Porsche, Asleep at The Wheel!

The problems that the 996TT currently has with the Corvette Z06, is exactly what the 996 is going to have with it competitors. The C36 may not be the perfect competitor to the 996 now, but neither was the C5 Corvette the perfect competitor to the 996TT, that is until the Z06. If Porsche, and the rest of the readers on this post can't understand this relationship then we will continue seeing below-par products made by Porsche and purchased by ignorant buyers. The problems with the 996 is really just the tip of the iceberg. Remember 3/4 of an iceberg lies below the surface, and Porsche's "hull" will be ripped right open if someone doesn't steer the ship in the right direction. Beliveing in your own BULLSH*T!, is a terrible disease. And right now Porsche has that dogmatic opinion that anything American is junk. Well, wake up guys!

Hi Maxeemum, what porsche do you have ? And which porsche did you have in the past ? cu styx

Why do you continue to buy, discuss, and for that matter drive, a car from what you obviously view as a doomed, inferior manufacturer? Why don't you move on to a Vette already and raise your self esteem ? Perry

Lets stick with the argument Perry, and don't attack the person. I am interested in your view on the topic, not interested in your opinion about me, in any way. So if you don't have an opinion, don't post. It sounds like you are one of those guys who believes in their own bullsh*t. So now that you have succeeded in establishing that, move on.

Maxeemum, Why come on a Porsche board and slag off Porsches, who are you trying to convince here? People buy Porsches for amongst other things the name and the heritage of the company, not necessarily because it is the fastest thing on the road in a straight line. I get a big buzz from owning a Porsche as a marque, as well as the overall driving experience it gives me. I really couldn't give a damn that some 'Vette or another can beat me off the lights etc. If that was all I was interested in, I would have kept my seriously modified Twin Turbo Toyota Supra, which would have kicked the butt of most stock factory cars. People buy the Porsche for what it is, and not purely 0-60 times. Eric

Buying something b/c of the marque is crap. You are believing your own bullsh*t if you do. But that's what marketing is all about. And you my friend are a marketer's dream. You believe the hype, form without substance.

Oh Eric, reat the test. Yes the vette won the acceleration test. But it also won the braking test and tragicly, it out handled the 996tt cosing 2 1/2 times as much. But let's not criticize. We can all just join the flat earth society.

Eric it's ok to have an opinion, but at least have an informed opinion. Read the test in Road and Track Z06 vs 996TT. The Z06 beat the 996TT in EVERY category, not just 0-60 times.

Maxeemum & Carlos, have you understood a single word I have said?? I don't care for Corvette, the car doesn't do anything for me emotionally and this is a large part of car ownership (for me anyway). If you two are the kind of guys that go looking for races at every traffic light, then fair enough, buy whatever goes the fastest on the market at that particular time. You will ALWAYS come up against something quicker than you. Buy your Z06 and then you might find yourself sitting next to a SARD modified Skyline R34 which would destroy you in a 'street race' (ie straight line). What then?? Go and sell your 'Vette because you are slower?? Hmmmm.... I am not believing my own bull****, because I am quite happy to admit there are faster things out there on the road, there always is. Owning a Porsche makes me feel happy, and surely that is what buying your dream car is about? Think you guys need to calm it a bit with reading the back pages of performance car magazines, desperately trying to find the fastest car on four wheels amongst all the stats. Ho hum Eric

<Lets stick with the argument Perry, and don't attack the person.I am interested in your view on the topic, not interested in your opinion about me, in any way.> Bitching and whining about how "my car isn't the fastest" is not an arguement. The problem is not with the car, but your perception of what you think the car should be. Does the job of imaginary product manager also have an imaginary paycheck ?

The test in Car and Driver was a bit fishy. This magazine has always been suspect in many respects (heck.. they admit making up letters to the editor. What kind of magazine would do that with a straight face?). Although I admit I am, from time to time, a subscriber to it. It's fun to read about this or that, but the testing itself was strange. Did you see the exit speed differences between the various cars, for instance? There are many variables between drivers going on, they should have had the same driver for each car, same tires, etc. and I would suggest that, on any given day the stock TT and the Z06 are going to be close in performance, but so what. A slight mod here or there would make a huge difference on the track with relatively little streetable difference. I regularly blow by current Z06's on the track with a plainjane 993 with suspension mods only and skinny 205X50X17's up front, to make a point. Having said all of that, I do think that this particular article will cause a watershed of sorts in Porsche management's thinking. 3500 lbs. does not a "sports car" make, plain and simple. If Porsche is to continue on with their longstanding heritage, they must offer lighter, less well-equipped cars for the masses (strike GT2 from that offing). If they wish to offer these alongside their heavier, luxurious counterparts, which is essentially what Chevy is doing with the Z06, then so be it. European makers have all taken to making incredibly heavy cars IMO. Yuch!

Now I understand. It was never implied that a 996tt was supposed to be fast? Eric, unless I take a Z06 to Japan, I will probably not pull up next to a Nissan Skyline. But you keep referring back to "straight line performance." Go get the current C&D and read the article. The Z06 beat the 996tt on the road course part of the test. Now I'm sure there were some straight sections of the road course. But I'm also quit sure the it included some turns as well.

Maxeemum, Since you say it's ok to have an opinion (thanks!), as long as it's informed (I like to think so), here's mine. Although I haven't yet received my issue of R&T with the test you mention I don't particularly care that the Z06 tested by R&T beat the 996TT. There are many factors, subjective and objective, that determine my choices on everything, including cars. For you raw numbers apparently are the be-all and end-all when comparing vehicles. Nothing is wrong with that�for YOU. The problem is that somehow you have reached the conclusion that because those numbers are most important to YOU, that they should be most important to EVERYBODY. In fact, you seem to believe that anyone who appreciates the overall experience of driving a car like a Porsche, (how it looks, how it's built, what it feels like to drive etc.) and buys one for THAT reason, is somehow a Porsche apologist, or buried in "bullsh*t" with an "uninformed" opinion. Since I own a 996, I could obviously have afforded to buy a Z06. But I don't WANT a Z06. I don't particularly care for the body style, the interior seems cheap to me, I don't like the driving position, the car feels too big�I could go on. I'm not saying that performance is unimportant. But the 996 (or the 996TT) offer performance that is so far beyond what I can reasonably use on public roads that it completely satisfies that requirement for me. That fact that the Z06, in the hands of a particular driver in some specific test is a few tenths quicker is pretty much irrelevant. I don't need Porsche (or you) to convince me via marketing or any other medium what is best for me, or what I like. I'm a mature adult, have owned dozens of cars, and am totally capable of making my own decisions. For me, and I suspect many others who post on this board, the Porsche is overall simply a better choice than the Corvette. Despite what you may think, that is not "bullsh*t", it is simply the majority opinion around here, based on factors that go beyond test numbers, and it happens to be a different opinion than yours. Trying to compare cars based simply on test data is like deciding to marry a woman based on her physical measurements�you may be satisfied in one area, but overall it may be a very poor match. It's curious that there seem to be so many posts on the Porsche boards that attempt to put down Porsches because they give up a few ticks on the clock to the odd Viper/Vette/M3, whatever. I don't spend a lot of time trolling other boards, but I wonder how many Porsche owners spend their time putting down other marques on their discussion boards. It's hard to believe that someone who continually posts about the negative side of Porsche on a Porsche board is trying to redeem Porsche "sinners" for their own good or the health of the company. No, I suspect a different agenda. If you really feel that strongly about it, maybe you should write a letter to Porsche and let them know your thoughts, sparing us all the constant repetition of your "Porsche is doomed" mantra. For maxeemum effect (sorry couldn't help it) make sure to include a copy of the bill of sale when you get rid of your current Porsche (which model was it that you own, again?) and the invoice for that new Z06 you will be buying. I guarantee that will have a greater effect on Porsche's future than trying to convince us poor uninformed Porsche owners that we didn't know how to spend our hard-earned money. Mike

I just registered to post but I have been lurking here for months now. This thread has convinced me that I need to sell my 996. I can not handle being in a slow car. I am going down this eve to trade in for a new Z06. Yea right, Probably a more accurate comparison would have been between the GT2 and the Z06. Both cars are really made for the track. I consider the TT to be more of a luxury sports car with a lot of amenities that you will not find in said Vette. The point of this is not that the Vette is a bad car. I respect them when I see one on the road. It is just not the car for me and that is my own preference. I do think the Vette is interesting. In order for them to compete in ALMS and Grand Am they had to build a complete works car from scratch and run it in an empty class (GTS). Anybody ever see the C5's run in the GT production class against the GT3's and M3GTR's? I am pretty sure a team tried at Sebring. Just throwing fuel on the fire...

Carlos, if you are doing the sort of speeds that put a car to it's limit on the public highway, you deserve to be locked up. Oh yes, I often do 150mph on my commute through traffic to work. Do you often go tailsliding through intersections whilst carrying out one of your fantasy traffic light grand prix? OK, now put yourself in a Z06, then a 996 on the track - are you really going to be able to get the absolute limit out of either car. If the Z06 beats the 996 by a couple of tenths, so what, lets put things in perspective here, either car is more than competent on the track. Of course if you are worried about competing in a race series, you wouldn't buy either of these, you would have a stripped out race car. Let's get a grip here guys. Eric

Team by the name of Trinkler Motorsports did. A friend of mine was one of their drivers at Sebring. They ran into some bad luck and didn't finish well. It would be great for the series and Porsche to have some competitors like the Vette in the GT class, but unless GM steps up, I doubt it will happen due to a lack of funding for the privateers.

Mike in CA. GO READ THE ARTICLE FIRST. THEN POST ON HERE.

Good posts by Mike and Eric! I couldn't agree more. For those thinking Porsche is lagging behind the competition, I suggest a test drive in the '02 996 coupe.

Guys, hello?..Is anyone Home?... The Z06 beat the 996TT in EVERY CATEGORY! And we are not just talking about numbers. We are talking about feel, and enjoyment to drive. Read the article for gods sake and stop thinking that the world is flat and that the earth is the center of the solar system. If you don't see anything wrong with that then you guys are brain dead!

Maxeemum from wherever you are, read the post first then write your reply. Which bit of Mikes post are you finding difficult to understand? Was it the bit about NOT CARING THAT THE Z06 WAS FASTER?? No?? OK Perhaps the bit about THE VETTE NOT BEING A CAR HE PERSONALLY LIKES (god forbid, someone not liking a 'Vette - how could they, after all its x 10ths faster - just doesn't make sense to me....). Remeber to write to me from Jail after you get caught from the next 20 minute street race you have through the streets of your neighbourhood. Eric

Maxeemum, no no no, get it right. It may have beaten the 996 against the clock, but that does NOT necassarily mean that it has better 'feel' etc. In a recent test in AutoCar over here, a Lotus Elise won the best handling car of the year accolade, was it the fastest on the track? No sir, not by a long shot, but what it had was supreme adjustability and feel. I am not saying the 996 DOES have better feel than the Z06, how could I possibly, I have not driven a Z06. If I were you I too would refrain from making sweeping statements that you PERSONALLY are not able to back up. Otherwise we are just back at believing the hype, as you readily accused us of, are we not? Eric

Hey Eric, your post implies that maybe a new slogan is in order: Almost as much performance as a Z06 Corvette, almost as much luxury as a Toyota Avalon for only $120k, but "oh what a feeling." Or has that last part already been taken?

How about 'Three times the style of a Corvette'??

Are we also really saying here Carlos that people aren't allowed to make a personal decision as to which car they like, what appeals to them? And should base there purchase on track times? Let me ask you a question, do you like Blonde women or Brunettes?? Hmmm, kind of subjective and personal to each individual eh? Sheeez, and I thought America was land of the free

Geez, talk about brain dead! How can you miss the point so repeatedly? Don't you get it? I don't care that SOMEONE ELSE thinks that the Z06 has more feel and is more entertaining to drive or that the numbers are everything. In contrast to you, apparently, I am capable of making MY OWN decisions, and just because my criteria for making that decision is different than yours or some magazine employee's doesn't make it "bullsh*t", as you so elegantly put it. I had a choice of a lot of great machinery under $100,000. I bought a 996 because, overall, it best fullfilled MY wants and needs in an automobile. The fact that those wants and needs are different than yours, pleases me no end. So once again, which current Porsche is it that you own? If you don't own one, then you really aren't qualified to comment on the Porsche ownership experience. And if you do own one, then you are an idiot to keep it when it causes you so much angst. For pitys sake sell it quick so you won't have to keep agonizing over these magazine road tests. Mike

I'm in favor of personal liberties including choice of cars. But that has no effect on reality. And refusing to accept thet the 996tt has some deficiencies is akin to talking up the "personality" of the fat girl.

errr - who here is saying that the 996 doesn't have deficiencies?? Must have missed that post. Of course it does, don't most cars?. So the Corvette doesn't have any I presume??? Round of applause for Corvette then. Again we arrive back at the point that seems to be crucial to this whole debate. The ability make a personal choice on a car. Not to be told by a magazine what to buy. Has it occured to you that some people might not like the shape of a Corvette? Might not like the interior (even though the next man on the street loves it). Might not like the driving position (again in contrast to what the next man on the street thinks). Thank god we all like different things in life, otherwise life would be very boring, don't you think? I take it you have driven a Z06, as you are so sure of its superhuman capabilities? OK. What about a 996 TT? Right then. Or are you just taking a magazines word for it?? If you want perfection, go buy a McLaren F1. Eric

I just read back through the posts in this thread. Maybe you could identify which poster wrote that the 996tt has no deficiencies, because I couldn't find that statement. If you're going to try and make a point about reality, maybe you should make sure you're on firm ground in that area. Why is this so hard for you? All cars have deficiencies. Each buyer makes a choice which minimizes those deficiencies for him/her. Let's cut through the hyperbole for a minute. Are you really trying to say that the 996tt, one of the top production performance cars in the world by any objective measure, is nothing more than a "fat girl with personality"? I can think of a certain Porsche V8 model that was, in it's day, thought to be bulbous and overweight. Yet obviously it appealed to certain buyers, didn't it? When you bought one, did you listen to the critics, or did you buy what YOU wanted? Mike

Glad so see some reality creepin in. We can discuss opinions forever. And everybody has a right to thier own. No, I have driven neither car. Didn't claim that I had. But C&D has and that's what we were discussing. You don't have to drive an F14 to believe it's supersonic. As for the McClaren, sorry but I don't have a spare million around. But if you do and wan't to really impress me, I'll email my address. If it shows up I'll be your biggest fan!

"You don't have to drive an F14 to believe it's supersonic." That is the obvious. When it comes to the performance difference between the Z06 and the tt, it isn't quite so obvious. Which makes it more of a personal preference. Something Maxeemum finds hard to accept. Mike and Eric and everyone else has repeated this many times over - he just isn't listening. Maxeemum is the kind of person that bases his entire opinion on one magazine article. He has no real world experience with either the 996tt or the Z06. He even says the Z06 'feels' better because a magazine said so. Have you ever even felt a Z06 or a 996tt? The magazine is your definitive source for automotive opinions. I think the magazine guys can't ask for a more ignorant or better customer. Don't you understand? We don't care that the Z06 is faster and costs a lot less. We made our decisions based on our personal opinion (not simply based on how fast a car can go) and that's that. Turbo-Look P.S. - Thank you Mike for expressing the important points over and over.

P.S. - Thank you Mike for expressing the important points over and over. Turbo Look, No problem. I'm used to having to repeat the important stuff over and over. I have teenagers. Mike

hey! That teenager comment wasn't necesary! hehe We just have a tendency to forget things that we dont like to remember...like our curfue...that we have homework...to cut the grass...But we remember to wash our cars!!! Who cares anyway? Porsche, chevy, honda, kia, ford..They're just get you from point A to point B right? Guy 1: "But I can get from A to B faster than you can." Guy 2: "No you can't...you'll get your license suspended due to excessive speeding tickets/reckless driving tickets and then I'll be able to drive next to you as you walk. "

I occasionally get over here to the 996 board to read the posts. After reading Maxeemum's comments on this one (and his previous post on the '02 996), I have one thing to say, I'm glad he stays off the 993 board. He's just creating emotion to get reaction and demonstrating his lack of maturity by not considering other people's opinions. Hey Max are you ready to sell your 996? I'm in the market.

Are you sure that he has a Porsche ? Maybe he is not real and writes only on that board to annoy us.;-) cu styx

I'll try to make this simple. I didn't hear anybody say that the vette was a better car, only that it out performed the 996tt in the C&D test. Since then a littany of corvettte "deficiencies" have been espoused as well as opinions on anyone who would drive such a car, consiracy theories relating to the test and even possible driver disadvantages for the 996. They sent Hurley freakin Haywood. Who do we need to make it fair Michael Schumacher? So we understand each other, I didn't even say I would rather have the vette. But when Chevtolet's "ultimate" sportscar out performs Porsche's "ultimate" sportscar at 40% of the price, IMHO that is a deficiency. Your opinion may vary.

Carlos, you keep banging on and on about how the Z06 outperforms the 996tt. Has ONE PERSON here disagreed? Is this SOLELY your criteria for buying a car. Are there no other considerations in your decision making process other than 'it goes faster'? How much faster are we talking about, Carlos? Will you (and I mean you personally) exploit those few 10ths sec? Are you saying that the Porsche is dog slow? How many cars can you list that will beat the Porsche, if lap times are really all that important to you? What makes you think that Porsche are on a sinking ship because one car is slightly faster than it? Are you going to level those same criticisms against Corvette when something comes out in 12 months time that is 1/2 second faster? I think you need to seriously ask yourself those questions. Eric

Here's a trend we're apt to see more of. I can see a US bound GT3 on the horizon! More competition for the Z06 and 996TT

Well, here I go. Lurking the 911-variant boards is my usual style, but this topic just begs for some followup. Who cares if the Z06 Corvette beat the 996TT in C&D or R&T? I look at the two cars sitting side by side, and I naturally -want- the Porsche. Why? It's a Porsche. I've owned two myself (not 996TT cars, though) and I can confidently say that for me, personally, there would be no greater driving reward than to own a 996TT. What about the Z06? It's a FINE car. To Maxxeemmum - If you want a fast car and want to save $75K - buy a Z06, and I'm sure you'll be happy with it. But then, don't come to Rennlist spouting off about how your car is faster, or handles better, and how you saved 75K over the cost of a 996TT - primarily because nobody here will care. Greg

Maxeemun and Carlos, what car would you choose for yourselves if their were priced exactly the same?the Z06 or 996TT? Ok then, the reasons for choosing the 996TT for some people are worth the extra money they need to pay for, period! If you are not willing to pay or can�t (I had to settle with a 996C4) then tough and go buy a Z06 and shut up. Anyway, I can�t conclude from that fishy C&D test that the Z06 is a better handler or measurably faster than the 996TT, don�t get me wrong I couldn�t care less if it is marginally faster than the 996TT. Show me consistent superior Nurburgring track lap times or a couple of articles from more prestigious car magazines such as Sporcar International or other. If you can draw firm conclusions from a test like that, then you are very naive. BTW I do think Porsche has gone a little soft lately, on top of that the SUV project is ridiculous. But Porsche always ends up going back on track. After all no one can disagree that the Porsche 911 is the most succesful car in motor racing. Carlos from Spain

If C&D had wanted to get lap times ONLY then that would have been the test. They didn't. Race cars turn great lap times. They suck on the street. That's why when I see some boy racer wannabee with his 180hp 911 slammed down on the ground with a cage in it, I laugh. No A/C, brutal ride, horrible comfort, acceleration like a school bus. But he can corner faster than me. I'm crushed. C&D included acceleration and braking as well because they wanted a "real world" performance comparison. I think the test they devised was very well thought out. So how often have you lapped the Nurburgring? Seeing as that would require shipping my car across the atlantic, that's not in my immediate plans. And trust me my boy there are a lot of seiously fast cars that have never seen the Nurburgring. Hans Stuck turned 7.49 (7sec. faster than a 996tt) in a 12 cyl X5. So what. Personally, I don't deal in the etherial world of multi hundred k supercars. So that has the same impact on me as knowing that the space schuttle goes 17k mph. If you think that a 120k 996tt getting beat by a 50k Z06 is something to brag about then get to it. I don't. And as for your C4, I would never spend that much money on a car that slow. To each his own.

There you go about performance again - the lights are on, but no one is home, eh Carlos? Do you often just consult one source of information before making your mind up so categorically on something? Wow, look who's the marketing mens dream now... All I can say is thank god we've got an expert on this list, looks like he Forums going to be going very quiet soon, what with all the trade ins to Z06's happening up and down the country. Question, why do you still own a Porsche, when an IROC Z or Camero or similar American muscle car could beat you for a fraction of the cost? Eric

Yeah Eric! (but no offense intended to the others posting here). Eric just shares my personal perspective about my '99 C4. I know its not the fastest car on the road, but I LOVE IT and couldn't imagine trading for anything else (except a 911 turbo). Everyday when I finish my winding country road drive home from work (I use my car as a daily driver)I feel exhilerated. Why? not for pure speed - I've driven faster cars - its the package, the look, the feel - its a great car. The Z06 is, from all I've read, a great performance car and it sounds like its faster and quicker than the 911. I haven't driven it, but I've driven other vettes - they just don't do it for me the way a 911 does. That being said, there are vette lovers (you can find them on a vette forum and some of them are my friends) who feel that way about their cars and can't imagine driving a 911 (at least instead of a vette). Thats ok - thats why both cars are made (and sold) and thats why each car is made in many colors - people just have different perspectives. If there is a dispute over performance numbers v. performance numbers, thats a fair fight, but its not worth fighting over subjective differences of opinion.

Carlos:"when I see some boy racer wannabee with his 180hp 911 slammed down on the ground with a cage in it, I laugh" Just make sure its not an "old" 2000lbs. �73 911 2.7RS. He will be the one laughing after he beats you senseless Carlos:"And as for your C4, I would never spend that much money on a car that slow." Well, luky for me, I�m not you . Have you ever driven to the limit a 911C4 (sport chasis, 18" wheels and aerokit)? Obviously not, if you make that statement. Maybe you read it in a C&D article right? Oh, and thats comming from an overweight 3660lbs 5liter on the front �87 928 S4? now thats Porsche�s fastest and best handler right? Whats the top speed on that 165mph? (stock - not counting the K&N filter ) You think you can keep up with a 996 4wd on an european highway? reached 173mph (slight downhill of course but ran out of road)coming back from work this thursday, not to mention cornering speed and breaking... I�m not dishing your car just think about what you say before you post. To each his own I say. Carlos from Spain.

According to the link that Jim Sullivan posted ( BMW M3 CSL ) "This concept comes with a 19" wheel and tire combo for maximumm stability and handling, while 18" brakes provide ample stopping power." 18" Brakes...in 19" wheels? Come on now lets be serious...There's no possible way that 18" brakes are necesary for a 3200lbs car...and no possible way that 18" discs could fit under 19" wheels. "Tested at the Nurburgring, the M3 CSL covered the northern circuit in well under eight minutes, besting the production M3 by a staggering 30 seconds." Well under 8 minutes? I'm just curious how well under the actual time is. Is it 5 seconds? is it 2 seconds? 10 seconds? who knows?!

I would like to quote some performance figures from November 2000 Motor Trend's High Speed Shootout. The 996TT was tested against eight other cars including the Z06. The Z06 tested was an 2001 model(02' has 20Hp more and some minor changes.) 0-100-0 Porsche 14.2, Z06 14.56. Advantage Porsche. One Mile acceleration Porsche 30.89@161.58, Z06 31.32@160.73. Advantage Porsche. Slalom Porsche 68.60 MPH, Z06 68.50 MPH. Advantage Porsche. 0-60 MPH Porsche 3.98, Z06 4.34. Advantage Porsche. 1/4 mile Porsche 11.92@116.09, Z06 12.59@112.38. Advantage Porsche. Braking 60-0 Porsche 116', Z06 111'. Advantage Z06. Maximum lateral G Porsche .97, Z06 .98. Advantage Z06. So it looks like the Porsche is not only holding it's own but beating the Vette in almost every test.

Of course that is with the "old" 2001 model. I think it comes down to the fact that despite the fact that the 02 Z06 equals or betters the 996 TT is all performance aspects, there is more than performance. To some the look and heritage (which both cars have) ofa car are equally important. That is why 996 TT owners purchase them over the Z06. If performance were everything, why would anyone ever buy a 290 hp NSX for 90k!!

Your depth of knowledge is showing there Carlos from Spain. " reached 173mph (slight downhill of course but ran out of road)coming back from work this thursday" Was that "slight" downhill less than 5%? Without any mod an S4 goes 171 on the flat. No downhill necessary. And if you were paying attention before you would know that a stock 928 S4 weighs 3550. Mine's a little less. Lets but the bull**** aside NO TURBO, NO HOPE. Is there anything about that you don't understand? I'm batting 1000 against cars like yours. I like the fact that my 14 year old inexpensive V8 whips the hell out of cars like yours. That's why I bought it. 8 cyl= power, 6 cyl = less power. So get used to the lack of respect. Since "the nurburgring" is the only "real" performance ruler, deal with the fact that that 928 beat the 930 turbo and ALL n/a Porsches manufactured at the same time. Of course they didn't have you behind the wheel. If I spent 1/3 of what you spent on my 928,, you couldn't read my license plate without a telescope. I'm trying to be nice but you're making it hard. PS keep on going 173 on the way home from work and we won't have to deal with your foolish posts much longer.

Not to fuel to this already heated arguement, but is it just me or does it seem just a wee bit fishy that the 2002 996TT does the Qmile in one second SLOWER than the the 2001, at least according to the respective R&T & C&D tests?

Reading and collecting information is a good thing, but puting all your faith into one magazine article, especially when dealing with performance numbers is extremely silly. I respect everyone's opinions, but too me Maxeemum, it seems like you're trying to open up people's minds to an idea that you should know many people could care less about. If you're the type of person that likes to compare every .02 second difference, thats kewl and sometimes useful for some applications. But you set up this topic and start preaching like this is the begining of the end for Porsche and if we don't see things your way and stop believing in our own B.S. Porsche is going to,,,what? continue to manufacture what you consider inferior products right??? Ha! The performance gap between companies is indeed narrowing, true, but that's just how it is and how it is going to be, and more than anything, we should all be happy about it. The more competition, all the better for the consumer. This is definatly a golden age for cars in my opinion, and in the near future, I see even more and better things. While we're on the subject, of "performance" vs "feel", let me just say that the most important factor for me when buying a sports car, is indeed "feel" with "performance" a close 2nd. Thats why im the proud owner of a '00 C4 cpe and not an M3, Audi S4, or Carrera 2. I put more value in driving these mentioned cars than reading about what some other guy's opinion was of them. The result...Im only extremely satisfied with my C4, and have absolutley NO regrets about purchasing one. I could go on 4ever about excellent qualities the car has,,like how the steering is just perfectly in proportion to its chassis balance and turn-in rate, to the way I can haul through the twisties at insane speeds in the dry or wet with extreme stability, and the way it puts it's traction down so well that my car can get the jump on much more powerful cars like the Z8 which have to deal with spinning rears before they can use all their HP effectively to pass me up. So anyway, I guess Im just more into having fun driving than worrying about some other faster car beating me in some straight-line drag.

Ho ho ho Carlos, you really make me chuckle - some of your ideas on life - really!! Lets see, Carlos from Spain with his 996 better get used to a lack of respect compared to your 'Maximum Respect' 15 yr old 928 (with K&N Filter & Chip, not to mention Strosek Wheels ). I'm having trouble typing here, what with the tears streaming down my face from laughter . BTW how much extra BHP is that K & N filter worth - gotta be AT LEAST 1bhp - could even be 2 - all counts in those vital 10ths of a second you can shave off your journey to work though, eh Carlos??. And does your car weigh less because you have removed the floor mats and spare wheel out of the trunk... Think you can beat a C4 around a track?? You did say earlier in your posts that I kept going on about straight line speed and how irrelevant that was - well the only chance you would stand against a 996C4 would be on a straight, so right back at you. I can just see you now thumbing through your well worn copy of C&D checking out stats for the 996. Can I point you to this link to check the performance of your car?? http://www.ukcar.com/ 0-60 in 5.8 Secs - AutoCar have it as 5.6 - and the 996C4 - 4.8secs - oops, looks like you just got your *** kicked. 30 - 70 - 4.9 secs for you - 4.4 for the 996 C4 - 2nd round and knockout punch to Carlos from Spain. Course I havn't factored in for your K&N air filter..... Carlos, go get yourself A) A life B) A Corvette Eric

Hey everyone, I have got a video of Carlos on his way to work - recorded just the other day http://203.97.216.253/mkiv/download/junsupra.mpeg

You're right. That must be CFS, (the genius) attempting to break his previous best of 173 (bull****) on his daily comute. I hate to keep pointing this stuff out but the 928 was (according to Porsche's numbers) the fastest n/a Porsche in the lineup for the entire production run. It was also Dr. Porsche's favorite. It's a shame that you two geniuses didn't get a chance to explain to him that he was full of crap. I see, we can't trust C&D but we can trust some used car site in england? Was that timed with a Lucas stopwatch? You guys have convinced me. The 996 is the epitome of automobile production. By the way have either of you guys had to deal with that niggling ENGINE REPLACEMENT problem? PS I only put the K&N on so 996 guys would have an excuse when they get their *** handed to them by a 15 yr old car.

But turbo's are fun Carlos . Ever riden in/driven a 951? The feeling when the boost hits is awesome. Not to mention how fast you can make a 951 with only limited funds. Chips, Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and MBC = 16psi of boost and torque up the wazoo!! I'm talking 320lb/ft here. Followed up by about 295-300hp. That's using Steve R chips of course. The 951 does lack low RPM power though. Anyway, we both drive Porsche's so why can't we all get along??!! The Corvette is for some, the 911TT is for others. All this debate is fairly useless because nobody is being swayed, at all. So how about we just let all these vette vs. 996TT threads die?? Just call it a Tie!

Carlos, let me point out to you that Ferry Porsche�s baby has always been the 911! The 928 was Dr.Fuhrmann�s idea because of him the 1978-1983 era was the darkest of the 911 (i.e. 911SC). The result was that Ferry gave him the kick in the *** and replaced him with Peter Schultz and the 911 was back Don�t worry about me doing 173mph back from work, a lowered 4wd 996 with aerokit handles it with a beautiful poise. You should be the one worring about you doing 173mph, oh I forgot a 928 (incl. K&N filter) could only do that in freefall . Did you reach that 171mph yourself or did you read it in an C&D article, I wonder what the "lift effect" is on an superbly aerodinamic 928 is at 171mph? 3550lbs! you can�t be proud of that! I just raced today an M5 comming out of the highway poll (we saw each other and floored it) and passed him in 6th gear (didn�t look at the speed) on the exit of a curve. Thats what the extra weight does to you even if you have 400HP to push out of the curve: too slow on breaking, too slow on corner speed and too late in accel out of the curve. Now I don�t think that I could have done that if he was in an M3. For you the power, for me the handling. The same thing happened last year with a BMW 850CSI (360-380HP) and I was driving an E36-M3. BTW I know the 996 could go faster in a slight downhill but I ran out of road! hate repeating myself. Oh, and guess what, I too have a K&N filter on my 996, that equals things right? THe 928 is not a bad car, just know your limitations, I know mine. Carlos from Spain.

Thanks for the specs 996C4 vs. 928S4 Eric. I got some myself too (from 928 enthusiast sites): -928S4 is 200lbs heavier -top speed 4-10mph slower depending on the source (the 928 has a .34 drag coef.!!) -1.7secs slower on 0-100Kmh!(not same as 0-60mph) -slower 1/4mile, average of .3 secs And it doesn�t take much brains or knowledge to figure out that the lighter, four wheel drive, current model 911 has considerable higher cornering speed and handling (not taking into account sport chasis and 18"wheels versions). So... you can�t be serious Carlos!! its slower on all imaginable counts. ITS NOT EVEN A CLOSE COMPARISON! You could argue about a ZO6 vs. 996TT but a 928 vs 996C4 is like a 996C4(with sport chasis, aerokit, 18"wheels and all) vs. a 996GT3... GET REAL! Oh but wait, you have a K&N filter as you proudly disply in your signature. But then again I have one too so that evens things out Don�t worry I won�t take you seriously in that the 15yr old 928 is faster than a 996C4, its just one of those things you say in the heat of the moment and you don�t really believe yourself. I didn�t want to breack this to you (its like telling a 5 year-old that Santa Claus is not real) but...: The reason the 928 was the fastest in the Porsche line up when it was introduced is because the 911SC was de-tuned, yes de-tuned!, to 180HP (from the previous 911 with 200HP) so as to prevent a new 911 from having a greater top speed than the 928 which was supposed to be the succesor of the 911. But Ferry stepped in like I said and solved the problem by firing Dr. Fuhrmann. The 928 is just the overweight plusher brother of the 911 of the time, lust like the M5 to the M3 or the Ferrari Mondial and F348tb. More powerful but heavier, and slower. 928 vs. 996: it was good for a laught though, I bet Eric is not the only one here still laughing BTW I miss calculated the conversion from KM/h to mph (forgot to divide by 98). I reached 288km/h before hitting the brakes which is 176mph. Carlos from Spain 996 C4 (w/ K&N filter)

Go Carlos From Spain! (This is a 996 board after all) Maybe I should get a K&N Filter too for my C-4, then it might go as fast as the Turbo, or better yet, as fast as Carlos' 15 year old 928!!

Just one quick thing to add: The Ferrari Mondial t in fact had (I believe) the same engine as the 348tb, both 300HP, although the Mondial t weighed more and was considerably slower. In 1993 the 348 jumped to 312HP, I believe the Mondial stayed at 300 flat... Just some useless trivia to throw out, not to change the point, for it doesn't. Porsche... regardless of the model, 911 or 928, there really is no substitute.

1.You guys have figured out the problem. Since the 996tt weighs more than my car, it must handle like pig on ice (according to you geniuses). 2.Here's another tidbit, in Porsche's own testing, the 928 was faster at "the nurburgring than a 930." 3.In Porsche's own testing, the 928 was faster than a n/n 993. I know you guys can come up with some rationalization for that. 4. It wasn't just one year that it was faster than the 911 as you refer to but every, read it again EVERY year it was in production. There's that annoying reality again. 5.It must be the lowering that boosted the top speed of your c4 to 13 mph higher than a c2 right? 6. CFS if you're driving a lowered 996 on the street I scoff at you. You may be able to go around a corner marginally faster than I. But when you are at the dentist getting broken teeth repaired after going over a speed bump. I'll be motoring hapily with my 928 induced smile intact. 7. CFS if you are road racing on the street, we'll be reading about you like the famed Rick from Portland, upside down and smoking. 8.The car was Dr. Porsche's favorite. It's a shame you geniuses didn't get a chance to enlighten him. You could have shored up the weak spots in his understanding of the automobile. 9. If I has your car CFS, I would be looking for some power too. Maybe you should try a K&N. But to beat my car it'll probably take a turbo! 10. The 928 held the record for top speed in a n/a stock production auto untill not too long ago. Just think if it had been designed well? 10. My car is 2 for 2 with 996's since you geniuses have already proved beyoond the shadow of a doubt that the 996 is unquestionably faster, what could it be? Since every 996 driver that posts here is the second coming of Nikki Lauda, that can't be it. It must have been a ripple in the fabric of time and space that occured at the exact moment I was whipping their asses. Whatever it is, I have complete faith that you guys will figure it out. PS CFS Thanks for the comment on the other thread. I'm glad to know that we can disagree (stongly) and cut up here with no hard feelings.

Carlos: "4. It wasn't just one year that it was faster than the 911 as you refer to but every, read it again EVERY year it was in production. There's that annoying reality again." Wrong again. The 911 3.3 Turbo (300HP-1385Kg) was not only faster than the 400lbs heavier 928 but it was the fastest accelerating production car IN THE WORLD at that time, until 1985 with the introduction of the Countach QV. Read the specs. I wonder why the 928 didn�t sell too well. Carlos:"5. CFS if you're driving a lowered 996 on the street I scoff at you. You may be able to go around a corner marginally faster than I. But when you are at the dentist getting broken teeth repaired after going over a speed bump. I'll be motoring hapily with my 928 induced smile intact." Only marginally faster? your optimism doesn�t seem to amaze me And ride a 996 with the 030 supension before you talk about the ride, car engineering has advanced quite a bit in 15yrs. Carlos:"6. CFS if you are road racing on the street, we'll be reading about you like the famed Rick from Portland, upside down and smoking." I do appretiate your growing concern about my personal well-being "7.The car was Dr. Porsche's favorite. It's a shame he didn't get a chance to be enlightened be this group of geniuses. You could have shored up the weak spots in his understanding of the automobile." Ferry Porsche�s brainchild is the 911, he did all the enlightening for us Read the test of R&T titled "The Best HANDLING Cars in America" (I think you can read it on the R&T site archives). MARIO ANDRETTI tested a Lotus Spirit V8, C5 Hardtop, F355 Spider, Viper GTS-R, NSX Zanardi Edition, and the winner... a 996C4! What do you get when you put toghether the current platform of the most successful car in motor racing, four wheel drive (the C4 has greater grip and traction than the C2)and the most advanced electronic handling system available (PSM)? THE MOST CONTROLABLE GT ON THE PLANET and that translates into that I can push the C4 way further to the limit w/o wrapping it around a tree which equals FASTER on the street. You can floor it around a round-about and all you have to do is point the steering and it will follow your desire (especially fun on the wet) to the limits of physics: it will apply (according to the steering wheel angle sensor, yaw sensor, wheel speed sensor, cluth sensor, gear and break pedal sensors)the torque and break to the FOUR wheels and INDEPENDANTLY... no driver can do that. Once you understand that MORE POWER DOESNT MEAN FASTER IN THE REAL WORLD, this would become obvious if you test drove a 1500lbs one-piece alum chasis Lotus Elise which can run circles around you and me with only 150HP. Anyway, do you still think the 996C4 is "slow"? Carlos from Spain PS: "Deepl" I stand corrected, I though that the Mondial was more poweful, but its not. I�ll change the example: F360M faster than the F455 Manarello . And true, "Porsche... regardless of the model, 911 or 928, there really is no substitute."

What happened to Rick from Portland? Did I miss something? I hope he is allright. What's with all this 928vs911 stuff, they are both great cars. I always thought the 928 looked really cool but I always loved the looks of the 911 as well. As far as the Z06 goes, that is a very impressive performer. Just wish it wasn't a Chevy with a cheap interior and ****ty dealerships.

Mr Admin, Thanks a lot for preventing me from posting.

Rick took a prospective buyer of his car for a test drive and decided to impress the guy with his DE instructor driving skills. He ended up loosing it. Landed on the roof smoking. I'll say this to all the Michael Schumacher wannabees out there. Any race driver will tell you. If you don't crash once in a while, you're not pushing hard enough. If you test the cornering limits of any car regularly, you will crash. Racers have roll cages, 5 point harnesses, guard rails, gravel traps, F1 curbing, helmets and fire suits. All of our cars have capabilities above those of most cars on tracks on any given sunday. Test these cars on regular roads on a regular basis and be prepared to pay the consequences. Hopefully no innocent non-paticipant will have to pay as well.

Dear Maxeemum, Keep a current e-mail address - and I'll continue to allow you to post, too. Have a wonderful day, Maxeemum.. John D.

Carlos, just curious, but wasn't the 928 supposed to be faster than its same year N/A 911 counterpart? It certainly should be! Brand new they were a boatload more, if memory serves correctly! No matter, both are fabulous cars, and I scoff at anybody who disagrees of that fact, although I've never driven a 911... yet...

Is this new anagram poster actually Maxeemum in "disguise"? Curious.

Right you are Dp, every year it was built. And regardless of how much these guys wish that would change, reality remains.

Hi Josh, Yes, "roschpe" and "Maxeemum" is the same person (or, "roschpe" is sitting in "Maxeemum's" lap, using his computer, to post ).

Deepl, the 928 was faster to the detuned 911SC but not faster than the 911 3.3 Turbo (�78-�89). Anyway, I hope nobody is getting the idea that I�m basshing the Porsche 928, because I�m a fan of ALL Porsches, and flash to all fellow Porsche�s . I was just having a little fun with a 928 driver who made some interesting statements about "handing asses back to 996 drivers" and the 996C4 being slow. Lets keep it real and count to 10 before posting, you may say something you regret later on. Although members like Gene Schumann ("white trash corvette" post)make me wanna sell my 996 Carlos from Spain

Again you say it for me, NO TURBO, NO HOPE. Event with the turbo the 930 posted slower lap times at the Nurburgring than the 928 (according to Porsche).