I need your advice on which Porsche 911 to buy

First and foremost, I am new to this forum and hope to be a regular Now, before I begin, I am kinda "cheap", meaning I don't like to spend excess amounts on all kinds of things, like brand name foods or shoes, or super high end HiFi speakers costing $5000 a pair, etc As for where I live, there are apparently over 50,000 potholes (a variety of sizes) that have not been filled or attended to in my city-- a major fix/reconstruction for the oldest/uneven roads isn't in the city's budget anytime soon. Now onto the Porsche, I have kind of decided I want to spend a maximum of $32,000 USD on one.No more, as a budget's a budget. I know I have to set aside a few grand aside per year, but that is expected and I have no worries on that. It's the outright buying to own cost I am most concerned about. I have seen 2 996 Twins that are selling for $28,000-$30,000 USD, but with over 90K miles on them. They appear to have been well taken care of looking at both ads and what the seller has written. Reading on these Turbo's engine, they are rock solid and durable, and can run near or past the 200K mark so I'm not put off by the 90K miles put on them. Then there are less expensive alternatives like a 1999-2004 C2 and C4 models. I don't know much differences between the facelifted models and the earlier models from 1999 and 2000, other than more HP, higher torque per sq inch, and a new front bumper and Turbo Xenon headlamps. Reliability wise, after doing the IMS and RMS upgrades, I am at a lost. The newer models with lower mileage would be the way to go for these M96 engines, but then again I hear the 1999 models are great due to the smaller 3.4L engine and the shorter strokes needed compared with 2000 year model onwards. So I'm at a lost to which model I should get. All I know is I want a Guards Red, Black or Matte Black color scheme-- yellow being one I may consider. I am not interested in silver or blue colored cars. If I were to get this car, it will be only driven in dry/slightly wet conditions-- NEVER in winter, even if the 911 had AWD like the Carrera 4 or TT. I want either a six speed manual (feels more engaging, but is a pain in heavy or stop-go traffic) or a semi-auto/Tip model since I like the paddle shifting of other cars I have test driven last year. I don't really need all the power of the TT, though it is nice to show off or brag about to other enthusiasts. In any case, if I did get a M96 Carrera, and wanted bragging rights or more oomphf, I guess I can always get the car tuned and modded at a performance/sport/racing shop to upgrade the performance to near TT levels. Your guys' help, advice, suggestions is immensely appreciated, really! <3

Welcome to the forums. Ultimately, you have to decide why you want a Porsche. Are you a driver, or a polisher? Are you more interested in bragging about having a turbo, or about enjoying the driving experience? How will you drive it? Will you only go on cruises on the weekend, or will you drive it all week? Do you like twisty roads or will you be on the highway frequently? Do you want a cabriolet or a coupe? Will you take the car on the track? A Porsche calls to potential owners for lots of reasons. There's no wrong answer here... All these things should impact your decison on which model to buy. They are all good, for different reasons. Look at lots of Porsches and drive as many as you can. You'll discover what you want in a Porsche if you try.

With your budget you could buy a low mileage 996 Have flat Six do the ims/rms And still have dough to drive cross country I have a similar mind set I decided to look for the 996 with the least number of Options ie; power seats, heated anything, crests , Four wheel drive, you don't need any if that crap it weights more and breaks 996's are incredible cars

Any good Indy can do the IMS/RMS. With your budget you will have many choices. Take your time and when you know...you'll know. Good luck!

Thanks for the response guys. For the mileage, isn't this a catch 22 situation. These cars are meant for driving so a high mileage one with good records should be better/more reliable than a low mileage car with the same good records, no? I like the look of the TT the most to be honest, although any of them will look good in my eyes, as long as they are black or Guards Red, with a nice set of wheels/rims. Bad rims will make or break a car's look IMO, and I have seen sexy 996's online with good rims/wheels and ugly ones with basic/cheap looking silver rims. I don't like the higher upkeep of the Turbo, since it's a more complex engine and the fact I plan on driving the car 3 or 4 times a week for 6 months out of the year. I will not drive in winter, for many reasons--even if I was driving a Civic or Kia or a AWD 911. Too dangerous and driving conditions and road conditions are horrid here during winter. Having said this a non Turbo is what I want. Not sure if C4 is worth the higher cost of the C2... But, if it helps in rainy conditions, I'll likely get this and spend more. I have seen many nice 996 examples here from others, and am leaning towards the facelifted C2 or C4 now from 2002-2004.

I think a MK II 996 C2 or C4 would be excellent for your requirements. You should drive both for comparison. The engines and suspensions are essentially the same between the two models, but the drive a little differently. The added weight of the C4 in the front will make is handle slightly differently than the C2. It's not really noticable when driving on the street most of the time. That being said, the C4 offers PSM as a standard feature and the AWD system offers a little bit more grip, although it isn't much in most driving conditions. Good luck with your search.

Unless you are used to driving around with a lot of HP, I would go 996 C2. After upgrading from my 178 hp VW Corrado, I find the 296 hp in my 1999 very satisfying. I would buy a 996 that has already had the IMS update done for low 20s and then keep the rest of the cash in your budget in the bank for peace of mind in case it breaks. I was able to get my 99 with 77,000 miles for $17.7k but I have been told on this forum that I got pretty lucky. The previous owner did the IMS and maintained the car meticulously.

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Dennis , did the MKII Carrera 2 ever come with the PSM as an option? If so I may look into getting one with this over a C4. I have never driven an AWD vehicle, only a front engine car. Do you think the C4 and it's AWD is meant for more timid/newer drivers or people who only drive a car for transportation, and not for fun? Also, are rear wheel drives harder/worse to drive/handle than front engined ones (most everyday/generic cars I see are front engined)?? Speaking of suspensions, I want to lower the car by an inch or so, and use 19" rims... do I need to do upgrades or not, as I have read conflicting testaments--one person claims it didn't affect the drive/performance, another says this damages the springs, coils, etc very quickly. Your opinion? jamren , are the IMS and RMS upgrades expensive? I will have to consider this cost factor, if I find a Carrera that didn't get this replaced/upgraded. Nice car, though I am not a fan of silver at all. I'm sorry and good luck! Thanks again to everyone here for replying and helping me, I am grateful for this

I believe PSM was offered on the C2 as an option. I wouldn't classify the AWD cars as vehicles meant for timid drivers or for drivers who aren't interested in performance. The 996 turbos are all AWD cars (GT2 being the exception). In numbers published by Porsche from their own testing, the AWD C4S was four seconds faster around the Nurburgring than the C2. You could argue that this was due to bigger brakes or fatter rear tires, or whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that it's still a serious performance vehicle. Many track enthusiasts prefer the weight distribution and lighter weight of the C2. It's not that the C4 is bad, it's just different. Suspension mods are common for these vehicles, and the switch to 19" wheels is also. You'll find people who like 19" wheels and people who don't. It's important to note that the 996 was designed for 18" wheels. When the 997 launched with 19" wheels, Porsche changed the gearing by 5% so it wouldn't be slower than the 996. They also beefed up the suspension to handle the increased loads on the suspension due to the larger wheels. You should consider PSS10 coil-overs if you want to lower the car. I've heard good things about them.

Dennis, I am now leaning towards a 2002-2004 C2, and will settle for a 99/00 C2/C4 if prices are quite a bit lower. Having done some research on both a C2 and C4, I think a C2 will do for the 6 months I will be driving it. If I were to get 19" wheels, can I just upgrade the suspension and skip the coil-over upgrade? I may get the ECU flashed and upgrade the exhaust system, to boost HP and lower the weight. Also, are Brembo brakes worth getting? Are they more efficient than the stock brakes of either Carrera model? Thanks again!

The stock brakes are Brembos. They are very good. There are some suspension upgrades that are quite good for the 996. These include the M030 suspension or the X74 suspension from Porsche. You can also buy aftermarket springs. I'm sure somebody who has done this will chime in. It might be nice to get input from somebody with a lowered car and 19" wheels to give you advice on tire size, offset, etc. I just had an Evolution Motorsports ECU flash done on my car and I'm quite pleased with it. There are lots of great aftermarket exhaust options too.

If that's your budget then but a 993.

EMBPilot, I don't like the retro look of the 993 and much prefer the 996 and newer models over it, and the fact it's water cooled. Dennis, speaking of suspension, upon further online researching I have learned suspension and related parts will likely near the end of its life cycle on very high mileage 911s-- and I'm referring to well taken care of/extensive service history 911s. Is this something I should factor in when looking?? I don't like yellow that much, but this seems like a solid deal: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifie...2-2003/1335179 Judging from what he/she has written, without doing a PPI, would you guys think this is a smart buy? Any way to tell if he/she is hiding something or being intentionally misleading? I have spoken with my step-dad a few hours ago talking about my future car, and he recommended I get a 2004-2006 Boxster instead, if I want a Porsche. I told him I wanted a 911 (the 996 body styled 911 is my dream car), since it looks sexy as hell and it has a ton of street presence. He said it's more reliable and cheaper to maintain and run as the 2004 year apparently was the year the earliest 997 debuted with more reliable mechanics. I have to admit, the 2006 Boxster looks quite nice, and I don't like convertibles normally, unless it's a Lamborghini Murci/Gallardo or the Ferrari F430.

Why not start by driving as many 911 examples that you can. It should be easier for you to decide once you do. Your budget should allow you many options on a C2. GL

I've had both,2 wheel drive and the C4. If you like the idea of the rear end dancing (sliding) a little bit you may not like the C4 as it's rear end is planted. I personally like the solid feel of the AWD so my preference is the C4.

The 997 and 987 were launched in the US as 2005 models. They share a great deal of their mechanical equipment with the 996. They have the same great reliability as the 996, and I don't think you would really gain any advantage in terms of reliability. They have updated interiors and exteriors, which are nice. If you would consider a Boxster, you should drive one. It's a totally different animal than a 911.

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are you in the UK? since that Yellow 996 is RHD

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Hang on a sec... But you like the fact that the 996 shares the same fenders / headlights as a boxster ? Plus you're insinuating that you want reliability, Have a scroll through the 996 forum topics then have a look at the 993 and 997 topics... let the evidence speak for itself. Water cooling is not a "bonus"...

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993 owners are so sensitive...

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They come from the dark side........

Doesn't the 993 share headlights with the VW Beetle?

Dstutler , I can always upgrade the suspension--get ones that are more stiff, and heard that helps make the feel less floaty and more grounded at the front, which in effect--I assume, help make the rear more planted. Dennis , is the Boxster less fun to drive, or is it easier to drive, harder? I feel the oval headlights of the 997 are sometimes too retro for the body shape of the car--which let's face it, is a very huge step up from any 911 series that came before it. I have seen an old Top Gear where Tiff Needell said the headlights debuted on the 911 first, not the Boxster. The funniest part, thanks to hind-sight, is he said people would "soon forget" that the Boxster's front looks like the 911, almost like "siblings". XD Marc , I am not in the UK, but from browsing many sites' classified ads/forums, the prices seem to be lower than the in the States, and much lower than here in my country, Canada. I don't think the different side will be a deal breaker--I've seen a few Skylines, Supras and Mazda RX 7s in my city that are RHD, and I think it adds even more to the "unicorn" factor of these cars.

I would steer clear of a $32k TT especially one with high miles (I.e., closing in on 100k). Yes, these cars were meant to be driven but ANY car with 100k miles is quickly approaching a few major maintenance jobs. Consider that a routine 30k mile maintenance on a non-TT runs about $1,200 at a dealer. I don't know if you plan on doing any or all of the maintenance on the car yourself but the older/higher mileage the car, the more prone they are to needing new big ticket items. Saving $1-2k a year for the car on a tight budget isn't going to feel good. TTs just haven't really hit the low $30k price mark...unless you're willing to gamble. Someone whon classifies themselves as "cheap" isn't typically also a gambler in that way. There are good 996 options for you out there. I'd just steer you away from a TT at this point based on how you described yourself. If youre that stuck on it then go for it. My $.02. Best of luck! -Eric

Sue, thanks for your 2 cents. I have considered the TT, but I have seen some sexy looking 996's by doing a Google search. These are slightly modded, with really mainly the side markers, wing, and wheels/rims being the big ones as well as the tinted glasses. I think by spending 20K on a early Carrera will be the best route for me. Last month, I have contemplated on spending 40K on a TT, and I balanced the cons and pros. Since I'm on a budget and now realizing spending so much on a car is not the smartest/best idea, I am inclined to not go this route anymore. I say 30K or less to outright buy a Mark I or II, while setting aside $3000 a year is a smart option/idea... at least for myself it is. I dont plan on doing any of the work myself--maybe retorquing bits and pieces, here and there, along with oil changes. That's about it, and I plan on going to an independent shop rather than at a Porsche dealer. Lastly, I think I will maybe do 5000 miles or so every year anyways, so that routine 30K mile maintenance will be a non-issue.

you don't want to cheap out on a Turbo. The first words of advice I got from a very experienced Porsche owner "if you buy a Turbo engine from Porsche out of warranty have plenty of cash on hand". That being said the laws of "you get what you pay for" do not apply with Porsche. You pay up for everything. To me that means take advantage of the depreciation to get the best Porsche engine put into the Carrera. It comes down to street engine v. race enigne. GT3/Turbo fit the latter, it's the real deal as far as race-proven, bomb-proof, will run 3 24 hour races (or thereabouts) which translates into many years of street miles. If you believe that a Porsche's value comes primarily from its engine (these cars are worth shockingly little without a running engine) then there is no better value than the Turbo and GT3. Turbos bleed value like gaping wound early on, GT3's seem to hold well but mass production of those will catch up to them eventually like all 996/997/991's. However.....996 C4's and Turbos, basically all wheel drive 996 Carreras, have far too much understeer and there's not much you can really do about it. When the rear end gets drifty you lose power at the exact point you need it and the reward is even more push. If you plan to drive in snow and straight lines a lot, not a problem. Personally, a 996 GT3 is the best of both worlds and has pretty firm resale, but it can't be your primary vehicle and calling it a three-season car would be a stretch. Prepare for backpain if your local roads and highways suck. For a modest budget I would go 996 S with 1-a decent amount of mileage from 2- a warm-weather climate (no long-term hibernation), 3-enthusiast owned, with 4-all the major known trouble spots ressolved. A new spuspension here, IMS/Clutch there, water-pump there and you're in the hole a third or more of the car's purchase price. So take your time (there are nearly 200K 996's on the road, PLENTY of supply before you even get into the 997's) or save up more Franklins for a lower mileage 996 Turbo.

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or said differently ... 996/Boxster share the headlights and fenders with A and not B A - The last Porsche to win LeMans overall B...

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So how much cash extra should one set aside for a TT? How much would a water pump cost? I know suspension is around $5000, a clutch is under a grand and IMS/RMS + labor should be $3000 or less.

I think you should buy my car.

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Good question. Best directed to the 996 Turbo forum. Here on RL they group all turbos in separate forums. When I talked to my mechanic he made it pretty clear that the maintenance costs were definitely higher. After spending $12K on Boxster S upkeep (granted it's been on the road a long time, 13 years), that idea didn't sound so hot or at least I better spend that sort of cash on a Carrera that was more to my liking than a understeery grand touring like the Turbo (but still the best looking Carrera since '73 imho, not fan of round lights on modern cars). I think pretty much decided right then it would be C2, C2S, GT3 or go home. Maybe C7 Stingray -- you can't even buy a used Cayman R/Boxster Spyder for that change. And Cayman is too similar to what I already have and that's all she wrote for mid-engine, the new 981S is fast but I don't buy new, ever. Porsche have lost the plot on pricing anyway... 996 waterpump is a lot more involved on a Carrera than a Boxster. The latter runs about $1,000 with labor. I think LN's IMS Solution for single bearing 996's is about right with your number when you toss in the clutch, add a few more clams if you need a flywheel. Suspension number sounds high for stock, but toss in rotors and you're probably in the $3K range, Boxster S braking is practically the same as the 996.

Perfectlap has it right. You will not find a 996TT you would want to buy in the price range you originally described. Wonderful cars, but expensive to maintain and incredibly complex. If you get one, you want a really good one. Those are much more than $30k. Find a nice, moderate miles (30-70k) MkII with PSM, Advanced Technics, 18" wheels and full leather. The more options the better I think. It will probably need a clutch and an RMS, unless they were done recently. if so, upgrade the IMS at the same time. Figure 2-3k for the job. And new tires probably, or at least soon. Another $1k. It adds up fast when you first get the car, fixing and setting it up just the way you want it. Drive it for a couple of months before you decide to change anything. These cars are fairly amazing right out of the box... Except for mufflers. Order Fister Ds immediately. Trust me. Good luck.

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Thanks for the numbers--these are kinda high but at least suspension is less than I had expected. I think many of the classified ads for 996s tend to already have the IMS and RMS issue addressed, so that's already a good sign since I save money. As for the complexity of a TT, is it a lot harder for a mechanic to fix than say, a Carrera 2 Mark I? IYO, which would be less expensive to maintain year in and year out, aside from any major repairs; a 99-00 Carrera 2, or a 2002-2004 Carrera 2? Does one need to replace the IMS and the RMS every few years, assuming L&N or whomever, has already done the work a year ago? Is the IMS and RMS more or less a one time deal? I'd hate to have to spend 3 grand every few years on IMS/RMS replacements. rpm's S2 , thanks for giving a good range of miles to look for. Would 90,000 miles be good, or will this be the same deal like the Turbos in this 90K range? I noticed dealer sites that sell 30-40 mile range of Mark I and II 996s, tend to sell them for $35,000, give or take. No real mods or anything--looks stock, and they want 35 grand. I want to do a sale through a private seller, but are these dealer sold cars under some kind of warranty? I live in Canada, so if I were to buy from a US dealer, I assume even if they had a warranty coverage on a 996, I would not be eligible since I'm in a different country. As for mufflers, I was thinking of doing an exhaust system upgrade. I love the flat 6 sound in stock form, but I was thinking of this; Porsche 911 996 Carrera 4 Sport Exhaust by QuickSilver - YouTube This car looks sexy as hell, and nicer than 95% of the vehicles I see on a daily basis here in my city.

You're doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions and doing diligence around your options but I get the sense that you might be looking for a degree of certainty you just don't get from a used car let alone one with 90k miles on it. A few months ago, for example, a fellow RLer bought what appeared to be a great C4S. The IMSB blew on his drive home. He had the car PPI'd and did his research. It's a story that feels so wrong it's hard to believe. While you won't have an IMSB problem with a TT you may have other expensive issues arise; especially from a higher mileage engine. Replacing turbos and servicing a TT isn't cheap. $3k to replace an IMSB vs. the costs of maintaining a turbo? Pick your poison. And, to my original point, you just don't know what might happen tomorrow on any car, let alone one that has spent the past 9-14 yrs in the hands of 1 or more owners. I know there are many people who are of the opinion that higher mileage cars are the better bet when it comes to Porsches (if not most used cars) but i think there is a general consensus that cars with 100k miles start needing expensive kit purely based on wear and tear. So, while a low mileage car may suffer from weepy seals that have dried out and other maladies based on lack of use, a higher mileage car will suffer from parts failing due to lots of use. Choose your battle but, regardless of which direction you go, it will still be a battle. The IMSB replacement from LN is sold as a wear and tear item so figure you're going to need to replace it every 50k(?) miles or so. You said you don't foresee putting a lot of miles on the car so I wouldn't think this cost would be heavier than the costs of maintaining a TT engine. -Eric

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Exactly. It is a used car. There are no certainties or guarantees. A 90k car may well be in better condition than a 60k car. My 65k 996 is in far better condition than some cars I see with far less mileage. The PPI is critical - but not foolproof. If you assume you will have to spend $2-4k on top of the purchase price you will not be caught out. And beware exhaust upgrades that claim performance gains... these gains are often marginal and sometimes come at the cost of mid-range torque or other trade-offs. Again, drive the car for a while before you make significant changes.

I will add my 2 cents, if you plan on just driving during the summer the C2 will be just fine. I have had my car for a few months now and on the street I would have to push it to beyond stupid levels in the corners before it will break loose. Mine is a 99 C2 with only 45000 miles and I picked it up for 22K. It is super lightweight, sport seats, no power options, no LSD/PSM and I think it performs remarkably.

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Eric, I have basically ruled out the Twin Turbo as a car to get. I have narrowed it down to a Carrera 2 or 4. C2 is what I will get for 2 reasons: 1) Less expensive than the C4 to obtain outright, assuming it's the same year model with the very similar options. 2) Less running & engine parts than a C4, C4S and TT. Meaning, when it has 100K miles on it, and stuff breaks apart, I won't be in a black hole replacing as many parts. Less parts = less worry, and less money spent to replace/fix. Kramer , speaking of 22K, here is a 1999 C2 listed in this site's classifieds forum: https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...a-2-coupe.html For 22K, doesn't the 70,000+ miles seem too high for the price?? I want to think the price is high due to the time it's being sold (spring/summer), rather than the fact it's a Reds Guard 996. Does black command a higher price or does a Reds Guard??-- I'd take either color, though I'd rather choose the one that sells for less. For example's sake, let's say if there were two Carrera 2 911s side by side, with the same options, mileage and condition, listed in the same city, on the same day, same owner, etc. which would be sold at a higher price? Also, when you say pushing it to stupid limits into the corners, do you mean going really fast and possibly even doing a drift? "Sounds loose" kind of scares me, since I would hope if I go at high speeds, nothing will fall apart or become loose. rpm's S2 , I mainly want to get an exhaust, such as the Quicksilver, to "improve", the sound of the stock flat 6 engine. I like the fact the Quicksilver, as seen in the vid, basically makes it more audible and a bit "angrier"--while keeping the trademark sound/exhaust note of the stock 996. If it adds some HP or torque, or even if it does nothing, I think an exhaust upgrade is necessary for me. I like an aggressive and audible engine roar coming from a car, especially one that looks as nice as a 996. Safety wise, how was this car rated back in 99 to 04? Is it as safe as something that's rated high like a Toyota Camry or Corolla. Speaking of Camry, I have seen an ad in the paper this afternoon for a current model for $23,700, base price. That seems high for a non sports car IMO, and it's not much cheaper than a 5.0 Mustang. Obviously, I wouldn't get a Camry or Mustang, though I am amazed why it's so expensive for a car that is geared towards a small family, and for people who don't want to spend much on a car. I know KIA's cars fall under $15,000 and the sporty looking Dodge Dart goes for $20,000 or less.

If you simply want to improve the sound, get the Fister D 996 muffler. As for safety - The 911 is as safe as a sports car can be.

That's a base Camry...4cyl, no frills. You can price a Camry into the mid to high $30s depending on the model and options you choose. It's not a crazy price at all but why or how does a 2013 Camry even remotely relate to a 996? For that matter, how does a 996 relate to any modern day car in terms of comparison? The 996 may look modern in the way that all 911s look very similar and tend to be ageless as a result but we are talking about a car that first came out 14 years ago. Think about your own life that long ago and try making a comparison. A 2001 996 wasn't as reliable as a 2001 Camry, it didn't hold as many people, it wasn't as economical, as cheap to maintain, and it probably didn't do as well in crash tests (lthough I believe NHTSA tests are limited to categories of cars so I don't know whether there's a true way to verify that). That said, the cars have two entirely different missions in life and nobody at Porsche ever targeted a Camry owner when they engineered the 996. The 996 is not a Scion FRS either. It's a model that dates back to the previous century in terms of safety, reliability, economy, etc. and even then they weren't as reliable as a Honda or Toyota. This shouldn't be news. -Eric

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That one in the classifieds reminds me of mine only a bit more miles and more options (LSD and supple leather). Mine is a repaint where this one looks original which would make it more valuable, plus now that we are in high season prices are going up. Price may be a bit high, but that is the asking price and he could be negotiable. I personally like clean unmolested cars like that one. I picked a 99 due to the dual row IMS bearing and the more simple cable operated throttle instead of drive by wire on the 2000+ C2's and 1999+ C4's. Yes "break loose" meaning sliding the front or rear of the car due to excessive corner speed or hard acceleration/braking. I find my car has tremendous grip. My previous car was a supercharged 928 with around 440 crank hp which really required your utmost attention at full throttle.

not reading all this first off welcome second - buy one, and drive it for a year...find out what you want out of one, then keep it or buy the one you learned was the right car for you - in my case - it changed a lot over the year but I was happy to just get plugged in and start learning - the only regret is not doing it sooner!

Welcome to the forum. I've owned a decent assortment of P's - (chronologically listed) 2000 Boxster, 2000 Boxster S, 2002 C4S, 2001 911 Turbo, 2000 Boxster S, 2006 Cayman S. ALL have had fewer than 20k miles when purchased and were in mint condition. Surprisingly, the most enjoyable driving cars for overall me were the Boxster S's with the Cayman a close 2nd. If as you say you're not into names/badges etc, you REALLY don't care what others think.. ...and you're opened to any Porsche, I personally recommend starting with the newest 986 Boxster S with the lowest miles/owners that you can afford. For example, 2004 Boxster S with 20k miles for around 23k. All that said I'm on my way into a 1996 911 C2 Cab w/ 42k miles and can't wait. So go out and test drive!! Decide what feels the best, most connected, speaks to you the most. You shouldn't pick the car, it should pick you!!

^ I think you really have to be a roadster type to enjoy a Boxster S for more than short spell. It's not a very practical car and parts and labor for a Boxster S are no cheaper than a 996/997. Granted many people buy Boxsters because they foolishly believe the total outlay will be less than a 996/997. It all depends on what work has already been done and how the car was maintained up to that point. For instance I just had the waterpump and rotors done. $2k. And pricing is all over the place right now. I've seen 996's go for $10K and a year older 2000 base Boxster with low mileage go for 40% more -- sold in less than 3 days (TX car). They just made a truck load of these cars (996 and Boxster) so buyers can be choosey. To the OP, if you have a 2001-2004 with a single row bearing, you need to service aka replace the bearing if you are sticking with the conventional bearing. If you are doing the LNE Solution, you do it only once, its a bearing-free design but its $3K with labor. I think you're not supposed to run a single row bearing for more than 50K miles if I'm not mistaken... certainly not one using mettalic bearings instead of ceramic bearings, ferrous contamination issues that some with high mileage IMSB's ignore. Dual row bearings like on the older 996 Carreras will last longer, probably until your next clutch wears out. p.s. I'm not sure if the math on low mileage 996 Turbo vs. moderate/high mileage 996 RWD inherently disvafors the Turbo. I guess it depends on length of ownership. Nor does it consider issues like higher quality parts used in more expensive Porsches, cylinder wall construction in th 3.4 996 engine always come to my mind. That was clearly a cost-savings error. And generally it seems that's how it goes with Porsche, they try and skimp on the base model engines and base cars in general.

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Extremely well said Dennis C

I think I will be getting the Carrera 2 from 99 or later. No one talks about the 98 since I think that was the debut model and thus is prone to many problems. I don't really like the look of the old pre Cayman style Boxsters and would much prefer the 911s or the newest version of the Cayman, which is super expensive. If I had 50 grand or more, and had no worries of debt or getting into a hole, I'd likely opt for the Cayman S since that looks like a legitimate supercar.

2002 or greater is the only 911 996 to go w/ (except the '01 TT) IMHO... ('98 was 993)

Kramer , what is a drive-by wire? perfectlap , for the single bearing or double bearing, if I go for the LNE solution, you're saying it's basically a one time deal, and never again does one have to worry about this, correct?

i'm listening

Dire by wire is electronic steering. The 996 doesn't have it. For that matter, no cars from the late 90s had it. It is still relatively new technology albeit pervasive throughout the industry today. And, as for the LN bearing, as I stated earlier they describe it as a maintenance item. It is not a lifetime bearing. It does require replacement after the passage of miles. You can check the LN site for details and confirmation but my recollection was that they (or someone) recommended replacing it every 50k miles or so. -Eric

Actually drive by wire refers to throttle - cable vs electronic. 99 911 was cable, after this electronic throttle. Variable Electrically assisted power steering (vs pure hydraulic) is what Sue is referring to and is pretty new (991 has it) and fairly controversial because it kills steering feel at low speeds which is what you feel immediately on driving (so it feels like it just kills steering feel completely). That is sometimes referred to as "EPS" but I don't think there is a universally accepted quick term for it. It's vendor by vendor terms really.

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Let the value of a 996 vs that of a 993 & 997 speak for itself. There's a reason for that. You may continue on w ur discussion about grenading engines and LNE updates...

Really unnecessary post IMO, coming into the 996 forum to chime in on a thread where a guy is asking specifically about the 996 (and openly admits he doesn't like spending lots of money) and evangelizing the 993 The 993 is up on a high pedestal the world over ad nauseum. If the ONE place it gets deemphasized is the 996 forum on rennlist I suspect you guys will live. Shockingly enough there ARE people who do prefer the 996 and I believe the OP is one of them so no need for snide remarks really.

Double post

Quotes source post: 10451641

The value of 993's I agree. 997's no they are following the same path of the 996. I would buy a 993 but I am 6'2" 250 lbs and my knees would be beside my ears with the seat all the way back!

Quotes source post: 10451658

The 993 value is specious IMO. It's wrapped up in nostalgia and tradition. Not that it isn't a great car, but it is disproportionately valued because of that. Porschephile traditionalism, "end of an era", switch to water cooling. That has kept the 993 insanely high. None of that means much to many young or "new to Porsche" buyers. Super enthusiasts will continue to trade 993s around at increasingly insane prices (to the point where it pushed up the 964), and the modern cars will depreciate like modern cars do. Long term, however, I would not expect owners introduced to Porsche with the 996 forward to suddenly decide to go back to the 993 or earlier. Some will of course, but the trends for the majority rarely go that way. None of this means much for the OP who is looking for a *budget* 996. Quite the opposite bringing up high value classics for a guy who wants a cheap modern car.

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the OP asked which 911 he should buy. his budget can afford almost any 911 depending on condition. its only prudent to present all the options. and he specifically mentioned one being reliable and not eating repair costs.

Quotes source post: 10451641

997 Value will drop like a stone as well, The only reason it's not quite as fast as the 996 is the economy is "marginally" better right now. I don't see any new mass produced mainstream model Porsche's holding value like the older cars.

I'd love to own a 993 someday, but not as a daily driver. Values are high on the 993 for lots of reasons. One of the most important is simply the available supply vs. the demand. The 993 was only sold from 1995 - 1998. That, coupled with the fact that it was the last air-cooled car will always keep the values high. The 996 was produced for a longer period of time in much higher numbers. There are considerably more 996 cars available in the market. This keeps prices lower and makes the 996 a wonderful choice for a first 911 purchase.

One thing I have learnt about being a Porsche owner over the last couple of months, at least here where I currently live in Switzerland, is that 911 owners ALWAYS greet each other when seeing each other on the road (99% wave back because they are enthusiast while the last 1% because they didn't see you OR its just a car to them)... FANTASTIC. I have also been approached by people complimenting the car, old as young, so it does help me brushing up on French and German which is a plus. My first wish was a '99 996 3.4 C2 Cab or even a C4 Cab, then changed my focus to the later 3.6 C4 Cab and ended up with a C4S (non cab) as I feel in love the second I turned the key at the car dealer and luckily it checked out passing the tests I had arranged. I might have bought it anyway I just didn't fancy the look of the 997's interior and I would be spending my time watching the inside rather than the outside and the 996 ticked all the boxes. What the 997 does for me is the gril on the back which seems more rough but otherwise its the 996 all the way for me. So, as a relatively new Porsche 996 owner I would recommend to go for what you fancy and make sure it is in a good condition. I have never smiled as much as I do now driving it, OR even just passing it in the parking place in the garage. It will change your life I turn off the music, open the windows and rev it to around 3-4000 RPMs when driving through a tunnel and its sweet as hell (OK not as sweet as an air cooled 911) but hell it's worth the months of hard savings...

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Two very good points... 1. Part of the reason for the steep decline in 996 values from '08-'11 was the significant economic downturn that hit just as these cars were coming out of the 4-5 year loan cycle. The downturn hit the ranks of mid-career professionals particularly hard - exactly the first Porsche demographic (Porsche has often argued that the best lower-priced Porsche is a used one). For example, I bought my car from a mortgage attorney who was literally desperate to sell. Three and a half years later my car is worth only slightly less than what I paid for it, despite 25k more miles. 2. If you look at production figures for the 1990's air-cooled Porsches vs. the first generation of water-cooled cars, the numbers are striking. Worldwide Porsche sold just over 68,000 993s from 2004-2008. The 996 numbers are much larger, over 127,000 cars from 1998-2004. This was a goal - simplified production methods that allowed greater volume. Not surprisingly then the relative scarcity of the 993 + the 'last of the air-cooled cars' cache makes them more valuable. This is no slight to the 996, just simple economics.

Quotes source post: 10451641

That's only because so few were made. Not because the 993 is faster, better handling, more reliable and less expensive to maintain over the same mileage. The 993 is none of those things. It's simply a less developed car that was made in far more limited quantities with headlights and fenders that are popular with more people than remaining supply can accomodate. its all incredibly ironic because the 993 is the car that nearly bankrupted Porsche, barely 2,600 sold in the U.S. in its last year during a historic boom U.S. economy when Americans were buying two of everything. Meanwhile Porsche had to sell so many 996's to save Porsche -- 33K in 2002 alone, more than all 993's sold in the U.S. from 1995-1998 --- that they've now become too plentiful. If 200+K 993's had been sold during that robust 1990's economy, today they'd be selling for $10-20K just like the 996's, yes even with the VW headlights. Not enough weekend drivers ready/brave enough to drop air-cooled engine rebuild money around to outrun that kind of hypothetical supply. A double whammy would have faced the 993, extremely expensive engines to fix and far too much supply. Also, you might have to replace a grenaded 996 engine, or deal with an expensive engine repair costing north of $10K but that's exception not the rule to long-term 996 ownership, can't say the same thing about some air-cooled Carreras where $7-12K on engine maintenance alone is par for the course. And even with the advantage of limited supply, most 993's have not recouped their original sticker prices. Which is why they nearly went bankrupt in the first place. Also, do you really want a car that is handily beaten on track by a Boxster S? I mean if you can't even beat the chick car to the finish line...

As some have mentioned in the last few posts, I have as much interest in a 993 as a I have in a Toyota Camry, meaning 0%. I love that awesome Le Mans car picture, with the 996 headlights. It makes the car look super aggressive and sexy. And I LOL'ed at the front of that VW and Porsche 993 picture, only because the front grille looks too goofy and cute. Almost like a cartoon humanization of a car, geared towards viewers aged 3-6. As for the economy, do values of cars go up and down with the economy? Say, the US gets back to a boom cycle, would the 996 cars gradually go up/spike in price in the used market? Since the 996s were being sold during the economic crisis of 2007-2009, their values have dropped as one user here has said... should that mean the opposite be true when times aren't tough and things improve? I don't care too much about interiors, and not sure why people make such a big deal about it, especially 993 lovers or 996 haters (likely the same group). As long it's not an ugly color, it shouldn't matter if it's plastic or looks cheap. I prefer black and black leather to be honest, and that is what I will look out for, since it amps the coolness/sport car factor significantly. However, non leather and non black is not a deal breaker either, and unless the car had things different than a regular car, what's the big deal? Imagine if the clutch, gas pedal and gearbox were moved around to be "innovative" for the 996 series-- then I'd imagine EVERYONE would hate the interior, with good reason. I heard the second iteration of 996's have no cupholders--big deal. I would never eat anything like a sandwich or drink coffee while I'm inside of a car. If I spilled coffee on the seats, I'd be really mad and be depressed. Regarding the 997 dropping in value, I don't see that... is it happening now, or most assume it'll happen in a year or two since the 991 is here? Looking at eBay, the 997 Carreras-- the earliest models, are still 40 grand and higher, and these are for the boring colors like silver. 997.2 is even higher and goes for close to Lamborghini Gallardo territory. If the 997 is dropping or will drop in value, will this affect the 996's prices as well, or has the 996 basically depreciated as far as it can technically depreciate? For example, I remember reading somewhere that 2004-2005 Gallardos have basically fallen to the bare minimum on the used market, and realistically, it can only go back up in years to come and never depreciate any further.

The only possible way 996's go up in value is if the running supply of them are whittled down 90% to those scant 993 levels. And even then you've got all the supply of the 997 and then 991's coming up behind after all that 996 extermination. So the same applies to 997's going up in value, you've got SEVEN years worth of those Carreras to whittle down. Not going to happen.... The market for used Porsches simply isn't big enough for one series to sustain a hundred thousand plus cars that would 1 - be out of warranty 2- Banks won't lend for cars that old/abundant and 3 - that expensive to maintain. Most sports car owners are simply apprehensive about getting into any Porsche in general. So the best time to buy a mass produced Porsche will always be next year. Porsche exclusivity is gone. The 993 had nothing more than good timing (and mushy handling). p.s. early 997's are already into the $30K's. I've seen many perfectly good looking examples go for mid $30k's. With interest rates at nearly zero and the stock market and corporate earnings running this high, free money makes it easy for a 997 owner (with a nearly immaculate car) to get into a 991 a couple of years earlier than they had planned...thereby putting even more pressure on the mass produced, moderate to high mileage Carreras, Boxsters, Cayman and Cayennes already on the market. The only cars that seem to be avoiding this are cars that Porsche is not quick to replace in a given year like the GT3/GT2 but not the Carrera Turbos however. Those bleed perhaps the most value in its first couple of years.

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perfectlap , thanks for the explanation-- what you said makes sense, and it is basically supply and demand. I prefer the 996 over the 997 to be honest, so even if I can choose a 997 CS for example, for 5 grand more, I'd opt for the 996. I hope Lamborghini mass produces the Gallardo in its very last year of production so the 2004-2006 models will drop hard. 991s are gorgeous--however, Porsche plans to keep the 991 model for 14 years, with slight revisions and Turbos and GT variants released throughout this life cycle. So from now tilll 2027, 991s will remain very high in price, I think--at least till 2026/2027 when the next 911 model is on the horizon. So would you recommend cable or electronic, if given the choice? Does this affect understeer or oversteer? If I remember correctly, the Carrera 2 has oversteer (99 to 2004), right?

So would you recommend cable or electronic, if given the choice? Does this affect understeer or oversteer? If I remember correctly, the Carrera 2 has oversteer (99 to 2004), right? The mechanical throttle is much better from my own experience. I've had both, have electronic now.Issues come up now and again like rpms seem to hang and not drop as quick as you get off the gas making for slower than ideal shifting. I think all stock 996 Porsches push. You can add a stiffer rear sway to increase oversteer a bit and make handling a bit more neutral. I did this to my '99C2 and liked it.

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Dumb question, but is it technically possible for someone to convert from electrical to cable, on newer 911s? If so, I assume its more expensive than it's worth.

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oh is that right? while i will not argue quantities , or performance , the rest of your entire post is total hearsay. you speak like you have factual evidence to prove everything you posted when all you have is wind out of your a**(its clear by your post count)... seriously? thank god the 996 "saved Porsche" and to compare a boxster S to a 993 is like me saying a new Cayman will kick your 996s a** on the track... makes no sense to make that statement... No. Ok, the OP doesn't want a 993, i get it... Id rather buy a pcar, not worry about LNE updates ($3000) exploding engines, RMS leaks and AC Delco looking cabin controls... Esp when the OP stated he had a 30k budget, you can do a lot with that... Enjoy the only 911 to share body panels with a boxster (its hard for me to tell them apart)... you need only to look as far as the forum topics to see the writing on the walls... last post here. OP good luck with your search.

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Thank you...never really thought about it I guess. In my mind, I probably lumped it all together as "electronic." I appreciate the correction! -Eric

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What in the bloody hell are you blathering about? Also, if you would get depressed if coffee spills on your seats, you may want to seek therapy. wow, from total newb to a member of the porsche product planning staff. Hmm, so despite model runs shrinking over the past 30 years, you think porsche is now going to increase its model run from 7 years for the 996 and 7 years for the 997 to 14 years for the 991. And yet, you think that with a run of 14 years for the same car, you don't think the prices of 2013s would drop until 2027? Where do you come up with this nonsense?

Thanks to all of you for my Saturday morning entertainment. I also wonder why these threads end up with crazy arguments. The 996 is probably one the best bangs for your dollar. Great car but with a few thorny issues. The 993 has its strong following and it is an enthusiast car for those who like to wrench or have much $$$$ to have someone else do so. And now the 3.2s are moving up big time. and there is more etc. And don't beat on the 997s as I will take that personally. The OP will not go wrong in selecting any Porsche. As long as it has a history of proper maintenance. Mark

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LOL

Quadcammer, The 14 year note was mentioned in a car magazine a while back, when they are previewing the 991 model and said Porsche plans on having the 991 for 14 years with minor revisions, and variants.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...002-3-6-a.html

Quotes source post: 10454010

I was with you until this statement. I have undergone years of therapy to manage my own fears of coffee spill related depression. I'm sure there's a drug for it nowadays and a law firm happy to represent me and my class of afflicted brethren who have been so harmed by Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, et al. The best and quickest cure for me is a long drive. Besides, I don't need no steenkin' cupholders in my car. -Eric

Quotes source post: 10453476

^ For the original owner of each new Carrera I agree. Very High! (Turbo S $180+K). But on resale, 991 Prices are already falling fast (see link below). The Porsche tax has reached absurd levels and re-sale is a reality check on those prices. But for all that cash, unlike a 993, at least its fast and has sharp handling. But even novelty in limited numbers will always have a market. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=4&Log=0 p.s. 991 is more a derivative of the 997. Maybe they meant if you add up 7 years of 997 and 7 years of 991 it would spell about 14 years of a 'progression' design as opposed to a total reboot.

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I'm not going to lie. The 991 looks amazing, and I am not sure what the cost is originally for a new Carrera S, but I assume it's $99,000 or more. I guess depreciation is more than a reality for the 991 CS, lol In any case, the 370Z is another car I have on my list to possibly get. I have seen one yesterday in dark grey and it looks pretty sick. The ad prices on Pistonheads indicates a 370Z from 2009 can be had for the same prices as a 2002-04 Carrera 2/4, when you're talking manual vs manual prices or auto vs auto. Anyone here know someone who has a 370Z? Performance wise and handling, wouldn't both be nearly the same, since both are RWD and have a similar shape and wide body rear?

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I'm starting to wonder whether to take your posts seriously and I really don't mean this rudely. Do you really think that the similarity between the two cars' shapes, to the extent there is a resemblance, has any real function in determining their (or any car's) handling capabilities? The 911 has its engine in the rear. All of its weight hangs out back. The 370Z has an engine up front. That, along with countless other factors, contributes more to handling than the exterior shape. Moreover, you're once again comparing cars from different eras. The 996 came out in 1999! -Eric

Quotes source post: 10458863

I'm not sure why you said this. The 997 was a warmed over 996 with refreshed bodywork and, more importantly, round headlights. Yeah, it got other upgrades but it was a clear evolution of the 996. As I understand it, the 991 is also based on the 996/997 platform but more heavily modified. The new car got a longer wheelbase and even the base engine is a bigger departure as the IMS is now gone, too, right? To the extent the 991 is a 997 I guess you could say 996 owners are driving SWB 991s. lol -Eric

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The 997 owners complaining of the 991 styling have clearly not seen the studio renderings of the 991. Overlays of the two cars show virtually the same exact angles but the 991 lines extend further to accomodate the longer, wider more aerodynamic proportion. Porsche dropped in the Panamera interior, tinkered with the lights to create the impression of a bigger design change than is really there, and called it a day. The Boxster/996 design, now celebrating its 20th birthday, was truely a new concept design both outside and inside. 991: progression Boxster/996: reboot

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Got it...agreed 100%. -Eric

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My bad, someone told me the Nissan mid or rear engined.

Each 996 variant has its pros and cons except the GT2 which is the perfect 996 in every year. A C4S offers the best all around handling, looks, upgrades, but you are still stuck with a sheep in wolfs clothing syndrom. Get the 6 speed manual as the Tiptronic is pure crap for a real driver. A 996 TT is of course better but has higher purchase price and a few engine issues.