718 GT4 PCCBs or Not??? - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Hi, I'm finalising my 718 GT4 spec and deliberating over whether to get PCCBs. Car won't be getting tracked and the only reason I can think of getting PCCBs is the lack of dust and I can get the calipers in yellow. What the thoughts of the massive, get them or not? Many thanks

Do you want PCCBs? Genuinely the only question that matters You could spec it with them, then take them off - 6k option but 20k to replace

How do you use your car? How long are you planning on keeping it? Are you prepared to pay the replacement cost if they get damaged? As they have little effect on resale, your own use case, finances and level of risk acceptance will be the key deciding factors.

N54 said: Hi, I'm finalising my 718 GT4 spec and deliberating over whether to get PCCBs. Car won't be getting tracked and the only reason I can think of getting PCCBs is the lack of dust and I can get the calipers in yellow. What the thoughts of the massive, get them or not? Many thanks Yes. Yellow calipers look great. I'm not a fan of red trim on cars (so red elements completely removed from my GT4), and the black calipers disappear. And they do the job of stopping the car wonderfully well.

Twinfan said: How do you use your car? How long are you planning on keeping it? Are you prepared to pay the replacement cost if they get damaged? As they have little effect on resale, your own use case, finances and level of risk acceptance will be the key deciding factors. The car will be a weekend toy I intend to keep it forever unless my finiancial situation changes. Is replacement cost really £20k GBP????

What’s the rest of the spec?

N54 said: The car will be a weekend toy I intend to keep it forever unless my finiancial situation changes. Is replacement cost really £20k GBP???? Yes, circa £10k per axle for both discs and all pads. And you'll need them intact to OPC spec if you want to run the extended warranty after year 3. You pays yer money and takes year choice.

The significantly lower weight of PCCBs (disc and hub) is of appreciable benefit to both ride comfort and steering feel. If you can afford them, get them - the difference is definitely worth it.

Twinfan said: How do you use your car? How long are you planning on keeping it? Are you prepared to pay the replacement cost if they get damaged? As they have little effect on resale, your own use case, finances and level of risk acceptance will be the key deciding factors. Twin, I respect your far superior knowledge of all things Porsche and cars in general but I question your ‘little effect on resale’ comment. Appreciate car with is not gonna obtain ~£6k more on resale but thinking it might be worth £3-4K more. Ceramic fitted (higher spec) cars appear to sell a bit quicker. Also never read on here about anyone having to fork out £20k for replacements. I walked into ceramics by chance and yes they feel good to me but I then I don’t think I would notice the difference if I had steels as I’m sure they do a good job too. Cleaning is the only time I notice In answer to original question I wouldn’t spec them for £6k but would be drawn to a car with them over the one without. Thanks in advance.

So you lose £2k on resale if you spec them - that's kind of the point I was making And while some people will actively look for them, others will actively avoid them. Swings and roundabouts

True but thinking every option losses some value.

Not sure about that. Buckets don't, for example...

I’ve had them on two previous Porsches, but not on my present one (bought pre-owned) - and I really miss them. The benefits are quite significant. They look great, don’t corrode, don’t create brake dust, perform brilliantly, should last forever - well 100k+ mls in normal use - and should add some value on resale (well I would pay extra). The main technical reason for them is the unsprung weight saving that can marginally improve ride, handling, steering and performance. If you are speccing your car to keep the overall weight down, then pccbs would provide a useful advantage.

N54 said: Hi, I'm finalising my 718 GT4 spec and deliberating over whether to get PCCBs. Car won't be getting tracked and the only reason I can think of getting PCCBs is the lack of dust and I can get the calipers in yellow. What the thoughts of the massive, get them or not? Many thanks For the replacement costs of £20K+, you'd be better off getting the red callipers painted to the yellow colour code that they use and live with the dust....after all you go on to say its going to be a weekend toy. With that comes the obligatory weekend wash, so brake dust won't be a problem.The fact you didn't realise the PCCBs are the price of a hatchback to replace, it might be wise to share the rest of your spec for advice. Congratulations on your future GT4! Best regards

‘The main technical reason for them is the unsprung weight saving that can marginally improve ride, handling, steering and performance’ Agreed visually they look great but I’m quite sure I don’t notice any of the above.

I had the previous generation GT4 and did not spec carbon brakes. I tracked my car and had no issue with the standard brakes. I wouldn’t spec the carbon brakes again if I were ordering a new one. The fear of replacement cost puts me off and pretty sure the standard brakes were standard on a gt3. On the other hand carbon bucket seats were a must. I wouldn’t have a gt4 or gt3 without them.

Twinfan said: Not sure about that. Buckets don't, for example... True …..probably the ‘best performing’ option.

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I’ve gone steel for both my GT4s. I’d far rather blow £6K odd on other more useful (to me at least) goodies like the essential buckets, LEDs cause I drive a lot at night and my eyesight ain’t as good as it was when I was young etc etc. I don’t want to always have the worry of their condition/replacement costs/damage by a tyre fitter and the like. Tbh, were I buying second hand I wouldn’t seek a PCCB equipped car nor pay much if any premium for one. That’s me, many would disagree and that’s great, we are all different!

Having just bought my GT4, one of the criteria when I was searching was steel brakes. First, the car does not need ceramic brakes, the steels are off the GT3 and are well up to the job, including track. Others have made the point about replacement cost. Sure, they weight less, but I never heard anyone complain about the ride/handling of a steel braked GT4 and I doubt most of us mere mortals could tell the difference I agree the lack of brake dust is a benefit, but I can't say washing the wheels bothers me.

N54 said: Hi, I'm finalising my 718 GT4 spec and deliberating over whether to get PCCBs. Car won't be getting tracked and the only reason I can think of getting PCCBs is the lack of dust and I can get the calipers in yellow. What the thoughts of the massive, get them or not? Many thanks For me if it's a weekend road toy and a potential keeper, the PCCBs would definitely get my vote from experience. Putting all weight saving etc to one side, the lack of disk corrosion can also be a great benefit especially if it's getting limited use, with minimal brake dust icing on the cake.

If you are not tracking it regularly then PCCBs all the way. Wouldn't buy a steel brake car personally, brake dust is a nightmare

Ceramics on a GT3. Steels on a GT4. Brake dust is rarely a problem unless you go silver wheels instead of sat plat or, god forbid, black. What does seem to afflict the GT4/981s and 718s in particular is the tendency for trapped stones to lodge in the rear nearside brake caliper. Strangely never had this with GT3s. Not such a problem with steels as ceramics. Those who claim they can differentiate between a GT4 with ceramics and one without even with the difference in unsprung weight must be true PH driving gods for sure. But just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons there was some evidence a few years back on the 981 GT4 threads to suggest that the smaller steel rotas provide some degree of additional downforce which could improve turn in at higher speeds on a steel braked car.......

av185 said: What does seem to afflict the GT4/981s and 718s in particular is the tendency for trapped stones to lodge in the rear nearside brake caliper. Strangely never had this with GT3s. Not such a problem with steels as ceramics. Just had the trapped stone on the NS front driving home from the dealer, didn't hear it and looks like the wheel is junk. (GT3 with PCCB)

From somebody currently speccing a GT4 for January spec lock, it's a "not" from me. Unless you're minted and/or a racing god, I see very little point in them. Cars on the used market with/without are similarly priced, and one could even go as far to say that they are an option some people do avoid in the used market due to cost to replace (and when buying used you don't know the full history of the PCCB's and how they have been treated), so in theory you are cutting down future sale audiences.

A couple of points to add. Although the lack of brake dust is a bi-product if the benefits, the black dust doesn’t just blight the wheels, it contaminates everything within the wheel arch areas - brakes, suspension, arches’, wheels, etc. So, a ceramic braked car keeps those areas looking cleaner and newer for longer. As has been mentioned before, in the unlikely event of a disc getting damaged (steel or ceramic) this is a justifiable insurance claim. If a stone, or whatever, damages the windscreen, paintwork, cooling system, brakes, etc, that’s why we have comprehensive accidental damage insurance.

The saving in unsprung mass is significant and just because anybody can't feel the difference between a steel and PCCB braked car, does not mean that there is not a significant and discernible difference to the way in which the car flows with the road improving both roadholding and feel. Corrosion of steel discs is avoided, brake dust with regards to cleaning and potential corrosion is reduced, brake pads last a lot longer and they do look cool. Yes the callipers are close to the wheel and the inside rim can be scratched by trapped stones, which is irritating cosmetically but not terminal (that I have ever heard of). On track they do not fade, in all use they last much longer than steel, and there are inexpensive aluminium pegs sold to avoid damage when changing wheels etc. I chose PCCB and would do so every time on a new car. In normal use you will never wear them out, if used for for many many trackdays you may ... but Surface Transform carbon discs are a very good track alternative which over a few years will save their cost in the alternative ... many sets of replacement steel discs and pads.

I'm collecting mine between Xmas and New Year after a 10 month wait, and whilst I did deliberate longer on the PCCB's than any other option, I left them off in the end. The topic has been endlessly debated on here and Rennlist....often quite aggressively at times....and the more I read, the more it boiled down to just a few regular posters who were in one camp or the other, and would endlessly role out the "for's and against's" for either setup....... Once I stripped out all this input from basically a handful of people....I found you would get the occasional short but well constructed comment from someone simply saying...."I've had both setups on xyz GT car etc.....and they are both great....so pick the one you want...." I went steels for a few reasons......A) - Racing Yellow was the only real choice for me (personally) other than PTS - I was gutted when I saw how powdery/milky Python was in the flesh and my original spec on the configurator was exactly that - Python, PCCB's, and yellow contrast stitch in the cabin.....but seeing Python in the flesh flipped that on it's head unfortunately.... So for me, RY with yellow calipers a slightly different shade of yellow.....was a big no-no....and paying extra for black calipers which looked even worse (to me)...was also a no. The red calipers are somewhat "iconic" I feel, and are identical to the Yellow calipers other than longer 'ears' to accommodate larger caliper brackets....functionally/mechanically they are the same caliper......and as has been mentioned....this is the GT3 setup afterall! I briefly flirted with shark blue and PCCB, as that came out just before I locked...but again, SB looks slightly powdery to my eyes, and also a bit too close to Maritime blue/a purply blue as well...... Did I really want to change the entire colour of the car just to accommodate the brake system......?? On balance...that would be a no! I also have, genuinely, in the 18 years or so where I currently live (North Hampshire) picked up stones that have trapped between the brake disc shield and the disc itself. It happened on cars with steel discs....the noise was horrendous for a day or two until the stone worked itself loose.....but other than that...no harm done...... If that happens with a CCB disc......it's a £4K touch.....There is lots of flint where I live, especially on the verges of some of the nicer driving back roads......and even though it's a very, VERY rare occurrence......it does happen often enough to be a "thing".....and did I want the worry every time I take the car out?.....does the pub I'm going to for lunch have a gravel car park?.....again...no thanks - don't need that worry (however small the chance).....for me personally that is though..... They look immense....no denying that...and certainly add to the theatre of the car sat on the driveway......but I didn't buy it to look at it either.... And as for dust....yes it's a thing, but any decent detailers can ceramic coat the wheels to the point that you can literally rinse them off with a watering can....so that's what I'll be doing. It's a very, very personal choice - your car, spec it how your usage and budget dictate...but DON'T spec it for the next guy!!

Well said! A proper bit of self research and a personal decision made. Exactly how it should be done, and pretty much the same kind of process I went through. There's no universally right or wrong choice, only what's right or wrong for you

I agree with this, spec for yourself with full knowledge. Regarding stones in the backing plate, thankfully when I've had this --- reversing has immediately extracted it, but I guess a risk.

ChrisW. said: I agree with this, spec for yourself with full knowledge. Regarding stones in the backing plate, thankfully when I've had this --- reversing has immediately extracted it, but I guess a risk. Agree. I've always specified PCCBs. If you hear a trapped stone, pull over to somewhere where one can perform a "spirited reverse" manoeuvre safely and 99% of the time that'll clear it immediately.

To me, PG is a strong but darker green. It doesn't pop anything like Lizard Green does for me, for example, or like the green on the old 997 GT3RSs. Check out the GTS 4.0 promo shots for other examples of it.

JudgeBaxter said: I was gutted when I saw how powdery/milky Python was in the flesh Not wishing to derail this thread, but I have gone for Python (still have a month to change it if I want), and I'm struggling to find a PG car to see in the metal. Is it really that bad? I've seen hundreds of PG GT4 pictures, but each and every one appears to be different. I don't want pastal and/or washed out. I'm hoping for a vivid/darker(but bright) green... Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 16:59 Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 17:05

981SPYGANG said: Twin, I respect your far superior knowledge of all things Porsche and cars in general but I question your ‘little effect on resale’ comment. Appreciate car with is not gonna obtain ~£6k more on resale but thinking it might be worth £3-4K more. Ceramic fitted (higher spec) cars appear to sell a bit quicker. Also never read on here about anyone having to fork out £20k for replacements. I walked into ceramics by chance and yes they feel good to me but I then I don’t think I would notice the difference if I had steels as I’m sure they do a good job too. Cleaning is the only time I notice In answer to original question I wouldn’t spec them for £6k but would be drawn to a car with them over the one without. Thanks in advance. Quoted 15k by RPM for a set of four discs and pads.

Honest advice, these days i'd spec PCCBs unless you really dont care about resale. I think they're becoming a must have as time goes on. Nowhere near as fragile as they were on earlier cars. If you plan to track it a lot you can always put a set of surface transforms on the car and keep the standard disks in a box.

kmpowell said: JudgeBaxter said: I was gutted when I saw how powdery/milky Python was in the flesh Not wishing to derail this thread, but I have gone for Python (still have a month to change it if I want), and I'm struggling to find a PG car to see in the metal. Is it really that bad? I've seen hundreds of PG GT4 pictures, but each and every one appears to be different. I don't want pastal and/or washed out. I'm hoping for a vivid/darker(but bright) green... Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 16:59 Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 17:05 Theres a python green boxster gts in Porsche cardiff Edited by GT4RS on Monday 20th December 19:13

caminator11 said: Honest advice, these days i'd spec PCCBs unless you really dont care about resale. I think they're becoming a must have as time goes on. Nowhere near as fragile as they were on earlier cars. If you plan to track it a lot you can always put a set of surface transforms on the car and keep the standard disks in a box. Would second hand prices on a PCCB GT4 ever recover the extra £5k spent when compared to an otherwise similarly spec’d car to an extent that resale is relevant to the decision? Also if you are going to track it why replace PCCBs with surface transforms? Surely it would make more sense to replace steels with surface transforms if you felt the need for ceramics on track? Not spoiling for an argument btw, genuinely curious as I’m locking spec down tomorrow! (Currently milky python and steels!)

Swine Enthusiast said: 981SPYGANG said: Twin, I respect your far superior knowledge of all things Porsche and cars in general but I question your ‘little effect on resale’ comment. Appreciate car with is not gonna obtain ~£6k more on resale but thinking it might be worth £3-4K more. Ceramic fitted (higher spec) cars appear to sell a bit quicker. Also never read on here about anyone having to fork out £20k for replacements. I walked into ceramics by chance and yes they feel good to me but I then I don’t think I would notice the difference if I had steels as I’m sure they do a good job too. Cleaning is the only time I notice In answer to original question I wouldn’t spec them for £6k but would be drawn to a car with them over the one without. Thanks in advance. Quoted 15k by RPM for a set of four discs and pads. Is that because you are contemplating a, dare I say it, ‘upgrade’ or are your existing ceramics totally ruined by ‘trapped stones’ and need replacing?

philj said: caminator11 said: Honest advice, these days i'd spec PCCBs unless you really dont care about resale. I think they're becoming a must have as time goes on. Nowhere near as fragile as they were on earlier cars. If you plan to track it a lot you can always put a set of surface transforms on the car and keep the standard disks in a box. Would second hand prices on a PCCB GT4 ever recover the extra £5k spent when compared to an otherwise similarly spec’d car to an extent that resale is relevant to the decision? Also if you are going to track it why replace PCCBs with surface transforms? Surely it would make more sense to replace steels with surface transforms if you felt the need for ceramics on track? Not spoiling for an argument btw, genuinely curious as I’m locking spec down tomorrow! (Currently milky python and steels!) No worries! No arguments here either I’m suffering a bit from the booster jab today so I may be rambling. I don’t think it will be ruinous to go with steels - just that there are more buyers for pccb cars and they seem to shift faster. You may well be right about never getting back your 5k though. I believe the ST replacement is a different product depending on whether you have the calliper and setup for steels or the one for pccbs. Truly though from what I was told by Ricky at RPM they have only ever seen one failure on the newest kind of PCCB and that was a gt2RS that had thousands of track miles. Don’t let me s t on your decisions, it sounds like a great spec and I’m sure you’ll love it. The only sentiment I wanted to get across was that I’m seeing more people in the market for the newest cars (718, 991.2/992) see pccb as a requirement as opposed to 997 and 991.1 gt3s where it was sometimes viewed as an expensive burden.

It's also a question of what the PCCB's are worth to you in your ownership ? I agree that you probably would not recover the full cost of the PCCB's come resale time. On the other hand, being realistic, depreciation is a fact of life ... with the value in use hopefully making up the difference.

Regarding Surface Transform v. PCCB's ... because the ST's cool so much better than PCCB's, disc pads last at least twice as long ... quite a saving at £1000 or more a set. I believe that Surface Transforms can be fitted in place of steel discs ... but I'm not sure of the specifications. https://www.surfacetransforms.com/product-finder/#... Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 20th December 20:59

ChrisW. said: I believe that Surface Transforms can be fitted in place of steel discs ... but I'm not sure of the specifications. https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/shop/porsche/718-...

ChrisW. said: Regarding Surface Transform v. PCCB's ... because the ST's cool so much better than PCCB's, disc pads last at least twice as long ... quite a saving at £1000 or more a set. I believe that Surface Transforms can be fitted in place of steel discs ... but I'm not sure of the specifications. Yep they can. Same spec rotor and bell assembly. Only difference is that a spacer is needed to move the calliper out to the correct distance for the bigger rotor and longer brake line. You get the stuff in the kit if you specify steel conversion with the order. Have to say whilst my PFCs are great performing and long lasting for steels, STs have come back onto my radar for the future for even more life and weight saving. Edited by TDT on Monday 20th December 21:00

We've all been busy searching Thanks ! But from this it would appear to be better to go steel and add ST, boxing up the steels ? On the other hand, the car is then non-standard .... Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 20th December 21:03

ChrisW. said: We've all been busy searching Thanks ! But from this it would appear to be better to go steel and add ST, boxing up the steels ? On the other hand, the car is then non-standard .... Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 20th December 21:03 The calliper Steel vs PCCB is pretty much the same apart from the colour and the mounting. So with converting from OEM steel to ST just a spacer is required to move the steel calliper out. It’s then just the same as an OEM PCCB specced car running STs To make the investment stack up though you need to do that pretty straight away so that there isn’t too much wear on the OEM rotors and they are in a good enough position to be put back on the car for resale/to pass 111. Edited by TDT on Monday 20th December 21:12

The other brilliant thing about ST which might be totally unique is that they are probably the only brake rotors in the world to have a decent resale value as they can be refinished up to 5 times per rotor. So you can use them and if they don’t transfer to your next car, you can recoup a decent chunk of the initial outlay, as people can buy them with confidence as a used item and restore to new.

caminator11 said: No worries! No arguments here either I’m suffering a bit from the booster jab today so I may be rambling. I don’t think it will be ruinous to go with steels - just that there are more buyers for pccb cars and they seem to shift faster. You may well be right about never getting back your 5k though. I believe the ST replacement is a different product depending on whether you have the calliper and setup for steels or the one for pccbs. Truly though from what I was told by Ricky at RPM they have only ever seen one failure on the newest kind of PCCB and that was a gt2RS that had thousands of track miles. Don’t let me s t on your decisions, it sounds like a great spec and I’m sure you’ll love it. The only sentiment I wanted to get across was that I’m seeing more people in the market for the newest cars (718, 991.2/992) see pccb as a requirement as opposed to 997 and 991.1 gt3s where it was sometimes viewed as an expensive burden. Thanks Caminator. Decisions decisions! Edited by philj on Monday 20th December 22:59

There are several posts here raising the spectre of a stone being trapped between the rear shield and the rotating face of the rotor. I think there's been a change in design strategy for the shields in the last year or so (20MY on??) such that the disc-like shields have now been superseded by an alternative design that protects the peripheral rotor 'edge' (where the vanes are open) rather than the rotor face itself. As far as I can tell, this change in design is common to both iron and ceramic brake fitments. An example is part #12 in the diagram below. Whatever the reason for this change, one of the benefits is the reduction (elimination?) of the prospect of stone entrapment between the rotor face and the previously dish-shaped shield. James Edited by short-shift on Tuesday 21st December 08:18

981SPYGANG said: Is that because you are contemplating a, dare I say it, ‘upgrade’ or are your existing ceramics totally ruined by ‘trapped stones’ and need replacing? No just asked out of fear of replacement costs, was going to swap to steels as I am terrified of hitting a pot hole and breaking a disc. Would keep the PCCB's in the spare room.

TDT said: The other brilliant thing about ST which might be totally unique is that they are probably the only brake rotors in the world to have a decent resale value as they can be refinished up to 5 times per rotor. So you can use them and if they don’t transfer to your next car, you can recoup a decent chunk of the initial outlay, as people can buy them with confidence as a used item and restore to new. And the high number of cars that can now use these parts ... everything GT 991 and 981 onwards ... if I had been allocated a GT4RS I would have transferred my ST's onto that ... the wear line now at the pad edge is barely even discernible and as you say, they can be re-finished up to five times

ChrisW. said: TDT said: The other brilliant thing about ST which might be totally unique is that they are probably the only brake rotors in the world to have a decent resale value as they can be refinished up to 5 times per rotor. So you can use them and if they don’t transfer to your next car, you can recoup a decent chunk of the initial outlay, as people can buy them with confidence as a used item and restore to new. And the high number of cars that can now use these parts ... everything GT 991 and 981 onwards ... if I had been allocated a GT4RS I would have transferred my ST's onto that ... the wear line now at the pad edge is barely even discernible and as you say, they can be re-finished up to five times You’d just need to double check that the bell/hat works on 5-lug and Center-lock… else you’d need a new hat for CL.

caminator11 said: The only sentiment I wanted to get across was that I’m seeing more people in the market for the newest cars (718, 991.2/992) see pccb as a requirement as opposed to 997 and 991.1 gt3s where it was sometimes viewed as an expensive burden. Be interesting to know the exact percentages of steel v pccbs but as you say there were far more steel braked 991.1 GT3s than 991.2s GT3s whereas it appears to be a similar proportion on the 981 v 718 GT4s where the vast majority have steel.

TDT said: You’d just need to double check that the bell/hat works on 5-lug and Center-lock… else you’d need a new hat for CL. IIRC ST discs are different ones for center locks and five lugs.

Taffy66 said: IIRC ST discs are different ones for center locks and five lugs. Whoops - didn't see the ST reference and made a comment (now deleted) that wasn't relevant! But there is no difference between rotor and hat assemblies for PCCB's (the same parts apply to both 5-lug and CL specs) so I'd struggle to see why ST's are any different. James Edited by short-shift on Tuesday 21st December 13:01

I think try really hard to see one in the metal if you can.....but don't let me dissuade you either...it's YOUR car..... To try and elaborate...PG was, in my head and when I saw it on the configurator....a strong 'solid' colour green....to me it looked like a slightly darker Viper green (which is iconic and would look amazing with the yellow PCCB's), and would have had it instantly if that were the case.... When I saw it in the flesh on a GTS, the best way that I can describe it is that it wasn't a true 'solid' colour and did have a slight but discernible chalky/powdery hue to it.....it wasn't as bold and didn't "pop" how I had expected it to in my head..... It's very hard to describe as mentioned, and purely MY own thoughts and observations......but under sunlight/bright light, it wasn't as bold as I'd hoped/wanted it to be....and arguably looks better/stronger in darker/less bright conditions, where the lack of sun tightens up the colour or makes it looks 'more dense' for want of a better explanation...... But to qualify this...we are talking tiny margins here....very tiny.......it just wasn't 'quite' as bold in the flesh as I'd hoped but I did see it in sunny/bright conditions......and having set my heart on it initially.....I was probably overly disappointed with hindsight, but again, that was just me. To describe it as washed-out or pastel like is an over-reaction - so apologies if that's put you off......But it is definitely slightly off of what I would call/consider to be a true bold colourway, and there is just a touch of something in there, whether you call it cloudy/powdery/chalky/milky or whatever...... It would definitely be stronger/bolder at this time of year and in darker conditions I would say, so just bear that in mind when you view. Interestingly, I can't recall seeing a 718 PG car with PCCB's fitted as yet - they all seem to have steel's on? kmpowell said: Not wishing to derail this thread, but I have gone for Python (still have a month to change it if I want), and I'm struggling to find a PG car to see in the metal. Is it really that bad? I've seen hundreds of PG GT4 pictures, but each and every one appears to be different. I don't want pastal and/or washed out. I'm hoping for a vivid/darker(but bright) green... Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 16:59 Edited by kmpowell on Monday 20th December 17:05[/footnote] [footnote]Edited by JudgeBaxter on Tuesday 21st December 13:11

JudgeBaxter said: I think try really hard to see one in the metal if you can.... I took a long drive out this morning to a dealer who had a Shark Blue GT3, a PG GTS and a Racing Yellow Boxster side by side. They were in a well lit showroom, but it gave me a really good understanding. I now see what you mean about PG. When the light hits it, it goes pale. Perfect in dull/dark/overcast conditions, but as soon as there is bright light the hue goes pale. As I moved around each car it was only the green that did it, and that was from artificial light, so I can only imagine it being worse on a sunny day. Shark Blue however was stunning, no pale hue at all, a consistent solid bright colour. Back to square one on my colour choice then, and I'll stop dragging this off-topic..

Getting back to the OP's original question.... It's interesting that the Surface Transforms option has come up again.....saw this a few times on the Rennlist threads also... Any way you cut it, dropping £12K on an aftermarket set of ST discs (and that's what your looking at once VAT and pads are added in), is a serious investment....and if you are that serious a track-dayer that you would be looking at them as an option...you will know well in advance of buying the car whether you want steels or ccb's or not, also how you drive on track, number of track-days per year etc. etc. So if your speccing from new or buying 2nd hand....to my mind you will already have made your mind up on the value of steels-vs-PCCB-vs-ST's well in advance. A lot of people seem to talk about boxing up originals and putting them back on come sale time....and whilst I'm sure plenty do do that....I can't recall actually ever seeing a car for sale with either the ST setup on, or as having stated that the originals were boxed from new and have "just been refitted"....how many are actually ex-track weapons that have been put back to road use I'm not sure, but I would doubt it's many cars overall..... I think the point I'm trying to make is that the ST option isn't really relevant to the "debate". If you are a serious track-dayer striving for laptimes etc. then you will be looking at the car in a completely different way and discs/pads/tyres/fluids etc. will all be seen as consumables, you will have tweaked the suspension perhaps with some Manthey bits and if your in that sort or league, you'll have a budget for your yearly track activity and so on.......You will have seriously thought it through basically, and won't be worried about re-sale and non-originality etc..... If you are just the "average Joe" type of buyer.....then it honestly does come down to...in my humble opinion....whether you like the look of them enough to justify the cost, and whether you like the different feel they have as well on the road. Even if you do the odd track day once or twice a year....the difference in wear is likely to be neglible as you probably won't be chasing lap times and hammering the car at 10/10ths for hours on end, and probably just having a fun day out once or twice a year and exploring the car a bit more......and on the street.....both are going to be MORE than adequate for any normal (or even spirited) situations..... The PCCB's have a harder initial bite for sure.....but you can firm up the pedal and bite on steels with a fluid/brake line swap and/or pad change and see change from £1K....if you want to go that route of course.... Again....for me personally and what I also considered as well.....it that I have grown up with steels, that's what I know and I like how they feel and the progressive nature.....I'd need to spend some serious time and get miles in with PCCB's to get to know them and bond with them...which was another reason, for me personally, not to spec them as I just want to focus on getting used to rear/mid engine balance again. If you personally like a snappier/harder response/initial bite......and the looks and lack of dust also are major positives...then it's seriously worth ticking the box..... But don't get drawn into this whole "you need them on there or the car is worthless" band-wagon.....it isn't the case....and won't make any tangible difference come resale time as there are always people buying for all sorts of different reasons at the end of the day, and all will be looking for a different mix of options...... That is...after-all.....why they are "options"...... Enjoy the process and tick all the boxes that will make you smile and happy to own the car, but equally don't tick a single box that would ever make you worry or pause for thought on getting in the car and taking it for a blast...

short-shift said: Taffy66 said: IIRC ST discs are different ones for center locks and five lugs. Whoops - didn't see the ST reference and made a comment (now deleted) that wasn't relevant! But there is no difference between rotor and hat assemblies for PCCB's (the same parts apply to both 5-lug and CL specs) so I'd struggle to see why ST's are any different. James Edited by short-shift on Tuesday 21st December 13:01 I’m pretty sure for ST they are slightly different, hence the recommendation to just double check with them, if thinking of transferring from 5-lug to CL, or vice-versa.

JudgeBaxter said: The PCCB's have a harder initial bite for sure.....but you can firm up the pedal and bite on steels with a fluid/brake line swap and/or pad change and see change from £1K....if you want to go that route of course.... It's the pads that change the bite. MR pads, for example, have similar bite but are more progressive as the pedal travels. You can get pads that bite really aggressively. The thing PCCBs give is endurance - you'll dehydrate long before they give way on track. All the chat about being lighter... i'm pretty confident most people on this forum are in the "it's how you stand by your car" rather than the "it's how you race" your car bracket, so it's irrelevant On the whole PCCB thing, they're good for 100k miles or around 15k race miles. If anyone's worried about the replacement cost: a) don't buy a 80k road car b) don't buy a race car with 10k miles

Taffy66 said: TDT said: You’d just need to double check that the bell/hat works on 5-lug and Center-lock… else you’d need a new hat for CL. IIRC ST discs are different ones for center locks and five lugs. This may be a very moot point for me .... but for those lucky few important ...

Swine Enthusiast said: 981SPYGANG said: Is that because you are contemplating a, dare I say it, ‘upgrade’ or are your existing ceramics totally ruined by ‘trapped stones’ and need replacing? No just asked out of fear of replacement costs, was going to swap to steels as I am terrified of hitting a pot hole and breaking a disc. Would keep the PCCB's in the spare room. Oh ok, not heard of people breaking discs on potholes more just damaging alloys. Really not sure how likely that is. Just be as careful as possible and enjoy……worst case scenario an insurance claim if covered?

981SPYGANG said: worst case scenario an insurance claim if covered? Koln-RS has claimed in previous discussions regarding PCCBs that they know of a Macan owner who succesfully claimed for a damaged PCCB disc from their insurance company. They didn't clarify how the damage occured, if this was in the UK or not and which insurer it was though. I think getting a payout could be tricky here in the UK. Damage due to a pothole and a shattered alloy too? I think you're in with a chance. Scored or chipped disc purely due to a stone that's been flicked up? I'm not so sure, given that you might need to replace them as a pair, so it would be two PCCB discs and two sets of pads at a cost of ~£7.5k. To replace what are consumable items, and this could be the insurance company's get out. It would be good to get someone in the insurance industry's view!

Agree with Twin could be a tricky claim here in the UK. Twigthewonderkid is the PH insurance expert but unfortunately he doesn't normally frequent the Porsche forums.....

kmpowell said: I took a long drive out this morning to a dealer who had a Shark Blue GT3, a PG GTS and a Racing Yellow Boxster side by side. They were in a well lit showroom, but it gave me a really good understanding. I now see what you mean about PG. When the light hits it, it goes pale. Perfect in dull/dark/overcast conditions, but as soon as there is bright light the hue goes pale. As I moved around each car it was only the green that did it, and that was from artificial light, so I can only imagine it being worse on a sunny day. Shark Blue however was stunning, no pale hue at all, a consistent solid bright colour. Back to square one on my colour choice then, and I'll stop dragging this off-topic.. Brooklands by any chance? I made the same comparison the weekend before last and felt the same way as you. However little over a week later and I’m back in the PG camp!

Twinfan said: 981SPYGANG said: worst case scenario an insurance claim if covered? Koln-RS has claimed in previous discussions regarding PCCBs that they know of a Macan owner who succesfully claimed for a damaged PCCB disc from their insurance company. They didn't clarify how the damage occured, if this was in the UK or not and which insurer it was though. I think getting a payout could be tricky here in the UK. Damage due to a pothole and a shattered alloy too? I think you're in with a chance. Scored or chipped disc purely due to a stone that's been flicked up? I'm not so sure, given that you might need to replace them as a pair, so it would be two PCCB discs and two sets of pads at a cost of ~£7.5k. To replace what are consumable items, and this could be the insurance company's get out. It would be good to get someone in the insurance industry's view! Agreed it wouldn’t be a shocker if there is something in the t&cs that means not being covered…….re getting trapped on disc prob covered for large boulders and house bricks only.

Just spotted this thread, although there have been many in the past . I’m a big fan of pccbs and have run them on my cars since the early 2000s - road and occasional track. Whether someone chooses to have them is a personal choice, but there are a lot of myths being promoted. From my experience they are as tough as steels, but with numerous useful and dynamic benefits, that make the price a positive bargain IMO. I’m guessing, but disc replacement in road use must be very rare. Pads, yes, but based on my use the discs should exceed 6-figure mileages. And, as mentioned elsewhere, if they did get genuine damage, I would definitely expect my insurers to pay out without any quibble.

Geneve said: I’m guessing, but disc replacement in road use must be very rare. Pads, yes, but based on my use the discs should exceed 6-figure mileages. And, as mentioned elsewhere, if they did get genuine damage, I would definitely expect my insurers to pay out without any quibble. I agree completely, wearing them out isn't an issue on the road. Damage is the main concern I think, although you don't hear about it very often but there are stories on Rennlist. Would you want to be the unlucky one? I think expecting insurers to pay out is all well and good but would they? It would be great to get some inside info somehow

philj said: Brooklands by any chance? Yup.