Official Cayman Suspension Thread. (sponsored by AWE Tuning)

Caymanphiles- I have seen some recent threads about the different suspension types and what is and is not available. I just wanted to get a list together so we are all on the same page. We are warehouse distributors for H&R, Bilstein, and Moton. Hopefully the moderators will sticky this thread for future generations to see. If you have specific questions, post them here! I will do my best to get up to the minute info. I hope this helps everyone. All of these items are available from AWE Tuning. We are updating our site, so if you do not see what you are looking for, email me. [email removed] Click here for the Cayman Suspension Page Here is the breakdown. H&R www.hrsprings.com Sport Springs (54020) 1.4" front and 1.2" rear (with and without PASM) Coilovers (29180-1) 1.2"-2.3" front and .75"-2.0" rear (without PASM) Front Swaybar (70168-2) 24mm non-adjustable Rear Swaybar (71168-2) 22mm adjustable H&R is still working on coilovers for PASM. I will update everyone in this thread when I hear more news. Bilstein www.bilstein.com Sport Shocks Non-PASM (F4-VE3-C220-H0 and F4-VE3-C221-H0) **In Stock** Sport Shocks PASM (F4-VA3-C213-H0 and F4-VE3-C214-H0) **Not Available as of 12/14/06** Heavy Duty Non-PASM (F4-VE3-C218-H0 and F4-VE3-C219-H0) **In Stock** Heavy Duty PASM (F4-VA3-C211-H0 and F4-VA3-C212-H0 **Not Available as of 12/14/06** Coilovers Non-PASM (F4-GM5-C189-H0) Height and Dampening Adjustable Coilovers PASM (F4-GA5-C204-H0) **These have yet to be released. AWE Tuning does have them on order and we are taking preorders. This is a height adjustable coilover kit that will work in conjunction with the OEM PASM. Porsche partnered with Bilstein to develop the OEM PASM suspension system. They have the most experience with the car. I will provide updates in this thread as I get them.** Moton www.motonsuspension.com Cubsport Coilover (M500 052) Remote Cannister Double Adjustable 7 Adjustment Levels for both rebound and compression Able to use various spring rates

Mike, Just so you know I talked to the folks at Bilstein months ago about coming on board as a sponsor and testing the PSS9-PASM (Damptronic) on my car. They have one car in California with it on and items went back to Europe for more testing and they are supposed to be getting me something after the first of the year. You guys want me to drive up to your shop for the install?

If you are not opposed to making the trip, we can work something out. Maybe you can do a write up on our facility as well? Also, is there anyway to sticky this thread for everyone to reference?

Mike, Nice to see your taking the time to help everyone interested in suspension parts. I will kick this off. I decided i want to lower my cayman but i have a few questions. First i want to lower the car mainly for esthetic's purposes BUT i do not want to sacrifice ride quality. Second I have PASM and have read post from other members that just did springs and had PASM failure issues. That is the last thing i want to deal with. Third i don't race my car on a track but i drive it hard every day. Forth in now way do i want to damage any other suspension parts by taking the shortcut route. If you feel that in all honesty just doing springs will do no harm to my above concerns please let me know, but be honest and let me know if should do the complete coil overs instead. Thanks.

Ride quality is subjective. However, I will give you my impression of what an H&R sport spring does. This feedback comes from years of getting in and out of different cars with ALL different types of suspensions. H&R does not publish springs rates, but they say their sport line is about 30% firmer than stock. The ride height is going to be slightly lower than a German spec. car. These springs are designed for street use and some very light track usage. The ride "quality" in my eyes is improved. You will have a car that has a lower stance with less squat and lean. Is it overly firm? No, because it's not designed for track use. It is geared for higher speeds and more aggressive street use. H&R insists on maintaining a certain level of comfort. If you were to take a trip to Germany and drive your Cayman at max speed on the Autobahn, you would understand my point. It would be just too soft for the sustained high speeds. However, if you went to Germany and drove a German spec car, the suspension will feel right at home. You will have more control and less float. This is what H&R is trying to mirror. I hope everyone understood that analogy. Also, we urge that if you are going to change springs you change the shocks as well. Sport shocks (like those from Bilstein) are have compression and rebound valving that is designed to work with a lowered spring with a firmer rate than OEM. You OEM shocks were valved for what is on the car now. Not the best combination. Please keep this in mind. Can you point me to some links? We have yet to install any, but my sources say there are no problems. All I urge is that you consider doing the shocks as well. To me not doing shocks is what will alter ride quality. You are using a shock that is not valved for the added spring rate. The car will have a tendency to pogo down the road. There will be less spring control A sport shock will have the ability to control the oscillation of a heavier spring. More control equal better ride quality. I hope this has helped you along with all of the others. Please let me know if you have further questions, or I was not clear enough with my response. Thanks for reading.

Thanks Mike thats great. I'm going to PM you now so we can talk pricing.

Another way to look at what Mike described so well is that if you lower the car at all you must increase the stiffness of the springs to compensate for the loss in suspension travel. This loss in travel is also another reason to consider different shocks with shorter bodies. Not only are they valved more appropriately to control the spring's movement, they are working in the center of their compression range and not at one extreme end while consistently compressed as a OE shock might be with shorter springs. dw

Another good point I forgot to mention. Thanks, Dave!

And all this works with PASM??

The Sport springs from H&R seem to be working well with the OE PASM shocks from what I read. My guess is that the 30% in rate is small enough that PASM can compensate, and the small drop keeps the spring in a usable range. I haven't disected the tech specs on the OE PASM shocks enough to say anything beyons that. I didn't get PASM since I knew I'd have coilovers on the car before I even got it home from the dealer. but there is a concurrent thread running on the topic below: http://www.planet-9.com/showthread.php?t=6068 dw

You tell us. In your earlier post you mentioned that others were having problems with just springs on PASM cars. I have yet to hear anything like that. I have also already updated my initial post about the Bilstein Sport shocks for PASM. They are currently not available. They are in production and will be sent to California first for testing. I will update when I know more. Bilstein sports for non-PASM cars are in stock and ready to ship. These are available from AWE Tuning.

Mike, before reading your post I was set on the H&R springs. After reading our post it sounds like I will hold out for the PSS setup. I have them on a current BMW and are very happy with the results. Also, my understanding is that the PSS9 will have a spring rate more around 2x stock as opposed to 30%. What about adding the H&R sways now with no other modifications?

The coilovers from all the major manufacturers are generally 50% firmer than an OEM spring. However, the ride quality is as good, if not better, than a spring/shock combo. Let's take H&R for example. When they do a coilover, the shock is designed for the exact spring they will be using for whatever car they are doing a kit for. When Bilstein valves a sport shock, they don't know what spring you will be using, so they have to valve the sport shock generically. This is a better solution than an OEM shock, but coilovers are a matched set. Even though coilovers use a firmer spring, the matched valving can equate to a smoother ride. Hope that made sense... Swaybars can be used with stock or OEM. However I don't recall ever driving a car with stock suspension and aftermarket swaybars. I'm a huge swaybar supporter. They will firm the ride even more, but the added reduction is lean is UNREAL. High speed corners with high g loads are SO much more fun. The car stays flat!

Mike it's a good thing the PASM PSS' are incoming... Great choices there though.:banana:

Alex Do you have any real life experience with the PSS-9 on rough northern California roads? I had H&R springs with stock struts and the setup was unacceptable for street driving up here. http://www.planet-9.com/images/smilies/mad.gif The car would easily lose contact with the road in a corner, if there were any bumps. The set up was fine for smooth roads but not practical for every day driving. Thanks Dave

Dave- I have experience with PSS9's on a variety of cars. We are here in the Northeast and our roads are far from smooth. (crater size potholes) Can you further describe your situation with just the springs? I'm having trouble understanding the loss of contact. What was it that you were feeling? This will better help me determine if coilovers are for you. Thanks!

are both front and rear swaybars needed? or will front swaybar be adequate...

I would advise not doing just a front bar. You do not want to upset the balance of the car.

Hi Mike I am writing again about the PSS 9s. I hope this works. My computer crashed and I was off line for a few days. Hard to describe the loss of contact other than the car seemed to bounce in rough corners and become what I would describe as unstable. It was a bit scary. I am no expert but it seems like the Porsche struts could not properly control the rebound. I was surprosed because others has said that they installed H&R with no trouble. Does this make sense? This car will probably never see a track. Mostlyt for back country roads that are not always (rarely) pristine condition. I am deginately trying to eliminate the 4x4 look. Thanks for any suggestions

PS Typing is not one of my best skills in case you could not tell

How compatible would wheel spacers be with the HR spring/Bilstein shock combo for a non-PASM car? lets say spacers of 5mm front and 7mm rear. or is this a non-issue.

IS THIS A NON-ISSUE?

AFAIK it is a non-issue but if you space the wheels out wide enough and lower the car far enough I could see where they might rub on the outer fender lip, but I have no idea how much "too far" is.

It is a non-issue. You can run 15mm spacers front and rear with OEM 19" wheels and lowering springs with no rubbing what so ever. You can also run 17mm spacers in the rear with 19" OEM wheels, although I'm not sure if anyone has tried it up front.

Mike: I have a Cayman S with PASM, 19" wheels, and I just purchased front/rear H&R sway bars from AWE. Should I have any concern with the stock shocks. I like to ride in the soft PASM setting for daily driving, because the roads here are bad. I use the stiffer setting strictly for track. As I understand from AWE the sway bars will stiffen the suspention a little bit, say 10%. The rear sway bars are adjustable. the recommendation was to start in the soft setting. How will this alter the balance of the car, understeer? Any comments for this setup?

Dave S, I find the Pss9's to be hight compliant at speed on rough roads. I have not had any of the mid corner stability troubles as you describe. and Boston has some pretty bad surfaces....I really like them for agressive street and light track use. dw

Thanks for the recommendation!! Good to hear positive experience. Two nights ago, Sharky made arrangements for me to get a ride in a Cayman with PSS9s. They were set one click off of full firm and I found the ride to better than my stock setup. Looks like this is the way I will go

Hi Dave, so glad you could trekked all the way down to us for that! Too bad you weren't there a few hours earlier as you would have heard another CS with the MillTek (you got to hear the Tubi) etc... and springs. I think on your car setting the dampening to the 4 position would be a good starting point. The lowering spring kits only seem to unsettle the car more than stock. I'd expect nothing less from a spring that's too stiff for an underdamped shock. Pogo, bump steer etc... and generally and uncomfy ride. PSS9s have long been a favorite in the 996C2 world and you really can't go wrong with Bilstein as far as "street" level suspension goes. Having said that we know a few fast CS' that rip around Thunderhill on PSS9s as well. It doesn't have to be Motons...

PSS9's Thanks again to Sharky and James for doing a great job on the install of my PSS9's. The dampers were originally set during the install at 2 all around, but when Performance Art did the alignment, they re-set them to 4 front/2 rear. The car feels really good now. Very balanced and flat, yet compliant. These are night and day vs the H&R spring/stock damper set up.

I was the one that sold those to you! No issues with stock shocks. The sways will be designed to help reduce the understeer. Further adjustments to the rear bar with help even further. Thanks again for your order.

Hey SJCaymanS, our pleasure! Seems like it's a good deal less "floaty" and more compliant than before. We figured you might change from 2 with it being firm heh.... We're pretty much dead-set against springs so I'm with ya!

Thanks Yeah, good call on the settings. And thanks for the referral to Performance Art. They are top notch and will remain my alignment guys from here on out!

You last updated your first post on December 14th. How's your availability now? These are the PSS9's right?

That reminds me I need to contact Bilstein about installing those PASM-Damptronic-PSS9's. More on my to do list when I get home...

Hey K-man S, the word on the street is "SOON"... Just an FYI, these will be called PSS' and not PSS9s. The 9 signifies the number of adjustments. Obviously in PASM equipped cars there will only be sport and normal aka two

Comments on H&R sway bar install: The front installation was a bear. We could not find an easy way to install it. So we took appart quite a bit of the car to be able to install it. Maybe we are missing something. The rear is a piece of cake, 10 minutes once the car is up. Initial impressions, very limited driving,( the rear is on the softer setting). The suspention tightens up a little bit, but its more like better road feel, than it hurts every time I hit an imperfection. The car is more solid no questions about it. It seems to respond to steering input much more readily. Only a quick 10 minute drive, no real hard cornering. I do not know when I will track the car next . That will be the time to really see how the car handles now. :burnout: I will go out tomorrow for some more driving and I will see how it feels on the road. Note: These roll bars are much heavier than the originals. Are the originals hollow?

Wow! The car takes turns a lot better, and I have it on the milder setting for the rear bar. The only problem now is I feel I need a 5 point harness or better seats. I am moving all around the seat and holding on the wheel, or leaning against the door. Oh well it is a slippery slope.

Jaica you are right about the front sway bar installation. It's a bitch. No two ways about it and not really necessary. On all 996/986s it was so much easier but for some reason on the newer cars they decided to route the sway par up and above everything so now you have to remove the crossmember etc....