Wanted to offer some objective feedback on those considering software / tuning options. For those who might have seen, I purchased
cmargosi
’s Vision built 4.0L motor this past season after putting god knows how many track/race miles on my stock 3.4. It was time.
Years ago (15+) I was heavy into tuning including having one of the first AEM boxes they produced. As such, I naively thought I was fairly well educated on the matter. I made a number of phone calls to figure out how I was to tune this motor. My options were ranging from a full stand-alone (like the AEM box,) a standard flash (like a Softronic,) to other tuneable solutions using the oem hardware like Open Flash Tablet. Scott from Softronic encouraged me to buy the ecu with the flash that was used on the motor (mind you this would not have netted him much money at all other than changing the immobilizer codes in the ecu.) I didn’t like this idea as the ecu was tuned for 100 octane. The AEM didn’t seem like a good idea either, as I heard of some horror stories (even 15 years later) of them doing flakey things…..and I have zero interest in that stuff anymore. Only racing. Soooo, I landed on the ‘tuneable’ option using the oem hardware.
After putting the car on the dyno it made 358 and 330 respectively. The tuner (Jeff Evans, who’s really really good btw) showed me how the ecu works. I was shocked as my entire experience was a lot of open and closed loop stuff - where you could easily destroy a car. Low and behold, there was very little for him to do as the damn Bosch ecu’s are so fast and basically learn (a point of education.) Off the dyno, and straight to the track the next day.
Turn 1 the check engine light came on. After turn 3, the car felt like it was breathing through a straw - I was down 10 mph on the straight. I pulled the data from the AIM and sure enough the car was running on 50% throttle…intermittently no less. To cut to the chase, over the next 70 days, probably 10 days testing at the track (car can’t be driven on the street,) who knows how many phone calls with Adrian at F.A.S.T. Auto Racing - I did the following:
· Replaced the MAF (had a code)
· Checked countless fuses
· Added the secondary o2’s back in the exhaust system (had the Softronic flash previously, so they were zipped tied to the trans mount.) On the recommendation from OFT, this would cause the car to run incorrectly. If it was something else he’d have to dig through data logs to be provided by me, but couldn’t get to it for a while.
· Swapped throttle bodies
· Measured continuity across countless places
· Replaced the Alt & starter (car was hard starting anyway)
After yet another frustrating day I called Scott (again) for insight. He felt it could be a number of things, the most likely culprit a torque limiter in the ecu designed to protect the drivetrain (given the increase in displacement.) I also called Jeff Evans and his guess was that the OFT was not developed enough to do what I was trying to do. This is not to say that it couldn’t be, but I’d have to partner with OFT and do a lot of testing/data logging for them to expand their product to support my needs. His recommendation was either take this approach, go back to a standard flash, or call Haltech as he felt that the most stable platform for the money. Finally, I ran all this by Adrian from F.A.S.T. and he too felt it was either the hardware or a software problem given all of the troubleshooting to date.
Hearing this, I wanted to eliminate both the software and hardware from the equation, so graciously
cmargosi
sent me his old ecu (in case it was a hardware issue.) In turn I sent both ecus to Scott. He matched the immobilizer code to my car, and flashed both ecu’s with a tune for the 4.0L / 93 octane. I tested both ecus and the car fired perfectly on both. I elected to leave my original in the car to test to see if it was hardware. Well this weekend I was on track and eureka…..the car ran flawlessly. It turned out to be a limitation in software.
This is not a knock in anyway on the OFT as it seems to work fine for a standard 3.4. That said, if I had gone with Softronic to begin with, my car would have been right from the start. I learned a TON through this process (including how impressive 10 year old Bosch electronics are.) I can’t say enough about Scott and how supportive he was. He did exactly what he said he would, was on time with everything – impeccable customer service. If you’re in the market for software for these cars, I’d really recommend working with Softronic.
In short - the car is an animal (more so than it already was.) Big big big thanks to:
·
cmargosi
for the support and providing me a backup ecu
· Adrian for helping me trouble shoot this thing (if you’re in the north east I’d highly recommend those guys to work on your track/race car….first Corvette to finish the 25 hours of Thunderhill last year, or their countless wins in NASA and the SCCA.)
· Softronic for the obvious….
Now I can finally move to sorting the car as opposed to just getting it to run right. GTS4 be damned
(pics....just because)
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http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m521/g_t1/Porsche/2017_Porsche_Early/2017_05_Cayman_2.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m521/g_t1/Porsche/2017_Porsche_Early/2017_05_Cayman.jpg
So, you installed a 4.0L engine and originally did not want to buy the correct ECU with tune for it?
Why did you think that you could modify the 3.4L ECU and tune better than the 4.0L ECU and tune available for sale?
It seems to me, that if spending the money for a 4.0L swap, it is penny wise pound foolish not to buy the proper and already tested and proven ECU for the new engine.
Guess my post wasn't clear. It was, and is still a 3.4L ecu running the car.
The difference was getting software to develop a custom/modifiable flash via dyno tuning (which is typical for custom setups / swaps on other platforms,) vs. using a flash provided from Softronic which is closed an can never be modified by anyone but Scott. As you articulated the point behind the thread - I should have just gone with Softronic from the start. Hence me posting to share the experience with others, so they do not repeat my mistake and to just go with Softronic from the start.
I see your point now, wanting an ecu that allows you to tweak the tune vs a locked ecu that only Scott can tweak at his pleasure and on your dime.
I think for me, not having the knowledge of how to modify an ecu for an engine, I would just buy the known package that works.
What was the final cost of the 4.0L swap/upgrade?
I think a naturally aspirated 4.0 is the best upgrade available.
Do they bore and stroke your block? Or is it a different block?
Do you know any specifics on the internals? i.e crank, connecting rods, cam shafts, etc.
Do you get a list of options? Or is it a prepackaged item?
Thanks
You are so right. I am engineer by schooling, and have a pretty good grasp on combustion engines, thermodynamics, etc. etc. And oh boy how things have changed since I screwed with this stuff a 15-20 years ago. The Bosch stuff is so advanced, and even the 'newer' cars (mine is an 06) are so integrated with every on-board system it takes someone WAAAY smarter than me (enter Scott) to do this stuff right. Its basically electrical engineering anymore.....100% I should not have tried to take this on. Hubris.
My motor was a total exception when it comes to cost. I bought it for cmargosi without a core charge, and it had 30 hours on it so it was discounted from what Vision originally charged. My original engine had 150+ race hours on it and was on borrowed time. The cores are so high, that I decided to be proactive and pull my original while it still had value before it let go in spectacular fashion (as they all do.) So I was able to buy a discounted motor, avoid the core charge all together, and sell my motor for a rebuild candidate - so overall I paid far less than what others typically do.
Typically its a little over $20k+ by the time its all said and done once you get the core credit. So call it $22k out of pocket, but I did all my own installation, swap, etc. etc. This is not a cheap investment. However, the car is much much faster and the motor is built for racing. I was at Pocono this past weekend doing 140+ into Nascar turn 1 which made for the dreaded sustained high speed left hander.....the motor is built / modified so that it won't starve for oil like any number of the stock motors that let go in this scenario.
The motor in question - 997.1 3.6l bored out to a 4.0l. From memory - it has larger weisco pistons 12:1, forged rods/stock length, stock crank, custom single piece sleeves, stock cams, and a ton of oiling mods to fix Porsche's garbage design on the gen 1's.
The best option IMO, is the Vision 3.4l-->3.8l swap. It utilizes the same block, all the same parts to bolt in, and can utilize the exact same flash from Softronic that the 3.4l uses (mine required a flash for a swap where as the 3.8's don't....I think, but I'm not so confident in my knowledge anymore for obvious reasons.) These swaps are way cheaper and less complicated as its all cayman stuff with just bigger pistons. I was going this route until cmargosi posted his motor, hence I got lucky.
