Porsche 911 Reimagined by Singer - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

https://youtu.be/ogsV9LbDgOM

Prepare for a barrage from the usual haters Overpriced, over-tyred, over-hyped, comedic looks, etc etc

Simply stunning in my opinion. As cool as can be and so desirable. Given the choice between the crop of new hypercars or a Singer, it is a total no brainer. The Singer wins time and time again.

Lovely.

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/yes.gif

how would this compare to the Ruf SCR?

I'd rather have a GT2RS, but then I'm not into anything old or retro...

Slippydiff said: Prepare for a barrage from the usual haters Overpriced, over-tyred, over-hyped, comedic looks, etc etc Are those your thoughts ?

No hating from me, I love it... I hear very few get to drive them... G

Wonderful!

Porsche911R said: Are those your thoughts ? Nope (well possibly the overpriced bit) although I do think/know you could build something just as trick suspension/brakes/steering wise, with a 350-360 hp lump, a six speed 'box and a more RS like focused interior, around a narrowbody shell for £150K, and it would give you 80% of what the Singer offers for less than a third of the price. But I think the way Singer have executed the concept is good from an engineering perspective, I certainly prefer it to what Guntherworks have done with their 993 concept. When the likes of Meaden, Catchpole and Harris eulogise over the Singer, one has to wonder just how good it is. I think for many the idea of a 964 with modern (ish) driving/performance dynamics is a win/win concept brought to fruition. Sure you can buy a hell of lot of nice metal for £500K, but in the right colour, the Singer is so understated, and it's unlikely to ever cause offence, whereas anything else from the usual suspects make you look like you're trying too hard.

It’s the needless hipster gentrification of a timeless classic. Beards are better without oil, coffee is better without a splash of almond milk and 911’s are better without Singer.

The pic above in Grey really shows up the Singer in its best light..Understated and classy without being too OTT IMO.In my case its totally irrelevant as its so far beyond my pay grade it shall remain a dream car. Really like them as long as the colour is right and not too in yer face.

Twinfan said: I'd rather have a GT2RS, but then I'm not into anything old or retro... I found the GT2RS to be too stiff to handle well on the road front end bobbed a lot and the steering wheel was far too thin (oddly), GT3 far better car in my opinion.

deadslow said: how would this compare to the Ruf SCR? Would love to see this comparison some day. I admire what Singer have done wrt to attention to detail and aesthetics but the RUF seems to be the car with more of a nod to the actual engineering bits where the $$ has been spent on improving.

Slippydiff said: Prepare for a barrage from the usual haters Overpriced, over-tyred, over-hyped, comedic looks, etc etc Wasn’t going to say a thing H Interior looks like the inside of Liberace’s handbag, with Lizzo’s rear end. About as ‘classy’ as James Stunt. This however....McQueen’s S for same money....where do I sign.

Love that Singer, it shows the new models to be the true lard arses they have become for one, plus it sounds fabulous. Yes, its over priced, but...... If I had GT3RS money and could be something close, I think I could be tempted..... (not driven a GT3 mind) As I think Ive said before, as a young impressionable petrolhead, I used to walk past Autofarms workshops in Amersham on a daily basis, and they always had something of that ilk on show, so for me, I think the Singer just looks right.

isaldiri said: deadslow said: how would this compare to the Ruf SCR? Would love to see this comparison some day. I admire what Singer have done wrt to attention to detail and aesthetics but the RUF seems to be the car with more of a nod to the actual engineering bits where the $$ has been spent on improving. Spot on re ruf ,mate is having one built at the mo,proper fast,light and classy. Porsche make the best porsche cars!

Robbo66 said: Wasn’t going to say a thing H Interior looks like the inside of Liberace’s handbag, with Lizzo’s rear end. About as ‘classy’ as James Stunt. This however....McQueen’s S for same money....where do I sign. Evening chap, hope you’re well ? Nothing’s perfect, I’m with HC, I’m not a fan of the mirrors either, the exhaust is all wrong too, if they’re trying to ape the styling of an early car, be it an ST or a 2.8 RSR, the silencer and tailpipes should look much closer in design to the original. Taking into account what Singer charge, the silencer should be a custom pressed component formed from inconel, the tailpipes should be further apart, and their ends should look like the originals. This would also require the rear panel to have two small cutouts to provide clearance for tailpipes. Whilst the interiors are beautifully upholstered, they are a tad on the chintzy side. The 964 RS interior is an object lesson in minimalism, I’d spec mine very much along the same lines, albeit with leather on the door cards, dash etc. I’d want all the sound deadening Singer specify, and some much higher quality carpet, but fitted in the same style as the original 964 RS carpets, but with the edges trimmed in leather rather than the vinyl Porsche used. The seatbelt housings would be similar to the OE RS items, but would be covered in stitched leather. The dash clocks would have plain Jane faces and needles. I’d leave the rear arches exactly as they are ( and for what it’s worth, I think they’re far more aesthetically pleasing than the 930 Turbo items, and the 964 Turbo/3.8 RS arches...) There, I said it There’s a host of other stuff I’d change and it improve, but I won’t bore everyone with the details !

Slippydiff said: Robbo66 said: Wasn’t going to say a thing H Interior looks like the inside of Liberace’s handbag, with Lizzo’s rear end. About as ‘classy’ as James Stunt. This however....McQueen’s S for same money....where do I sign. Evening chap, hope you’re well ? Nothing’s perfect, I’m with HC, I’m not a fan of the mirrors either, the exhaust is all wrong too, if they’re trying to ape the styling of an early car, be it an ST or a 2.8 RSR, the silencer and tailpipes should look much closer in design to the original. Taking into account what Singer charge, the silencer should be a custom pressed component formed from inconel, the tailpipes should be further apart, and their ends should look like the originals. This would also require the rear panel to have two small cutouts to provide clearance for tailpipes. Whilst the interiors are beautifully upholstered, they are a tad on the chintzy side. The 964 RS interior is an object lesson in minimalism, I’d spec mine very much along the same lines, albeit with leather on the door cards, dash etc. I’d want all the sound deadening Singer specify, and some much higher quality carpet, but fitted in the same style as the original 964 RS carpets, but with the edges trimmed in leather rather than the vinyl Porsche used. The seatbelt housings would be similar to the OE RS items, but would be covered in stitched leather. The dash clocks would have plain Jane faces and needles. I’d leave the rear arches exactly as they are ( and for what it’s worth, I think they’re far more aesthetically pleasing than the 930 Turbo items, and the 964 Turbo/3.8 RS arches...) There, I said it There’s a host of other stuff I’d change and it improve, but I won’t bore everyone with the details ! I think they look epic in the right spec - but as we’ve already ascertained, I don’t have any taste and like a bit of old tat. In truth though, if I had that sort of money to spend on a car it would be a Carrera GT Edited by RSVP911 on Monday 24th February 22:36

Yellow491 said: Spot on re ruf ,mate is having one built at the mo,proper fast,light and classy. Porsche make the best porsche cars! Evening Paul, I hope things have changed, because from what I’ve seen over the past 10 or so years, Ruf’s now a very different animal to the halcyon days of their fettling the 930/964/993 and 996 Turbo models. The majority of what I’ve seen is expensive tat whose engineering leaves a lot to be desired... To that end I spent many hours poking around the bowels of a CTR3, the “engineering” was truly shocking, all the moreso when you take into account the price they charged for them...

RSVP911 said: I think they look epic in the right spec - but as we’ve already ascertained, I don’t have any taste and like a bit of old tat. In truth though, if I had that sort of money to spend on a car it would be a Carrera GT Edited by RSVP911 on Monday 24th February 22:36 As much as i'd love a Singer in the right colour and spec i'm with you on the CGT..A singer or any other 911 Restomod isn't worth as much as a CGT or even if the Singer was half the price of a CGT..To be able to afford a CGT(or Singer) i'd have to sell all my cars which despite my best man maths doesn't make any sense.

I wonder how much input a Singer customer really gets in choosing spec. Mean there's definitely a particular look and style to them both inside and out. Nice video though and a lot better than the recent Petrolicious film. The car looked and sounded a lot nicer too but some of that might be down to a better quality production. Stunning location too

Yellow491 said: Porsche make the best porsche cars! +1

Aside from the considerable cost, the wait is rather painful. They are rather pretty though.

comfortably numb said: Aside from the considerable cost, the wait is rather painful. They are rather pretty though. I understand the wait is a few years now with a very significant deposit due within a couple of months of order....they’re also a lot more than £500k now landed in the UK. Can’t remember the exact numbers but the 4.0 engine (which almost every car has) is something like $40k and the ceramics over $20k etc Make Ferrari options look cheap! At those numbers a CGT is a way better place to spend your money....but you probably already have one if you’re ordering a Singer.

Cheib said: I understand the wait is a few years now with a very significant deposit due within a couple of months of order....they’re also a lot more than £500k now landed in the UK. Can’t remember the exact numbers but the 4.0 engine (which almost every car has) is something like $40k and the ceramics over $20k etc Make Ferrari options look cheap! At those numbers a CGT is a way better place to spend your money....but you probably already have one if you’re ordering a Singer. I agree with your final point and you are right about the purchasers. I know two of them personally and they have spectacular collections. All beyond my means but happy that someone has the wherewithal to do it.

isaldiri said: deadslow said: how would this compare to the Ruf SCR? Would love to see this comparison some day. I admire what Singer have done wrt to attention to detail and aesthetics but the RUF seems to be the car with more of a nod to the actual engineering bits where the $$ has been spent on improving. How about they throw a Gunther Werks into the mix too?

Cheib said: At those numbers a CGT is a way better place to spend your money....but you probably already have one if you’re ordering a Singer. The best place to spend your money is on the car you want. I don't fancy a CGT, or a GT2, or a '72 RS as a car to live with every day, and I don't have a collection. As something special, smallish, pretty, practical, fun, reliable and not requiring special servicing or esoteric parts, this ticks a lot of boxes. If someone wants to go buy something else, please do - but start another thread and post lots of photos!

comfortably numb said: The best place to spend your money is on the car you want. I don't fancy a CGT, or a GT2, or a '72 RS as a car to live with every day, and I don't have a collection. As something special, smallish, pretty, practical, fun, reliable and not requiring special servicing or esoteric parts, this ticks a lot of boxes. ^ This, as for all the CGT’s undoubted attributes, I’m not a fan, and never have been.

I wonder whether Singer, or a specially created sub-brand would consider producing a simple modified 964, without all the back-dated chintz ? A "period" 964 with all of the Singer carbon bodywork, chassis and engine could be fantastic. I remember some years ago there was a 964 RS that had been turned into a de-spoilered widebody with a fairly lairy Turbo motor and a bespoke leather interior. It wasn't to all tastes, but was quite a machine. I quite like the idea of the Singer upgrades and quality of materials and finish without the back-dating.

Taffy66 said: RSVP911 said: I think they look epic in the right spec - but as we’ve already ascertained, I don’t have any taste and like a bit of old tat. In truth though, if I had that sort of money to spend on a car it would be a Carrera GT Edited by RSVP911 on Monday 24th February 22:36 As much as i'd love a Singer in the right colour and spec i'm with you on the CGT..A singer or any other 911 Restomod isn't worth as much as a CGT or even if the Singer was half the price of a CGT..To be able to afford a CGT(or Singer) i'd have to sell all my cars which despite my best man maths doesn't make any sense. I think for a CGT it might make sense - unfortunately my cars are not worth enough to make that trade ...

Jamie Summers said: I wonder whether Singer, or a specially created sub-brand would consider producing a simple modified 964, without all the back-dated chintz ? A "period" 964 with all of the Singer carbon bodywork, chassis and engine could be fantastic. I remember some years ago there was a 964 RS that had been turned into a de-spoilered widebody with a fairly lairy Turbo motor and a bespoke leather interior. It wasn't to all tastes, but was quite a machine. This one ? Actually a 3.8 RSR that Mr Schmitz sold cheap mistakenly IIRC ...

Yes, that one ! I remembered as soon as I put the post up that it was a genuine RSR. The diamond stitched red leather interior was a bit of an acquired taste, but it's undoubtedly a cool car. I'd be just as interested in a Singer RSR as I would one of the backdates..... Though the interest is purely academic barring an vast unforeseen windfall ! Was it not bought by someone who posts on here ? (could be another forum......) and was being returned to original RSR spec, with the original engine having been tracked down somewhere. I'm sure there was a story involved....... Then it vanished - haven't seen any report of it for probably 10 years ??? Edited by Jamie Summers on Tuesday 25th February 17:16

isaldiri said: Would love to see this comparison some day. I admire what Singer have done wrt to attention to detail and aesthetics but the RUF seems to be the car with more of a nod to the actual engineering bits where the $$ has been spent on improving. ‘a nod to the actual engineering bits’

browngt3 said: I wonder how much input a Singer customer really gets in choosing spec. Mean there's definitely a particular look and style to them both inside and out. There is a menu of options which is quite exhaustive and the customer can also request bespoke items if they so wish. You could spec any combo you like, they don't try and steer you towards "loud" specs but I guess a lot of people who have carte blanche want to go crazy. These are also the people who are more visible in the media. They have done some very subtle greys/blacks/blues without decals and plain black interiors but I guess these aren't the ones splashed all over social media. A lovely car was delivered to London recently that is a very simple red with black interior and looks fabulous. They are very expensive and its hard to argue they are better value than a CGT or a 2.7RS which people may consider alternatives and are Porsche factory products. They are astonishingly good to drive though and I would argue far more practical than either a CGT or 2.7 RS so I think if you are in the fortunate position to really be able to afford one (and not care about value, depreciation, running cost etc) then its quite possibly the best road going 911 around. As HC said, the one car that can do it all.

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: Spot on re ruf ,mate is having one built at the mo,proper fast,light and classy. Porsche make the best porsche cars! Evening Paul, I hope things have changed, because from what I’ve seen over the past 10 or so years, Ruf’s now a very different animal to the halcyon days of their fettling the 930/964/993 and 996 Turbo models. The majority of what I’ve seen is expensive tat whose engineering leaves a lot to be desired... To that end I spent many hours poking around the bowels of a CTR3, the “engineering” was truly shocking, all the moreso when you take into account the price they charged for them... I saw the ctr3,as you say.Also saw a couple of 993 in usa with lots of scim filler,may be done after.The carbon 964 looky likey car from what i have seen of the build pics looks great and should cert go well. Any engineering can be done with big enough budgets.

Slippydiff said: This one ? Actually a 3.8 RSR that Mr Schmitz sold cheap mistakenly IIRC ... Mistake,cheap are you sure!;)

Yes, cheap, remember no one wanted to know about 964 RSs 15-20 years ago - particularly ones with "stories". They were even cheap at TJS !

shirt said: ‘a nod to the actual engineering bits’ This is great engineering,revs to 9000,half a 917 engine.

Yellow491 said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black.

RM said: How about they throw a Gunther Werks into the mix too? Nicely engineered, but makes a Singer look positively restrained ...

Jamie Summers said: Yes, that one ! I remembered as soon as I put the post up that it was a genuine RSR. The diamond stitched red leather interior was a bit of an acquired taste, but it's undoubtedly a cool car. I'd be just as interested in a Singer RSR as I would one of the backdates..... Though the interest is purely academic barring an vast unforeseen windfall ! Was it not bought by someone who posts on here ? (could be another forum......) and was being returned to original RSR spec, with the original engine having been tracked down somewhere. I'm sure there was a story involved....... Then it vanished - haven't seen any report of it for probably 10 years ??? It was a chap on the Porsche Club GB forum. Lovely car, interior definitely an acquired taste ... But yes, he found the original RSR engine, but in the time it took him to find it, he got rather attached to the 450-500hp Gemballa (Lotec) engine conversion...

Yellow491 said: Mistake,cheap are you sure!;) Hard to believe I know Paul, but a bit like the 993 Clubsport based “Black Snake” “Ring record car, Mr Schmitz does occasionally let a special car slip through his sweaty, avaricious mitts on the cheap

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: Mistake,cheap are you sure!;) Hard to believe I know Paul, but a bit like the 993 Clubsport based “Black Snake” “Ring record car, Mr Schmitz does occasionally let a special car slip through his sweaty, avaricious mitts on the cheap

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black. This engine was built by the older gents who designed and built the 917 engines,they have one in a 911,the sound ,the way it revs and goes just puts everything to bed. Sadly not for sale they built just two for something to do and see if they could still build such things.

Give me this 964 Carrera Cup any day of the week and I’ll spend the £400k I’ve saved on speciality jazz mags and Chinese fireworks.

Yellow491 said: This engine was built by the older gents who designed and built the 917 engines. Herr Mezger? That engine is a work of art, and the Singer DLS too

blackmamba said: browngt3 said: I wonder how much input a Singer customer really gets in choosing spec. Mean there's definitely a particular look and style to them both inside and out. There is a menu of options which is quite exhaustive and the customer can also request bespoke items if they so wish. You could spec any combo you like, they don't try and steer you towards "loud" specs but I guess a lot of people who have carte blanche want to go crazy. These are also the people who are more visible in the media. They have done some very subtle greys/blacks/blues without decals and plain black interiors but I guess these aren't the ones splashed all over social media. A lovely car was delivered to London recently that is a very simple red with black interior and looks fabulous. They are very expensive and its hard to argue they are better value than a CGT or a 2.7RS which people may consider alternatives and are Porsche factory products. They are astonishingly good to drive though and I would argue far more practical than either a CGT or 2.7 RS so I think if you are in the fortunate position to really be able to afford one (and not care about value, depreciation, running cost etc) then its quite possibly the best road going 911 around. As HC said, the one car that can do it all. Makes sense with that level of budget. I do agree a Singer makes a compelling case for itself in today's crowded supercar market. A bespoke work of both craftsmanship and technology that doesn't shout too loudly. It might even attract less attention in Lidl's carpark than my bright red GT3

Yellow491 said: Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black. This engine was built by the older gents who designed and built the 917 engines,they have one in a 911,the sound ,the way it revs and goes just puts everything to bed. Sadly not for sale they built just two for something to do and see if they could still build such things. Interesting cam covers Paul (and cam chain housing/covers) or are the cams gear driven ? Is it DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder ?

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black. This engine was built by the older gents who designed and built the 917 engines,they have one in a 911,the sound ,the way it revs and goes just puts everything to bed. Sadly not for sale they built just two for something to do and see if they could still build such things. Interesting cam covers Paul (and cam chain housing/covers) or are the cams gear driven ? Is it DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder ? Yes as a 917 with 4 valves,revs like a banshee,i could see that in my hillclimber. build your own special,which can be lighter,faster,more nimble and fun every time you get behind the wheel.

Slippy, while it's definitely a topic deserving of it's own thread, I'd be interested to hear of your observations of the current Ruf products. While I've admired Ruf's from afar, I always assumed that they presented a pinnacle in 911 engineering. Are they no longer what they used to be? The fact they designed & built their own V8 & then carbon-tubbed models suggests they were definitely in at the deep-end of engineering development,but were some of these products problematic? Please feel free to post your observations in a new thread - I'm genuinely interested.

Yellow491 said: Yes as a 917 with 4 valves,revs like a banshee,i could see that in my hillclimber. build your own special,which can be lighter,faster,more nimble and fun every time you get behind the wheel. Do you remember the Canadian company that developed 4 valve heads for the 964/993 engines back in the 90's Paul ? There was feature on it an American magazine called "European Car" and I think the heads were featured and advertised in 911 and Porsche World magazine too. The company tied up with a well known German engine builder and Cartronic to build and test a motor and finesse the whole package. They fitted the heads to a 993 motor (I imagine non Varioram) IIRC it produced 420hp with mild cams and a decent exhaust. It wasn't a cheap conversion and disappeared into the ether, never to be heard of again. Despite spending hours on the interweb, I couldn't find any information on the company or the heads/conversion itself. Mentioned here : https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/1291-4-valve... Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 26th February 10:59

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: Yes as a 917 with 4 valves,revs like a banshee,i could see that in my hillclimber. build your own special,which can be lighter,faster,more nimble and fun every time you get behind the wheel. Do you remember the Canadian company that developed 4 valve heads for the 964/993 engines back in the 90's Paul ? There was feature on it an American magazine called "European Car" and I think the heads were featured and advertised in 911 and Porsche World magazine too. The company tied up with a well known German engine builder and Cartronic to build and test a motor and finesse the whole package. They fitted the heads to a 993 motor (I imagine non Varioram) IIRC it produced 420hp with mild cams and a decent exhaust. It wasn't a cheap conversion and disappeared into the ether, never to be heard of again. Despite spending hours on the interweb, I couldn't find any information on the company or the heads/conversion itself. Mentioned here : https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/1291-4-valve... Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 26th February 10:59 I remember cartronic well,i used to run there exhaust mod and ecu revised chip on my 993rs,he did know his onions,the 4 valves were just to expensive,as i was all ears at the time! I am just in the middle of rebuilding my hillclimb 3.8 engine that me and colin belton from 9m developed 16 years ago,i have to say 5 stars for this engine,its been nothing short of 100% reliable,its been raced,hillclimbed,road to track days at spa and the ring etc,totaly abused with fresh oil regularly.Nothing short of remarkable. Decided to strip as tempting fate after 16 years!only thing we found was two cylinders the nikisil was starting to come off,one very slightly bent valve,carrillo rods reconditioned and should be back at the 378bhp we had before,all credit where credit is due to colin.

Yellow491 said: I remember cartronic well,i used to run there exhaust mod and ecu revised chip on my 993rs,he did know his onions,the 4 valves were just to expensive,as i was all ears at the time! I am just in the middle of rebuilding my hillclimb 3.8 engine that me and colin belton from 9m developed 16 years ago,i have to say 5 stars for this engine,its been nothing short of 100% reliable,its been raced,hillclimbed,road to track days at spa and the ring etc,totaly abused with fresh oil regularly.Nothing short of remarkable. Decided to strip as tempting fate after 16 years!only thing we found was two cylinders the nikisil was starting to come off,one very slightly bent valve,carrillo rods reconditioned and should be back at the 378bhp we had before,all credit where credit is due to colin. That’s good to hear Paul More on those 4 valve heads here : http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technic... Kelso Technologies

Slippydiff said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black. Actually, this is a box that I have ticked.

I remember Andy74B dismissing Singer a few years ago on the grounds of cost but he's somewhat changed his mind since his car was delivered last year. Very understated grey exterior with dark interior. Really stunning car. .

comfortably numb said: Slippydiff said: That’s how the Singer exhaust should look IMO. The tailpipes could still have some perf inside them to reduce the rasp, but the outside could/should be ceramic coated in light grey, dark grey or black. Actually, this is a box that I have ticked.

Yellow491 said: Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: Yes as a 917 with 4 valves,revs like a banshee,i could see that in my hillclimber. build your own special,which can be lighter,faster,more nimble and fun every time you get behind the wheel. Do you remember the Canadian company that developed 4 valve heads for the 964/993 engines back in the 90's Paul ? There was feature on it an American magazine called "European Car" and I think the heads were featured and advertised in 911 and Porsche World magazine too. The company tied up with a well known German engine builder and Cartronic to build and test a motor and finesse the whole package. They fitted the heads to a 993 motor (I imagine non Varioram) IIRC it produced 420hp with mild cams and a decent exhaust. It wasn't a cheap conversion and disappeared into the ether, never to be heard of again. Despite spending hours on the interweb, I couldn't find any information on the company or the heads/conversion itself. Mentioned here : https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/1291-4-valve... I am just in the middle of rebuilding my hillclimb 3.8 engine that me and colin belton from 9m developed 16 years ago,i have to say 5 stars for this engine,its been nothing short of 100% reliable,its been raced,hillclimbed,road to track days at spa and the ring etc,totaly abused with fresh oil regularly.Nothing short of remarkable. Decided to strip as tempting fate after 16 years!only thing we found was two cylinders the nikisil was starting to come off,one very slightly bent valve,carrillo rods reconditioned and should be back at the 378bhp we had before,all credit where credit is due to colin. Have a Colin Belton 3.8 in our 9m RS. Its fantastic. Not cheap though or as powerful as yours at 330bhp but makes my 997 mezger rated at 800bhp + on race fuel feel tame by comparison - you could also say that about the cars themselves not just their engines. £27,000 in 2015 for a 9m 3.8 so your development work with Mr Belton has probably benefitted lots of us - many thanks

big fan of catchpole and big fan of the car! good video

Davey S2 said: I remember Andy74B dismissing Singer a few years ago on the grounds of cost but he's somewhat changed his mind since his car was delivered last year. Very understated grey exterior with dark interior. Really stunning car. . If i ever get to a position where i'm able to buy a Singer one day(highly unlikely) it'll be in a nice Grey with a dark interior, exactly the way you describe Andy's car..

disappointed to read that the Ruf may not be all it is cracked up to be. I think the styling on the recent carbon tub models is ace, and makes the Singer look a little fussy.

Penguinracer said: Slippy, while it's definitely a topic deserving of it's own thread, I'd be interested to hear of your observations of the current Ruf products. While I've admired Ruf's from afar, I always assumed that they presented a pinnacle in 911 engineering. Are they no longer what they used to be? The fact they designed & built their own V8 & then carbon-tubbed models suggests they were definitely in at the deep-end of engineering development,but were some of these products problematic? Please feel free to post your observations in a new thread - I'm genuinely interested. Let me state here and now, I'm not a Ruf expert. The likes of McLaren F1 owner Flemke and Toby Baxendale (TB993T) on PH have far, far more indepth knowledge of the company and its products than I. My experiences of Ruf products are either from magazine articles/videos or have been drawn from Ruf cars I’ve seen been worked on over the past 10 years or so. But like you, I admired them from afar. The legendary Yellowbird was featured in several now defunct magazines, and the now defunct Performance Car magazine did a feature on Stefan Roser and his then little publicised exploits around the legendary "Green Hell", but more pertinently for me, that feature highlighted the availability of a Ruf produced VHS video of his exploits, both in car and from the trackside. Suffice to say I ordered a copy forthwith. The Yellowbird was an object lesson in how to develop and hone the "humble" 911 into a car that could stand toe to toe with the the other contenders for the crown of the fastest car in the world, that it did so partially with turbocharged brute force and by retaining the 911's minimal frontal area, impressed me greatly. Ruf became synonymous with engineering excellence, modifying and improving the oily bits of Stuttgart’s finest aircooled products. Any aesthetic modifications were driven my the need to improve cooling or high speed stability etc, style over substance was not the Ruf way, and I admired Alois and his company for that. The introduction of watercooling to the 911 range (along with the Boxster and Cayman) must have brought new challenges for Ruf, and to that end Flemke on PH had a Boxster converted by Ruf, I'm unsure if this was a simple power upgrade/conversion or a complete Ruf model (a 3400 S or 3600 S ?) but if I recall correctly, he had numerous issues with it, and whilst he found the staff at Ruf to be ever helpful, one sensed he was less than impressed with the quality of the finished product. Some years ago I saw a Ruf 997 R Kompressor with it's supercharger removed, that car remained off the road for many, many months whilst the person tasked with fixing it "battled" with the staff at Ruf to get the supercharger overhauled. IIRC they were reticent to rebuild the existing unit, instead they wanted to sell him a new unit, but they weren't available from the manufacturer ... The CTR 3 I've frequently seen the bowels of, was owned by a gentleman well known in the Porsche community and I suspect on PH too. On the surface it looked a mightily impressive car, but once one delved into the nuts and bolts beneath the nicely CNC'd machined alloy suspension components ,the carbon fibre airbox and body trim panels, the cracks (and cost cutting) began to appear. The example I all too often saw being fettled, required many, many hours be invested in it, to ensure it ran reliably, such was the lack of attention to detail in many aspects of the build. Don't get me wrong, the 996 Turbo based Mezger engine it utilised was mighty, as were their 996 Turbo/GT2 3.8 "Nardo" engine conversions. Conservatively rated at 590-600hp, they actually produced closer to 650hp ... The attention to detail in those engine conversions was impressive (as it should have been for the price) the 3.8 Nardo conversion featured beautifully sculpted inconel exhaust manifolds, and to make the engine rev and breathe better, they also fitted GT3 cams. In short, they were properly developed, built (and tested on the company's Schenck dyno facility) engines. I hope the new carbon fibre tubbed SCR is a return to the glory days, it's credentials certainly stack up, and there's clearly been no lack of investment in the project. Only time will tell if it's a worthy rival to Singer's products, but for me the loss of air cooling for the flat 6 powerplant is retrograde step too far, and I'm not completely convinced by the styling (or indeed the wheel design) but it sounds as if a lot of attention has gone into the car's chassis dynamics to improve how it drives and its stability. The price looks to be 650K euros, so not a huge difference to what Rob Dickinson wants for a Singer. I'll take an example of each, the Ruf in Rubystone red, the Singer in BMW Silver Grey please.

Taffy66 said: Davey S2 said: I remember Andy74B dismissing Singer a few years ago on the grounds of cost but he's somewhat changed his mind since his car was delivered last year. Very understated grey exterior with dark interior. Really stunning car. . If i ever get to a position where i'm able to buy a Singer one day(highly unlikely) it'll be in a nice Grey with a dark interior, exactly the way you describe Andy's car.. He changes his mind a lot....cancelled his Valkyrie I believe. Interesting character ! Works very hard and not at all flash. I used to work for the same company, knew him a bit but had no idea of quite how big his “car habit” was at the time. Although it’s on a different scale these days.

Slippy, thank you for the valuable insight. The fact that Ruf now has a UK service centre suggests that they became aware that they perhaps weren't providing the level of support & service which their affluent UK clients expected. I sincerely hope that their products return to the primacy they enjoyed during the mid-late '80's with the Yellow Bird & that they set new standards in 911 engineering. For some reason I have a soft spot for them relative to Singer - perhaps because they are aesthetically more understated & seem to prioritise engineering excellence over marketing.

Slippydiff said: Let me state here and now, I'm not a Ruf expert. The likes of McLaren F1 owner Flemke and Toby Baxendale (TB993T) on PH have far, far more indepth knowledge of the company and its products than I. My experiences of Ruf products are either from magazine articles/videos or have been drawn from Ruf cars I’ve seen been worked on over the past 10 years or so. But like you, I admired them from afar. The legendary Yellowbird was featured in several now defunct magazines, and the now defunct Performance Car magazine did a feature on Stefan Roser and his then little publicised exploits around the legendary "Green Hell", but more pertinently for me, that feature highlighted the availability of a Ruf produced VHS video of his exploits, both in car and from the trackside. Suffice to say I ordered a copy forthwith. The Yellowbird was an object lesson in how to develop and hone the "humble" 911 into a car that could stand toe to toe with the the other contenders for the crown of the fastest car in the world, that it did so partially with turbocharged brute force and by retaining the 911's minimal frontal area, impressed me greatly. Ruf became synonymous with engineering excellence, modifying and improving the oily bits of Stuttgart’s finest aircooled products. Any aesthetic modifications were driven my the need to improve cooling or high speed stability etc, style over substance was not the Ruf way, and I admired Alois and his company for that. The introduction of watercooling to the 911 range (along with the Boxster and Cayman) must have brought new challenges for Ruf, and to that end Flemke on PH had a Boxster converted by Ruf, I'm unsure if this was a simple power upgrade/conversion or a complete Ruf model (a 3400 S or 3600 S ?) but if I recall correctly, he had numerous issues with it, and whilst he found the staff at Ruf to be ever helpful, one sensed he was less than impressed with the quality of the finished product. Some years ago I saw a Ruf 997 R Kompressor with it's supercharger removed, that car remained off the road for many, many months whilst the person tasked with fixing it "battled" with the staff at Ruf to get the supercharger overhauled. IIRC they were reticent to rebuild the existing unit, instead they wanted to sell him a new unit, but they weren't available from the manufacturer ... The CTR 3 I've frequently seen the bowels of, was owned by a gentleman well known in the Porsche community and I suspect on PH too. On the surface it looked a mightily impressive car, but once one delved into the nuts and bolts beneath the nicely CNC'd machined alloy suspension components ,the carbon fibre airbox and body trim panels, the cracks (and cost cutting) began to appear. The example I all too often saw being fettled, required many, many hours be invested in it, to ensure it ran reliably, such was the lack of attention to detail in many aspects of the build. Don't get me wrong, the 996 Turbo based Mezger engine it utilised was mighty, as were their 996 Turbo/GT2 3.8 "Nardo" engine conversions. Conservatively rated at 590-600hp, they actually produced closer to 650hp ... The attention to detail in those engine conversions was impressive (as it should have been for the price) the 3.8 Nardo conversion featured beautifully sculpted inconel exhaust manifolds, and to make the engine rev and breathe better, they also fitted GT3 cams. In short, they were properly developed, built (and tested on the company's Schenck dyno facility) engines. I hope the new carbon fibre tubbed SCR is a return to the glory days, it's credentials certainly stack up, and there's clearly been no lack of investment in the project. Only time will tell if it's a worthy rival to Singer's products, but for me the loss of air cooling for the flat 6 powerplant is retrograde step too far, and I'm not completely convinced by the styling (or indeed the wheel design) but it sounds as if a lot of attention has gone into the car's chassis dynamics to improve how it drives and its stability. The price looks to be 650K euros, so not a huge difference to what Rob Dickinson wants for a Singer. I'll take an example of each, the Ruf in Rubystone red, the Singer in BMW Silver Grey please. Great Post, more of the same on PH please!

There are a few may be four companies over the years who have tried the ruf agency/service centre etc. Slippy fairly sure my mates ruf build is aircooled ,will ask.

Yellow491 said: There are a few may be four companies over the years who have tried the ruf agency/service centre etc. And one UK company that advertised themselves as a Ruf agency, but weren't (according to Alois ....) Yellow491 said: Slippy fairly sure my mates ruf build is aircooled ,will ask. "Hanging off the back of the chassis is a RUF-designed water-cooled 4.0-liter flat-six that makes 510 hp at 8100 rpm and 347 lb-ft of torque" Quoted from this Road & Track feature Paul : https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/geneva-auto... I'm sure it's a far from definitive article, but one would hope they'd get the basics right ...

Slippydiff said: "Hanging off the back of the chassis is a RUF-designed water-cooled 4.0-liter flat-six that makes 510 hp at 8100 rpm and 347 lb-ft of torque" Quoted from this Road & Track feature Paul : https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/geneva-auto... I'm sure it's a far from definitive article, but one would hope they'd get the basics right ... Extract taken from 2018 Brochure,so there may have been some developments since then.

lowndes said: Extract taken from 2018 Brochure,so there may have been some developments since then. The torque and horsepower figures tally up. "Crankcases loosely based on 996/7 Mezger engine", it sounds like a re-hashed 997 GT3 RS 4.0 motor with Ruf's own crankases. I've seen an image of the Ruf crankcases, but I can't find it again now

anybody else got the email about the Singer for sale (Malibu, very pretty turquoise colour) - would certainly brighten up most of my days if I could own that as my (summer) daily driver

Agreed! What a beauty!

New UK Singer “Pimlico”...stunning! https://www.instagram.com/p/B9PL4p2h0Sd/?utm_sourc...

Cheib said: He changes his mind a lot....cancelled his Valkyrie I believe. Interesting character ! Works very hard and not at all flash. I used to work for the same company, knew him a bit but had no idea of quite how big his “car habit” was at the time. Although it’s on a different scale these days. In fairness don’t change my mind that much. Singer I did struggle to justify years ago when 1st looked but having gone the modified 911 route a few times it starts to make more sense. Valkyrie- it’s not about changing my mind. I did cancel purely because I didn’t want £1.5m unsecured with a company that may not survive. The car is also heavily compromised from when we deposited and 2 years late already.

andy74b said: Cheib said: He changes his mind a lot....cancelled his Valkyrie I believe. Interesting character ! Works very hard and not at all flash. I used to work for the same company, knew him a bit but had no idea of quite how big his “car habit” was at the time. Although it’s on a different scale these days. In fairness don’t change my mind that much. Singer I did struggle to justify years ago when 1st looked but having gone the modified 911 route a few times it starts to make more sense. Valkyrie- it’s not about changing my mind. I did cancel purely because I didn’t want £1.5m unsecured with a company that may not survive. The car is also heavily compromised from when we deposited and 2 years late already. if you have a minute, would be great to get your thoughts on your Singer - how have you found it so far (not sure how long you have owned it for)? given it is a small 911, I assume there would be no issue using it daily / in all weathers? any reliability issues or similar. how does it feel on the road in the UK / steering damping etc Cheers

N/A ruf,looks good,great pics on ruf Facebook especially in green.

Simply stunning,quality interior with houndstooth lolipops,whats not to like. Singer need to raise the game if they can! Hopefully close up in the carbon its a quality car.

Yellow491 said: N/A ruf,looks good,great pics on ruf Facebook especially in green. There’s a lot of coolant hoses there for an aircooled motor Paul ... As I said earlier in this thread, it sounds like a re-hashed Mezger, and it clearly is (nothing wrong with that, but let’s not kid ourselves it’s a new Ruf engine from the ground up, it’s isn’t) As for the fake “fan housing” for the alternator, I mean come on ... Ultimately it is an amazing car, and the carbon monocoque is a nice idea and beautifully executed, but they’ve messed with the tracks and the wheelbase, so it’s pretty far away from what Singer have done with the aircooled 964. Is the whole concept “better” than a Singer ? No, I’d say it’s merely different Would I have one ? Hell yes !!

andy74b said: Cheib said: He changes his mind a lot....cancelled his Valkyrie I believe. Interesting character ! Works very hard and not at all flash. I used to work for the same company, knew him a bit but had no idea of quite how big his “car habit” was at the time. Although it’s on a different scale these days. In fairness don’t change my mind that much. Singer I did struggle to justify years ago when 1st looked but having gone the modified 911 route a few times it starts to make more sense. Valkyrie- it’s not about changing my mind. I did cancel purely because I didn’t want £1.5m unsecured with a company that may not survive. The car is also heavily compromised from when we deposited and 2 years late already. Fair call on the Aston because of having £1.5 mil unsecured. The Stroll magic bullet lost it’s lustre very quickly.....things do not look good for them.

Slippydiff said: Yellow491 said: N/A ruf,looks good,great pics on ruf Facebook especially in green. There’s a lot of coolant hoses there for an aircooled motor Paul ... Them coolant pipes are full of fresh air As I said earlier in this thread, it sounds like a re-hashed Mezger, and it clearly is (nothing wrong with that, but let’s not kid ourselves it’s a new Ruf engine from the ground up, it’s isn’t) As for the fake “fan housing” for the alternator, I mean come on ...I know i know!,buts it’s differant. Ultimately it is an amazing car, and the carbon monocoque is a nice idea and beautifully executed, but they’ve messed with the tracks and the wheelbase, so it’s pretty far away from what Singer have done with the aircooled 964. It should handle better;) Is the whole concept “better” than a Singer ? No, I’d say it’s merely different we will have to wait and see it in the flesh,should be one in the uk later in the year. Would I have one ? Hell yes !!

I had a good poke around the RUF SCR at the Geneva show a couple of years ago. I prefer the Singer styling and interior, but I appreciate that the RUF would appeal to someone who likes the 964ish look and the simple interior. I was surprised that the RUF isn't lighter than the Singer given the greater use of carbon. Maybe the chassis and suspension setup are more modern on the RUF and it would have the advantage on the track, but the Singer looks and feels more special to me. I wonder how many SCRs have been made?

A new thing is coming tomorrow... Singer Turbo? https://www.instagram.com/p/CZuRo7YpjVT/?utm_mediu...

ajprice said: A new thing is coming tomorrow... Singer Turbo? https://www.instagram.com/p/CZuRo7YpjVT/?utm_mediu... Just from that teaser shot it looks highly likely they have created their best commission to date.

Top Gear magazine has a 2 page spread on the new offering inc pictures, technicals.

It'll have the turbo engine from that Dakar-ish SUV, jacked up 911 thing. Looks like it could be nice though

smudger911 said: Top Gear magazine has a 2 page spread on the new offering inc pictures, technicals. Can you take a picture of the pics please.

LeakUpTest said: It'll have the turbo engine from that Dakar-ish SUV, jacked up 911 thing. Looks like it could be nice though Or how about a DLS engine in a regular Singer, now that would be a hot rod

Slippydiff said: Or how about a DLS engine in a regular Singer, now that would be a hot rod engine, schmengine....as long as it comes with the DLS door cards

I know this is the Singer thread, but lots of talk about RUF in here too. Have you seen the reviews by AutotopNL of the new carbon SCR and CTR? 911 fans with money are spoilt for choice right now.

thegreenhell said: I know this is the Singer thread, but lots of talk about RUF in here too. Have you seen the reviews by AutotopNL of the new carbon SCR and CTR? 911 fans with money are spoilt for choice right now. thanks for sharing. Green one has wonky fabric on the A pillar. Incongruous steering wheel. Cheap looking carbon parts. Everything looks too shiny and retina burning. Yellow one aint much better. Interesting switch gear, but meh all round I'd say.

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://thumbsnap.com/sc/ni13vWcX.jpg

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://thumbsnap.com/sc/x3Qj6bkp.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/CZwsbhvlKSm/?utm_mediu...

That 930 turbo reimagined looks epic. Wow. The best singer yet for me.

smudger911 said: Thank you! blimey, does it get any better than that? what a sensational car. 'they think its all over.... it is now'

https://www.netcarshow.com/singer/2022-turbo_study...

Podcast - Singer's Turbo Study, with Rob Dickinson & Maz Fawaz https://9werks.co.uk/articles/new-turbo-study-reve...