in the GT3s - how have you found adapting the driving style to suit? Ie now you’ve adapted, do you think it’s more rewarding / safer / more fun? Now some selfish questions … 4. Was there a significant difference between the MR stock adjustment and the MR suspension kit (assuming the KWs)? I am toying with the idea of just doing the full kit but I don’t know whether it’s night and day difference or not. I will almost exclusively drive the GT4 at the ring 5. What kind of pace are you doing at the ring or Spa? Just trying to get a feel for where you were when you were in the GT4 and how that compares to where I am

dashobbit said: This is the best post on this thread as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience in this journey I have questions… 1. Where was the tuition with David? He’s an absolute beast of a driver, I love watching his VLN vids 2. You went Cayman —> race car… what race car? GT4 Clubsport or something else? 3. I hate the rear engine setup in the GT3s - how have you found adapting the driving style to suit? Ie now you’ve adapted, do you think it’s more rewarding / safer / more fun? Now some selfish questions … 4. Was there a significant difference between the MR stock adjustment and the MR suspension kit (assuming the KWs)? I am toying with the idea of just doing the full kit but I don’t know whether it’s night and day difference or not. I will almost exclusively drive the GT4 at the ring 5. What kind of pace are you doing at the ring or Spa? Just trying to get a feel for where you were when you were in the GT4 and how that compares to where I am Not sure how often J frequents this parish so I’ll answer for him for the moment for the points I know… 2 - Which race car?… Ginetta G55 4 - He had the MR kit for OEM suspension… so the lower arm Package, not the KW/MR damper/spring package. I’ve had this on my car since late 2018 and it allows for much wider range of adjustment over the stock hardware, which will be limited to around -2.2 on the front with the max number of shims. Large LCA inners- 991.1 RS Longer tension arm- 991.1 RS Brake ducting - 991.1 RS Longer tie rods Adjustable Rear toe arms The LCA inner from the MR kit are larger so you are already running more neg camber before adding shims. OEM rear toe links are fixed and therefore you only have limited toe adjustment via the eccentric bolt. The adjustable toe link allow much wider range of adjustment than the eccentric bolt, which can easily slip anyway. A track day focussed alignment on the MR arm package will have you somewhere around into the neg 3° range on the front and neg 2° range on the rear as a baseline. May 2020 I replaced PASM with KW Clubsport 3-way as per 981 MR kit. Edited by TDT on Sunday 19th December 14:20

dashobbit said: This is the best post on this thread as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience in this journey - Very kind but its just how things unfolded. I have questions… 1. Where was the tuition with David? He’s an absolute beast of a driver, I love watching his VLN vids - I first met David at Spa early 2020 at an RMA two day event. It was June I think and there were not many people there. David had contacted me via another forum as he knew a few of us were heading over. I wobbled around on my own for the first morning and thought I was doing pretty well. I was having fun. Anyway after an hour with David I was 5 seconds a lap quicker. That was after one hour ! I couldn't believe it - yeah he is a beast of a driver but he's also an incredible instructor. Lets face it, who likes to be told they are doing it wrong ? He has a great way about him and he encourages awareness I would say is the best way of describing it. Anyway - the next day I spent the day trying to put into practice what he had taught me and I managed to go a bit quicker still. The next time, I think was at Zandvoort and he came and we did a full day. Same thing - 5 seconds quicker that the last time I was there without instruction. Was a great day. But the rear shocks needed replacing on the GT4 after that day with David. At this point, I thought KW's were the way to go same as TDT's but when I looked at the cost I started thinking about how much there was left in the car and perhaps long term it was a better idea to look for a car more suited to the track...... I knew of a Ginetta G55 that was for sale that David had coached the owner / driver of so I called and asked David if it was a good car. He said it was and it would be great next step so I brought the car and sold the Cayman. We had two shake down's at Silverstone first with me just on my own trying to get the measure of slicks and some aero and then a day with David which was a BRDC day so low numbers but some quite quick cars and drivers. The Ginetta is mega, very different to the GT4 but thats probably a different thread. Then we did two full days in September at Spa in the Ginetta. With David the full two days. Flat through Eau Rogue was quite a buzz and I thought it would be unlikely I'd have the balls, but the Ginetta, and David made it happen. By the end of those two days I was on a proper high. If you want coaching and you can get him booked - do it he really is superb, and such a nice guy to spend time with. Obviously some of the stories he has make watching the VLN / NLS videos even better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_txvbdXh9Q In his 2020 season roundup he mentions a couple of our days. Approx 13.45mins in to the video. Sadly not seen him much this year as he's been busy racing and travel restrictions have also played a part. 2. You went Cayman —> race car… what race car? GT4 Clubsport or something else? As T said its a G55 Supercup 3. I hate the rear engine setup in the GT3s - how have you found adapting the driving style to suit? Ie now you’ve adapted, do you think it’s more rewarding / safer / more fun? I recently took the GT3 to a circuit in Spain, Monteblanco and I thought it felt like a grown up GT4 I'm just patient on the gas, but to be fair they are easy to drive I was expecting it to feel very different but my experience was it wasn't miles apart. Ive had 3 911 road cars before this one so I guess that could play at part in my being comfortable with the GT3. I had a PDK GT3 but missed the manual so I sold the PDK and brought a manual. Yeah its a fraction less quick but Im a bigger fraction slower, that car is mega and I dont think I'll out grow it, yeah its heavy and its a road car but its great fun on track. Now some selfish questions … 4. Was there a significant difference between the MR stock adjustment and the MR suspension kit (assuming the KWs)? -T's has answered this really - I only had the arm kit not the KW's - I am toying with the idea of just doing the full kit but I don’t know whether it’s night and day difference or not. I will almost exclusively drive the GT4 at the ring - I'd Speak to Ollie at RPM and see what he says he and the team set up all of my cars and do a great job. Ive heard the KW's are mega. 5. What kind of pace are you doing at the ring or Spa? Just trying to get a feel for where you were when you were in the GT4 and how that compares to where I am - I've still not been to the ring - hoping to correct that next year. Im not that quick, certainly not up to the pace of lots of folk on here. I did a 2.51 in the gt4 at Spa, i've seen lots of folk manage a 2.47 in the GT4 so Im a good few seconds off the pace. 1.55.9 I managed at Zandvoort if you've been there ? David did a 1.54.6 in the same car on the same day so again a couple off on a shorter track, Ive still got a long way to go.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilon-4laftE&t=... Davids lap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0djyFlf3cI. My lap. Hope that's of some use.

Very handy ... I'm faster at Spa and slower at Zandvoort ! How much difference did changing the final drive ratio make ??

Changing the final drive was a good upgrade, in that it meant I was changing gears earlier, and therefore a bit more often. It did feel like it gave it more acceleration but not by a massive amount to be fair. On reflection I'm glad I did it as it made it much more engaging road car, I'm not sure it made a massive difference for trackdays. I really do miss that car - it was such a good package the MR suspension arm package meant it didn't wear its tyre's out unevenly and the gear box mod addressed the thing that lots say could be better on the stock car. If I was buying another one and I found with a final drive mod done I would go for it.

That says a lot ... thanks !

FAO ChrisW…. 4.2 9A1 981 in Red, GT4 RS Clubsport in Blue 4.2 gives more total torque area, and similar peak power but 1k revs earlier and available in manual. Oh and it’s probably 1/2 the price of trying to get a 718 RS.

Do it, T! It's on my list of possible mods in the future...

I’m pretty close to making a final call, to be honest… it’s about the how and when at the moment, various channels are open.

Awesome - look forward to hearing how it goes if you do it

Assume the engine modifications is a US thing? Not seen anyone in the UK doing it

dashobbit said: Assume the engine modifications is a US thing? Not seen anyone in the UK doing it There is a build in progress in the UK at the moment, and I’m getting regular updates. Other options are also available in mainland Europe and yep, the US as ‘crate’ solutions, as build of existing motor, outright purchase for second motor or on a core exchange basis.

TDT said: dashobbit said: This is the best post on this thread as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience in this journey I have questions… 1. Where was the tuition with David? He’s an absolute beast of a driver, I love watching his VLN vids 2. You went Cayman —> race car… what race car? GT4 Clubsport or something else? 3. I hate the rear engine setup in the GT3s - how have you found adapting the driving style to suit? Ie now you’ve adapted, do you think it’s more rewarding / safer / more fun? Now some selfish questions … 4. Was there a significant difference between the MR stock adjustment and the MR suspension kit (assuming the KWs)? I am toying with the idea of just doing the full kit but I don’t know whether it’s night and day difference or not. I will almost exclusively drive the GT4 at the ring 5. What kind of pace are you doing at the ring or Spa? Just trying to get a feel for where you were when you were in the GT4 and how that compares to where I am Not sure how often J frequents this parish so I’ll answer for him for the moment for the points I know… 2 - Which race car?… Ginetta G55 4 - He had the MR kit for OEM suspension… so the lower arm Package, not the KW/MR damper/spring package. I’ve had this on my car since late 2018 and it allows for much wider range of adjustment over the stock hardware, which will be limited to around -2.2 on the front with the max number of shims. Large LCA inners- 991.1 RS Longer tension arm- 991.1 RS Brake ducting - 991.1 RS Longer tie rods Adjustable Rear toe arms The LCA inner from the MR kit are larger so you are already running more neg camber before adding shims. OEM rear toe links are fixed and therefore you only have limited toe adjustment via the eccentric bolt. The adjustable toe link allow much wider range of adjustment than the eccentric bolt, which can easily slip anyway. A track day focussed alignment on the MR arm package will have you somewhere around into the neg 3° range on the front and neg 2° range on the rear as a baseline. May 2020 I replaced PASM with KW Clubsport 3-way as per 981 MR kit. Edited by TDT on Sunday 19th December 14:20 Those dampers look to be a pain in the rear to adjust on the car,why not proper remote cans.

Yellow491 said: Those dampers look to be a pain in the rear to adjust on the car,why not proper remote cans. It’s easy once you have the wheel off But yep valid point… TBH the main thing i’ve been playing with is rebound, and this can be done easily on the front via the top mounts, same for the rears… I am actually just waiting for some rebound adjustment extenders to arrive for the rear so that I don’t have to unclip interior trim to make a change… I’d been mainly running with those panels off until I found a setup I liked. But If I was to do it again I would get with fully remote canisters for high/low speed compression instead of the piggy back. Rebound would still be on the damper though.

TDT said: Yellow491 said: Those dampers look to be a pain in the rear to adjust on the car,why not proper remote cans. It’s easy once you have the wheel off But yep valid point… TBH the main thing i’ve been playing with is rebound, and this can be done easily on the front via the top mounts, same for the rears… I am actually just waiting for some rebound adjustment extenders to arrive for the rear so that I don’t have to unclip interior trim to make a change… I’d been mainly running with those panels off until I found a setup I liked. But If I was to do it again I would get with fully remote canisters for high/low speed compression instead of the piggy back. Rebound would still be on the damper though. Its always worth getting dampers that are easily adjustable as you know ,otherwise it becomes a pain and might as well have had a good set of non adjustable that are set for the car etc also big plus for remotes is heat management away from heat etc.

TDT said: FAO ChrisW…. 4.2 9A1 981 in Red, GT4 RS Clubsport in Blue 4.2 gives more total torque area, and similar peak power but 1k revs earlier and available in manual. Oh and it’s probably 1/2 the price of trying to get a 718 RS. Thanks ! The power and torque for both seem short of expected figures ... but they are too high for power at the wheels ? I spoke to DeMan and shipping the car out to the USA ... and back, was not the most expensive solution. However, I would much prefer a more local solution .... if only for service work. It would also be possible to fit a GT3 engine into our cars, but it's interesting to see how the power bands compare between the 9A1 and GT3 ... the 9A1 matches the GT3 at 1000rpm lower in the range. But if you were going to modify at this level, would you go 4.2 or 4.5 ? It would be great fun to run around the GT4RS ...

TDT said: Yellow491 said: Those dampers look to be a pain in the rear to adjust on the car,why not proper remote cans. It’s easy once you have the wheel off But yep valid point… TBH the main thing i’ve been playing with is rebound, and this can be done easily on the front via the top mounts, same for the rears… I am actually just waiting for some rebound adjustment extenders to arrive for the rear so that I don’t have to unclip interior trim to make a change… I’d been mainly running with those panels off until I found a setup I liked. But If I was to do it again I would get with fully remote canisters for high/low speed compression instead of the piggy back. Rebound would still be on the damper though. To be honest, with Manthey Nurburgring settings on mine, I have hardly changed them.

Thanks Ralph, I think that says quite a lot. I believe that Jens also offers this option ... but which is better ? An upgrade of what I already have from Jens is quite appealing ...

ChrisW. said: Thanks ! The power and torque for both seem short of expected figures ... but they are too high for power at the wheels ? I spoke to DeMan and shipping the car out to the USA ... and back, was not the most expensive solution. However, I would much prefer a more local solution .... if only for service work. It would also be possible to fit a GT3 engine into our cars, but it's interesting to see how the power bands compare between the 9A1 and GT3 ... the 9A1 matches the GT3 at 1000rpm lower in the range. But if you were going to modify at this level, would you go 4.2 or 4.5 ? It would be great fun to run around the GT4RS ... DeMan and BGB collaborated on the 4.0L and 4.2L versions but BGB won’t do the 4.5L - make of that what you will. Jens has a GT3/Cup engine in his Clubsport but that required a new ECU to support the revs and he has a SADEV sequential box so mammoth software and wiring challenge. GT3 engine cost is c£65k but it may well increase with Jan 1 PET file update. Edited by gtsralph on Friday 24th December 18:06

ChrisW. said: Thanks Ralph, I think that says quite a lot. I believe that Jens also offers this option ... but which is better ? An upgrade of what I already have from Jens is quite appealing ... There is a Russian who posts on Rennlist ?jcviggen? who has a 4.2L 981 GT4, and there is this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4-spyder/1274007-gt4...

gtsralph said: ChrisW. said: Thanks Ralph, I think that says quite a lot. I believe that Jens also offers this option ... but which is better ? An upgrade of what I already have from Jens is quite appealing ... There is a Russian who posts on Rennlist ?jcviggen? who has a 4.2L 981 GT4, Jcviggen has a 3.8 X51 in a PDK 981 GTS (effectively a home brew 981 GT4 CS) This thread https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4-spyder/1274007-gt4... is about putting a GT3 engine into Cayman… Edited by TDT on Friday 24th December 18:28

ChrisW said: The power and torque for both seem short of expected figures ... but they are too high for power at the wheels ? Looks correct to me for readings on the BGB dyno… ChrisW said: I spoke to DeMan and shipping the car out to the USA ... and back, was not the most expensive solution. However, I would much prefer a more local solution .... if only for service work. Would you ship the whole car to the US, not just the engine/drivetrain? As you say would prefer something much closer… am investigating… have been talking to Jens and others. ChrisW said: It would also be possible to fit a GT3 engine into our cars, but it's interesting to see how the power bands compare between the 9A1 and GT3 ... the 9A1 matches the GT3 at 1000rpm lower in the range. Yep, as Ralph says, Jena has a reference to be able to do this and a ready supply of DGG GT3 engines, which can be mated to our 6-speed manuals…but the cost are….the costs.. Ultimately you’ll get back to a similar performance… ChrisW said: But if you were going to modify at this level, would you go 4.2 or 4.5 ? Personally I’d be quite happy with 4.2/4.3, for thermal margin and plus you save a little bit of money as you don’t need the new crankshaft required for the 4.5. Edited by TDT on Friday 24th December 18:31

TDT said: Jcviggen has a 3.8 X51 in a PDK 981 GTS (effectively a home brew 981 GT4 CS) This thread https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4-spyder/1274007-gt4... is about putting a GT3 engine into Cayman… Edited by TDT on Friday 24th December 18:28 Ah, I thought JC had upgraded. We’ve all come a long way since 2014. Jens’ first posts on pff were him asking for basic advice. John Teece said the GT3 engine upgrade was too costly for him to make money after development. John said ‘there is some crazy German guy in his garage fitting a 3.8L’ Jens used to upgrade ECUs for John before Cobb Accessport. Rick refused to supply 4.0L upgrade parts to overseas customers at first. The 981 has proven to be a great development base platform, whether starting with a 2.7 or GT4 and BGB will fit a PDK box to a GT4. Jens’ early days - first start https://youtu.be/DLRx32vTmnY

gtsralph said: TDT said: Jcviggen has a 3.8 X51 in a PDK 981 GTS (effectively a home brew 981 GT4 CS) This thread https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4-spyder/1274007-gt4... is about putting a GT3 engine into Cayman… Edited by TDT on Friday 24th December 18:28 Ah, I thought JC had upgraded. He has also got a 718 GT4. gtsralph said: We’ve all come a long way since 2014. Jens’ first posts on pff were him asking for basic advice. John Teece said the GT3 engine upgrade was too costly for him to make money after development. John said ‘there is some crazy German guy in his garage fitting a 3.8L’ Jens used to upgrade ECUs for John before Cobb Accessport. Rick refused to supply 4.0L upgrade parts to overseas customers at first. The 981 has proven to be a great development base platform, whether starting with a 2.7 or GT4 and BGB will fit a PDK box to a GT4. Jens’ early days - first start https://youtu.be/DLRx32vTmnY It has been fascinating to see it all unfold.

As if by magic…

An early RS.. 4 years ago

Colonel Mustard

Look at the ride height !

TDT said: As if by magic… Thailand No.1 ??

ChrisW. said: Look at the ride height ! Lol, I think it’s wearing some aftermarket side skirts.

TDT said: Colonel Mustard The one pictured predates CM which was yellow

gtsralph said: TDT said: Colonel Mustard The one pictured predates CM which was yellow Oh ok. I thought the yellow one was banana mania? Unless it’s the same car. Edited by TDT on Sunday 26th December 19:02

4.2 9A1 981 in Red, GT4 RS Clubsport in Blue Just to complete the circle… 992 GT3 plot, but not on the same BGB dyno as above. From the shapes it looks 4.2 gives more total torque area, and similar peak power but 1k revs earlier. Edited by TDT on Monday 27th December 14:01

The other significant difference between the 9A1 and GT3 is the low revs torque ... in this tune the 9A1 would be less friendly when trickling along ...

ChrisW. said: The other significant difference between the 9A1 and GT3 is the low revs torque ... in this tune the 9A1 would be less friendly when trickling along ... How do you mean? That throttle response will be urgent because of the wall of torque immediately available in the 9A1 vs a progressive build in the DGG? Might be a bit to do with the overlap of the data and where the readings start for each plot. Edited by TDT on Monday 27th December 14:07

Below 3500 rpm ?? Or is the torque only on a partial throttle at this point ?

ChrisW. said: Below 3500 rpm ?? Or is the torque inaccurately represented ? Yep, I think it’s just due to the plot data

Sorry T, I edited my first post

ChrisW. said: Sorry T, I edited my first post No worries. In either case I think it’s down to incomplete data for one reason or another as we know the motor doesn’t straight from nothing to 3.5. Hopefully BGB or some other can put these all together properly. Interesting info all the same.