End of GT4 production - Page 2 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Talking to an OPC sales guy today it seems the GT4 and GT4 Spyder has gone on the N/A list if you were about to place a new order. Sounds to me like Porsche have taken the decision as a result of the chip shortage ( amongst other shortages in the auto industry like PVC of all things!) This will have the effect of pushing up used prices especially of PDK versions which must be like hens teeth.

Will chase my OPC up tomorrow, I have a deposit down (no allocation) so wonder what will happen?

Could end up being the end of an era? Wonderful machines and probably never to be repeated.

Glad I’m collecting mine 1st September then gt4 pdk. Certainly help resale value if they are stopped

burman said: Talking to an OPC sales guy today it seems the GT4 and GT4 Spyder has gone on the N/A list if you were about to place a new order. Sounds to me like Porsche have taken the decision as a result of the chip shortage ( amongst other shortages in the auto industry like PVC of all things!) This will have the effect of pushing up used prices especially of PDK versions which must be like hens teeth. This is old news. The 718, as is, cannot be sold in Europe for 2022, since for 2022 onwards the EU mandates features like speed limit aware speed limiters, drowsiness and distraction detection, auto emergency braking, collision data recorders, pre-wiring for alcohol interlocks, and a larger soft area in the front to absorb pedestrian head impacts. As ever, an OPC sales guy has missed an earlier memo. I mean this news is well over a year old. But fear not, Porsche's GT4/GTS N/A Flat-Six Will Stick Around Until 2026, just not in the guise of the 718 as we currently know it. Porsche’s Dr Frank Walliser confirmed all of this last year! I love how out of touch OPC’s are.

julian987R said: This is old news. The 718, as is, cannot be sold in Europe for 2022, since for 2022 onwards…. My understanding is different-I think that all current cars can continue to be sold. But new model cars eg a type ‘982+1’ will need the various safety systems.

Yep Julian has "missed a memo". The 2022 date applies to newly- launched models. Existing models of new car can be sold without the speed limiter etc until 2024. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandator... "The European Commission has reached a provisional agreement that all new vehicles sold in Europe will be fitted with a speed limiter as a legal requirement from 6 July 2022. The 2019/2044 regulation also mandates all new cars that have already launched be fitted with an Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA) by 7 July 2024."

Wonder if this applies to the GTS 4.0 also then?

L.Len said: Glad I’m collecting mine 1st September then gt4 pdk. Certainly help resale value if they are stopped Suppose that’ll improve the driving experience exponentially….

webstercivet said: Yep Julian has "missed a memo". The 2022 date applies to newly- launched models. Existing models of new car can be sold without the speed limiter etc until 2024. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandator... "The European Commission has reached a provisional agreement that all new vehicles sold in Europe will be fitted with a speed limiter as a legal requirement from 6 July 2022. The 2019/2044 regulation also mandates all new cars that have already launched be fitted with an Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA) by 7 July 2024." So, on that basis the new Macan just launched won’t need any of this crap either then - until 2024, assuming it’s even still in production then?

webstercivet said: Yep Julian has "missed a memo". The 2022 date applies to newly- launched models. Existing models of new car can be sold without the speed limiter etc until 2024. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandator... "The European Commission has reached a provisional agreement that all new vehicles sold in Europe will be fitted with a speed limiter as a legal requirement from 6 July 2022. The 2019/2044 regulation also mandates all new cars that have already launched be fitted with an Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA) by 7 July 2024." Indeed i did. I acknowledged my error, though only went on what Porsche's press release was...but I guess circumstances things have changed since then. Again, i stand corrected.

Wouldn't it be relatively easy for them to introduce the speed limiter anyway.

testdrive said: Wouldn't it be relatively easy for them to introduce the speed limiter anyway. Probably, and thats the least of their problems to solve on the list.

julian987R said: But fear not, Porsche's GT4/GTS N/A Flat-Six Will Stick Around Until 2026, just not in the guise of the 718 as we currently know it. Porsche’s Dr Frank Walliser confirmed all of this last year! I love how out of touch OPC’s are. Shame the 4.0 NA from the 718s wont be going into the 992s, It a great engine . “The 4.0-litre engine in the GTS can’t be rotated through 180 degrees to fit in the 911. We will not see them again [N/A engines in the Carrera range]. I’m sorry about that,” he said. “The R&D costs are too high to develop such an engine for the Carrera,” he added. When Car Throttle spoke to Porsche GT chief Andreas Preuninger last year, a similar argument was used for the 911 GT3/Speedster engine not being used in the GT4. If you need to flip the thing around to put the gearbox in the right place for a mid-engine configuration, a bunch of other stuff needs to be moved too. “You can make it fit in with a hammer and take sheet metal out, but that’s not fit for mass production,” he concluded.

My previous 981 Cayman S PDK was fitted with a 3.8L Carrera S engine in Germany, many more done in the USA since 987.1 generation - this not being able to reverse the engine orientation is nonsense, just keep the original gearbox though.

gtsralph said: My previous 981 Cayman S PDK was fitted with a 3.8L Carrera S engine in Germany, many more done in the USA since 987.1 generation - this not being able to reverse the engine orientation is nonsense, just keep the original gearbox though. Bit different though Ralph, the 3.4 and 3.8 engines and the chassis they came from were virtually identical as far as I understand it. The new 982 4.0 and 992 F6T units will have differences due to the turbos, much increased capacity, relocation of ancilliaries, chassis mounting points etc.

Like the 9x7.2 engines 3.4,3.6,3.8 is not the 4.0 na a bored out version or a derivative of the 3.0 turbo so where’s the problem

Like I said above I think it's bored out, has turbos removed and ancilliaries placed in different positions to facilitate location in the 981/982 chassis. Mounting points may well be different too. I don't know for sure though, it would be good to hear something definitive on the subject

Apart from a machined out crankcase to increase capacity on the 992 all the other components ie pistons , heads etc could be carried over from 4.0 caysters

And if the 992 chassis is a snug fit around the current turbos, intercooler and radiator pipework layout how will they accomodate the changes made to make it a 4.0 that fits in the 982 chassis (for example)? I get the impression that development has occured to make it fit in a 982 shell, but that doesn't mean you can copy and paste it into a 992 shell

Obviously it could be re-engineered to fit into either platform. However it’s not just simply a case of a few brackets and bits and bobs and off you go. It would be a full engineering programme with all the necessary durability testing and homologation to go with it. Probably about a 24 month programme and a lot of cash. It’s not like they can sell any more cars is it? It’s a bit of a miracle we got the 4.0L unit in the first place, the business case must have been very marginal at best.

That's exactly how I see it. My own personal view is that the 718 GT4 was supposed to have an F4T in it but such was the backlash from the US on the vanilla models that they had to change approach. After engineering the 4.0 they they had to put in it more models to recoup the costs, hence the GTS 4.0 and upcoming GT4RS and Spyder RS. Re-engineering it again for a one-off 911 model such as a 992 T just doesn't make financial sense.

Now I am no engineer but if the existing engine in 992 3.0 is the same as 4.0 then the 992 crankcase is cast to allow for bigger bore retaining current fixing points and then with every other part shared with the 4.0 at no extra cost.So I can see the only extra cost machining out the 992 crankcase to accommodate the bigger bore.You are gaining space by removing turbos and plumbing so space should not be an issue you not increasing external dimensions of the engine block by much

GT4P said: Now I am no engineer but if the existing engine in 992 3.0 is the same as 4.0 then the 992 crankcase is cast to allow for bigger bore retaining current fixing points and then with every other part shared with the 4.0 at no extra cost.So I can see the only extra cost machining out the 992 crankcase to accommodate the bigger bore.You are gaining space by removing turbos and plumbing so space should not be an issue you not increasing external dimensions of the engine block by much Indeed, simples. However that’s not how it works, the design bit is only a small fraction of the cost of developing a new power unit, because that is what it is. The big money is in all the necessary work to prove it is fit for purpose and legally fit for sale in every territory that you sell it in. Tens of millions of Euros for a 4.0L NA 911. That is before you consider the effect on group CO2 emissions from the much less efficient configuration.

Thank you for enlightening me bigmowley although crazy as it’s basically the same engine with capacity and not turbos! So the mechanical side is easy but the red tape bureaucracy isn’t

bigmowley said: GT4P said: Now I am no engineer but if the existing engine in 992 3.0 is the same as 4.0 then the 992 crankcase is cast to allow for bigger bore retaining current fixing points and then with every other part shared with the 4.0 at no extra cost.So I can see the only extra cost machining out the 992 crankcase to accommodate the bigger bore.You are gaining space by removing turbos and plumbing so space should not be an issue you not increasing external dimensions of the engine block by much Indeed, simples. However that’s not how it works, the design bit is only a small fraction of the cost of developing a new power unit, because that is what it is. The big money is in all the necessary work to prove it is fit for purpose and legally fit for sale in every territory that you sell it in. Tens of millions of Euros for a 4.0L NA 911. That is before you consider the effect on group CO2 emissions from the much less efficient configuration. Am I just an idiot or does a 4.0 NASP 992 already exist? I thought it was called the Porsche 911 GT3, so the 4.0 NASP has already been engineered, just remove a lot of the GT3 aero and chassis goodies, detune the engine and you’ll have a NASP 911 GTS. Simples.

Holgate86 said: bigmowley said: GT4P said: Now I am no engineer but if the existing engine in 992 3.0 is the same as 4.0 then the 992 crankcase is cast to allow for bigger bore retaining current fixing points and then with every other part shared with the 4.0 at no extra cost.So I can see the only extra cost machining out the 992 crankcase to accommodate the bigger bore.You are gaining space by removing turbos and plumbing so space should not be an issue you not increasing external dimensions of the engine block by much Indeed, simples. However that’s not how it works, the design bit is only a small fraction of the cost of developing a new power unit, because that is what it is. The big money is in all the necessary work to prove it is fit for purpose and legally fit for sale in every territory that you sell it in. Tens of millions of Euros for a 4.0L NA 911. That is before you consider the effect on group CO2 emissions from the much less efficient configuration. Am I just an idiot or does a 4.0 NASP 992 already exist? I thought it was called the Porsche 911 GT3, so the 4.0 NASP has already been engineered, just remove a lot of the GT3 aero and chassis goodies, detune the engine and you’ll have a NASP 911 GTS. Simples. Some far better qualified people on here can explain the engine lineage of the 992 GT3 but as I understand it this engine is a full Motorsport unit based on the previous generation of power units that preceded the 3.0L turbo lump. The Cayster 4.0L lump is a totally different unit and is essentially an upgrade of the 3.0L turbo lump without any turbos. I don’t know for sure but my guess is that there is not one single part in common between the 2 different 4.0L N/A engines. The GT3 engine will cost a fortune to produce and is very special, it represents the last throw of the dice for the previous gen of engines. It’s the modern equivalent of the 4.0L mezger unit in the 997 GT3. Should Porsche want to develop a 4.0L detuned unit for the cooking 911 from a GT3 base then exactly the same development and homologation costs apply. In addition you would need a volume production facility for this new engine as I think the current GT3 engines are built in a low volume specialised facility.