718 GT4 on the Ring (Warning... Shmee content) - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Shmee has taken his GT4 out to the Nurburgring for the first time and posted 2x in-car laps (3x camera views). If you can bear listening to him, then it's interesting to see how the car behaves in the hands of a non-racing driver. It also made me question if I want/need PDK on my order spec, the shifts look sublime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrtWXp57h6Y

I can't watch Schmee, but on the subject of PDK I recently passengered some laps on track in a friend's PDK GT4. I have a 718 GT4 in manual which I've taken on track. I'm probably going to state the obvious here, but here goes anyway... For ease of use and consistent lap times the PDK box is clearly the way to go. The shifts are impeccable both up and down and it allows you to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. The car is more settled, smoother all round and very slick - effortless. However... I felt that the car had lost a lot of its character. It seemed too easy, less raw feeeling and less of a challenge to really nail a good series of bends. My manual was much harder work to get right consistently but when you did it felt oh so good. I also think on the road it's a much more enjoyable option as it feels so rugged, mechanical and old-skool. Adding auto-blip on track really helps on the downshifts of course, but you still get that mechanical connection to the car. My take home view was that if you track a lot and you're chasing the absolute best times, or want an easier life on both road or track, then PDK is the way to go. Me, I'm more than happy with my manual as it's incredibly satisfying to use both on and off track. YMMV, other opinions are available etc etc.

He's unwatchable for me

p4cks said: He's unwatchable for me +10!

Twinfan said: I can't watch Schmee, but on the subject of PDK I recently passengered some laps on track in a friend's PDK GT4. I have a 718 GT4 in manual which I've taken on track. I'm probably going to state the obvious here, but here goes anyway... For ease of use and consistent lap times the PDK box is clearly the way to go. The shifts are impeccable both up and down and it allows you to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. The car is more settled, smoother all round and very slick - effortless. However... I felt that the car had lost a lot of its character. It seemed too easy, less raw feeeling and less of a challenge to really nail a good series of bends. My manual was much harder work to get right consistently but when you did it felt oh so good. I also think on the road it's a much more enjoyable option as it feels so rugged, mechanical and old-skool. Adding auto-blip on track really helps on the downshifts of course, but you still get that mechanical connection to the car. My take home view was that if you track a lot and you're chasing the absolute best times, or want an easier life on both road or track, then PDK is the way to go. Me, I'm more than happy with my manual as it's incredibly satisfying to use both on and off track. YMMV, other opinions are available etc etc. Wow

I guess that may have come across that driving gods choose manuals eh? Whoops! Not what I was trying to say at all. It was supposed to be an observation that the PDK car feels quite different to a manual and I feel people will definitely prefer one over the other depending on what they want from a car

Melvynr said: Wow I don’t get what’s so funny?

Rojibo said: I don’t get what’s so funny? Neither did I, I'm just guessing it reads differently to other people than to how I thought I'd expressed it

Twinfan said: I guess that may have come across that driving gods choose manuals eh? Whoops! Not what I was trying to say at all. It was supposed to be an observation that the PDK car feels quite different to a manual and I feel people will definitely prefer one over the other depending on what they want from a car Forgiven

Rojibo said: I don’t get what’s so funny? Am guessing you are also a manual guy?

Melvynr said: Am guessing you are also a manual guy? What was so funny?

Was there an orange light on the dash or is that just my bad eyes?

I was at the Destination Nurburgring track day and then Scuderia S7 event on the days before he went - the weekend looked mental in terms of traffic, but the weather was glorious on those last few days I'm not a pro driver but have been doing the ring for around 15 years so know where it goes. The car is about 6 weeks old and was just run in before being driven over - first track day in the car so i'm sure there's more to come, but I'm more about confidence and safety margin than the lowest possible lap time Excuse the balls-up with the overlays - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErEVpXhbGxg&ab is a 7.32 (PDK) It's totally standard. My takeaways were: - camber needs sorting on the front. My tyres are worn in an 'interesting' way, and have more wear on the outside - lack of aero at a few places makes some points "interesting". I had a few wobbles at the top of the three left handers after bergwerk, and sprunghogel needs respect. The bump after tiergarten on a 'flying lap' is also... interesting - harder suspension setting was better Potentially looking at the MR kit next year but will see how it goes

Twinfan said: It seemed too easy This is the only point I'd probably want to 'correct'. It's easier (obviously) to have two hands on the wheel when changing gear if all other factors are a constant... ...but you should be going faster, and braking later as a result, and thus it suddenly becomes 'less easy' because everything is happening a lot more quickly Using the 'ring as an example, if you're happy with (for argument's sake) a 7.50 lap experience, then I would agree the PDK is a waste of time as it's easily achievable with a manual. But if you want to go faster, then things happen more quickly, and the excitement factor of the speed makes it more of an 'experience'... you then start to approach the limit of what you can do (aside from all the driving gods among us, of course) Personally, I don't think I could, or would enjoy, doing the lap above with a manual box. I'd quite like to get to the low 7.20s and do so as safely as possible, and I know there's definitely no way I'd be doing that with a manual, hence why I went PDK I have a highly modified and unreliable piece of french clutter with a short shifter for the 'driving experience' ;-)

Rojibo said: What was so funny? This manual s te, how it changes the character of a car.

Good god that guy is super annoying

Melvynr said: This manual s te, how it changes the character of a car. It's not s te if you think it does. I certainly do. The drivetrain is everything to me and how I perceive a car's character. Same as turbo vs NASP - it's different isn't it?

Twinfan said: It's not s te if you think it does. I certainly do. The drivetrain is everything to me and how I perceive a car's character. Same as turbo vs NASP - it's different isn't it? Tell me what's different. then because it's a manual. You push the clutch in and change gear, that's it. How does that change the character?you mentioned hitting a series of bends, you wouldn't change gear going around them. How does the manual or pdk box change the drivetrain when they are both the same ? You should be happy that you like the manual and accept others like the pdk and keep the bull to yourself.

MPorsche said: Was there an orange light on the dash or is that just my bad eyes? Tyre pressure - because he didn't put TPMS in circuit mode, and started the drive below normal road pressures. 1.8F and 2.1R he said vs 2.0F and 2.3R Edited by TDT on Thursday 9th September 17:19

Melvynr said: Tell me what's different. then because it's a manual. You push the clutch in and change gear, that's it. How does that change the character?you mentioned hitting a series of bends, you wouldn't change gear going around them. How does the manual or pdk box change the drivetrain when they are both the same ? You should be happy that you like the manual and accept others like the pdk and keep the bull to yourself. I meant powertrain not drivetrain, of course. An error on my part. You clearly like PDK, which is great, but to claim it's no different to driving a manual car is bull to me. Anyhoo, have a nice evening in your ivory tower.

Twinfan said: I meant powertrain not drivetrain, of course. An error on my part. You clearly like PDK, which is great, but to claim it's no different to driving a manual car is bull to me. Anyhoo, have a nice evening in your ivory tower. Not ivory and far from it. Enjoy your motor as I do mine.

Edited by DavidLankaster on Thursday 9th September 17:54

Melvynr said: Tell me what's different. then because it's a manual. You push the clutch in and change gear, that's it. How does that change the character?you mentioned hitting a series of bends, you wouldn't change gear going around them. How does the manual or pdk box change the drivetrain when they are both the same ? You should be happy that you like the manual and accept others like the pdk and keep the bull to yourself. You ok Melv ? This isn't your usual modus operandi

Slippydiff said: You ok Melv ? This isn't your usual modus operandi Am fine

DavidLankaster said:

dashobbit said: Twinfan said: It seemed too easy This is the only point I'd probably want to 'correct'. It's easier (obviously) to have two hands on the wheel when changing gear if all other factors are a constant... ...but you should be going faster, and braking later as a result, and thus it suddenly becomes 'less easy' because everything is happening a lot more quickly Agreed with that. Although I'd add for most people 7:50 btg in a gt4 whether manual or dual clutch probably isn't quite as easy as you are suggesting....!

Just for reference, I wasn't referring to the 'ring but just my own experience earlier this week at a UK track.

Twinfan said: Just for reference, I wasn't referring to the 'ring but just my own experience earlier this week at a UK track. Doesn't really change the point that dashobbit was making though. Track isn't really relevant - irrespective of track, at higher speeds stuff does happen at a rate that definitely eats away at available 'brain space' so to speak.

Twinfan said: Just for reference, I wasn't referring to the 'ring but just my own experience earlier this week at a UK track. Was that the Blyton day?, did you find it a more comfortable/relaxed experience?

I can see why some cannot watch him, but he is clearly having fun and it’s all nicely upbeat - I certainly find him more watchable than Jayemm who seems overwhelmed with the desire to fulfil the role of a critic ( unless someone has been indulgent enough to lend him their car, at which point the critique hat is duly popped back in the box ) Coincidentally, they both appear to have used a lost property department to clothe themselves and I am further at a loss as to why anyone would buy a purple car with gold wheels, but he is clearly an enthusiast and he drives competently with diligence snd respect for those who are on the track at the same time. Edited by Tin Hat on Thursday 9th September 22:37

TDT said: Was that the Blyton day?, did you find it a more comfortable/relaxed experience? Nope, and I wasn't driving this time - just passengering. My next outing is Oulton at the end of Oct.

I’m sure they’re nice blokes, but I find this chap and that ‘Seen Through Glass’ guy a bit much… on this clip, however, I found him far more palatable just talking you through his lap than his usual flamboyant lyrical-waxing.. Looks like fun, it must be said! Edited by Royal Jelly on Friday 10th September 07:03

Tin Hat said: I can see why some cannot watch him, but he is clearly having fun and it’s all nicely upbeat - I certainly find him more watchable than Jayemm who seems overwhelmed with the desire to fulfil the role of a critic ( unless someone has been indulgent enough to lend him their car, at which point the critique hat is duly popped back in the box ) Coincidentally, they both appear to have used a lost property department to clothe themselves and I am further at a loss as to why anyone would buy a purple car with gold wheels, but he is clearly an enthusiast and he drives competently with diligence snd respect for those who are on the track at the same time. Edited by Tin Hat on Thursday 9th September 22:37 I like that colour/wheel combo

We all know a GT$ with either gearbox is a wonderful thing, but why would anyone watch or listen to or pay any attention to Shmee or JWW or the likes?? they re attrocious narcissists of the highest order.

Tin Hat said: I can see why some cannot watch him, but he is clearly having fun and it’s all nicely upbeat - I certainly find him more watchable than Jayemm who seems overwhelmed with the desire to fulfil the role of a critic ( unless someone has been indulgent enough to lend him their car, at which point the critique hat is duly popped back in the box ) Coincidentally, they both appear to have used a lost property department to clothe themselves and I am further at a loss as to why anyone would buy a purple car with gold wheels , but he is clearly an enthusiast and he drives competently with diligence snd respect for those who are on the track at the same time. The car was originally white with Aurum wheels, he's had it wrapped in that purple and like Royal Jelly said above I think the colour combo works

isaldiri said: Doesn't really change the point that dashobbit was making though. Track isn't really relevant - irrespective of track, at higher speeds stuff does happen at a rate that definitely eats away at available 'brain space' so to speak. Of course, but I was referring to similar speeds which I guess I should have made clear for the pedantic PH crowd

Twinfan said: isaldiri said: Doesn't really change the point that dashobbit was making though. Track isn't really relevant - irrespective of track, at higher speeds stuff does happen at a rate that definitely eats away at available 'brain space' so to speak. Of course, but I was referring to similar speeds which I guess I should have made clear for the pedantic PH crowd Well I don't know if I'm being over pedantic or you are being over defensive about the how easy or otherwise your perception of driving a dual clutch car is. My reference is your post saying 'you felt the car seemed to have lost character and seemed too easy'. Dashobbit (correctly imo) pointed out that if that was the case then one could probably have been driving faster to make things feel less easy. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume your friend wasn't driving slower to be at manual gearbox times just for the sake of it to feel the car was easier to drive.

isaldiri said: Well I don't know if I'm being over pedantic yep, very much so. PDK is easier to drive, it's as simple as that, E-diff included to make it easier again at any speed road or track. that's why Schools offer Auto only tests as driving stick is too f4*king hard for some to learn.

Didn’t think either had an E-Dif What’s stick man?

DavidLankaster said: yep, very much so. PDK is easier to drive, it's as simple as that, E-diff included to make it easier again at any speed road or track. that's why Schools offer Auto only tests as driving stick is too f4*king hard for some to learn. what utter B*llocks

isaldiri said: Well I don't know if I'm being over pedantic or you are being over defensive about the how easy or otherwise your perception of driving a dual clutch car is. I think you might be. PDK is far, far easier to drive fast, obviously. The argument from some that things happen quicker because you’re going faster is laughable. You’re going ‘slightly faster’, not twice the speed Both iterations of gearbox are among the best available, but it’s abundantly clear that some will prefer one over the other. The experience is quite different. Engagement being the favour of the manual, and either daily-use ease or track pack being the bonus of the PDK. Edited by Royal Jelly on Friday 10th September 22:16

Royal Jelly said: I think you might be. PDK is far, far easier to drive fast, obviously. The argument from some that things happen quicker because you’re going faster is laughable. You’re going ‘slightly faster’, not twice the speed Well, laughable or not and speaking for myself only obviously so perhaps it's different for you but 'things happening quicker' is something I definitely find to be an issue when attempting to be driving a bit faster. It certainly isn't a case of needing to go at 'twice the speed' either. For example, I am reasonably confident I can fairly consistently do laps at say a second and definitely a second and a half slower laps than a 'best effort' lap where I am having to concentrate very hard much more easily and that's what i mean as 'things happening faster' at higher speeds. while doing the same laptime at a track would (obviously for most) be easier in a dual clutch than manual, if one were to drive say a second or two per lap faster than in said manual that difference in 'being easier' would narrow. A lot. And I'm really not attempting to be suggesting one gearbox is better than another either as I don't have a particular beef either way.

kmpowell said: (Warning... Shmee content) Thanks for that, I've seen more than enough gurning for one week...

isaldiri said: Well, laughable or not and speaking for myself only obviously so perhaps it's different for you but 'things happening quicker' is something I definitely find to be an issue when attempting to be driving a bit faster. It certainly isn't a case of needing to go at 'twice the speed' either. For example, I am reasonably confident I can fairly consistently do laps at say a second and definitely a second and a half slower laps than a 'best effort' lap where I am having to concentrate very hard much more easily and that's what i mean as 'things happening faster' at higher speeds. while doing the same laptime at a track would (obviously for most) be easier in a dual clutch than manual, if one were to drive say a second or two per lap faster than in said manual that difference in 'being easier' would narrow. A lot. And I'm really not attempting to be suggesting one gearbox is better than another either as I don't have a particular beef either way. I’m not entirely sure I follow what you’re saying, but it doesn’t matter. We’re all different. For me, a ‘max effort’ lap in a manual would be easy for me to beat in a PDK. Anyhow, this has the potential to drift. No beef here. I think the Cayman manual is an absolute peach, and I wouldn’t swap it for a PDK, in no small part because of what I use the car for. The PDK is also brilliant, and there’s little wonder why they outsell manuals. To me it’s as binary as the Boxster or Cayman thread. If you want a convertible, buy the Boxster. If you want a manual (and I suspect most will know that they do), then don’t get the PDK! Just like that thread, both options are excellent.

Royal Jelly said: I’m not entirely sure I follow what you’re saying, but it doesn’t matter. We’re all different. For me, a ‘max effort’ lap in a manual would be easy for me to beat in a PDK. And I'm just attempting (clearly rather badly) to point out one would likely find a 'max effort' lap in a dual clutch fairly similar in difficulty to drive as a 'max effort' lap in a manual. One would in both cases be attempting to drive each car as quickly as possible irrespective of the difference in absolute pace and that wouldn't be 'easy' in either case.

Charlie_1 said: hat utter B*llocks Go on ?

isaldiri said: And I'm just attempting (clearly rather badly) to point out one would likely find a 'max effort' lap in a dual clutch fairly similar in difficulty to drive as a 'max effort' lap in a manual. One would in both cases be attempting to drive each car as quickly as possible irrespective of the difference in absolute pace and that wouldn't be 'easy' in either case. I find it very hard you can say this ! the manual cars driven by Pro's on track can just about do the same lap times if not the same at some tracks. to do that you need a lot more skill to pilot the manual to match the PDK track time and there is a lot more to do under braking in the manual. https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os watch from 2 minutes the chat about PDK. to quote Randy "I hate that PDK" it gives every one the skills to drive like a pro, why you keep saying a manual is easy as PDK is just odd. the next line is "you just put in in Auto and it does every thing I would do perfectly"

DavidLankaster said: I find it very hard you can say this ! the manual cars driven by Pro's on track can just about do the same lap times if not the same at some tracks. to do that you need a lot more skill to pilot the manual to match the PDK track time and there is a lot more to do under braking in the manual. https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os watch from 2 minutes the chat about PDK. to quote Randy "I hate that PDK" it gives every one the skills to drive like a pro, why you keep saying a manual is easy as PDK is just odd. the next line is "you just put in in Auto and it does every thing I would do perfectly" And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in". Whats this "Pilot s te" that you mention?

Melvynr said: And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in". you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-)

DavidLankaster said: you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-) Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference. What I see on this blog is a few people thinking the manual is the be-all and end-all of GT motors, especially coming to resale value which is nonsense. As far as driving fast goes, I drive to my limits and not the limits of the car and it does not matter to me if a guy overtakes me in a manual, he's prob a better driver than I am at speed. The manual box in these 991 GT cars looks excellent, nice short throw with a stiff spring. Enjoy it

DavidLankaster said: Melvynr said: And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in". you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-) You brake later in a PDK, because there’s less to do It seems to be an issue that’s getting conflated with subjective opinions about manual v PDK Facts: - PDK is faster - PDK means less to do for any driver, so braking can be done later - for a non-racing driver, the marginal difference between PDK and manual is greater because only the best drivers will be able to do as much during a braking zone, as quickly, as a computer can I have both manuals and PDK for track. I chose PDK for the GT4 because I wanted to go faster in relative safety I use manual cars for UK tracks purely out of preference, but a PDK derivative of any car would be faster

There’s no wrong answers on choice of gearbox. It’s purely a personal preference thing. That said, it’s objectively easier to set faster lap times with a PDK box.

Melvynr said: Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference. Launch control is the primaey reason PDK is quicker to accelerate from standing. Once rolling, there's very little in it between both gearboxes. In fact, if you look at the stats for the GT4 from Porsche, the manual car starts to claw back time if the drag race continues.

dashobbit said: You brake later in a PDK, because there’s less to do Not sure I agree with this. I think the main reason PDK is quicker and easier to lap with is because it gives you the same gear change, every gear change (no human error) and the consistency of speed of the change keeps the car more settled by minimising additional weight transfer from the charge in addition to that given via braking.

Twinfan said: Melvynr said: Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference. Launch control is the primaey reason PDK is quicker to accelerate from standing. Once rolling, there's very little in it between both gearboxes. In fact, if you look at the stats for the GT4 from Porsche, the manual car starts to claw back time if the drag race continues. Yes, that is one of the reasons. Also, the car as you say does not become unbalanced in a shift. These pro drivers you see on the likes of the Ring , also use the manual option while in sport auto as well, you can hear the odd change bounce off the limiter as you can gain a small bit of speed with the extra revs manual mode gives that auto mode. I also like the way you can modulate the brakes to change gear for you when tramping on. Both are great boxes and down to personal preference.

It's got nothing to do with manual mode or auto mode.

Twinfan said: It's got nothing to do with manual mode or auto mode. What hasnt?

Twinfan said: dashobbit said: You brake later in a PDK, because there’s less to do Not sure I agree with this. I think the main reason PDK is quicker and easier to lap with is because it gives you the same gear change, every gear change (no human error) and the consistency of speed of the change keeps the car more settled by minimising additional weight transfer from the charge in addition to that given via braking. You do brake later in a PDK. The traces prove this, and it is easy to see why… You have a theoretical optimum braking zone of a specific distance Unless you can brake optimally with one hand on the wheel and heel+toe as you down shift, it’s always going to be a longer braking zone with a manual than a PDK This discussion seems to be diverging, so to clarify the point I was making: - PDKs are faster (more torque from extra gear plus computer shifts quicker than a person), plus as I mentioned, you can brake later - PDKs are safer. Braking and turning and changing gear with two hands on the wheel is safer than having one hand on the wheel - at the ring, for me, I wanted to be able to go faster with as much relative safety as possible. Hence I chose the PDK, as it is objectively true that the PDK is faster, and objectively true it’s safer The subjective element doesn’t come into this for my use case The only point I would make is that anyone buying a GT4 for the road is unable to legally use the car to anything like it’s potential. Short shifting seems somewhat pointless to me Thus it’s a track car. Using the car on track with a manual to be more ‘engaging’ … for me, that’s an odd choice, as a much more engaging experience would be had on track from something like a caterham or atom I bought one as they are perfectly comfortable to drive 500mi to the Nurburgring, go round it as many times as you like without breaking, then drive back. I wouldn’t buy one for any other reason as for me, there are more appropriate cars out there for other reasons

dashobbit said: You do brake later in a PDK. The traces prove this, and it is easy to see why… You have a theoretical optimum braking zone of a specific distance Unless you can brake optimally with one hand on the wheel and heel+toe as you down shift, it’s always going to be a longer braking zone with a manual than a PDK This discussion seems to be diverging, so to clarify the point I was making: - PDKs are faster (more torque from extra gear plus computer shifts quicker than a person), plus as I mentioned, you can brake later - PDKs are safer. Braking and turning and changing gear with two hands on the wheel is safer than having one hand on the wheel - at the ring, for me, I wanted to be able to go faster with as much relative safety as possible. Hence I chose the PDK, as it is objectively true that the PDK is faster, and objectively true it’s safer The subjective element doesn’t come into this for my use case The only point I would make is that anyone buying a GT4 for the road is unable to legally use the car to anything like it’s potential. Short shifting seems somewhat pointless to me Thus it’s a track car. Using the car on track with a manual to be more ‘engaging’ … for me, that’s an odd choice, as a much more engaging experience would be had on track from something like a caterham or atom I bought one as they are perfectly comfortable to drive 500mi to the Nurburgring, go round it as many times as you like without breaking, then drive back. I wouldn’t buy one for any other reason as for me, there are more appropriate cars out there for other reasons If 2 identical GT3s , one a manual and the other pdk are travelling at 130mph in 4th gear coming into a 115mph max corner, the braking zone is exactly the same with no car being able to change down a gear? You can legally use the full speed on German Autobaans and other places if you have the balls to do so.

Melvynr said: If 2 identical GT3s , one a manual and the other pdk are travelling at 130mph in 4th gear coming into a 115mph max corner, the braking zone is exactly the same with no car being able to change down a gear? You can legally use the full speed on German Autobaans and other places if you have the balls to do so. The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match PDK: brakes, pulls fingers Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels But average drivers… no chance

dashobbit said: The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match PDK: brakes, pulls fingers Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels But average drivers… no chance I have thought it through, in the example i gave you, if you changed down into 3rd the engine would drop out of the manual and pdk wouldn't allow a lower shift into 3rd. Both cars are braking in the same place to maintain 115mph. No need to trail brake in my example, a quick dab and that's that. You do know these manual gearboxes in the 991 and up are semi auto as well, Porsche had lots of complaints from the twinkle toe desert wellie wearing brigade to make the manual better to change gear, hence, the rev-match and flat shift function.

Melvynr said: dashobbit said: The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match PDK: brakes, pulls fingers Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels But average drivers… no chance I have thought it through, in the example i gave you, if you changed down into 3rd the engine would drop out of the manual and pdk wouldn't allow a lower shift into 3rd. Both cars are braking in the same place to maintain 115mph. No need to trail brake in my example, a quick dab and that's that. You do know these manual gearboxes in the 991 and up are semi auto as well, Porsche had lots of complaints from the twinkle toe desert wellie wearing brigade to make the manual better to change gear, hence, the rev-match and flat shift function. All I can do is offer to show you sometime. So if you have w manual (I assume?) and do TDs, it’s easy enough to do

dashobbit said: All I can do is offer to show you sometime. So if you have w manual (I assume?) and do TDs, it’s easy enough to do Unfortunately, I don't do track days and the last heel and toe I did were in an Anglia with a 1600 engine.

Melvynr said: Unfortunately, I don't do track days and the last heel and toe I did were in an Anglia with a 1600 engine. Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina. Oh, hold on a second ...

dashobbit said: The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match Two words - auto blip. Which can help make things easier in a manual car. There's no reason why a manual driver can't brake at the same point as a PDK driver and have the exact same line at the same speed if they're skilled enough, with or without auto blip engaged. But this is the crux of the discussion - it's much easier to do it in a PDK car and with greater consistency lap after lap. However, the PDK car cannot brake later as a general rule as far as I see it.

PDK driver can afford to brake later because they don’t have to get all the braking and gear change done before the corner entry. In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle. Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car. With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in.

Slippydiff said: Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina. Oh, hold on a second ... Used to have some fun with them, 5 or 6 of us messing about.Used to look epic with rolled arches and paint job and like the ant hill mob with us all sat in it.

Slippydiff said: Melvynr said: Unfortunately, I don't do track days and the last heel and toe I did were in an Anglia with a 1600 engine. Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina. Oh, hold on a second ... One mate has a 105E with a 454 CI big block in it and another mate in his 100E has a 572 CI big block in it. Both auto's though

Melvynr said: Used to have some fun with them, 5 or 6 of us messing about.Used to look epic with rolled arches and paint job and like the ant hill mob with us all sat in it. So which is you Melv

SRT Hellcat said: One mate has a 105E with a 454 CI big block in it and another mate in his 100E has a 572 CI big block in it. Both auto's though Well with that many cee cees in an Anglia, I’m not convinced you even need a gearbox, let alone a manual one

here is the same driver in the manual car BTW posting just about the same time as the PDK car. so you can see where each car is faster or slower and the greater work load difference for the driver. https://youtu.be/awuvYmTbhuM manual https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os PDK no need to talk resale, or which box is better, neither are in question. it was the skill needed to drive a manual is MUCH higher if you want to post a PDK leveling lap time. I think after 14 miles the ring time gap is 2 seconds, PDK faster of course, and above the PDK was 2/10th faster over all. what we do know is a PDK gains 2/10th every gear change and as there are many changes on a lap the Manual cars making up for it in other area's if you have the skill to get the best from it. if you just said to people 0-100 the PDK is faster you miss the point, as then the PDK should lap many many seconds faster than manuals but they don't. Every 5 changes of gear should equal 1 second faster and that's not the case. At the end of the day one is far easier to drive than the other if you aim for the same lap time. Why that upsets owners of each Box is just odd unless you have an inferiority complex on the choices you made. Edited by DavidLankaster on Monday 13th September 15:10

TDT said: PDK driver can afford to brake later because they don’t have to get all the braking and gear change done before the corner entry. In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle. Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car. With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in. This ^^ Changing gear takes whatever it does - 0.5s say. Also involves moving your hand, having hand off the wheel etc PDK does it quicker and with minimal faff, so as a result you can brake later I wish I could find the traces now as I'm sure this comparison has been done - same type of car, same driver, same track

Slippydiff said: So which is you Melv You daft kunt

Melvynr said: You daft kunt There's only one response to that ...

Slippydiff said: There's only one response to that ... Magic buddy