GT4/Spyder engine failures - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

I saw this topic over at pff.de that mentions multiple engine failures in GT4s and Spyders, all with relatively low milage. https://www.pff.de/porsche/index.php?thread/276471... Three of them had piston seizures, all on cylinder #4, possibly due to insufficient cooling. Racing Erich (= Ehresmann Automotive, posting #124 and #131 in that topic) has heard of multiple engine failures defective spark plugs where the electrode breaks off and falls into the cylinder. My car is going to arrive soon and I wanted to check if there's anything that can be done to prevent this.

Are these cars that have been tracked heavily? Is there any mention of numbers of failures?

v8ksn said: Are these cars that have been tracked heavily? Is there any mention of numbers of failures? Isn't the engine just a de-tuned Carrera S engine? Is there any reason why it should suffer from any new issues?

swimd said: I saw this topic over at pff.de that mentions multiple engine failures in GT4s and Spyders, all with relatively low milage. https://www.pff.de/porsche/index.php?thread/276471... Three of them had piston seizures, all on cylinder #4, possibly due to insufficient cooling. Racing Erich (= Ehresmann Automotive, posting #124 and #131 in that topic) has heard of multiple engine failures defective spark plugs where the electrode breaks off and falls into the cylinder. My car is going to arrive soon and I wanted to check if there's anything that can be done to prevent this. Very worrying. I thought the latest Porsche DFI engines have done a great deal to significantly reduce the dreaded engine failures that have been seen on 996, Gen 1 997 & earlier Boxster & Caymen. Scored bores etc Poor cooling seems to have been a contributing factor to earlier engines (hence some owners fitted low temp thermostats). The guys at Hartech have done quite a bit of research in this area (plenty of reading material on their web site). I'am sure I read somewhere that Porsche had a challenge wrt cooling the 911 engine that is fitted to the GT4 & 981 Spyder due to space. Your GT4 will have a three year Porsche warranty which will cover replacement engine in the event of a full engine failure (but some folk maybe put off buying a used porker with a refitted engine. Its a bit like some people would be put off buying a house that has been treated for subsidence). Personally, when my Spyder lands I shall be following careful running-in which may help (under 4K revs for first 2000 miles).

Happy to buy a Spyder at list

sidicks said: Isn't the engine just a de-tuned Carrera S engine? Is there any reason why it should suffer from any new issues? Good point!

Probably all the 1st owners who did not run them in

sidicks said: v8ksn said: Are these cars that have been tracked heavily? Is there any mention of numbers of failures? Isn't the engine just a de-tuned Carrera S engine? Is there any reason why it should suffer from any new issues? different (maybe less) cooling? no clue, just an idea.

Happy to take a chocolate-engined GT4 of an owner's hand if required. Want to do my bit to help the poor souls!

woollyjoe said: The engine is in a different place. Mid engines notoriously harder to cool. Not saying that's why - just that this is the main difference. I always thought Porsche had such long gearing on purpose to limit the amount of revs through the engine. Day to day driving won't see 8k revs as we tend to change around 4k revs. When we do run it out, it is very rare because you are at illegal speeds on the road in second gear. You're making me depressed reading that! Very rare that we'll 'run it out' ? Are you a policeman? C'mon chaps... go and drive the thing! Ive done 500 miles this week on some of Wales' best roads plus Evo triangle etc etc and rev'd it to about 8k about 100 times having now done 2000 miles in 4 weeks of ownership! I heard about these engines failing about 6 months ago, so to me this is old news... I had a 996 C4S a few years ago, fitted the low temp thermo etc and had no issues. Only about 5% of cars were affected where the IMS was an issue. You'll only hear about the bad stuff so a couple of failed engines is nothing normal and to be expected. Worrying about it and pampering your car won't make a blind bit of difference.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would the 3.8 be harder to cool than the 3.4?

just had a read of some of the pff thread with attention to post 124 and it appears to be early engines suffering with sparkplug/coilpack failure and not engine specific! so I would not worry too much as dfi engine is pretty proven and you now have gt4 clubsport which any problems would show up in racing! just to add no failures posted since last year and perhaps some one who is better than me at techy things can translate,copy,paste,racing erich post 124 Edited by GT4P on Thursday 7th April 18:12

ags11 said: Forgive my ignorance, but why would the 3.8 be harder to cool than the 3.4? More power equals greater heat generation.

Trev450 said: ags11 said: Forgive my ignorance, but why would the 3.8 be harder to cool than the 3.4? More power equals greater heat generation. that's why it has the third rad. and the sport button when pressed improves cooling

GT4P said: just to add no failures posted since last year and perhaps some one who is better than me at techy things can translate,copy,paste,racing erich post 124 I wish. Posting #238/#250 from 30. March 2016 reported another replacement engine. Started out as misfires on Cylinder #4, he had injectors, coilpack and sparkplugs replaced under warranty, problem persisted and then they found a seized piston. Posting #97 claims that he/she has heard of more than 10 engine failures. Various other posters question that, then Ehresmann (#116) steps in and says that not everyone with an engine failure posts about it. I have to say that I get an uneasy feeling from this.

Fokker said: You're making me depressed reading that! Very rare that we'll 'run it out' ? Are you a policeman? C'mon chaps... go and drive the thing! Ive done 500 miles this week on some of Wales' best roads plus Evo triangle etc etc and rev'd it to about 8k about 100 times having now done 2000 miles in 4 weeks of ownership! I heard about these engines failing about 6 months ago, so to me this is old news... I had a 996 C4S a few years ago, fitted the low temp thermo etc and had no issues. Only about 5% of cars were affected where the IMS was an issue. You'll only hear about the bad stuff so a couple of failed engines is nothing normal and to be expected. Worrying about it and pampering your car won't make a blind bit of difference. Good man I'm now on 3k miles and got spa this weekend !!

GT4P said: Trev450 said: ags11 said: Forgive my ignorance, but why would the 3.8 be harder to cool than the 3.4? More power equals greater heat generation. that's why it has the third rad. and the sport button when pressed improves cooling The 1st thing that came to mind was the 3rd radiator, & it's not massively more powerful. It's all speculation, I'm just interested in the concept.

Andrew911 said: Very worrying. I thought the latest Porsche DFI engines have done a great deal to significantly reduce the dreaded engine failures that have been seen on 996, Gen 1 997 & earlier Boxster & Caymen. Scored bores etc Poor cooling seems to have been a contributing factor to earlier engines (hence some owners fitted low temp thermostats). The guys at Hartech have done quite a bit of research in this area (plenty of reading material on their web site). I'am sure I read somewhere that Porsche had a challenge wrt cooling the 911 engine that is fitted to the GT4 & 981 Spyder due to space. Your GT4 will have a three year Porsche warranty which will cover replacement engine in the event of a full engine failure (but some folk maybe put off buying a used porker with a refitted engine. Its a bit like some people would be put off buying a house that has been treated for subsidence). Personally, when my Spyder lands I shall be following careful running-in which may help (under 4K revs for first 2000 miles). spoil yourself, as per Mr D's Porsche info , you can go up to 4200 rpm for the first 2000 miles Edited by Akajak on Friday 8th April 02:04

A new gt4 owner told me that he had quite restrictive and checkable running in instructions from Porsche.. Are they being careful?

Johnd52 said: A new gt4 owner told me that he had quite restrictive and checkable running in instructions from Porsche.. Are they being careful? I have heard buyers being told they dont need to run them in and just drive the nuts off it. And of course many buyers ignore running in anyway. And besides, IF there is a fundamental issue, like insufficient cooling, its not like running it in differently will fix it!

Johnd52 said: A new gt4 owner told me that he had quite restrictive and checkable running in instructions from Porsche.. Are they being careful? be surprised if that's true in the UK

Andrew911 said: but some folk maybe put off buying a used porker with a refitted engine. Hasn't really affected 991 GT3s......mine came from the factory direct with new engine but there is no evidence of numerous recent sales suggesting OPC fitted new engine cars are worth less. The GT4 and Spyder detuned C2S engine is a proven reliable relatively understressed unit (especially in these lighter cars and for road use) and whilst there maybe greater issues with cooling in the 981 mid engine platform than the Carreras, imo this sounds like a storm in a tea cup. Ref running in, there are nothing more than the usual Porsche paragraphs in both handbooks regarding the first 1865 miles although itnmay be a good idea to use the sport (GT4) and Sport Plus (Spyder) modes to activate the third rad during 'harder' use and prior to cutting the ignition.

Imho and from what I have read it seems like a component/quality issue that affected early build cars which mostly went to Germany as they were the first to receive early builds! There is no evidence of any issue with the dfi 3.8 which has been around 8 years now are part from one case of random failure on here which I believe was " magic 919" s car! As for cooling yet again no issues recorded for both 987.2 and 981 and yes the gt4 does have more power but is fitted with a third radiator and gives noticeable cooling when the sport button is pressed and imo should always kept on if racing/ tracking or giving the car a hard, fast blast!

av185 said: (GT4) and Sport Plus (Spyder) modes to activate the third rad during 'harder' use and prior to cutting the ignition. Good idea av185 might be worth pressing after a long drive a few miles from destination to cool engine

Sport button takes the noise level over many track day limits so perhaps related - as in many will leave it switched off to quieten the car down which leads to it getting hot potentially? GT4P said: that's why it has the third rad. and the sport button when pressed improves cooling

flat6gallivant said: Sport button takes the noise level over many track day limits so perhaps related - as in many will leave it switched off to quieten the car down which leads to it getting hot potentially The sport button doesn't control the exhaust though, there is a separate button for that. The main problem is that it is not possible to have the third rad open without the auto-blip function on. That is a shame imho.

woollyjoe said: Third radiator open? please tell me more. Sorry, thermostatic switch being open allowing the radiator to be in the cooling circuit and operating to cool the engine.

lsb said: Sorry, thermostatic switch being open allowing the radiator to be in the cooling circuit and operating to cool the engine. I imagine that thermostatic switch opens automatically when the oil temperature rises above a certain threshold even with the sport button off, else it it would be a colossal design fault.

Can someone explain to me what the difference is in cooling is between a Mid and a Rear Engine car? I can't see one myself. If my assumption is correct ( ) then I would guess that this not an inherent issue of cooling the engine in the Spyder/GT4 but with a particular batch of engines.

My 991 RS had a recall for new coil pack and plugs. A couple of cars had electrodes drop into engines with resultant engine replacements . Inspection of the old plugs showed no damage on my particular car.

RDMcG said: My 991 RS had a recall for new coil pack and plugs. A couple of cars had electrodes drop into engines with resultant engine replacements . Inspection of the old plugs showed no damage on my particular car. which is the same that I read on the german forum for the gt4 so all evidence points to bad quality on some early components ie plugs/coilpack not a design fault of the engine or cooling!!

My bad thanks for clearing that up. I agree it's a shame to have the auto blip tied to the sport button. lsb said: The sport button doesn't control the exhaust though, there is a separate button for that. The main problem is that it is not possible to have the third rad open without the auto-blip function on. That is a shame imho.

anonymous said: [redacted] Correct - page 128 of the manual.

anonymous said: [redacted] Not strictly true. It also brings engine temps down pretty quickly when pushed so it must be linked to the thermostat in some way. Edited by lsb on Sunday 10th April 17:00

lsb said: Not strictly true. It also brings engine temps down pretty quickly when pushed so it must be linked to the thermostat in some way. Edited by lsb on Sunday 10th April 17:00 It turns on the third radiator.

lsb said: anonymous said: [redacted] Not strictly true. It also brings engine temps down pretty quickly when pushed so it must be linked to the thermostat in some way. Edited by lsb on Sunday 10th April 17:00 I have heard that but cannot find mention in the manual - unless there is a supplementary manual .

Mentioned on Planet 9 http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-gt4-chat/122922...

So the third rad is always open and the sport button introduces a low temp thermostat( something hartech recommends for 9x7.1 to avoid bore scoring) It all sounds good to me!

woollyjoe said: Not sure what to reply. I don't know how many people you know who own this car, but presume you are saying breaking the law can be done responsibly? Funny thing, is that you cannot know when conditions are "suitable". Example, you are driving on a country road and it's clear for miles, bright sun and dry. Road is mega flat and smooth. it doesn't get better and you're only doing 50 if you're lucky. Then you lose steering for no reason and drift off road without control of the car because the farmer who also uses the road spilled grain on the road. You can't see grain and it's like black ice. Point being the road is public and you cannot rely on what you know. Adding more speed to this situation exponentially increases the risk. the opposite of being responsible. Now imagine you drift the other way in to oncoming traffic and you have just put others at risk. A track is fully controlled and prepared, as are the other drivers. Mmm I think your on the wrong website

woollyjoe said: Cmoose and Moldy - genuinely taken aback and not wanting to derail this posting, I get you endorse driving illegal speeds on public roads and you think it is responsible to do so. I think you'll find they said it wasn't necessarily irresponsible to do so, which is quite different. But I agree with them 100%. woollyjoe said: I'm saying it has less to do with your own skill as a driver, but what is outside your control you cannot possibly see or know (like a flat tyre even). The road is public and open to other dangers. If professional race drivers don't use PH, then I am on the wrong site, sure, but got a feeling other PHers are happy taking speed to the track. Know enough professional race drivers that abhore breaking the speed limits on public roads and the attitude it creates. Each to their own. I take it to the track. Clearly speed limits are set with sufficient contingency for the 'average' car driven by the 'average' driver in 'average' conditions, meaning that there is clearly huge scope for a good driver in a specialist car in good conditions to exceed the posted limit by quote some margin entirely safely.

anonymous said: [redacted]

Woolleyjoe - I'm sorry to reduce this to the playground but you come across as an astonishingly sanctimonious and dull individual. Would you be more comfortable on a railway enthusiasts / health and safety forum?

W12JFD said: Woolleyjoe - I'm sorry to reduce this to the playground but you come across as an astonishingly sanctimonious and dull individual. Would you be more comfortable on a railway enthusiasts / health and safety forum? Mumsnet?

woollyjoe said: All driving is dangerous. Rubbish! woollyjoe said: Not breaking the law is being responsible yes. Again, rubbish! An NSL that's now a 40 isn't necessarily safer because some t t behind a desk with a subscription to Mumsnet (where you belong?) decided that was safer!

GT4P said: which is the same that I read on the german forum for the gt4 so all evidence points to bad quality on some early components ie plugs/coilpack not a design fault of the engine or cooling!! I was told that it was a supplier component failure on one batch and it was a simple two hour job to do the replacement. I did want to see the original plugs to ensure that there had been nothing dropped to the engine. My understanding was that a short circuit was the problem. Only some cars had the recall. Edited by RDMcG on Monday 11th April 00:33

anonymous said: [redacted] Start a new thread guys, get a room whatever. Engine failures here.

woollyjoe said: Driving within the speed limit is being responsible. The lane at the end of my drive is barely one and a half Porsches wide and yet not unlike many similarly narrow lanes it is NSL I.e. 60mph limit and yet to drive at anywhere near this speed would be reckless if not dangerous for numerous reasons not least it is close to the village. Remember citizens, the speed limit is merely a limit not a target. And I despise BRAKE btw.

woollyjoe said: GT4P said: av185 said: (GT4) and Sport Plus (Spyder) modes to activate the third rad during 'harder' use and prior to cutting the ignition. Good idea av185 might be worth pressing after a long drive a few miles from destination to cool engine Does it help in stop start traffic? I.e. How effective are any of the rads in very slow moving traffic? Not really because the third rad would automatically cut in anyway once a certain temperature is reached irrespective of whether the sport button is pressed.

If the worse happens you could always go for this conversion: http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-and-boxster-mod... Edited by Trev450 on Monday 11th April 13:42

woollyjoe said: Cmoose, what argument are you picking here? Word definitions again? All driving is dangerous. I was talking about being responsible. Not breaking the law is being responsible yes. Not sure what else you expect, but that is it. given the deaths by fast driving on feb 27th, my comment to that poster (not you) that he may want to remove the specific comment. You just jumped on this incorrectly. I also never said the GT4 engine had cooling problems, only that mid engine cars are known to be harder to cool than rear and therefore posed the premise, question if you like, if this could be a reason for reported engine failures. Argue with any of that all you want, but clearly your comments to me have nothing to do with this thread. Edited by woollyjoe on Sunday 10th April 23:55 Why would I want to remove that comment about the Evo Triangle Joe? I have lived in that area for 20 years and know the roads better than probably anyone on here, its my back yard and I drive the roads enthusiastically and sensibly as I have always done. These deaths were nothing to do with me or 'my' driving so mentioning it with anyhting to do with my post is an insult to me and not appreciated. You speak about others jumping on your comments, well you jumped on mine. I have been on track with my GT4 several times now. Not all 100 revs to 8000 were on the Evo triangle. Granted that some people drive recklessly but i do not. Does this sentence say that i drove without due care and attention 'on' the Evo triangle? 'Ive done 500 miles this week on some of Wales' best roads plus Evo triangle etc etc and rev'd it to about 8k about 100 times having now done 2000 miles in 4 weeks of ownership!' It say rev'd it to 8000 100 time in the last 2000 miles. If you want to lecture people on breaking the speed limit, I suggest you do so to someone else on a different forum. No go and iron your cardigan. Edited by woollyjoe on Sunday 10th April 23:55

woollyjoe said: Driving within the speed limit is being responsible. That's total nonsense, as is the converse that driving above the speed limit is being irresponsible.

Fokker said: woollyjoe said: Cmoose, what argument are you picking here? Word definitions again? All driving is dangerous. I was talking about being responsible. Not breaking the law is being responsible yes. Not sure what else you expect, but that is it. given the deaths by fast driving on feb 27th, my comment to that poster (not you) that he may want to remove the specific comment. You just jumped on this incorrectly. I also never said the GT4 engine had cooling problems, only that mid engine cars are known to be harder to cool than rear and therefore posed the premise, question if you like, if this could be a reason for reported engine failures. Argue with any of that all you want, but clearly your comments to me have nothing to do with this thread. Why would I want to remove that comment about the Evo Triangle Joe? I have lived in that area for 20 years and know the roads better than probably anyone on here, its my back yard and I drive the roads enthusiastically and sensibly as I have always done. These deaths were nothing to do with me or 'my' driving so mentioning it with anyhting to do with my post is an insult to me and not appreciated. You speak about others jumping on your comments, well you jumped on mine. I have been on track with my GT4 several times now. Not all 100 revs to 8000 were on the Evo triangle. Granted that some people drive recklessly but i do not. Does this sentence say that i drove without due care and attention 'on' the Evo triangle?.......... 'Ive done 500 miles this week on some of Wales' best roads plus Evo triangle etc etc and rev'd it to about 8k about 100 times having now done 2000 miles in 4 weeks of ownership!'.......... It says rev'd it to 8000, 100 time in the last 2000 miles. You jumped on that with the opinion that I was driving like a maniac. If you want to lecture people on breaking the speed limit, I suggest you do so to someone else on a different forum. You speak about legalities a lot on your posts, whether its to do with PDLS or speeding so I can only think that you are a police officer doing your best to 'Police' this forum albeit rather unsuccessfully. Edited by Fokker on Monday 11th April 16:31

why is all this on a Engine fail thread ?

So.......does anyone know WHY these engine failures occurred?

v8ksn said: So.......does anyone know WHY these engine failures occurred? atm it seems faulty coil packs and spark plugs on early German cars.

woollyjoe said: I apologise if that is how it was read or interpreted. I did not mention or imply I was questioning ethics and merely was expressing my opinion. I am also not blaming everyone else and have not said that either. Well lets put it to bed then but Cmoose is absolutely right...

So how many cars are actually impacted? Sounds remarkably minimal.