997.1 GT3 handling - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Whilst I’m aware this has no doubt been mentioned before, I’d like some advice. Having owned Lotus’s for almost 20 years, doing track days, road trips and general fast road use, this is my first Porsche, a dream car that I have lusted after since they came out. Car is Clubsport spect and is epic, bar one matter, handling. It rides on old P-zero’s, so I have a set of 4’s ready to go on. I’ve had the geo tweaked on the front end, as one wheel was pointing one way and the other another! I’m getting it properly done in August, as my Lotus man had a quick look over it and sorted it. The car is tramlining like a bugger and was, before the geo tweak, moving all over the place when braking hard into corners. Most unnerving! With that sorted, and with PASM left in comfort, it is better, but I find it very unconfidence in sprinting in fast road country use. Admittedly on bumping uneven roads, but over a certain number of leptons, I feel like backing out. Whilst it’s booked in for a geo, and I know that geo’s are very personal matter, I’m wondering if others have experienced the same. Car has done low miles, with recent replacement bushes etc. does anyone have any suggestions for ensuring stability over really fast road use? The rear end feels planted, but it feels as though the front end is too aggressive, meaning that it is following road cambers too much. Whilst I hate understeer, at this moment in time, I’d sacrifice some front end, for more overall stability! Any feedback appreciated!

With no disrespect to your Lotus man and his quick fix, take it to Center Gravity or Fearnsport and have it set up to your liking. My right rear was steering out as well as the front being all off. With front damper replacement (OEM Bilsteins) the job took the best part of a day. It transformed the drive thereafter. I have the DSC PASM controller too because I like a softer ride (NORMAL) on the road. With standard PASM, SPORT is undriveable on UK roads IMO.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Worth a read OP. Where in the UK are you?

Welcome to GT3 ownership. Enjoy the ride…

BrotherMouzone said: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Worth a read OP. Where in the UK are you? Only a few pages in, but thank you! I’m based in East Sussex.

You can’t even really begin to assess it on old tyres. Id recommend start with that.

I wouldn't take my 911 to my Lotus man. I went to CG who were superb. Unfortunately I find many of the Lotus specialists a bit cack. And that's at Lotuses...

Hopefully Digga will chime in. He has a a very well set up 997.1GT3 and is well qualified to give advice on how to improve its dynamics.

4pot said: I’m based in East Sussex. You’ve got Parr and Nine Excellence in Surrey who are more than familiar with GT3s. Nine Excellence can do DSC box and TracTive, should you wish to go down that road in the future. But yes change the tyres first! Good luck and have fun!

Thank you for the replies. With regards to “my Lotus man”, he also works on setting up GT3’s and 4’s, so does know his way around them. I also take note of the comments about Lotus specialists, been there and done that! There are specialist and then there are people who know what they’re doing😀 The car is certainly now better and I had a fantastic, late evening run last night. New tyres will help massively I’m sure. Currently I have the car booked in with precision Porsche for a full geo, but Paragon are also very close by. Are there any GT3 owners going to the Mid-Sussex Porsche BBQ on Wednesday?

4pot said: The car is tramlining like a bugger and was, before the geo tweak, moving all over the place when braking hard into corners. Most unnerving! With that sorted, and with PASM left in comfort, it is better, but I find it very unconfidence in sprinting in fast road country use. Admittedly on bumping uneven roads, but over a certain number of leptons, I feel like backing out. Might not be that relevant but all of that sounds like my Evora when I got it! Getting the geo done properly sorted all of it. Thing is it took three attempts to get it sorted . First the main dealer pronounced it ok and then an alleged motorsports specialist worked on it for a couple of hours and still made no difference. I persevered and finally had to go to a pure alignment specialist. He found it was massively out and to cap it all a lot of fixings were rusted solid meaning two visits - and confirmed the fact that the two previous attempts had done nothing but empty my wallet! What I don’t understand is how enthusiast owners of specialist cars like these can let them get so bad in the first place.

giveitfish said: What I don’t understand is how enthusiast owners of specialist cars like these can let them get so bad in the first place. Well firstly the deterioration is a slow process that often goes unnoticed, often by an owner who is using the car more infrequently due to work, family or other commitments. This and the fact that some owners aren’t particularly critical (or are more tolerant) of a poorly set up car. I’ve driven many newly purchased used Porsche GT cars over the years and been surprised how poorly set up they were, or the dampers, springs and other suspension components well past their best. As many have found out, finding the right outfit/individual to set these cars up is key, and if someone isn’t sufficiently committed to address siezed suspension components, they’re never going to spend the time necessary to find the ride, handling sweet spot that exists in all Porsche GT car chassis.

It’s such a shame more attention isn’t given to setup, and that it’s practitioners aren’t more reliable. Enthusiasts spend £000’s on tyres, engine mods etc etc yet often never get to experience their car handling the way it was designed to. Brand new cars get delivered to dealers and are out of alignment from day one - heck, even manufacturers send cars to magazines that aren’t setup right (I’m looking at you, Lotus).

If it still squirms under braking, is the diff OK? The plates can wear quickly.

Discombobulate said: If it still squirms under braking, is the diff OK? The plates can wear quickly. True, so it could well be worn diff plates, probably more likely to be zero toe (or toe out) on the front wheels, and/or the same issue on the rear. And if it's an issue on both the front and rear wheels, things can get pretty "interesting" under hard braking giveitfish said: It’s such a shame more attention isn’t given to setup, and that it’s practitioners aren’t more reliable. Enthusiasts spend £000’s on tyres, engine mods etc etc yet often never get to experience their car handling the way it was designed to. Brand new cars get delivered to dealers and are out of alignment from day one - heck, even manufacturers send cars to magazines that aren’t setup right (I’m looking at you, Lotus). Porsche have form on that front too. One year their silver 993 RS won Motor's COTY award (or something similar) it's handling praised for being sublime. The same car was used for the same test a year later, or a group test against the NSX, and the testers were shocked how poorly it steered. It's best to get recommendations off here or 911UK for decent geometry set ups, though 9/10 times the name that comes up will be Center Gravity. Not cheap, and sometimes a long waiting list. But IMO they're worth both the cost and wait.

I recently acquired a white 997.1 GT3 and posted this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... I can't recommend CG enough - 997s need special tools to adjust the rear camber, and it's unlikely a Lotus man would have them. Have also heard great things about Fearnsport and Porshacare/Rennworks, but I wanted to see if CG lived up to the hype, and was delighted to see that they did! Sounds like your car is unbalanced front to rear, as mine was, but the other way around.

As above, 997.1 GT3 owner and would echo that you do not have to use CG for setup, but to establish a baseline, on a car that is definitely not working as you wish it, I would suggest there is no better place to go. They will look at the components with near forensic detail. They will go over your personal goals for the car with similar attention. They will drive the car. It takes time, it costs money, but they really do deliver. Worn and old tyres aside, regardless also of the chocolate diff plates, there are any number of minor wear items that could be making significant reductions in precision and performance. You don't want someone who knows which 'boot' the engine is in on a 911, you want someone that does hundreds of chassis setups - road, track, race - every year.

Center Gravity geo setting up is forensic. Half a day. Three road tests b4 Chris was happy. I've had my 2009 997.2 Cab and 2017 991.2 Cab done & the difference is very significant. The 991.2 had dropped naturally by 10mm over 5 years so the geo was miles out. Most of their work is Porsche & theres a 2-3 month waiting list. Plus they check your brakes, all the suspension for wear in fact from the doors down. And you're on the test drives and shown every damn thing. For the price of a tyre they'll transform your Porsche

Thank you all for your comments. So I had the car geo’d by Nine Excellence just over a week ago. Tried to get it booked in with center gravity, but they couldn’t fit me in for months and I have a Euro roadtrip booked in a few weeks, so needed to address it sooner. In a nutshell the geo was out, and the car is now transformed! So much better and flows down the road how I expected it to. It also works with me as opposed to against me! Must say their pricing was also very good too. I’ve also got brand new Michelin 4’s ready to go on next week, so this will further enhance the experience. I’m now looking to enjoy it, but it will need a new front shock at some point so was looking for suggestions based upon the following use: - Fast road and European use. Might do one track day per year. Makes sense to consider some Ohlins, based upon the price of some new front shocks and get a full suspension. Won’t be this year, but would like to consider some option and real life experience from longer term owners. Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. Thoughts appreciated. Edited by 4pot on Tuesday 16th August 12:06

4pot said: Makes sense to consider some Ohlins, based upon the price of some new front shocks and get a full suspension. Won’t be this year, but would like to consider some option and real life experience from longer term owners. Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. Thoughts appreciated. Talk to ken at 9e about the Tractive dampers. Amazed he didn't try to sell you some when you were there. Joking aside, they are incredible and 9e are one of the leading UK installers. Good thread here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=148042

Digga said: Talk to ken at 9e about the Tractive dampers. Amazed he didn't try to sell you some when you were there. Joking aside, they are incredible and 9e are one of the leading UK installers. Good thread here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=148042 How much are they?

4pot said: Digga said: Talk to ken at 9e about the Tractive dampers. Amazed he didn't try to sell you some when you were there. Joking aside, they are incredible and 9e are one of the leading UK installers. Good thread here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=148042 How much are they? It's not just the dampers. you need the DSC controller too, but ballpark similar to passive dampers, but a world of difference. You'd be best talking to 9e.

4pot said: Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. How much for Ohlins?

SFO said: 4pot said: Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. How much for Ohlins? you might also want to ask - which Ohlins as the 'well priced' bit is not so often used in conjunction with TTX...

isaldiri said: SFO said: 4pot said: Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. How much for Ohlins? you might also want to ask - which Ohlins as the 'well priced' bit is not so often used in conjunction with TTX... Ditto, but to a lesser extent KW too. Not all dampers are created equal.

I’m pleased that you’ve got the handling sorted. I’m sure the tires will be similarly transformative. The standard dampers are made by Bilstein and can be refurbished in the UK for about £150 each. I think that, in conjunction with the DSC sport controller from Ken is a good place to start for what will be primarily a road car. Think Tractive is circa £4K fitted (plus £1250 for the DSC) and a set of Ohlins R&T is a little less. The DSC makes a big difference to the PASM setup. Edited by Galahad on Tuesday 23 August 20:17

Digga said: isaldiri said: SFO said: 4pot said: Have thought about B16 (?) Bilstiens, but Ohlins seem well priced. How much for Ohlins? you might also want to ask - which Ohlins as the 'well priced' bit is not so often used in conjunction with TTX... Ditto, but to a lesser extent KW too. Not all dampers are created equal. Very much so. Unfortunately dampers are one of these things you (mostly) get what you pay for and one isn't realistically going to be able to find TTX quality dampers (nevermind who's setting up the things after) for a 'good' mid-priced option like Bilsteins. I'd still pay more for quality damping and setup than just about any other mod though (even if it's taken me a good while to practise what I preach)

I've been very impressed so far just with the DSC module and accelerometor fitted with standard PASM. Personally I'm planning to fully exploit this set up first and then move to some other damper setup in the future (probably active, like tractive), once I feel I'm ready to exploit a higher ceiling I assume that will bring / or when it's simply time to upgrade

Thank you all for the feedback. PS4's now fitted and a Eurohoon awaits to enjoy the car. I imagine a Bilstein rebuild and a DSC controller is perhaps the way forward for me at present.

rrroro said: I've been very impressed so far just with the DSC module and accelerometor fitted with standard PASM. Personally I'm planning to fully exploit this set up first and then move to some other damper setup in the future (probably active, like tractive), once I feel I'm ready to exploit a higher ceiling I assume that will bring / or when it's simply time to upgrade Agree, DSC and accelerometer makes gains even with the OEM Bilstein dampers, for sure. Tractives push the envelope further still. Even in 'road/comfort' mode, the car rides flatter, but is also more compliant.

Digga said: rrroro said: I've been very impressed so far just with the DSC module and accelerometor fitted with standard PASM. Personally I'm planning to fully exploit this set up first and then move to some other damper setup in the future (probably active, like tractive), once I feel I'm ready to exploit a higher ceiling I assume that will bring / or when it's simply time to upgrade Agree, DSC and accelerometer makes gains even with the OEM Bilstein dampers, for sure. Tractives push the envelope further still. Even in 'road/comfort' mode, the car rides flatter, but is also more compliant. You make a good point with that pic! This is a 997.1 GT3 thread on handling, without any pictures of 997.1 GT3's being 'handled'

Jolly good! Handled, as opposed to mis/manhandled in my picture.

Hi Chaps Where did you get the photos from your track day? I was perhaps going to buy one from the Donington event on the 11th August. Thanks Ed

LemonTart said: Hi Chaps Where did you get the photos from your track day? I was perhaps going to buy one from the Donington event on the 11th August. Thanks Ed Sometimes the track organisers offer them as part of the day but otherwise usually there's an option to pay a bit for some pictures as well. The one above that Digga put up was provided as part of the day by Silverstone. DN do that as well for example on all of their own days if I'm not wrong with frozenspeed doing the photography.

Circuits Days and Opentrack send a link after your trackday where you can view and download pics. Included in the trackday fee

Thanks for the replies. I was sort of expecting a speculative sales email but will do some googling around. Cheers Ed

Best pics are usually the ones La Source takes, but he never turned up.

4pot said: Whilst I’m aware this has no doubt been mentioned before, I’d like some advice. Having owned Lotus’s for almost 20 years, doing track days, road trips and general fast road use, this is my first Porsche, a dream car that I have lusted after since they came out. Car is Clubsport spect and is epic, bar one matter, handling. It rides on old P-zero’s, so I have a set of 4’s ready to go on. I’ve had the geo tweaked on the front end, as one wheel was pointing one way and the other another! I’m getting it properly done in August, as my Lotus man had a quick look over it and sorted it. The car is tramlining like a bugger and was, before the geo tweak, moving all over the place when braking hard into corners. Most unnerving! With that sorted, and with PASM left in comfort, it is better, but I find it very unconfidence in sprinting in fast road country use. Admittedly on bumping uneven roads, but over a certain number of leptons, I feel like backing out. Whilst it’s booked in for a geo, and I know that geo’s are very personal matter, I’m wondering if others have experienced the same. Car has done low miles, with recent replacement bushes etc. does anyone have any suggestions for ensuring stability over really fast road use? The rear end feels planted, but it feels as though the front end is too aggressive, meaning that it is following road cambers too much. Whilst I hate understeer, at this moment in time, I’d sacrifice some front end, for more overall stability! Any feedback appreciated! As others have said, bin the old tyres, and be meticulous about tyre pressures. You need the damper to travel to get the car to work, so I find PASM sport is only of any use on billiard table smooth roads, or when travelling with a lot of commitment. Anyone who sets the car up will probably corner weight it, and that should tell you if things are setup correctly. You really want your front axle weights to be within 10Kg of each other, and ideally closer to 5Kg From what you’ve described though, the aggressive tramlining is most likely a symptom of old tyres which are past their best.

rrroro said: You make a good point with that pic! This is a 997.1 GT3 thread on handling, without any pictures of 997.1 GT3's being 'handled' Good excuse...

IREvans said: As others have said, bin the old tyres, and be meticulous about tyre pressures. You need the damper to travel to get the car to work, so I find PASM sport is only of any use on billiard table smooth roads, or when travelling with a lot of commitment. Anyone who sets the car up will probably corner weight it, and that should tell you if things are setup correctly. You really want your front axle weights to be within 10Kg of each other, and ideally closer to 5Kg From what you’ve described though, the aggressive tramlining is most likely a symptom of old tyres which are past their best. Even with the DSC controller, even with the DSC controller and the Tractive dampers, you are never looking to use ‘sport’ on the road. Even parts of the Nurburgring there are sections where the setting is a bit stiff, but I’m not about to switch, bouncing over the kerbs down to Foxholes and then have to figure out how and when to switch back before the compression and Adenau.

Digga said: Even with the DSC controller, even with the DSC controller and the Tractive dampers, you are never looking to use ‘sport’ on the road. Even parts of the Nurburgring there are sections where the setting is a bit stiff, but I’m not about to switch, bouncing over the kerbs down to Foxholes and then have to figure out how and when to switch back before the compression and Adenau. I build and set up rally cars, and I always want to build in as much movement into the damper as possible, even on really smooth tarmac.

Galahad said: I’m pleased that you’ve got the handling sorted. I’m sure the tires will be similarly transformative. The standard dampers are made by Bilstein and can be refurbished in the UK for about £150 each. I think that, in conjunction with the DSC sport controller from Ken is a good place to start for what will be primarily a road car. Think Tractive is circa £4K fitted (plus £1250 for the DSC) and a set of Ohlins R&T is a little less. The DSC makes a big difference to the PASM setup. I think the fitted price is a fair bit more than £4k. The factory bilstein replacements are more than that I think. Also worth noting that some specialists aren't keen on the refurb option as they can get stuck in the middle (between customer and bilstein) if the refurbed items aren't up to scratch. You also need a place to keep the car on a lift or stands while the dampers are being done.