997 GT3 geo at Center Gravity. - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I picked up my 997.1 GT3 in December, and have always felt the front end was a bit vague. I mostly put this down to a combination of Cup2s, cold and wet roads and 911 weight distribution, plus the fact that my other car is a track geo'd CSL which was running 3 degrees of negative front camber. Having booked to take the GT3 to Spa and the 'ring next month, I wanted to get the geo tweaked and have the suspension given the once over, and having read so much about CG and enjoyed the recent Podcast Chris did with Colin Hoad, I booked it in. The test drive proved my feelings of vagueness and once up on the ramps, Pete's suspicions were confirmed - the front end had toe out and very little negative camber, plus asymmetry between left and right. Everything was thoroughly checked and tested and despite the fact that car has done 70k miles and spent a lot of time on track, everything was in good working order and a testament to how well it has been maintained by the previous owners. Tweaking away while we all drank tea and ate biscuits, their depth of knowledge and love for what they do shone through. Another 997 was on the other ramp, having a full suspension refresh and I enjoyed watching Chris and Pete at work and chatting to the other owner. 4 hours after arriving, my car was rolled out of the workshop and we hopped in to experience the results. Wow. What a difference! The car now feels like how I imagined a GT3 should feel, to the point that I turned in too early for the first few corners as the responsiveness was on a different planet! All of the vagueness has gone and although the car tramlines ever so slightly due to the camber, I am used to this and think it's a very small compromise to live with on a car such as the GT3. Can't wait to get the car on track now.

Glad it’s worked for you, Chris did mine last month. Would you mind sharing your geo, I am curious how mine compares, feel free to DM if you prefer.

Good work Mine will get Franklined this year I first went to him with my 964 shortly after he started cg. How things have moved on

I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. Well, if they don't happen often there would not be a whole industry, including CofG, that checks for and corrects the problem. Second the changes are often subtle and missed if you have nothing to compare with (as is the case if it's your first GT3). Plus the OP did think something was awry.

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. If the OP thought the car was good with the exception of geo related issues, why wouldn’t he buy it? It’s not like there are thousands of these cars to choose from.

might come as a surprise to some but not all gt3 owners are as enthusiastic as some others

BrotherMouzone said: ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. If the OP thought the car was good with the exception of geo related issues, why wouldn’t he buy it? It’s not like there are thousands of these cars to choose from. Yes understood I'm not questioning the OP I'm confused how the PO could let the car get so bad. I've bought 2 x 996 cars and both had some toe out at the front and other discrepancies in much the same way as mentioned by the OP. So 2 out of 2 cars I have bought and both way out - not just slightly out. I'm genuinely interested. Perhaps its a healthy reminder to get my older car checked as I've had it now 5 years.

The deterioration is iterative - think boiling frog. Add to that, as RC1 says, not all GT3’s are track slags anyway (so would not want heaps of camber) and get checked very seldom, you can see why, easily. When I had TVRs the high compression engines were prone to oil starvation on rearmost cam lobes. I had mine swapped at just 30k miles, after noting a drop off in power, even though I’d always warmed the engine up properly etc. The specialist garage was saying it was not uncommon to have customers unknowingly driving about with only 6 or 7 cylinders on full compression.

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. I'd say 80% of Ferraris over 7 years old are driving around on sub-standard (due to age) tyres and questionable geo set ups. With Porsche I suspect the percentage with old/substandard tyres is lower (primarily because the cars are more likely to actually be used) so probably/hopefully closer to 40-50%, but many will no doubt have less than perfect geometry, so there's still a lot of 996/997s driving around with sub-optimal geo set ups and ride heights. But one mustn't forget, the buyer demographic has changed massively over the past two and half decades, there's an ever increasing amount of badge jockeys driving the Stuttgart brand now, many of which won't appreciate just how adjustable their 911's suspension is, nor what a difference it makes to the way they drive. And let's not forget the geo set up on your CSR was massively sub-optimal IIRC ?

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. Not every geo you have done is as good as CG, I had a car done by Chris last year, I’d owned it for six months. Had previously had a geo at a well known Porsche specialist that people on here speak very highly of. To be fair they’d got the corner weights bang on (Chris said its extremely rare for a car to come in with them bang on) They’d got too much rake on the car which had resulted in a load of toe in on the rear wheels. How the car had been allowed out of the other specialist is beyond me having been educated by Chris. Once he’d worked his magic the car came alive….steering was so much lighter because the rear end was fighting steering inputs and is now a joy to drive.

Galahad said: No secrets regarding my geo as it's how I like the car - everyone's tastes and requirements are different. Front is -2.35 camber, +8.3 caster and +0.03 toe Rear is -2.05 camber and -0.15 toe. I surprised by the rear toe.

ATM said: I surprised by the rear toe. My bad! Just checked again and it's +0.15....

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. It wasn't terrible before, just a bit vaguer than I'd expect a GT3 should be, especially when compared with my other car that has had a recent geo and felt very pointy in comparison. The guys at CG did say that it's amazing how many cars they get in where the drivers don't know something is wrong with it, or just think that's the way it's meant to be. I think a lot of people buy nice cars to cruise around and be seen in, rather than to actually drive properly (and there's nothing at all wrong with that, it's just not why I own nice cars). No secrets regarding my geo as it's how I like the car - everyone's tastes and requirements are different. Front is -2.35 camber, +8.3 caster and +0.03 toe Rear is -2.05 camber and +0.15 toe. I'm running Cup 2s and plan to do 4-5 track days and at least 1 'ring trip per year. CG said that if I was running PS4S and not planning any track days, they'd recommend to be closer to factory geo, which is about -1.35 camber front and rear. Rear ARB is full stiff, front one is mid setting. Edited by Galahad on Monday 11th April 08:31

You have been given the Ronald Kussmaul (Weissach Chassis Guru/Factory Race Driver/Paris-Dakar Winner) settings pretty much. Makes for a very predictable and very easy to read car. Enjoy the "journey" - I have an E46 M3 as a second fun car to keep the miles off my 996.1 Club Sport and it's nice to have the contrast between the two platforms.

Nice, I'm looking forward to having my Carrera 997 done soon! Out of curiosity, has anyone else been asked to pay a deposit to book their car in at CG?

RiccardoG said: Out of curiosity, has anyone else been asked to pay a deposit to book their car in at CG? Seem to recall CG had a post on social recently, due to many cancellations. Might only apply to new customers.

RiccardoG said: Nice, I'm looking forward to having my Carrera 997 done soon! Out of curiosity, has anyone else been asked to pay a deposit to book their car in at CG? Personal view alert If you just want a geo and have a fairly standard vanilla car then I'm not sure its worth paying CG £200 for a geo. Obviously if you want to then thats fine. Trickier dampers with adjustable ride height, adjustable top mounts, adjustable suspension and adjustable anti roll bars all add to the mix and might make a CG session more worth while. But for a standard car and largely standard or basic bit of adjustment type geo I dont see the value. Its also a nightmare getting a booking. I tried a few years ago and gave up after 3 attempts. My geo place is open Saturday and you just arrive and queue. No bookings required. My mate recently took his car to CG to get his suspension checked over and he asked them about this geo place we have both used and CG said they do a good job so thats good enough for me. I dont want to mention them as it seems like I am trying to leech business for them which is not my intention. I'm just trying to highlight that a simpler car doesn't necessarily require the services of someone like CG if you just want a simple geo and nothing else.

BrotherMouzone said: Seem to recall CG had a post on social recently, due to many cancellations. Might only apply to new customers. Seems not unreasonable to me. There's just 2 ramps and 2 guys, so if anyone fails to turn up, it puts a decent dent in their revenue. They aren't like any ordinary, jobbing indie or garage where there will be long-term rebuild/refurb jobs to fall back onto.

ATM said: Trickier dampers with adjustable ride height, adjustable top mounts, adjustable suspension and adjustable anti roll bars all add to the mix and might make a CG session more worth while. But for a standard car and largely standard or basic bit of adjustment type geo I dont see the value. They transformed my 1973 911 which is a totally standard car with little of what you describe above. They transformed it despite it having been seen at another very well known Porsche specialist who are well known for working on cars with all the bells and whistles you describe above. With respect I'd completely disagree with your view. They've also done the suspension set up on my 991.2 GT3...did a great job with both

Cheib said: ATM said: Trickier dampers with adjustable ride height, adjustable top mounts, adjustable suspension and adjustable anti roll bars all add to the mix and might make a CG session more worth while. But for a standard car and largely standard or basic bit of adjustment type geo I dont see the value. They transformed my 1973 911 which is a totally standard car with little of what you describe above. They transformed it despite it having been seen at another very well known Porsche specialist who are well known for working on cars with all the bells and whistles you describe above. With respect I'd completely disagree with your view. They've also done the suspension set up on my 991.2 GT3...did a great job with both Understood Older pork has some serious voodoo and dark arts involved. I'd say these are far from a standard car. A vanilla 991 would be a different story. There isn't much you can adjust. I'd say vanilla 991 its fine to go anywhere you respect. 991 GT3 a different story - these are not standard cars. But yes I realise I'm coming across as an internet warrior who pretends to know everything even though I have never had a 1973 911 and never had a 991 GT3. Its your money - its your choice. For simple geo I think other places are fine. But I understand CG get some gold stars from a lot of the Pork community so I'm sure they do a good job. I did watch the Porsche owners club video they did - did anyone else see it?

Galahad said: Front is -2.35 camber, +8.3 caster and +0.03 toe Rear is -2.05 camber and +0.15 toe. I'm running Cup 2s and plan to do 4-5 track days and at least 1 'ring trip per year. CG said that if I was running PS4S and not planning any track days, they'd recommend to be closer to factory geo, which is about -1.35 camber. Edited by Galahad on Monday 11th April 08:31 Interesting how extreme the neg camber is for a road car.

Galahad said: No secrets regarding my geo as it's how I like the car - everyone's tastes and requirements are different. Front is -2.35 camber, +8.3 caster and +0.03 toe Rear is -2.05 camber and +0.15 toe. I'm running Cup 2s and plan to do 4-5 track days and at least 1 'ring trip per year. CG said that if I was running PS4S and not planning any track days, they'd recommend to be closer to factory geo, which is about -1.35 camber front and rear. Rear ARB is full stiff, front one is mid setting. Edited by Galahad on Monday 11th April 08:31 Thanks for sharing, I have moved to PS4S as I have used my car exclusively for road trips over the last 3 years. I have a couple of track days booked this summer more as a taster rather becoming a serious track day driver, well until the bug bites anyway. This is the set up I now have, plus an increase in rear height back to standard, both anti roll bars are medium setting. The steering is now quite light rather than meaty and matching the hefty clutch and gear change. If I wanted a bit more weight to the steering again what needs to be tweaked and what to? Any advice appreciated. Thanks

ATM said: I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad. People drive around with flat tyres without realising, or caring. Do you seriously expect an average driver to even notice, let alone give a monkeys?!

LemonTart said: The steering is now quite light rather than meaty and matching the hefty clutch and gear change. If I wanted a bit more weight to the steering again what needs to be tweaked and what to? Any advice appreciated. First thing to look at is the camber. Compare yours to OP's. You can put a lot of -ve camber onto the GT3 platform. Of course the issue then is to will track and nose around on ruts and imperfections on the road surface, so will feel more nervy and less settled. On track though, it was corner better. Ideally though, getting someone 'proper' to change the settings is the best bet. FWIW, I used CG a long time back for my previous car, a 996 turbo when I started tracking it. I don;t use them these days, so my endorsement is not some play to get 'mates rates' but rather as a result of my own positive experience. I only don't use them because all the other service is done by Sports & Classic, with whom I've now got a setup I'm extremely happy with and that just gets re-checked annually.

LemonTart said: If I wanted a bit more weight to the steering again what needs to be tweaked and what to? Any advice appreciated. I thought Caster adjusts steering weight and feel? Spacers also which affect the scrub radius. Assuming you have none on now you could add some. I went in hard on one of my 996 and added 15mm spacers without knowing it would affect the steering feel so much. I realise 15mm is a bit extreme. Definitely added weight to the steering and - probably obvious - lost some sparkle or chatter.

I had some 5mm spacer which I thought I'd use on the front (997 GT3s have 5mm rear spacers from the factory) but when CG looked, the front end had already been shimmed (unsure what part exactly, but he said the track was now 5mm wider at each side than stock, so spacers weren't needed) which he said suggested it had been setup for serious track use in the past at some point. If anyone wants to buy some Porsche 5mm spacers, drop me a PM. Edited by Galahad on Monday 11th April 16:36

ATM said: Personal view alert If you just want a geo and have a fairly standard vanilla car then I'm not sure its worth paying CG £200 for a geo. Obviously if you want to then thats fine. Thanks, I do welcome the thoughts. I've already had my trusted Porsche specialist renew the 4x shocks and some suspension arms and do a geo, but the car still doesn't feel right to me. My reason for wanting to go to CG is that I believe they're the best place to have a good eye at a 15yr old 997 and make it drive like new again. So its a bit more than just having the geo done, I'm after a full chassis refresh. I don't do track and my car is stock, mind. And yes, Holly has been great at helping with the bookings but it IS a pain and means a day off work...

It’s very clear that some contributors haven’t actually used CG’s services, and thus really aren’t in a position to judge whether the services they offer are worthwhile. They aren’t cheap, but book a session with them, and you’ll understand why they’re not. There are two ways of doing ANY job : The right way, and the wrong way. Chris and his team don’t take shortcuts, and won’t waste your time, or theirs, doing a geo set up on a car with worn components, because ultimately they want you to go away appreciating the full extent of what they do, and the effect it has on your car’s handling and grip, and they apply the same care and diligence whether it’s a “base” 991.2 or a Mk 1 996 GT3. Whilst “near enough” may suffice for many alleged “specialists”, it’s not the CG way, which is to set everything up as accurately as humanely possible, or fix the issue/s to ensure it can be set up accurately. And if that means working until 8, 9, 10 or 11pm at night, so be it. I’d suggest anyone who considers their services “not worthwhile” because a car has “less adjustability” is rather missing the point, because irrespective of how few components can be adjusted, the ones that can, need to be adjusted accurately to ensure the car handles optimally. As regards the setting up of air cooled 911’s being some kind of “black magic”, rest assured it’s not, and the individual who told me that, was none other than Chris Franklin himself I speak from experience having been CG’s first Porsche customer 15 years ago. There are some good geo guys out there, but they’re few and far between (and Mike at S&C is one of them, but he’s also an excellent technician period) so if you do find one, look after them, as their abilities can be transformational for your car’s handling, balance and grip. And finally, please don’t buy into the whole lack of transparency when it comes to certain companies not divulging the settings they’ve applied to your car, because to put it bluntly, if you’ve paid for it, you’re entitled to a printout that shows those numbers, and I’d be tempted to give any company that’s not transparent in such matters, a wide berth.

I'm taking delivery of a 997.1 manual next week, a long time ambition of mine to own one to complement my NSX. It's already booked into Center Gravity (they're booked up till June that says it all really!) for a setup. It makes sense to me if I am buying a 911 at last to make sure it drives as intended. I recently had my track car set up by the factory and the difference is night and day, setup is everything so I'm sure it's money well spent. (apologies Slippydiff I did not realise there was an original username! Presumably there are 98 others?)

My take on using them was as follows. I'm poor and tight so all my Porsche's over the years (924T / 964C4 / 968 Sport / 986) have been at the bottom of the market / poverty spec. When I bought a 996 C2 Manual Coupe (Autofarm rebuilt) for a really good price, I didn't really like it from a ride and handling perspective. The car had been to general Geo providers and everything was within tolerance. Took it to a couple of 'general' marque specialists in the South East, all of whom have good reputations on here. Stock answer was a shrug and 'needs new shocks / springs / arms / ......' the whole lot, and it probably did. But to invest £3-4k on something you've not in love with was a leap of faith I wasn't keen on making. CG ran a January offer to run through the chassis and make recommendations was to what's required, for £150 from memory. If you have work carried out, the £150 gets knocked off the bill. For those who haven't been, they go into a forensic level of assessment way before it goes near the geo kit. This is far from exhaustive, but tyre general inspection, pressures, tread depths, ride heights from various points, they have 'known good' tyres if yours aren't right, every bush, connection, arm gets inspected and assessed. Probably well over an hour from memory. Road assessment, I can't recall if this was before or after, but talking you through the handling characteristics across a number of different road surfaces and conditions. Plus the roundabout test! Damper efficiency tester, which giggles the car to see how effective your shocks are (he was happy with mine). Chris listened to my brief and he proposed a prioritised list which we agreed on. It was a long way from the 'everything needs doing' I'd had from others. It was about £1,500 worth of a real mixed bag of bits and pieces. Couple of arms, joints, mounts, bushes plus the geo, which almost feels like the simple bit at the end. Felt like they offer really good value. Stuff like, whilst we have this component off, we can replace this other part, no labour impact, and the part was like £30. All in all it totally transformed the car. I mean, totally transformed it. It was like the car was telepathic, and worked with you to get round corners so crisply. I so wish I'd taken it to them as soon as I'd bought the car. I don't think you can compare their level of scrutiny and assessment to most geo providers, unless they're spending at least half a day on it. As I said the geo section of the process, felt like the easy bit at the end.

Had my weeks old to me 2009 C2S Cab checked by a Porsche indie who found coffin arm wear, front discs under recommended thickness, steering link wear* Chris confirmed it all & a bit more, so the car was in with CG for 3 days. They lent me a Boxster that they'd done some voodoo on, which was great fun. In the end Chris sharpened his pencil & got the bill to under 2 grand, just. The handling was needless to say transformed. Especially important in a Cab. But its the feeling of confidence that your car now handles like new, or arguably better. These cars deserve & respond to having THE BEST work done on them. Chris kindly wrote me report on the faults he found which I took to the Small Claims Court. So I got a big piece of the cost back from the charlatan that sold me the car.

What people don’t appreciate is that many places can put a decent geometry on a car. Few will dive into the specific requirements of the owner. Fewer still have the time to go into forensic detail on which components, large or small, are past best. My own car has had every linkage replaces with RSS ball jointed adjustable items, so there’s no need for me to do anything other than get Sports & Classic to do setup. We’re I buying a used 911/Cayman/Boxster, then I’d say a trip to CG is going to make huge gains.