997.2 GTS v 997.2 C2S - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Is a manual 997 GTS really £25-30k better than a manual 997.2 C2S? So you get: - X51 Powerkit - Alcantara Interior - Centre lock wheels - Last of 997 line - GTS badge

I was wondering exactly that myself just last week when I saw a really nice GTS that looked an awful lot like my C2S. They also add small side skirts and a slightly different front bumper with a little lip at the bottom, tiny differences. The main difference is the power kit but that was an option on the S anyway. Mine........ GTS.........

The GTS also has the wide body of the C4S and turbo.

I don’t think the specific components of a GTS justify that price gaps, but like a lot of cars it’s more than the sum of its part and it’s rarity seem to have made certain models of GTS almost depreciation proof since new, especially manual coupes. Horses for courses, if you really want one you’ll pay, but a C2S won’t leave you feeling short changed in any way.

Should also declare my bias, I bought a 2.5 year old GTS when they were 2-3 k more than a C2S and still have it and love it 8 years later

agree, without driving back to back it's very hard to imagine you'll see a GTS on the road and really feel you're missing out (much the same as a 991 or Boxster S v their GTS brethren) but it is the 'sum of the parts' thing, and limited numbers, certainly manual coupes as said. same as above I have manual coupe GTS so I'm biased

mike150 said: I was wondering exactly that myself just last week when I saw a really nice GTS that looked an awful lot like my C2S. They also add small side skirts and a slightly different front bumper with a little lip at the bottom, tiny differences. The main difference is the power kit but that was an option on the S anyway. Mine........ GTS......... Personally I think they look quite different to each other. Whether the cost difference is justified is another question of course!

g7jhp said: Is a manual 997 GTS really £25-30k better than a manual 997.2 C2S? So you get: - X51 Powerkit - Alcantara Interior - Centre lock wheels - Last of 997 line - GTS badge Of those options, you could argue that some actually make the GTS a bit "worse". Alcantara interior usually comes with the plastic dash and door tops, as opposed to the leather versions usually seen on C2S. The center locks look great, but are overkill and a massive pain for wheel changes in the real world. However, I do think that a low miles GTS will become more valuable in time because of its "last of line, best of the 997 Carreras" position. Its a bit like the C4S & C2S 993s, the 964 Jubilee, the G series CS - they're all last of line special editions which command a premium over the vanilla models. But if you're buying to drive it rather than to "invest", by all means a C2S is 95% of the car and I'd therefore argue a GTS is not worth the premium these days.

RiccardoG said: Of those options, you could argue that some actually make the GTS a bit "worse". Alcantara interior usually comes with the plastic dash and door tops, as opposed to the leather versions usually seen on C2S. The center locks look great, but are overkill and a massive pain for wheel changes in the real world. However, I do think that a low miles GTS will become more valuable in time because of its "last of line, best of the 997 Carreras" position. Its a bit like the C4S & C2S 993s, the 964 Jubilee, the G series CS - they're all last of line special editions which command a premium over the vanilla models. But if you're buying to drive it rather than to "invest", by all means a C2S is 95% of the car and I'd therefore argue a GTS is not worth the premium these days. Fully agree

MC99 said: agree, without driving back to back it's very hard to imagine you'll see a GTS on the road and really feel you're missing out (much the same as a 991 or Boxster S v their GTS brethren) but it is the 'sum of the parts' thing, and limited numbers, certainly manual coupes as said. same as above I have manual coupe GTS so I'm biased Manual coupe GTS here too. There’s two of the 100 right there!

IIRC the front suspension has a slightly different set up (stiffer anti roll bar maybe) and obviously with the wider rear track it will drive differently. The real magic of the GTS is the marriage of the Powerkit engine with the manual gearbox. The engine loves revs and rewards you for taking it to the redline in a way that the standard engine doesn't. Other claims to fame is that It's the only wide body RWD 997 apart from the GT3 RS. It's also I suppose the best version of the last Carrera Porsche made with hydraulic steering. Awesome road cars though I just sold mine after six very happy years...lucky enough to have other flavours of 911 available now and wasn't driving it as much as I should mostly because of lack of garage space at home.

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/6953/9972-porsch...

rosino said: https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/6953/9972-porsch... The 1 Dec 2010 EVO review on the 997 GTS | was more positive tha the Powerkit review on 22 July 2010, so seems like they liked the sun of the parts.

Manual coupe GTS here too. There’s three of the 100 right here

Dc5991 said: Manual coupe GTS here too. There’s three of the 100 right here Same here - that'll be four

g7jhp said: rosino said: https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/6953/9972-porsch... The 1 Dec 2010 EVO review on the 997 GTS | was more positive tha the Powerkit review on 22 July 2010, so seems like they liked the sun of the parts. Often the way with 911’s…991.2 Carrera T being a car that springs to mind. All about the manual box and the power kit engine, the gearing in the manual is just right for British country roads. These are increasingly weekend cars and for me that means the PDK is a lot less appealing. The two things that age a car most are an automated gearbox of some kind as that tech has advanced rapidly and the PCM. One of those can be updated cheaply, the other can’t.

Both good places to put your money for different reasons. Personally I’d rather a tidy manual C2S and make some choice mods. It’s a more sensible price bracket. The GTS is too close to a GT3 to make it worthwhile imo

shantybeater said: Both good places to put your money for different reasons. Personally I’d rather a tidy manual C2S and make some choice mods. It’s a more sensible price bracket. The GTS is too close to a GT3 to make it worthwhile imo I think every thread on a GTS becomes a why not get a GT3 for the same money thread. It’s invalid in my view for the following reasons. No.1 rear seats (that are fully legal/insurance friendly). No2 is like for like cost. I don’t think comparing 2007 GT3 with 50k miles at 80-90k with a 2011 GTS manual coupe with 30k miles at £70k-80k is like for like as the GTS is materially newer and lower mileage and circa £10k cheaper. Compare them like for like and the gap is more like £40-60k for a 2011 car with similar mileage. They do not therefore compete in my mind particularly if you never plan to put either one on track.

shantybeater said: Both good places to put your money for different reasons. Personally I’d rather a tidy manual C2S and make some choice mods. It’s a more sensible price bracket. The GTS is too close to a GT3 to make it worthwhile imo This, £10k more and you are into a GT3. No value in a GTS at todays prices (for manuals).

DjSki said: This, £10k more and you are into a GT3. No value in a GTS at todays prices (for manuals). Bought mine, with Aerokit, for £65k mid 2020. Put 5k miles on it since (now done 20k) and it's worth around £75k. At this rate it'll be worth the same as a .1 GT3 soon, but would I have achieved the same (theoretically) with a 2S?

DjSki said: This, £10k more and you are into a GT3. No value in a GTS at todays prices (for manuals). Still think you are comparing apples and oranges

shantybeater said: Both good places to put your money for different reasons. Personally I’d rather a tidy manual C2S and make some choice mods . It’s a more sensible price bracket. The GTS is too close to a GT3 to make it worthwhile imo What would your choice mods be on a 997.2 C2S?

c4sman said: I think every thread on a GTS becomes a why not get a GT3 for the same money thread. It’s invalid in my view for the following reasons. No.1 rear seats (that are fully legal/insurance friendly). No2 is like for like cost. I don’t think comparing 2007 GT3 with 50k miles at 80-90k with a 2011 GTS manual coupe with 30k miles at £70k-80k is like for like as the GTS is materially newer and lower mileage and circa £10k cheaper. Compare them like for like and the gap is more like £40-60k for a 2011 car with similar mileage. They do not therefore compete in my mind particularly if you never plan to put either one on track. Ok fair point on the seats (although they are next to useless for anyone over the age of 8), but in reality the difference between a 10 year old car vs 15 is bugger all nowadays. Is there a big price difference between a 2000 996 turbo vs a 2005? No. A big deal is made of the .2 iteration because the run of the mil .1’s had a notoriously flawed engine, not something of concern for any 997 GT3 owner. It’s also a little bit like arguing a 2005 E46 330ci is somehow not comparable to a 2000 E46 M3. In my opinion the only reason we are in this predicament where the GTS is so much more valuable over a VERY similar C2S (and valued close to the flagship GT3) is rarity. Edited by shantybeater on Saturday 7th May 22:49

g7jhp said: What would your choice mods be on a 997.2 C2S? A good set of coilovers (tractive?) a sportier exhaust, wheels and a few other bits and bobs to differentiate it from the average 911. I’d want to make it a more focused drive (with the odd track day) so I’d probably go about installing whatever GT3 components (cooling ducts etc) would fit whilst keeping the more docile appearance. Think this but .2 I think it would make a great weekend/occasional track car. The nice thing about buying a closer to base model is it’s more of a blank canvas. If I were to buy again now this is where I would be looking. That or a 987.2 Cayman S Edited by shantybeater on Saturday 7th May 23:05

shantybeater said: Ok fair point on the seats (although they are next to useless for anyone over the age of 8), but in reality the difference between a 10 year old car vs 15 is bugger all nowadays. Is there a big price difference between a 2000 996 turbo vs a 2005? No. A big deal is made of the .2 iteration because the run of the mil .1’s had a notoriously flawed engine, not something of concern for any 997 GT3 owner. It’s also a little bit like arguing a 2005 E46 330ci is somehow not comparable to a 2000 E46 M3. In my opinion the only reason we are in this predicament where the GTS is so much more valuable over a VERY similar C2S (and valued close to the flagship GT3) is rarity. Edited by shantybeater on Saturday 7th May 22:49 On the first point we went out in the GTS yesterday with my average sized 12yo daughter in the back with a degree of comfort (but wouldn’t want to drive her to the south of France!) On the value point I’m going to break with all Pistonheads tradition and admit “I woz wrong”! I actually like your argument and you’ve changed my mind on that point. I’ve owned my GTS for so long and had this GTS vs GT3 discussion for so many years (at least 5 probably on pistonheads) that I hadn’t recognised that things have moved on. 3 or 5 years ago, the age was much more material (GT3 double the age of a GTS). Every year that goes by make that difference less relevant so they do become more and more like for like, so thanks for the updated viewpoint! Sadly (perhaps) I’ve missed my GT3 window as I wouldn’t take it on track and with my ageing years couldn’t tolerate a car with a harder ride than my GTS on my local lumpy roads.

c4sman said: On the first point we went out in the GTS yesterday with my average sized 12yo daughter in the back with a degree of comfort (but wouldn’t want to drive her to the south of France!) On the value point I’m going to break with all Pistonheads tradition and admit “I woz wrong”! I actually like your argument and you’ve changed my mind on that point. I’ve owned my GTS for so long and had this GTS vs GT3 discussion for so many years (at least 5 probably on pistonheads) that I hadn’t recognised that things have moved on. 3 or 5 years ago, the age was much more material (GT3 double the age of a GTS). Every year that goes by make that difference less relevant so they do become more and more like for like, so thanks for the updated viewpoint! Sadly (perhaps) I’ve missed my GT3 window as I wouldn’t take it on track and with my ageing years couldn’t tolerate a car with a harder ride than my GTS on my local lumpy roads. Wow - very unlike PH! To be honest you have the right car if you never intend on tracking and want something a bit special. With .1 GT3's pushing ~100k their added value is only realised with some track time. The .2 C2S looks like a bit of a bargain compared to both as a more usable / customisable car with little guilt. Edited by shantybeater on Sunday 8th May 10:26

shantybeater said: Wow - very unlike PH! To be honest you have the right car if you never intend on tracking and want something a bit special. With .1 GT3's pushing ~100k their added value is only realised with some track time. The .2 C2S looks like a bit of a bargain compared to both as a more usable / customisable car with little guilt. Edited by shantybeater on Sunday 8th May 10:26 Agreed on the .2 C2S. Great car for the money.

GTS's are now mental money. 20k mile manual, £79k. Probably what, £25-30k more than the equivalent 997.2 Carrera S? Great cars but not £80k great. https://911virgin.com/listings/997-gts-manual-tran...

DjSki said: GTS's are now mental money. 20k mile manual, £79k. Probably what, £25-30k more than the equivalent 997.2 Carrera S? Great cars but not £80k great. https://911virgin.com/listings/997-gts-manual-tran... Wow, nice spec tho. Only missing sports chrono which I like but many don’t. Means I’ve got a few years of depreciation proof driving ahead of me!

General disclaimer out of the way - I'm all for choice and if you are spending YOUR money then you should buy what you want, period. Besides, whatever the internet tells you, you will probably already know what you'll end up with and our opinions might not make much of a difference. That said and in the interest of constructive discussion, I do not think a manual GTS is worth the £15-20k premium over PDK. If you REALLY want a manual then save yourself the cash and get a 997.2 C2S. I also wonder how many people chase the "ideal spec" with the idea in mind that they will track the car, only to buy a unicorn that they then never drive with fear of depreciation and/or damage. PS - I have the least PH GTS combination possible and wager that I have as much fun on track as the average fellow driver, sadly some people will just not give other alternatives a chance but that keeps some specs nice and affordable for the rest of us

DjSki said: GTS's are now mental money. 20k mile manual, £79k. Probably what, £25-30k more than the equivalent 997.2 Carrera S? Great cars but not £80k great. https://911virgin.com/listings/997-gts-manual-tran... Last of the best era of modern day 911's.

DjSki said: GTS's are now mental money. 20k mile manual, £79k. Probably what, £25-30k more than the equivalent 997.2 Carrera S? Great cars but not £80k great. https://911virgin.com/listings/997-gts-manual-tran... I know what you mean….however…. In the UK…low miles = + 15 to 20% hike in price over medium mileage cars..so although toppy…it’s probably not out of the ball park… If I was sinking £80k into an immersive, tactile sports car…I’d be considering that…

Obviously you pays your money etc...but £80k gets you into....Mclaren 12c, 997.2 Turbo S, F430, Cayman GT4, 996 GT3, 991.1 GTS, 991.2 Carrera T....etc etc.

DjSki said: Obviously you pays your money etc...but £80k gets you into....Mclaren 12c, 997.2 Turbo S, F430, Cayman GT4, 996 GT3, 991.1 GTS, 991.2 Carrera T....etc etc. find me a manual coupe 997.2 Turbo S for £80K with same mileage of 30K. You can't.

DjSki said: Obviously you pays your money etc...but £80k gets you into....Mclaren 12c, 997.2 Turbo S, F430, Cayman GT4, 996 GT3, 991.1 GTS, 991.2 Carrera T....etc etc. Exactly… So many Porsche’s…so little time * A Mac at £80k is a brave choice IMO, grin inducing acceleration yes, wallet reducing most probably

I know 12c would definitely be a brave choice, I'd love one though, they have aged really well I think, beautiful things. 540/570/650 not quite as classy.

MrVert said: DjSki said: Obviously you pays your money etc...but £80k gets you into....Mclaren 12c, 997.2 Turbo S, F430, Cayman GT4, 996 GT3, 991.1 GTS, 991.2 Carrera T....etc etc. Exactly… So many Porsche’s…so little time * A Mac12c requires a yearly service, or every 10,000 miles, whatever comes first. A google search suggests and average of £1500 per yearly service! A Mac at £80k is a brave choice IMO, grin inducing acceleration yes, wallet reducing most probably

I had a 997 GTS from new for 7 years. A really great car which I used as a daily, plus in North Wales and on the autobahn. It was better in many regards vs my previous 997.1S, but not by the amounts currently reflected in their relative prices now - in my view, anyway. Have had a Boxster 4.0 GTS since early March. It has the same power as the 997 GTS, and is pretty much the same weight and dimensions. If you don't need rear seats I'd definitely consider it or a similar Cayman. It's a sublime car. Really fun to drive, and really easy to have fun with. Think they're going for about £75k-£80k second hand, and will have the best part of a two year warranty, plus it's obviously a much more modern car. Enjoy choosing. As several have said, there are many options out there.

julian987R said: A Mac12c requires a yearly service, or every 10,000 miles, whatever comes first. A google search suggests and average of £1500 per yearly service! Well...exactly...thank you...so its twice as often and twice as expensive to service... It's not the service though, brakes, clutch even replacement batteries can throw up big costs. If you get unlucky timing-wise with a car not under warranty (some of these cars are what 11 years old now) it could be rather expensive compared to a Porsche. A friend of mine ran one for 12 months and did get unlucky, cost him £ 8.5k in that year....ouch! That wasn't even including a service as he traded it just before it was due. We generally moan about the price of OPC servicing and prices, but compared to the costs for Mac / Ferrari / Aston etc etc they're lower and by quite a bit.

Porsches can catch you out too, last one I bought cost me £10k in a year....I'd had it inspected by a highly recommended PPI provider.....who then it turns out hadn't even looked for the bore scoring....ouch and then wouldn't accept that this was a mighty oversight.

996 or 997.1? If one of the above that’s very bad luck if you had an in depth inspection. I feel your pain! At the price point or cars being discussed here (£50 - £80k) it’s not really applicable though.

MrVert said: 996 or 997.1? If one of the above that’s very bad luck if you had an in depth inspection. I feel your pain! At the price point or cars being discussed here (£50 - £80k) it’s not really applicable though. 996 c4s. 65k miles. Really let down by the "premium" inspection firm...who took no responsibility...hard lesson learnt.

DjSki said: Obviously you pays your money etc...but £80k gets you into....Mclaren 12c, 997.2 Turbo S, F430, Cayman GT4, 996 GT3, 991.1 GTS, 991.2 Carrera T....etc etc. I've got a right old bonk on right now for a 991.1 GTS. Been looking at them on AT almost daily for months . £80k of my hard earned would be going there.

Those last NA 3.8 991 GTS's look like much better value.....but then again the 991.1 turbo is very similar money...decisions decisions

DjSki said: GTS's are now mental money. 20k mile manual, £79k. Probably what, £25-30k more than the equivalent 997.2 Carrera S? Great cars but not £80k great. https://911virgin.com/listings/997-gts-manual-tran... Deposit taken. I sold mine a few weeks ago which sold for £80k inside a week through a dealer. They’re very good cars but I think at this level they’re very strong money but so is everything else.

Cheib said: Deposit taken. I sold mine a few weeks ago which sold for 80k inside a week through a dealer. They’re very good cars but I think at this level they’re very strong money but so is everything else. I'm close to putting mine up, manual, <9k miles, blah as values are so good and I can look at something else when I'm ready, 911 Virgin, Ashgoods etc are moving them on for mid-high 70s regularly, whether value or not, someone is paying the prices

Yes. As good as they might be I would still prefer a GT4 to a 997.2 GTS for the same money. At that level of money it’s not a car you keep because of the 4 seats anyways. No brainer to sell here IMHO. And at that money I would buy a CSL if anything.

Yes at £80k there is a lot of choice wether it’s a 911 perhaps the 991.2 flavour or a GT4/Spyder or even something older with change. If you want a coupe and 2seats 987.2S caymans look good value at under £30k!

rosino said: Yes. As good as they might be I would still prefer a GT4 to a 997.2 GTS for the same money. At that level of money it’s not a car you keep because of the 4 seats anyways. No brainer to sell here IMHO. And at that money I would buy a CSL if anything. I bought it for the rear seats but the kids just don't like being in the back that much, the debate is, to go 'big' ( like FF big) or go to 2 seats, which could be GT3 991 or GT4 Cayman - or even the well liked but visually low key 4.0 GTS Boxster/Cayman - I've driven CSLs alot and like them but in the same way people can't see a 997GTS as an 80k car, I can't see a CSL as an 80k car either