Plenum Upgrade?

So I got the x51 in my 04 Porsche. I was thinking about upgrading to a IPD plenum. I do have K&N CAI. What are your guys thoughts? Is it worth the money?

I'm not normally into touchy-feely threads, but I'm truly conflicted so here goes... My story : 996TT was insanely awesome, saw DD plus mild track duty, and served me well...until I totaled it on the track. My wife was pregnant at the time and I've always loved the E46 M3 so I got one (pictured below) b/c I needed a functional backseat for the baby. It's already a legitimately fast car so all it needed was some suspension and brake upgrades (PSS10s, camber plates, PFC 08's, etc) and does great on the track but still doesn't feel like a P-car. It's now about as good as it can get without spending more serious money, and I do love it...BUT... I still find myself lusting for another 911. Couple that with the fact that my son's carseat will soon be front-facing so a 911 can work for the rare times he's not in my wife's SUV. I'm over the 996 fried egg headlights and don't "need" a turbo, plus a 997.1S fits the budget. So I test drove a 997.1S Cab 6MT with sport chrono today...and... Power : Honestly, it didn't feel much (if any?) faster than my M3 which isn't much of a surprise b/c my M3 can totally hang with 997's on the straights at the track. Both have good throttle response especially in sport mode (although 997's sport is smoother). 911 sounded better but M3 rev'd higher. I'd really need to drag them side-by-side to be sure, but draw or mild advantage to 911 especially if the 997 was a coupe (lighter) Handling : 997 definitely sits lower and corners flatter, and feels MUCH smaller, lighter, and therefore sportier than the M3. This is probably the biggest difference. But even with sport suspension turned on, I was unpleasantly surprised with the amount of body roll in the 997. Maybe my expectations are skewed b/c of coilovers and race alignment on my M3? I like my suspension tight...I actually drive around the street with my PSS10's on nearly full stiff so even sport setting didn't feel very stiff in 997. To compare apples:apples, I suppose the 997 would be much better on coilovers but I was hoping that I wouldn't need to upgrade suspension on this car. Mild advantage to 997 but not as much as I'd expected. Brakes : Not as good as my M3. However, my M3 has race pads/fluid/lines and Michelin PSS while the 997 was stock and on P Zeros. I'm confident the 997 brakes would be better with same components. Even though I didn't feel it...advantage 911. Styling : I love the aggressiveness and timelessness of the E46 M3. But the 911 is a 911 so who the hell can argue with that?? Advantage 911. Price : I'm into my M3 for ~$20k with purchase price plus upgrades. 997 would be ~$40k. Advantage M3 ...although this really isn't an issue b/c this isn't a financial decision per se. At the same time, though, money is money so do I really want to spend $20k more on a car that looks and feels cooler, but probably only puts down mildly better performance specs? Bottom Line : I guess I was expecting to be blown away by the 997S, but I wasn't. Does this mean I don't still want one? Hell no, I'd love to have one. It almost seems more like a $20k lateral move than an upgrade, though, which is tough to justify. This may sound crazy, but maybe I need to look at 997.1TT? That'd be an absolute monster in every respect for $60k which may make more "sense"...although I don't really need the power as the power of the 996 turbo was already overkill on the track. Is there anything I'm missing? Why do you guys love your 997S? Or is there something I'm missing (for example, might basic suspension, race pads, race alignment, exhaust, MPSS, and ECU flash or whatever make it a whole different car and blow away my E46 M3)? Thanks! ^^^Currently serves as DD, baby-carrier, and track car.

I have one and it is a nice mod. I would only do it if you are going to do a chip upgrade and also a free flowing exhaust.

Welcome back! It's obvious you miss your pcar and want to make the move. My first thoughts are maybe you will end up somewhat disappointed with a 997.1S because of your past experience with a 996TT. The 997.1S is an awesome car but is quite different than a TT. Perhaps test drive a 997.1TT and a 997.2S instead. Then maybe you could narrow to which model pcar will be next for you. And to really mix things up, consider a newer Cayman S too. edit: just saw your budget numbers, a 997TT or a decent 997.2S might be a stretch. Maybe start the hunt for a pristine 996TT?

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Quote: What kind of upgrades you have? How is the performance difference?

Awesome write up! I cannot wait to see what you decide! Better yet I can help you take either the Porsche or the BMW to the next level! If you decide to keep the BMW going with Sport Headers and high-flow cats will not only help you hang with the 997's but you'll be passing them. BMW e46 M3 Product Line If you decide to go with the Porsche the upgrades would be the same but make the car a massive upgrade over the M3, Sport headers and high-flow cats go a long way bolted on to either vehicle. Porsche 997 Product Line

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Quote: Revo Chip Plenum EVOMS Intake FVD Exhaust (Headers, X-Pipe 200 cell Cat's, Exhaust) Here's an old dyno sheet after the mods (this was with my previous Maxspeed full exhaust) Recently installed the RSS Underdrive pulley (and bypassed the A/C Compressor). This is a real nice mod.

I made that move 8 years ago. E46 M3 to an -06 997 C4S. Like you I was a bit disappointed in the performance at first. I remember thinking that the M3 actually felt faster but the one thing that got me to forget that right away was the visceral feel of the 911 that I haven't felt in any other car. Can't quiet put my finger on it so probably a combination of a lot of things but for starters, the driving position, intimate cockpit and exhaust note smoke the M3. The -06 C4S I bought was already lowered and had a Tubi exhaust so it felt so much more like a real sports car than the M3 which as great as it is, still is a sedan and feels like one in many ways.

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Sometimes I forget what bolt on's I have. I have it too along with EVOM Intake, GIAC and GHL exhaust. I know from several fun runs that I'm quicker than stock 996's and a little quicker than 996"S" with exhaust mods. I did dyno too years ago. I'd have to find the numbers but I think I recall 300whp using a dynojet machine. Quote:

Since returning from the UK in 1993 I have only gone 4 years without owning a 911. I started with a 1987 Carrera, progressed to 964, 993, and now 997 and I just cannot explain my love for the cars, but the saying "There is no substitute" holds true for me.

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Quote: What does the RSS underdrive pulley do? is it something you can "feel" by the seat of your pants?

I have owned many Porsche's (40) and almost as many BMW's (38) including many Mcars M3,(same series), M5, M6, and I currently have two Porsche's and two 650's (coupe and conv), the coupe has been given the dinan treatment, and has more power than my 07 M6 had. I am now well into the AARP stage of life and my racing days (as well as my how fast does it go 0-60) are over. Though in my life I have been fortunate enough to own some amazing cars (many Italian exotics among them), but in the end I always feel most comfortable behind the wheel of a 911 and there are probably many members here who feel that way too. Though my current 911 is so far from stock that some consider it a kit car, it still has that feeling I got when I got behind the wheel of my first 911 (almost 40 years ago). Over the years Porsche has improved the 911 (in some ways better and some ways not so much), but for me there is a feeling that I always know what the car is capable of (and in my case now what I am as well) and no matter what model I get into I instantly know what I can and cannot achieve with it. If you are looking for shear speed and power well there are many cars that can give you that for less money (I've probably owned many of them in my life), but for me none of them feel like a 911 does. It is that feeling that makes the car, turns it into the perfect sports car for me. That feeling does not come to everyone, and if it comes to you, then it is the right car to own.

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Quote: It's a smaller diameter crank pulley and smaller belt. Therefore you slow the use of the other accessories (alternator, power steering, water pump and a/c compressor). The slowing of those accessories frees up WHP. I had a problem with my a/c compressor, so for now I bypassed that as well (therefore using an even smaller belt). I can definitely feel seat-of-the-pants gains. The power feels more much more contiguous...

I own an E46 M3 and a 2011 Carrera S. Both are great cars, but the M3 doesn't give me the same sports car feeling as the Carrera especially in the turns. I have no doubt that I could do some mods to the E46 to make it comparable or better (faster and more agile) than the Porsche. The Porsche also gives me the ability to do DE events with PCA. I reduced the body roll in the Porsche by adding after market anti-roll bars.

good to know.. did you get the shortened belt from RSS as well? is it a complex install do you need any additional bolts when doing this...?

I think you are underestimating the of the 997s, 997s easily walk away from M3s, there is like a 7-10mph trap difference here. Either way, there is something great about the 997 that is hard to quanitify.

Which K&N intake are you running, and what's your normal type of driving (city/highway/track)? You need to use a cold air intake that doesn't draw in air from the very hot engine bay, especially if you're not typically driving at high speeds. The location of the filter in car with most cone filter setups means you're getting a whole lot of hot air into the engine and probably hurting your performance.

The only reason I would say not to do it is because you have arguably the best color of M3... the one thing I regret about trading my former car for was the color; I had a gorgeous Galaxy Blue Silica BRZ and traded it for a subtle-but-pretty Arctic Silver 997S. Other than that, go for it!

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Quote: RSS does not supply the belt but it's a common Gates belt that can be had locally. The install is pretty straight forward. The only "tricky process" is shaving down the Timing Boss which is a small metal part that sticks out of the block. For that you will need a powered grinder. Here's a picture of the boss after being removed (see clear silver area) and the pulley installed. Notice I was changing out my water pump as well...It's easier to do the water pump with the crank pulley removed.

I had both, imo there is no comparison on any of your points. Hands down, 911 is a better car.

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Quote: I have the Regular K&N, I think they only make one for our cars? I do have a 997 GT2 wing with the air scoops that feed directly into the bay.

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Quote: Agreed there is no substitute. The 911 is a better car!

I've owned a 996, which almost immediately I put a set of H&R springs on and it handled much better - referenced to your body-roll reference. The overall feel of the car was in my opinion better than a stock E46 M3. To that point, for several years I owned a highly modded M3. ESS CFR FMIC supercharged beast at 500 HP, with more on tap with another pulley and tune; KWV2 C/O, Eibach F/R sways, ARCA, and too many mods to list. I then owned a 997 base Carrera and mods began immediately starting with coilovers, and several other mods; now I'm into a 997S-1 and ended up going with H&R springs given the relatively low miles. With the engine stock, I believe at 355 HP (for now), and a stock M3 at 333, there's a lot of difference between the 2 - power and handling. The E46 M3's suspension is not all that great (speak of body-roll). Quite frankly, I toyed with the idea of another E46 M3, but it's quite a bit aged, whereas the 911 is just classic (not a fan of 996 - still bitter about the POS I owned). I think if you had the option of having an relatively inexpensive track car, the M3 would be pretty good because you can pick them up rather cheaply today. On the other hand, the 997S is both a great driver and excellent weekend track car while reliable. While BMW may be arguably the "Ultimate Driving Machine", relative to BMW, with Porsche, "There is no Substitute".

Drive a C2S coupe, not a cab or a C4 both are heavier I had two M3s before my first 911 and I don't know how there is any question in your mind which is better.

Quote: Agreed. Comparing a track prepped M3 to a stock Cab is not a valid compare.

I used to owned an M6 prior to my 997.1S, even with higher power on the M6 the 997S feel much more sportier. Now, I own 997.1TT and no M series cars can compete or compare to it (stock for stock not modify cars). If you're willing to spend a little more and get into 997.1TT or may be 997.2S, I think you won't be disappointing. Good luck

After about 8 years in a E46 M, I made the move last year into 997s...... I don't miss my M3 much

If you want to drive a couch, keep your m3. If you want a proper sports car, there is no substitute.

I have posted too much about this to want to do it again. Search. Bottom line: there is no comparison between these two cars either as daily driver or track tool. Anyone who cannot grasp the superiority of the 997 after the first 30 secs should save their money and invest in a different hobby. Sorry op but sometimes love does not really stand up to close scrutiny. Keep your car, stay with your fellow M3 board members and be happy. That is what it is about, no?

Based on what I had before... 997.1 S > m6 > m3 Like someone said once you are in porsche you are never going back... Lol...

Honestly, if you can keep the e46 m3, I would. They are only going up in value. If I had to pick one I would go 997 all day. I am in the market for an e46 M3, 6 speed. Let me know if you end up posting for it for sale. Good luck.

Reason #3515135 to sell your BMW: http://jalopnik.com/ultimate-level-b...-pi-1713911021

I considered an E90/92 M3 before going with a 997... E46 M3 was the same era as the 997.1's but not the same performance bracket and much lower in the purchase price bracket (they're a great performance value; make no mistake on that!). In the end I wanted a purer sports car since I already have a full size V8 people hauler. I also don't love most BMW interiors; too drab/unimaginative IMO.

I moved from an E46 M3 to an '07 997S. How do they compare? The E46 was on coil overs to make it not look like a 4x4. It was too stiff, my friends and family hated the ride. Never touched the suspension on the 997. Went to the Porsche driving school and learned how to drive it. Had to add a rasp terminator on the M3. Worst sounding exhaust on any car I've ever owned. Added a air box on the 997, sound from 4500 and up was awesome. Didn't even do exhaust and I've done exhaust on every car I've owned. Had an SMG M3. What a POS. Had a manual E92, worst manual I've ever owned. Don't know about the E46. But the 997 had a perfect manual. Stiff clutch, but not too stiff. The feel was just right. The shifter was tight and precise. Heel and toe downshifting was a breeze. The e92 shifter was rubbery, the clutch WAY too light and the gas pedal way too sensitive. The BMW brakes were way too touchy. The Porsche brakes always have perfect feel. Very light action when you first touch them and then pull hard when you step on them. The E46 brakes are better??? Are you kidding? On the track??? 997S stock brakes will get you around lap after lap. The M3 brakes have always been crap. Total crap. A joke in fact. How many M3s get big brake kits? How many do you see on 997s or turbos? Hardly any. The 997 has a completely different position. Excellent visibility, but much lower than an M3. The m3 is a 3 series BMW. The Porsche is a 911. The M3 is the most practical, fast, fun car you can get. I loved to put my bike in mine by putting the seats down. Can't do that with my turbo. I still take both my kids in the back of my turbo. There is a little less room, but there is still enough. If you think your new family is going to enjoy the ride in a car with coil overs, you may want to think again. Oh, FWIW, I went from the 997S to an E92M3. I've had the E36 as well. The E92 was a HUGE disappointment. Nice sound, but no torque whatsoever. Anyway, I hope that is food for thought.

Hi OP. I currently own/drive both cars. My e46 m3 has a similar build like yours and is a zcp. My 997.1 is stock. On paper you may think they are the same but in reality a big difference - with all props going to the 911. You should drive a coupe/CS model to really get a better comparison (with sport chrono and PSE). But if you feel it's a even match, keep the the e46. Still a great car. But no 997.

Excellent points all around, guys. I agree there is no substitute for a 911 which is why I'm shopping for my 2nd one! However, I test drove another 997.1S this weekend (this one on H&R sports, Fabspeed exhaust, SSK) and had a similar reaction as before: power felt more-or-less equivalent to the M3 (despite the purported 0.3-0.5 second advantage to 60, etc). Handling, stance, tightness, and overall vibe was far superior. Brakes weren't as good...sorry, they just haven't been, at least in the ones I'm testing, and at least compared to race pads/ss lines/MPSS on my M3. I think the power is really the issue (b/c I'll likely upgrade brakes and suspension anyway). If I'm gonna double/triple the cost of the car, part of me feels like it should be reasonably/noticeably faster. I wonder if I should be looking at a 997.2S instead of a 997.1S? But there have been tons of threads (yes, I've searched) that say the extra 30hp doesn't feel all that significant. I know none of these are built to be dragsters, but for the sake of argument, the 997.1S would probably pull away from the M3 (although they actually don't on the track), and the 997.2S would probably kill it, and I'd likely turn faster lap times in either of them than my M3. But it's an odd feeling when your 12 year old, cheap car with 120k miles feels similarly fast to the car you really think you want. Still conflicted. I'm sure I'll end up in another 911 soon, just not sure which one. Gonna try and test drive a 997.2S/4S next. And maybe just wait for the 997.1/.2TT's to drop in price a bit more...

A 997.2 GTS has an extra 23 hp over a C2S, add Sharkwerks exhaust.. takes it up another 10hp to 418hp, cuts 9lb from rear, and makes it sound even more special. The 997 GTS also has special trim, the wider rear, and is Porsche's last car with hydraulic steering. (attributes that make it special) just a suggestion.. i don't mention the gt3 because you need a car seat. Given the list of cars you've previously owned, may I also suggest that you might want to consider a used 2011/12 V8 Audi S5 with manual, or for new, the upcoming M2, or the Alfa Giulia Quadrofolio. Now those are some Stylish and Really high performing family friendly cars to choose from who are at least on par with an E46 M3.

Dr. FeelGood, Having gone from the E92 to a 997.2 TTS, I have loved every moment. Drivability, appearance, safety, reliability etc. However, the M3's DCT was always a winner compared to the 997's PDK, but this seems to have been rectified in later PDK variants. Cheers,

Based on your latest comments I don't think the 997 is for you. Either keep your E46 M3 (which seems like its tuned a bit for track duty) or go look at 997 TT for the added hp and tq. Don't waste your time, you're not feeling the 997.

This is silly. A 997 will smoke an E46. .1 or .2 makes no matter. And the brakes? C'mon.

Can't believe OP is still stuck here. You just cannot compare the 2 cars and .1 or .2 has nothing to do with this. As I said a while back if you do not get the difference you should not proceed. With all due respect I think you might ask yourself what is really bothering you. I'm not sure the answer is to be found on this forum. Good luck