How can two 981s be so different? - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

A few weeks ago I test drove a 981 S. I thought it was utterly fantastic. Having test driven an M2, Evora, TTRS, 987, F-Type etc I felt this 981 S stood out as being one of the best cars I’ve ever driven, so I made it my goal to find one in the right spec for me. I then test drove one which was in the right spec for me, the only difference is that this one had PASM and the sport design steering wheel, the other didn’t. I was so disappointed, the steering was mushy (similar to the M2) and not very direct, it was a lot lighter and didn’t give any feedback at all. Is there a difference in steering between specs at all? The cars were identical apart from the two features I mentioned. Thanks

981 had the early EPS, is a noted issue. When I tried it after coming from my hydraulic 987 I must say it was quite disappointing. They appear to have fixed the latest EPS in the 718 however. It’s no hydraulic but I’d say it is vastly improved.

For what it's worth, my 981S has base suspension and sport steering wheel. It's always felt very "secure" on the road. The steering is heavy and precise albeit not strong on feedback. When the car's been in for service they've lent me various 981s in different spec and also a 718. I've never noticed any material difference in the way they feel (apart from the obvious 981/718 engine character). On the other hand when in the past I've been buying used cars (not Porsche) I've been amazed how different one apparently identical car can feel from another. I've always put down to how much wear and tear the particular car has received. I think some drivers are much heavier on cars than others.

PASM, at least on the 987, disconnected the driver a little from the road. Could be that by the sounds of it on the 981 too.

maybe PASM was in "soft" mode? also EPS in very early models may have had some issues that later models didn't suffer from. there's some useful steering discussion here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Tyre pressure, make, size and wear can make a lot of difference between nominally identical cars. If the vehicle has a fairly high mileage then the state of the rubber mounts and bushes will affect steering feel. Wheel alignment too.

Sounds like very different geometry setups to me. There's no difference between them otherwise. Maybe you could ask if there's a geo printout so you could compare?

Lexington59 said: 981 had the early EPS, is a noted issue. When I tried it after coming from my hydraulic 987 I must say it was quite disappointing. They appear to have fixed the latest EPS in the 718 however. It’s no hydraulic but I’d say it is vastly improved. Completely missed the point. Sounds like it could be that PASM wasn’t in sport mode. Mine has PASM, and compared to standard, it’s sharper than standard in sport mode and less sharp in normal to me. Another thing that sharpens things up is the Sport+ mode; the dynamic mounts stiffen and the throttle response sharpens and PASM automatically goes to Sport. Perhaps Sport+ mode was on? If that’s not it then the usual suspects - tyres & pressures, wheel size, condition of bushes all have an effect... oh, and geometry! I’d advise trying another with the above in mind...

The geometry set up on these makes a massive difference.

Just to clarify, I tried sport and sport plus as well as PASM on/off. Edited by AlexNJ89 on Saturday 5th June 23:17

Did the first car (that you loved) have PASM? Or was it either the standard suspension, or perhaps even sports suspension (x73)

n12maser said: Did the first car (that you loved) have PASM? Or was it either the standard suspension, or perhaps even sports suspension (x73) The first car I liked didn't have PASM. It was this car specifically that I liked: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202104221...

There could be many reasons - and doesn’t just apply to Porsches. Two identical cars can feel different, and even the same car can feel different on different days. Could be the roads or even the weather. One thing I have noticed is that, very often, a base model with fewer options can feel nicer than a highly specd model. And, from personal experience, most Porsches improve with mileage.

Koln-RS said: There could be many reasons - and doesn’t just apply to Porsches. Two identical cars can feel different, and even the same car can feel different on different days. Could be the roads or even the weather. One thing I have noticed is that, very often, a base model with fewer options can feel nicer than a highly specd model. And, from personal experience, most Porsches improve with mileage. Interestingly the second car was better specced as it had PASM. Also, the second car had the exhaust popping and banging the entire time when in Sport Plus Mode, the first car didn't do that despite having Sport Chrono and the Sports Exhaust, is that a map or do they all do that?

In my experience, S+ mode with PSE means plenty of pops & bangs.. That’s based on my own 981 Cayman S and a friends 981 Boxter S.

It could be the PASM, I saw a review of a TTRS where it was noted that the car without the Audi equivalent seemed to have better steering feel and feedback. It could equally well be the geometry setup differences between the two cars.

Toltec said: It could be the PASM, I saw a review of a TTRS where it was noted that the car without the Audi equivalent seemed to have better steering feel and feedback. It could equally well be the geometry setup differences between the two cars. I really hope it is, I've been ruling out cars as they don't have PASM but maybe I'd prefer it without.

AlexNJ89 said: Interestingly the second car was better specced as it had PASM. Also, the second car had the exhaust popping and banging the entire time when in Sport Plus Mode, the first car didn't do that despite having Sport Chrono and the Sports Exhaust, is that a map or do they all do that? Here’s the sport vs sport plus summary: S+ is really only for the track imo. There is a benefit of having the PSM kick in much later in the intermediate mode however, but if you have chrono it may be worth keeping a warranty as there appears to be a design fault with dynamic engine mounts failing periodically.

AlexNJ89 said: Interestingly the second car was better specced as it had PASM. Also, the second car had the exhaust popping and banging the entire time when in Sport Plus Mode, the first car didn't do that despite having Sport Chrono and the Sports Exhaust, is that a map or do they all do that? Pops and bangs in sport and sport+.

I don’t have Chrono, but I had thought the backfire was only there in sport based on my last loaner, not sport+.

Passive damping has more feel, and that of course affects the steering. Like I said, I noticed it on my 987, and there’s a reason they don’t put PASM on the Spyders.

TB303 said: Passive damping has more feel, and that of course affects the steering. Like I said, I noticed it on my 987, and there’s a reason they don’t put PASM on the Spyders. Would you also say passive damping has more weight to it too? It would be good to know if it is PASM so I don't waste so much time on test drives.

AlexNJ89 said: Would you also say passive damping has more weight to it too? It would be good to know if it is PASM so I don't waste so much time on test drives. I wouldn’t be confident to say that without comparing back to back, but I did notice an extra layer of disconnection from the driving experience.

Sorry, I’m not trying to be rude and forgive me if I’ve missed something… but if you liked the original one you tried so much, why don’t you just buy it?

Milemuncher said: Sorry, I’m not trying to be rude and forgive me if I’ve missed something… but if you liked the original one you tried so much, why don’t you just buy it? It didn't have the sport design steering wheel and I like the paddles over the buttons. It also wasn't a colour combination I liked.

Oh this is interesting. Perhaps on car had Power Steering Plus and the other didn't? https://www.planet-9.com/threads/is-power-steering...

Three possibilities spring to mind: 1. PASM - this would be the one I suspect 2. Power Steering Plus - I'm not sure what it is supposed to do, but I am sure I remember a Henry Catchpole video where he said it negatively impacted steering feel (although I could be wrong on that one) 3.Tyres/geo. If my first experience of a Porsche had been on Pirellis in the damp I'd never have bought one. Had it been on Michelins, I would have. And did. Geo can make quite a difference to the feel too. I think option 1 is the probable one, however.

My vote would go to geo: maybe the second car's was out or maybe the first one's had been tweaked. Tyres? Possibly. Having driven a variety of Porsche - owners and loaners - in my experience there's not a lot of difference between cars of the same model in 'normal' driving. (In stark contrast, back in the day I had an Escort XR3i which was considered to be a rather good car at the time and I liked pretty much everything about it. I drove one on a Brands experience half-day and the steering was as dull as f k; it was like driving a different car.) Something like a SD steering wheel can be retro-fitted BTW.

PaulD86 said: Three possibilities spring to mind: 1. PASM - this would be the one I suspect 2. Power Steering Plus - I'm not sure what it is supposed to do, but I am sure I remember a Henry Catchpole video where he said it negatively impacted steering feel (although I could be wrong on that one) 3.Tyres/geo. If my first experience of a Porsche had been on Pirellis in the damp I'd never have bought one. Had it been on Michelins, I would have. And did. Geo can make quite a difference to the feel too. I think option 1 is the probable one, however. This is the conclusion I'm coming to too. I think I'll only know once I've driven a few. The reason I don't think it is geo is that the first I drove had heavier steering even on gravel, so unless I have misunderstood the impact of geometry I don't think it'll be that.

When I upgraded to the 718 from my old 981 2.7 the steering was considerably improved. I think there are several versions of EPAS in operation and the earlier ones in the 981 were improved upon significantly in the more recent variants. Ymmv, of course..

My money would be on the geometry being way out, or was it the difference between being able to twiddle the steering with one finger or having to use both hands? Correct/good geometry massively changes the perception and feel of a car, more so in the turn in to a corner

Funkydunc said: My money would be on the geometry being way out, or was it the difference between being able to twiddle the steering with one finger or having to use both hands? Correct/good geometry massively changes the perception and feel of a car, more so in the turn in to a corner The weighting was even different going at 1mph

AlexNJ89 said: The weighting was even different going at 1mph The only things I can think of then, are power steering plus, that adds assistance as speeds drop, or VERY high tyre pressures. There are also by design, ZERO pops and bangs in sport+, so the second car might have been tinkered with. Re-map to add this feature, might also point to fettling in other areas on car two.

Red 5 said: The only things I can think of then, are power steering plus, that adds assistance as speeds drop, or VERY high tyre pressures. There are also by design, ZERO pops and bangs in sport+, so the second car might have been tinkered with. Re-map to add this feature, might also point to fettling in other areas on car two. I think it could be power steering plus too. I'm the kind of guy who likes steering feel even at low speeds. I've watched a few videos on YouTube where sport+ does have pops and bangs. Here's a timestamped example: https://youtu.be/yWxm2FX5dAs?t=486

AlexNJ89 said: I think it could be power steering plus too. I'm the kind of guy who likes steering feel even at low speeds. I've watched a few videos on YouTube where sport+ does have pops and bangs. Here's a timestamped example: https://youtu.be/yWxm2FX5dAs?t=486 Strange isn’t it! Porsche have specifically added them to sport mode along with the artificially sharp throttle, just for fun/drama and test drive apeal. Sport+ is supposed to have progressive throttle map, plus zero pops, so the cars can be used on track without contravening SPL limits (as much) They occurr at frequencies most likely to excite a trackside meter. I do know it’s one of the most popular things to program in, during remap type fettling.

Red 5 said: Strange isn’t it! Porsche have specifically added them to sport mode along with the artificially sharp throttle, just for fun/drama and test drive apeal. Sport+ is supposed to have progressive throttle map, plus zero pops, so the cars can be used on track without contravening SPL limits (as much) They occurr at frequencies most likely to excite a trackside meter. I do know it’s one of the most popular things to program in, during remap type fettling. Mine (unmodified) pops and bangs in Sport plus, always has done

When I get an 981 I may even see if I can map out the pops and crackles. I wonder if it's a PSE thing?

Sport activates the PSE if you have it, I had thought activating S+ turned it off. Which presumably makes sense if it's mainly a track mode. So I guess you can override it and toggle the PSE switch back on in S+ if so desired.

Sport+ activates PSE if fitted, PASM in sport mode and adds more pops & bangs on mine. All can be toggled on/off so in S+ you can just have the bits of it you want with the much crisper throttle response S+ gives. It’s an option I wouldn’t do without now. Previously I didn’t give it too much stock but it’s rare for me to drive in any other mode - I just turn PASM/PSE to normal to suit. Only on a motorway run would I use S or normal modes. Otherwise it’s hard to see why you wouldn’t want the throttle response alone unless you’re concerned about fuel consumption. Edited by Royal Jelly on Monday 14th June 07:10

Firstly, forget any with push/pull buttons on the steering wheel. Go for the paddles. Nobody will want one with the buttons when you come to sell. I tried five standard suspension cars before the PASM version I bought. Standard was OK, but PASM gave more comfort in normal mode, which suits me, and a firmer ride in Sport setting. Maybe you didn't like either of these and preferred the middle setting of the standard suspension? I'd rate PASM as one of my top three "must haves" in speccing a car. PSE wouldn't even reach my bottom three - awful droning at 70mph. Gave me a headache in a courtesy car. Have you tried a 2.7? I preferred it to the 3.4, but then I preferred normal and 14 way seats!

DJMC said: Firstly, forget any with push/pull buttons on the steering wheel. Go for the paddles. Nobody will want one with the buttons when you come to sell. I tried five standard suspension cars before the PASM version I bought. Standard was OK, but PASM gave more comfort in normal mode, which suits me, and a firmer ride in Sport setting. Maybe you didn't like either of these and preferred the middle setting of the standard suspension? I'd rate PASM as one of my top three "must haves" in speccing a car. PSE wouldn't even reach my bottom three - awful droning at 70mph. Gave me a headache in a courtesy car. Have you tried a 2.7? I preferred it to the 3.4, but then I preferred normal and 14 way seats! Can you have the switchable exhaust without the PSE? Thanks for your feedback on PASM, I'll give another one a go when on comes up.

AlexNJ89 said: Can you have the switchable exhaust without the PSE? . No, afaik, unless done aftermarket. That said even without PSE, the exhaust note will still change when switched into sport mode.

DJMC said: Firstly, forget any with push/pull buttons on the steering wheel. Go for the paddles. Nobody will want one with the buttons when you come to sell. I tried five standard suspension cars before the PASM version I bought. Standard was OK, but PASM gave more comfort in normal mode, which suits me, and a firmer ride in Sport setting. Maybe you didn't like either of these and preferred the middle setting of the standard suspension? I'd rate PASM as one of my top three "must haves" in speccing a car. PSE wouldn't even reach my bottom three - awful droning at 70mph. Gave me a headache in a courtesy car. Have you tried a 2.7? I preferred it to the 3.4, but then I preferred normal and 14 way seats! +1 re the paddles On 20in wheels I'd defo have PASM - I think it's really good. On 19s it's desirable but not essential. PSE? I tend not to press the 'listen to me I'm a knob' button but in my experience (981 GTS and 991 T) it makes no difference to the sound/noise at a steady cruise. See what you think.

Maxym said: +1 re the paddles On 20in wheels I'd defo have PASM - I think it's really good. On 19s it's desirable but not essential. PSE? I tend not to press the 'listen to me I'm a knob' button but in my experience (981 GTS and 991 T) it makes no difference to the sound/noise at a steady cruise. See what you think. Yes, mine's on 20's. I had PSE off in the courtesy 981 and the drone was still noticeable compared to no PSE at all.

Geo will affect how it feels at 1mph, you can really make a wheel feel light or heavy with small adjustments to geo. You can totally dial out any of that light feel just off centre, but you may then find the steering a bit busy on the motorway, but well worth it.

DJMC said: Yes, mine's on 20's. I had PSE off in the courtesy 981 and the drone was still noticeable compared to no PSE at all. I thought the drone in the GTS was due to some type of 'sound symposer' that is fitted and what most owners complain about?

Armitage.Shanks said: I thought the drone in the GTS was due to some type of 'sound symposer' that is fitted and what most owners complain about? I didn't think my GTS sounded much different to my S, any artificial sound notwithstanding.