993RS & 964RS in the wet - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Have done wet track days and agree you can swoosh past more cicumspect drivers in supposedly quicker cars. TVRs, anyone? Nice in the dry, but most drivers acquire a superlight right foot in the wet. But, one big reason for not driving on wet track days is visibility. It can get scary - very scary. So pity the poor R500 driver, sat lower with only aero screens, where we sit in relative comfort. I doubt he'd want to get anywhere near you!

Being rear engined will improve traction in slippery conditions. This is very noticeable at sprints. Having said that, it takes a lot of skill and commitment to drive cars with this level of performance at the limit in slippery conditions and the driver probably makes more difference than the car. Personally, I find dry track days far more fun in my TVR because the car slides so much more progressively, it is possible to explore the limit of grip without worrying about it breaking away. In the wet, once the car stars to slide the grip drops off very quickly and it takes a lot more work to balance the car. It does in a TVR, anyway. Cheers, Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)

On the day it was not raining during the track time so visibility was not a factor at all; as for feeling sorry for someone who has spent £25,000 on a glorified rollerscate, who are you kidding??? Regarding dry track days, the point that I am making relative to the TVR's is that the level of grip of the CS on P Zero C's is such that discovering the limit is big balls teritory, and not everyone is prepared to explore these limits such is the commitment required. I have done many Oulton days with TVR's about, including Cerberas, Tuscans and others, and none can get within 5 seconds of a well driven RS. Mind you, that might be because effective brakes are an afterthought in Blackpool.

£25k for a glorified rollerskate....Find me one for £25k & I'll bite your hand off. Bet he was running on ACB10s too...

Fair play to Mr B! However, for the less talented mortals like me, dipping their toe in the waters of 911RSdom for the first time, I can testify that the 964RS is a trickier car *for me* to drive in the wet than in the dry. Indeed, whilst I can four wheel drift the 'lil bastard' in the dry, I have been caught out by the speed and duration of an accidental wet weather slide. With more skill (and more regard for the laws of traction on exiting a corner!) I could probably hustle the car quite quickly on a wet circuit - but there is no denying that the 964RS takes more talent to drive near the limit in the wet than other sports cars, because it is easy for the inexperienced or insensitive to overstep them. The Lotus Carlton I owned was probably easier to drive in falling snow than the RS in the wet - the power steering, soft suspension and front engine, all allowed the tail to hang out more slowly and more controllably than the razor sharp RS, even if the limits may ultimately have been lower. So yes, in some ways the RSs have an undeserved wet weather reputation, as driven sensitively they have the grip and the handling. But they also have a deserved reputation for being a handful because they are trickier for the less skilled or experienced to drive near, on or beyond the limits.

Dom, I wondered when you would rise to the bait. In fairness to yourself, the 964RS is trickier to wet drive than the 993RS because it is stiffer out of the box. There is also a tendency for most owners to slam the cars to the floor and run them full hard on the anti-roll bar settings which makes them worse, so no wonder they can be a bit of a handfull and develop their reputation. However, what I'm driving at (sic) is that both RS's can be set up forgivingly for wet weather, and then when pushed will be faster than almost any equivalent track day machine. As for 4wd bretheren, not even a well driven 370bhp 'bishi Evo could keep up with us on a wet Oulton Park last year and ended up in the grass trying. My point is that maybe these other track weapons are not all that they appear (not just overpriced and Japanese) in comparison with any RS, and that maybe we should all get out, soften the bars up, practice and set the record straight?

Well, I'm up for it - sounds fun trying. But I'll put cones at risk next time, not badgers

Interesting posts. It's clear the RS models were the best handling in their day. I take it Porsche has moved things on with the new GT3. How do you guys feel about this in comparison?

Anyone here track a 964C2 Tip? I'm interested in trying mine on a track but would appreciate any comments on things to look out for. The car is stock at the moment, although I am looking at lowering in the nearby future. Great to hear that the PCar fraternity dominate the trackday events, makes me even more proud to own one!

Richard, You will be ok with the tip if you are not a hard charger, but if you are thinking late braking and tailsliding then forget it, the brakes will give up due to the extra weight and you cannot control the power slides though a torque converter. Sorry to break it to you gently (hmmm) but the best place for the tip is in the city, not on the track but do not let me put you off having a go if you have not been on one before.

"both RS's can be set up forgivingly for wet weather" What sort of setup do you recommend?

Pretty obvious really, for the 964 start with full soft on the anti-roll bars and near stock RS ride height and geometry, maybe 1.5 degrees neg and maybe a little less front toe if you are experienced. The 993 can still run with 2 degree neg and start with middle settings on the arbs, but run with straight ahead or a smidgeon of toe out on the front, it makes it a little less sensitive. My 993RS CS runs 2 & 2.5 degrees neg, -10 & + 20 toe, 5 30 castor and as low as it will go, especially on the rear; arb's I usually leave in the middle. The car placed 1st & 2nd on the PCGB national sprint at Ty Croes this year on these settings, with P Zero C tyres, so they aren't that bad. If you don't know what the heck I'm on about, don't ask me to explain, bring your car up and we'll do the set up for you and I'll explain it all as we go.

Ninemeister, slightly O/T but I have a 964 C4 that I would like to dial out some of the inherent understeer through an alignment set-up. I realise that ultimately I will need to go down the lowered and uprated suspension route, but I was wondering how much can be affected initially through an optimised alignment and what would be the cost? Cheers Nick

Nick, The only way we ever eliminated understeer on a 964C4 was to fit a handling kit & a larger rear anti roll bar. Mind you, thinking about it, the 500bhp turbo conversion helped as well. Seriously the problem you have is weight and weight transfer, so it really needs stiffer springs and dampers to do anything noticeable. Typically though, a wheel alignment takes 2-3 hours @ £40 per hr, and a handling kit would be around £1500 fitted and aligned, both + VAT. In future though, as I do not want to incur the wrath of the site moderator, if anyone is after quotes could you please mail me direct & not through the forum, I'm here to help not advertise.

In the wet? Had a ball at Brands yesterday, even on shot POC's!....but 'softer' RS quicker than my Cup around the corners, and his tyres were legal.... bears out Colin's comments about softening the suspension in the wet. C4 -my old one had lowered suspension, strut brace, 290bhp and -1 camber on the front -that helped eliminate a lot of the understeer + trail braking into the corners to set it up. Have fun!!

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll invest in the alignment first (-1 camber etc) whilst i save up for the H & R/Bilstein kit! I want to spend my money on the chassis before i look at the engine - although i have fitted a bypass pipe for the primary silencer and the infamous drilled airbox cover! Ninemeister, I only live 5 miles away so, despite my best efforts, I suspect that I'm going to be paying you a few expensive visits this next year! Cheers Nick

Nick, You're welcome. It would pay you to pop in anyway as we can dial you in to Tim at Millenium track club, Tim organises a lot of track days at Oulton Park (has dates for December) and is very reasonably priced, so once your car is set up there will be many opportunities to practise that trail braking without breaking the bank.

Whooo -Oulton, my favourite track. Shame it's four hours from here, but an annual pilgrimage is vital. Malcolm Hamilton, Chief Instructor, drove my Cup Car earlier this year and it was an absolute pleasure to be driven around by him. His opening comments were, 'I don't usually like 911's.........but I like this, it's neutral'. Just what I wanted to hear. To watch him feed the gear lever sympathetically through the box and just move the weight of the car around under breaking and acceleration was pure joy -good to watch a master at work and see how smoothness is the key. Melv.

Melv, Oulton is my local haunt, usually visit it 4 or 5 times a year, top circuit and a devil to master, but there is nothing like getting into the groove for a few fast laps and showing the kit cars how to do it. We'll have to organise a spring track day for next year, anyone interested at around £160 per head for an open pit lane?

If I have the 964RS, it gets under noise regs and I can sort trackday insurance, count me in...

Any 964RS with no cat and a cup pipe fitted will get in, Pete Morris runs his car regularly on these days and has no problem at all. Tim can be reached on 07774 665888, he will organise the event on our behalf, any interested parties please call him direct and ask him to send you a schedule or just to put you on the mailing list. I have driven on these days a lot, and although there is usually a fair mix of cars, the driving standards are usually fairly high, although they do not like all out racing under any circumstances.

Ninemeister, I have a 964 RSR (Club Sport), which I use purely for Track days. I run Michelin Pilot Cup Sport (steady!) in the dry and damp - will try Pirelli P Zero C's next time - which I know you prefer, but I am looking to buy a second set of wheels for the wet, and I can't decide on which tyre choice to go for. I currently have a set of Pirelli P Zero Asimmetrico and they are scary in the wet on track. I had a racing driver in the car with me going around Donnington Park, and even he commented how bad they were - or maybe it was my setup/driving? Current thoughts are: Full race wets - relatively cheap £80-90 a wheel, good in wet, will destroy them if it dry's out too much - good choice if you can afford 3 sets of wheels - I can't :-( SO2's - stopped making them :'-( Toyo Proxes TS-1 - Seem to get very good write-ups, especially wet weather handling. Don't know how they work with a Porsche? Thoughts? Cheers, Mark

Colin -count me in!! As long as it's a weekday, it's worth the trip and I stay overnight nearby in a B&B. MElv

Re track day - count me in :-)

Pirelli no longer make the P Zero C's unfortunatly. As an alternative to the Pilot Cups, I've heard good things about Dunlop Forumla R's (available direct from Dunlop Motorsport)

Meant the P Zero Corsa's, understand from the guys at Silverline that they are better than the Pilot Cup Sports?? Formula R's used them on my previous car, thought they were good, but old technology and more importantly they don't make them the right size for my wheels.

Regarding wet/road tyres, try finding some Bridgstone S02a's, these are the replacement for the S02. Regarding dry tyres, I have always liked the P Zero C and I could not live with the "compromise" of the Michelin Sport Cup at all. A lot of my customers are using the Dunlop Formula R D01J and rave about it, but it is not made in the usual sizes for the 964RS unless you have 18" wheels, when their 235 & 275 will fit (believe it or not). My mate Pete (Mad Man) Morris runs the P Zero Corsa for his sportscar races and likes them. I have heard that Yokohama are doing the right size for the 964 on 17" but the supply has always been patchy, and finally I have been trying to get a set of Kuhmo tyres all year but their UK operation is a farce and never return calls to trade, so I gave it up as a bad job. I'll do the usual run around at Autosport and see what's available again, but my recommendation is for the S02a and P Zero Corsa. As for the track day, all get in touch with Tim, tell him I told you to call, and let's pick a day from the schedule early next year. Maybe we could combine it with a bit of a get together the night before??

Thanks for that Colin! Also, spoke to Silverline and they echo your comments on the Michelin Sport Cups, so I will definitely go for the P Zero Corsa's next time. As for the road/wet tyres, again the tyre of choice seems to be the SO2, but with a slight problem of availability. Even if I could get a set, I am not sure I would due to such limited availability. What happens if you shred a tyre, and you can't replace it.... stuffed! So the second choice by Silverline is the Yokohama AVS Sport, which they have done a lot of testing with. One of their customers who has several track Porsches and does around 70+ track days a year, has tested most makes of tyres and this has been the tyre they have come up with. (Note his preferred choice was the SO2 as well). Anyone experienced these tyres?? Can someone point me in the right direction of Tim for the Track day? Cheers

Thanx for the tyre info Colin. Have also just spoken to Tim, I'm on 'the list'. Great idea to meet up the night before as I usually drive up the day before and stay overnight near to the track. Mel

Colin I am interested in the Oulton trackday - when is it? I have just done two very wet Oulton days and was suprised at how well the car (964 C2 9M suspension SO-2s) behaved in the wet - hardly anthing passed me in the wet, which makes a change. Unfortunatly things are not quite so good as the track dried out as the tyres appear to overheat and pressures rise rapidly.

Tony I was stunned at how good a donated, trashed set of S02's were on my Cup Car. Good in the wet, and fine in the dry, as long as I kept lowering the pressures to 32 hot all around. When the rears went up by as little as 1-2psi, the back of the car went squirrelly, and it was time to come in to lower them again. Melv

Tim can be reached on 07774 665888, he will organise the event on our behalf, any interested parties please call him direct. I spoketo Tim yesterday, heis still awaiting dates for next year from Octagon (Oulton Park owners). As soon as he has these dates, I will post another thread with his details, the dates, the costs etc. What I am conceptualising (asuming we have the numbers)is to get together the most 964RS & 993RS models ever on one exclusive RS track day, no cup cars, no replicas, none less than 3.6, so we can all talk out of our RS all day and have great fun at the same time. However, until Tim has dates, if you are interested contact Tim (not me) and get on his mailing list so we can both start to plan ahead.

I'm off to Oulton for the first time on Wednesday in my 993RS. Any tips as it's likely to be a wet one ? What about tyre pressures (S02's with 285' on the rear ) ? Cheers Jim

What's wrong with Cup Cars Colin? -the RS was spawned from them. I don't think you can afford to be selective.......... Melv (pissed off) PS MURRAY -try 28cold, 32 hot, and keep lowering to 32 immediately after each session. Have a lot of fun -my favourite track!! Grab Malcolm Hamilton for some instruction if he is around. >> Edited by melv on Saturday 14th December 11:58

Murray My last two days at Oulton have been very wet and I ran my SO-2`s at 36psi and the handling was fine. I measured pressure when I arrive at the track at equalized them at 36psi ( if its dry I`ll drop them to 32psi at this time) and then check them after every session. Melv has a cup car which is a bit lighter than mine.

Is there a reason for having all tyres the same pressure ? Why do Porsche specify the big difference 36/44 for normal road use ? Jim

For one thing the tyres are different sizes front and rear, and for another the car is not balanced 50/50 weight. I think my 993 C4S is actually 63% rear, 37% front.

Go with Vsideways. Plus, if u read Paul Frere's book, he explains that on, I beleive, a model change in the '70's, Porsche realised that by jacking the rear tyre pressures way up, the rolling radius was increased, there was less friction, and therfore the car had a higher top speed and horsepower!! THAT is why. (Just spent 5 mins trying to find the relevant page, but u know what it's like when u r searching in a hurry -no luck!) Frankly, I think the cars feel diabolical on the recommended 36/44 pressures and I'm sure the high rear pressures only serve to promote spins!!

>> For one thing the tyres are different sizes front and rear, and for another the car is not balanced 50/50 weight. Realise that but people here recommend same pressures all round. For normal road use I normally run 34/38 but no no other reason than I read somewhere that the 36/44 was too high. Is it all to do with weight as if I remember correctly my normal road car is front engine, rear drive but still has higher pressures at the back.

I understnd experimentation is the best way.With a definite difference between front / rear pressures.There has been a lot of coverage of this issue on the rennlist forums. I recall the 964 on 16" design 90 wheels was F36 R44 Through to the 996 on 18" carrera wheels also F36 R44. Considering these 2 cars are different weights,different tyre diameters and aspect ratios & tyre technology has moved on in 13 years.Seems odd that pressures remain consistent? One thing I am concerned with is,say you are running F34 & R38 for example against handbook F36 & R44,if you were involved in an accident,would the insurance co be able to say the car was not in a road worthy condition as in tyre pressures too far from manufacturers spec??

For the 993RS on SO2's try 29 front and 34 rear in the wet, the lower pressure makes them a little more forgiving. You could run 32 36 if it is teaming down as the tyre temp will not build up. I run SO2's and these are my starting points. If it dries out, check them again after the first run and maintain constant hot pressures around the same level. This works for me anyway. Regarding the day Melv, I can afford to be choosy because I am just a paying customer like everyone else. Just thought it would be a good idea to get as many RS's together as possible, so if we get 60+ cars then Tim will have a full grid, if we get less then put your name down. Don't be so touchy, it is only one suggestion for a great RS day that will be a landmark event in the RS callendar if we get enough cars there. Tell everyone you can to get in touch with Tim and let's have fun.

What do you use for dry but cold (might be lucky tomorrow) ? Do you prefer 265 or 285's on the rear ? Jim

REALLY old thread this, but notice Colin (the 9meister) mention tiptronic, tailslides & torque converter. Of course, the torque converter on the 964 and later tiptronics has amechanical lock-up, so under heavy acceleration, it is a connected 1:1 through the converter, rather than slipping. STill on't know about cotrolling tailslides though.....

Not blowing me own trumpet you understand, but I have a track day at Oulton Park last Saturday (thanks Tim) and it turned out to be one of those interesting wet to dry, piss down then wet to dry days. The ole 993RS CS on worn P Zero's had me lapping round in the 2min 10's destroying all and sundry, just so, so funny coming up behind R500's and watching them tip toe around wagging their tail like a labrador puppy struggling to beat 2m 25s. It dried out enough later for a drt line to appear at which point the yella peril posted around 1m 56/57 on a clear run yet the R500s were hovering still around the 2m 05-10. Most satisfying indeed. So, who says 911's are a handful in the wet?? You can feel them every inch of the way through trail brake understeer turn in to feather throttle oversteer exit, can nail it on the straights and hammer the brakes on with total confidence. John & Adrian joined me after lunch (964RS & 993RS) and we pegged the field again for another 30 minutes. You can easily forget that the RS is a formidable tool, but who says that they are tricky in the wet? My mate Pete Morris put his 964RS CS on pole at Donnington (in front of Richard Chamberlain!) courtesy of the rain. I recommend that everyone should get out on the circuits for a winter track day and have a play, it will teach you to be precise and smooth so as not to deliberately upset the car. You will undoubtedly end up a better driver as a result, I certainly learn more after every wet session that I do. My only wish is that I had the confidence to find the edge of grip as easily in the dry as I now can in the wet.....