OPC SERVICE v INDIE - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Has the OPC/Indie service cost gap closed? Recently quoted £960 v £800….who is going to leave/ruin Full Main Dealer Service History for £160?

anonymous said: [redacted] ……..thanks…….am I right?

Decent indy stamps carry the same weight as an OPC to anyone with a clue, and most of the time do a better job. Your indy does seem expensive. I’m being quoted a £600 difference for an 8-year.

Bought a 1 owner from new 996 4s with full OPC and went to an indie as the car hasd a long list of issues. I much prefer the indie as a more persoanlised service. FYI i use 9excellence and have done for 3 years

981SPYGANG said: Has the OPC/Indie service cost gap closed? Recently quoted £960 v £800….who is going to leave/ruin Full Main Dealer Service History for £160? You'd be surprised at the number of Porsche owners with cars under warranty who quite laughably would willingly devalue their cars by £thousands with major warranty issues and implication too simply to save a couple of hundred quid. You only have to read the current ongoing BMW thread about a mainstream BMW which was merely serviced slightly late WITHIN the main dealer network subsequently having problems claiming on the warranty to realise the obvious issues. Never ceases to amaze. The mind truly boggles.

Royal Jelly said: Decent indy stamps carry the same weight as an OPC to anyone with a clue, and most of the time do a better job. Your indy does seem expensive. I’m being quoted a £600 difference for an 8-year. Appreciate some Indies might be better, re the Indy stamps carrying the same weight by your admission you have to rely on others (potential buyers) having a clue. I’m certainly pretty clueless when it comes to Indies. £600 or guessing 40% saving on an 8 year is kinda where I think it should be. 16.6% on a 6 year not so much.

garypotter said: Bought a 1 owner from new 996 4s with full OPC and went to an indie as the car hasd a long list of issues. I much prefer the indie as a more persoanlised service. FYI i use 9excellence and have done for 3 years Not familiar with them but thanks and happy driving.

av185 said: 981SPYGANG said: Has the OPC/Indie service cost gap closed? Recently quoted £960 v £800….who is going to leave/ruin Full Main Dealer Service History for £160? You'd be surprised at the number of Porsche owners with cars under warranty who quite laughably would willingly devalue their cars by £thousands with major warranty issues and implication too simply to save a couple of hundred quid. You only have to read the current ongoing BMW thread about a mainstream BMW which was merely serviced slightly late WITHIN the main dealer network subsequently having problems claiming on the warranty to realise the obvious issues. Never ceases to amaze. The mind truly boggles. Probably not as passionate about ownership and live more for the day/don’t consider the consequences at the time. I can see why people go down the indie route if it’s an older car, the savings are substantial, and it does not have a warranty.

av185 said: You'd be surprised at the number of Porsche owners with cars under warranty who quite laughably would willingly devalue their cars by £thousands with major warranty issues and implication too simply to save a couple of hundred quid. You only have to read the current ongoing BMW thread about a mainstream BMW which was merely serviced slightly late WITHIN the main dealer network subsequently having problems claiming on the warranty to realise the obvious issues. Never ceases to amaze. The mind truly boggles. The Porsche after sales business model rests on making the Porsche warranty an essential component of Porsche ownership. Not that Porsche is unique in this but perhaps it is the most overt. Therefore Porsche use any and every lever available to it to “persuade” owners to pay money to Porsche rather than a third party under pain of losing warranty protection if they don’t. They have other tricks too: last year I put my Panamera in for a minor service at W London - a one day job. Day 1 was spent doing an unsolicited “health check” - finding things for me to spend money on (eg a new driver’s door window switch unit at £324 because one window lifter had lost its fingernail trimming-sized chrome plastic edge). It’s pretty unappealing. If one is prepared to forego the Porsche warranty, things become more straightforward and choice opens up. If, when you buy your Porsche, you expect to sell it with some Porsche warranty attached to it then Porsche servicing is obviously very important. If on the other hand, when you buy, you do so without a Porsche warranty or intending to let it lapse at some point, Porsche servicing is or will become less important. OP: there are quite a few respected Porsche Indy service centres. Google plus forums will identify them pretty rapidly.

Newer car under warranty? Wouldn't risk losing the warranty. Older car? Indie.

Hoofy said: Newer car under warranty? Wouldn't risk losing the warranty. Older car? Indie. Agreed. Hoofy just admiring your 21 year 4 month almost 10 posts per day commitment to PH Forums!

I'm not extending my 718 GT4's warranty but will be using my OPC for servicing for the stamps in the book in case I ever have to sell it. They're worth any additional cost on a car <10yrs old IMHO. For repairs I'll probably use my Indie unless it's something I think my OPC would be better at dealing with. So I don't think it's as simple as OPC for warranty, Indie for everyone else.

981SPYGANG said: Hoofy said: Newer car under warranty? Wouldn't risk losing the warranty. Older car? Indie. Agreed. Hoofy just admiring your 21 year 4 month almost 10 posts per day commitment to PH Forums! It highlights how I can't do split replies so I just hit reply for each post I want to reply to.

Twinfan said: I'm not extending my 718 GT4's warranty but will be using my OPC for servicing for the stamps in the book in case I ever have to sell it. They're worth any additional cost on a car <10yrs old IMHO. For repairs I'll probably use my Indie unless it's something I think my OPC would be better at dealing with. So I don't think it's as simple as OPC for warranty, Indie for everyone else. True there is a ‘middle ground’…….I’ve done the same, not extended but OPC for stamps/history…..6 years old.

My experience is that work at Indies gets expensive as well. And for servicing it is so straightforward that getting the OPC stamp may well be worth it. I had an astonishing (large) quote for some work from one of the very well regarded indies on here. Perhaps it might be 15-20% cheaper than an indie, but that's not worth it if you want to keep the stamps. And not having the stamps can only reduce the market of buyers. There's many more potential buyers not in the know than in the know as it were.

Always found my OPCs match any quote given as long as reasonable. They need the business as much as anyone else. Really is a no brainer for newer stuff as others have confirmed. Take say 2 identical 4 year Porsches one with a full OPC history the other with part OPC history part indie, wonder which one has the higher value would sell quickest which history would be essential for 99.9 % of buyers and which one would be shunned by most OPCs and punted through the auctions for the very reasons listed. The gap widens even further for more specialist/GT cars and for obvious reasons.

av185 said: Always found my OPCs match any quote given as long as reasonable. They need the business as much as anyone else. Really is a no brainer for newer stuff as others have confirmed. Take say 2 identical 4 year Porsches one with a full OPC history the other with part OPC history part indie, wonder which one has the higher value would sell quickest which history would be essential for 99.9 % of buyers and which one would be shunned by most OPCs and punted through the auctions for the very reasons listed. The gap widens even further for more specialist/GT cars and for obvious reasons. Thanks good to know and yes agreed on the history.

BertBert said: My experience is that work at Indies gets expensive as well. And for servicing it is so straightforward that getting the OPC stamp may well be worth it. I had an astonishing (large) quote for some work from one of the very well regarded indies on here. Perhaps it might be 15-20% cheaper than an indie, but that's not worth it if you want to keep the stamps. And not having the stamps can only reduce the market of buyers. There's many more potential buyers not in the know than in the know as it were. No work on these cars is cheap and see why people would choose indie for an older car. No right or wrong and each to their own but for me personally I prefer OPC to maintain history.

Hoofy said: 981SPYGANG said: Hoofy said: Newer car under warranty? Wouldn't risk losing the warranty. Older car? Indie. Agreed. Hoofy just admiring your 21 year 4 month almost 10 posts per day commitment to PH Forums! It highlights how I can't do split replies so I just hit reply for each post I want to reply to. Was thinking you had a bit of a problem

981SPYGANG said: Hoofy said: 981SPYGANG said: Hoofy said: Newer car under warranty? Wouldn't risk losing the warranty. Older car? Indie. Agreed. Hoofy just admiring your 21 year 4 month almost 10 posts per day commitment to PH Forums! It highlights how I can't do split replies so I just hit reply for each post I want to reply to. Was thinking you had a bit of a problem Don't we all? Half serious - I think if my post rate dropped, that would indicate that I'm in a job where I couldn't sit my fat arse at my desk posting crap on PH ie a bit of a problem. Edited by Hoofy on Wednesday 23 February 12:40

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I'm not going to name & shame, but just had my Cayenne S diesel OPC serviced. Left it for a week while we were away for half term. Went to start it and the oil warning light came on. No leaks anywhere. They initially told me I needed to pay for it to be recovered to them (about 80 miles) as it was a breakdown! I asked to speak to the DP who to be fair was very good. Car recovered at their expense the same day. Guess what? They'd charged me £170 for oil they'd OMMITTED to put in the engine!! Now filled up and car on its way back to me. But WTF?? If they can charge for oil and sign off the service without actually replacing the oil they drained out in the first place, I know where I'll be getting the service done next time. I wonder what would have happened if I'd had a warranty claim for a new engine? Simply mind boggling!

Am I right in thinking that as long as genuine Porsche parts are used, along with recommended oil etc, any garage can service a Porsche and the warranty stays in tact. Not 100% on this, or if the warranty (original manufacturer or Porsche extended) is different….

Mankers said: Am I right in thinking that as long as genuine Porsche parts are used, along with recommended oil etc, any garage can service a Porsche and the warranty stays in tact. Not 100% on this, or if the warranty (original manufacturer or Porsche extended) is different…. Original yes, extended no. Is how I understood it, happy to be corrected though.

GTSjohn said: I'm not going to name & shame, but just had my Cayenne S diesel OPC serviced. Left it for a week while we were away for half term. Went to start it and the oil warning light came on. No leaks anywhere. They initially told me I needed to pay for it to be recovered to them (about 80 miles) as it was a breakdown! I asked to speak to the DP who to be fair was very good. Car recovered at their expense the same day. Guess what? They'd charged me £170 for oil they'd OMMITTED to put in the engine!! Now filled up and car on its way back to me. But WTF?? If they can charge for oil and sign off the service without actually replacing the oil they drained out in the first place, I know where I'll be getting the service done next time. I wonder what would have happened if I'd had a warranty claim for a new engine? Simply mind boggling! How did it get to wherever you tried to start it from the OPC? Was it driven with no oil?

Tomanybikes said: How did it get to wherever you tried to start it from the OPC? Was it driven with no oil? Curious on this, too. If it needed recovering, it sounds like they’d delivered it home? Even if they put it on a flatbed, it would’ve been driven off?

anonymous said: [redacted] Exactly. I’d be livid.

Mankers said: Am I right in thinking that as long as genuine Porsche parts are used, along with recommended oil etc, any garage can service a Porsche and the warranty stays in tact. Not 100% on this, or if the warranty (original manufacturer or Porsche extended) is different…. In theory yes as long as the 'garage' is VAT registered. This has been covered before and the main problem is it gives any warranty claim obvious wiggle room e.g. whether the correct oil has been used in the past which may or may not have contributed to a particular engine issue later on.

av185 said: In theory yes as long as the 'garage' is VAT registered. This has been covered before and the main problem is it gives any warranty claim obvious wiggle room e.g. whether the correct oil has been used in the past which may or may not have contributed to a particular engine issue later on. Does that hold true for original and extended? E.g. 6 year old Porsche, extended warranty, take it to RPM for servicing, all OEM stuff, warranty still good? Apologies for asking a question that has been asked a million times before, but every time this question is asked people respond with what they think the answer is and it muddies the waters.

david-j8694 said: av185 said: In theory yes as long as the 'garage' is VAT registered. This has been covered before and the main problem is it gives any warranty claim obvious wiggle room e.g. whether the correct oil has been used in the past which may or may not have contributed to a particular engine issue later on. Does that hold true for original and extended? E.g. 6 year old Porsche, extended warranty, take it to RPM for servicing, all OEM stuff, warranty still good? Apologies for asking a question that has been asked a million times before, but every time this question is asked people respond with what they think the answer is and it muddies the waters. I would take the view that it depends on numerous factors not least your overall relationship and any goodwill with your OPC etc. Obviously the extended warranty is different to the official Porsche warranty and it is all very well for those trotting out the old chestnut 'as long as the car has official parts used and fitted at the time of servicing by my indie the warranty remains intact' but there is clearly ambiguity and wiggle room to get out of the warranty e.g. have the correct procedures been undertaken before you even start on the correct oil/parts etc etc being used so you really are playing Russian roulette with your expensive p and j and in a big way too should a claim be rejected often when push comes to shove so I would reiterate my previous point i.e. ask yourself is it really worth it for the potential hassle involved including devaluing the car in the process to save a measly few hundred quid.

2c being the key clause there. If you're playing with Porsche's ball, and using their extended warranty scheme, play by their rules i.e. OPC servicing. I think many people want to both have their cake and eat it, but that's not how life works!

Tomanybikes said: How did it get to wherever you tried to start it from the OPC? Was it driven with no oil? Not no oil. It had 1.2 litres in it according to the reading - and oddly the oil warning light didn't come on when I drove back from the service. I suspect because the 1.2 litres in the system hadn't had chance to settle to the bottom and was swilling around the engine the sensor couldn't get a true reading. That's why after the car standing for a week, the sensor got a true reading. I may of course not understand how the sensor works...... Edited by GTSjohn on Thursday 24th February 16:55

GTSjohn said: Not no oil. It had 1.2 litres in it according to the reading - and oddly the oil warning light didn't come on when I drove back from the service. I suspect because the 1.2 litres in the system hadn't had chance to settle to the bottom and was swilling around the engine the sensor couldn't get a true reading. That's why after the car standing for a week, the sensor got a true reading. I may of course not understand how the sensor works...... Edited by GTSjohn on Thursday 24th February 16:55 Amazed that you managed to drive 80 miles with only 1.2 ltr of oil in a Porsche diesel engine. Even though the engine was still running (not sure how) you would think that running for 80 miles with basically no oil would have started to wear some parts in the engine. Maybe there is no lasting damage but what did Porsche say about any potential wear to the engine when running with low oil ? Did you get something in writing in the likelihood anything fails in the near future ?

Garage will say nothing to see here it’s fine no problem mate, Porsche extended warranty says warranty claim failed due to wiper blades not Porsche approved or you put the wrong air in the tyres or any bloody thing as not to pay out.

I went indy ever since I started doing track days and then club racing. Got fed up of OPC service "advisors". It was never about cost for me - it was about speaking to the expert who was actually taking my engine apart and putting it back together. I had zero interest in all the bullsh/t.

Harris_I said: I went indy ever since I started doing track days and then club racing. Got fed up of OPC service "advisors". You get good ones, you get bad ones, but what annoys me is their staff turnover. It's easy to get favours when you build up relationships, but then they leave and after that, it's like a revolving door with new staff every time I go in.

GTSjohn said: Tomanybikes said: How did it get to wherever you tried to start it from the OPC? Was it driven with no oil? Not no oil. It had 1.2 litres in it according to the reading - and oddly the oil warning light didn't come on when I drove back from the service. I suspect because the 1.2 litres in the system hadn't had chance to settle to the bottom and was swilling around the engine the sensor couldn't get a true reading. That's why after the car standing for a week, the sensor got a true reading. I may of course not understand how the sensor works...... Edited by GTSjohn on Thursday 24th February 16:55 Amazed and slightly concerning oil light did not come on!

I’d be staggered if there isn’t lasting engine damage to a Cayenne diesel being driven with 1.2l of oil.

I’d want a 3 year engine warrantee foc

Fair to say the mechanic will never do that again. A discounted future service or some sort of goodwill gesture from OPC should be forthcoming.

jimbo761 said: av185 said: david-j8694 said: av185 said: In theory yes as long as the 'garage' is VAT registered. This has been covered before and the main problem is it gives any warranty claim obvious wiggle room e.g. whether the correct oil has been used in the past which may or may not have contributed to a particular engine issue later on. Does that hold true for original and extended? E.g. 6 year old Porsche, extended warranty, take it to RPM for servicing, all OEM stuff, warranty still good? Apologies for asking a question that has been asked a million times before, but every time this question is asked people respond with what they think the answer is and it muddies the waters. I would take the view that it depends on numerous factors not least your overall relationship and any goodwill with your OPC etc. Obviously the extended warranty is different to the official Porsche warranty and it is all very well for those trotting out the old chestnut 'as long as the car has official parts used and fitted at the time of servicing by my indie the warranty remains intact' but there is clearly ambiguity and wiggle room to get out of the warranty e.g. have the correct procedures been undertaken before you even start on the correct oil/parts etc etc being used so you really are playing Russian roulette with your expensive p and j and in a big way too should a claim be rejected often when push comes to shove so I would reiterate my previous point i.e. ask yourself is it really worth it for the potential hassle involved including devaluing the car in the process to save a measly few hundred quid. Would presume the question is about the extended since most are unlikely to take it out of the network within the first three years despite the block exemption rules. Here's the wording on the last 'extended' one I had from when the question came up on a previous thread. Overall I would agree with AV, as it is effectively an insurance policy. I guess the answer is do you feel 'lucky' as there are plenty of 'get outs': Appreciate the replies, but again we're no closer to an actual concrete answer. When there should be. Porsche know what they will or won't do, I don't understand why they have to be such tw*ts and not outline it in words of one syllable. I'll have to stick with an OPC "just in case".

david-j8694 said: I'll have to stick with an OPC "just in case". And that's precisely why they keep it vague!

david-j8694 said: we're no closer to an actual concrete answer. When there should be. Read the small print. If you're comfortable proving 100% that any claim didn't arise from a non-authorised repairer or parts being used then in theory you should be fine... For me reading the thread about the R8 DCT (£30k for a new one anybody?) would probably steer me towards taking out an official warranty if I had a PDK. Great video on there where they stripped the gearbox, an engineering marvel but a nightmare to fix if it goes wrong. To pay out all that money on the official warranty and then have a claim rejected due to going outside the network is not particularly appealing. But then I am fairly risk averse.

Lexington59 said: To pay out all that money on the official warranty and then have a claim rejected due to going outside the network is not particularly appealing. But then I am fairly risk averse. I think people need to factor in OPC servicing and potentially repairs to the warranty cost, rather than just look at the £660 figure and think it's cheap. It's cheap for a reason It's their game and their ball - play along or play elsewhere. It's an all-or-nothing scenario IMHO

As mentioned before I agree with ‘wiggle’ and relationship with OPC being a big and under estimated factor. A buys his secondhand/new car with warranty from OPC and takes it back there for servicing. On expiry of warranty he extends and OPC continues to maintain car. B buys his secondhand car privately (saves 5-10%) with warranty/extended warranty and takes car to Indie (saves 10-15%) for servicing. Both have same problem with car and return to OPC to get car sorted. A either gets car sorted under warranty or gets a ‘goodwill gesture’ from OPC towards cost as it’s a bit 50/50. (Wear and tear/faulty part) B doesn’t get looked after like customer A and after visits to OPC/phone calls/emails/bit of shouting and getting angry/negative posts on forums ends up paying more £ to get car sorted. You pays your money and you takes your choice/chance…….. Happy Driving Edited by 981SPYGANG on Friday 4th March 09:35

The OPC / Indie question has so many variables depending on the owners intentions with the car and the length of ownership. An owners disposable income also factors which route to go. A general assumption muted by the non porsche community is that Porker owners are minted and therefore its of no consequence. I personally have owned 2 991.1 911's and am currently running a 991.1 RS. The OPC servicing rates have immeasurably increased in recent years. 2017 - 4 year service was circa £1650 2022 - 4 year service is approx. £3000. A number of contributors have mentioned how risk-averse we are ultimately decides our servicing habits. I would agree in as much that OPC will give you minimal sleepless nights. A counter view to this which has also been referenced is an established relationship with an indie can be beneficial if the worst happens mechanically. I would also argue that going down the indie route long term and eventually selling your car through the same indie dealer does minimise the residual hit. For instance JZM and RPM to name just 2. There will be countless owners no doubt who have indie histories and the car has performed faultlessly. Likewise with OPC serviced owners. Its just that one isolated case we may hear on social media etc where the car self destructed and the owner had to sell a kidney to pay for the unwarranted repairs.

Illya Kuryakin said: The OPC / Indie question has so many variables depending on the owners intentions with the car and the length of ownership. An owners disposable income also factors which route to go. A general assumption muted by the non porsche community is that Porker owners are minted and therefore its of no consequence. I personally have owned 2 991.1 911's and am currently running a 991.1 RS. The OPC servicing rates have immeasurably increased in recent years. 2017 - 4 year service was circa £1650 2022 - 4 year service is approx. £3000. A number of contributors have mentioned how risk-averse we are ultimately decides our servicing habits. I would agree in as much that OPC will give you minimal sleepless nights. A counter view to this which has also been referenced is an established relationship with an indie can be beneficial if the worst happens mechanically. I would also argue that going down the indie route long term and eventually selling your car through the same indie dealer does minimise the residual hit. For instance JZM and RPM to name just 2. There will be countless owners no doubt who have indie histories and the car has performed faultlessly. Likewise with OPC serviced owners. Its just that one isolated case we may hear on social media etc where the car self destructed and the owner had to sell a kidney to pay for the unwarranted repairs. Agreed, people have to do what suits them financially and yes length of ownership is a very good point. For a ‘keeper’ and using your figures (4 year/major £3k and 2 year/intermediate ~£1.5k) this equates to £4.5k over 6 years (£750 per year). Think most would consider this reasonable for OPC maintenance of a performance car. If buying to ‘tick a box’ and selling short term then stumping up £3k for an impending service is a bit painful and therefore skipped by some owners.

Twinfan said: Lexington59 said: To pay out all that money on the official warranty and then have a claim rejected due to going outside the network is not particularly appealing. But then I am fairly risk averse. I think people need to factor in OPC servicing and potentially repairs to the warranty cost, rather than just look at the £660 figure and think it's cheap. It's cheap for a reason It's their game and their ball - play along or play elsewhere. It's an all-or-nothing scenario IMHO I'm absolutely fine with that. But they could just say that, then we could decide on whether to categorically break the rules or not. They don't need to be tw*ts and leave it open to interpretation, leaving us to have these pointless discussions. I'ts unnecessary.

anonymous said: [redacted] If it is a respected indy, I’d treat their service history as equal. But if you want a warranty, don’t you need the most recent scheduled service done by an OPC? In which case the saving is negated. Pick the Miami blue one. In all seriousness, the servicing at a respected specialist is at least as good as an OPC. If you want the log stamps from the OPC, go for it. For me, I want the car well looked after, first & foremost. Over a 4 year service cycle (major & minor) I’d rather save the 3200 warranty premium and about 1000 servicing price delta. That covers a fair bit of remedial work at my Indy, while giving me the freedom to make modifications if I so wish. My local specialists are very good and significantly cheaper. If you’re only saving 10-15% then not sure I’d follow the same path. As for the warranty - mine has one, I won’t be renewing it though. It’s a good product, but it’s also a profit generator. I’d rather self-insure. That 4200 saving covers a lot of labour at RPM Knaresborough/Strasse/Revolution. Perhaps it’s worth pointing out that I have a 981 Cayman. There’s a couple of known niggles (PADM) but they’re robust things. I’ve had it for a little while and I know it quite well. If I had new (to me) Turbo S I may feel differently, at least for a while until had more confidence in the car.

anonymous said: [redacted] With a GT car the second OPC service would be the 4 year maintenance. Unlikely to be an indie service but i get your point. Depending on your choice of OPC the other issue is all the sensible mods we love to stick on our cars and the dealership reaction when you turn up with said mods. Aftermarket exhausts, Steel rotors with PCCB's stored in the loft for the next owner etc etc. Alas some OPC's , not all, take a negative view on any modification. ( its such a pain refitting the OEM exhaust before travelling to the dealership ) There are many justifications for OPC exclusively and Indie likewise. If your Porsche is a track toy then the OPC warranty is money in the bank. Their no quibble warranty is one of the best, if not the best brand product available today. Scenario : PDK / Engine CEL failure at Spa or the Nordschleife and its a potentially huge bill.

Illya Kuryakin said: Alas some OPC's , not all, take a negative view on any modification. ( its such a pain refitting the OEM exhaust before travelling to the dealership ) Surely you decide to forfit your warranty when you fit that aftermarket exhaust in the first place? If you're swapping it over between OPC visits then you're essentially committing fraud if you make an engine claim and haven't declared it's been running a different exhaust are you not? Illya Kuryakin said: If your Porsche is a track toy then the OPC warranty is money in the bank. Their no quibble warranty is one of the best, if not the best brand product available today. Scenario : PDK / Engine CEL failure at Spa or the Nordschleife and its a potentially huge bill. It's unfortunate that for improved track use a lot of people modify their cars, therefore the warranty situation becomes trickier. As I keep saying, it's really an all or nothing situation: Want to have a no quibble extended warranty? Do not modify your car and use OPCs for all work. Anything else is likely to result in a royal pain in the backside of arguments and to-ing and fro-ing, along with possible financial disappointment in the event of a claim.

Though I have experienced more servicing / repair "mistakes" with my local OPC than I have accumulated with the variety of well known indies that I have used ... such as those mentioned !! I think the staff turnover in the service department of OPC's is another issue ... the good indies own their businesses, are instinctively concerned for their customers and their cars, and are a major reason why the Porsche Classics market is so strong. Many indies encourage the modification of cars to solve (often deliberate) design limitations by Porsche ... whereas the OPC is really interested in selling you another car (if they will sell you the car you really really want). I am still waiting for my local OPC to prove me wrong and agree to sell me a car (that from my buying history) I would now wish to buy new. I've owned 33 Porsches so far, but only 5 of then new so ... not worthy ? We shall see ...