911 Engine oil preference

Don't really want to start another huge oil debate, just coming up for an oil change and thought i would see what the consensus was out there? My car had an engine rebuild 6 years and around 12K prior to my purchase, in that time and according to the receipts suppled it had 4 oils changes 2 with Fuch Fully synthetic and 1 with Mobil 1 (Porsche dealer) and one just stated as 10lt of fully synthetic oil? When I got the car i researched the which oil question to the point of brain ache! I ended up talking to one of the local independent Porsche specialists and they said they used (and importantly had been using for some time) they recommend Castrol Magnatec 10-40 Semi - Synthetic so that was what ended up going for. I don't drive like Miss Daisy and I don't cane the backside off the car either, I would like to do an occational track day in the future but not on the cards at the moment. I intend to change the oil and filter annually or 10000km whichever comes 1st. The car got a major service in July 2013 and by the time that comes around this year I estimate I will have done around 6500 - 7500km. Please share your experiences and thoughts.

as you're running synthetic I think you're best to stick with it I run that Penrite stuff - HPR30 20w60 (I think, i'll have to check the bottle when I get home)

Oh goody an oil thread Brad Penn 20w50 is my poison. I'm sure you've seen the oil thread on the bird, you can lose days in there. Change it often, keep it clean, seems to be the best advice.(but you already do that)

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This is not necessarily true. Synthetic oils are vastly superior to dinosaur based on every technical measure. BUT (and it's a BIG but), aircooled engines need ZDDDPPPDDPPDPPDPPDPPDDDP, which stands for Zinc something or other.  Mobil 1 is great for water cooled engines.  From memory, cars up to 964 need a mineral oil with ZDDDPP etc.  993's should get semi synth and water cooled boxers should get fully synthetic.

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Yes James importance of the Zinc content is the deal breaker I believe? Just to keep this thread on track can I suggest you post as follows: Type/Brand Oil used and how long Driving style,car usage Then we can get into the debate:)

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Your guys put fully synthetic 5w/50 mobil 1 in my 993 recently... and I recall from when I originally picked it up Scott saying that was the preference? I think the biggest problem is that opinions on which oil to use are like belly-buttons... everybody has one.

1) Nulon Street and Track Full Synth 15W/50. It gets changed every 12 months 2) Pedestrian Ave 2500km per year.

I just did some reading up on PENRITE, 10TENTHS 10W-40 has ZINC 2200+ PPM (full synth) HPR30 20W-60 has approx. 1600ppm (yep they said approx.????) Classic Light 20W-60 has High Zinc (no PPM given) I think we need at least 1200ppm for our Air Cooled contraptions. The other good one is Valvoline VR-1(so I'm told) available at REPCO. Good luck

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So what do you use? sorry Brad Penn you said.... where do you get it?

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I was more making the point if you switch from Synthetic back to Mineral a lot of the times some seals don't like it and you get random oil leaks. I know a few VW people with Type 4 motors that have done this I agree on the zinc for lubrication (although no one ever used to worry about it until the past 10-15 years)

I suppose what i'm looking for here is what oils  people have been using and for how long: e.g. Bob used ABC blah blah oil for the last 8 years and 60k with no problems.

I am using Mobil Super 1000 20W-50 as this is what was suggested to me from AH.

I did my first oil change on the 930 and used Liquimoly 20-50. Its a mineral grade oil recommended for that car also made in Germany. http://www.liqui-moly.com.au/products/motor-oil/

Theo got me onto Brad Penn and I rate it cause of it's fluro green colour that adds about 5kw at the wheels and as it comes in quarts it's extra 2 bottles are perfect top up bottles for later on. Very happy with the product and the free stickers it comes with. Distributor in Sydney does over night deliver for $12 or so.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/engineoils-products.php?id_categ=1&id_products=4 That's the stuff I use, have for 3 changes in almost 2 years. Does bump up the consumption a bit though

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In the last 10 years zinc has been reduced for enviro. benefit (and possibly other reasons). Hence the recent discussions. Newer engines are designed for low zinc oil. Older engines still need the zinc to protect the wear surfaces, particularly the flat tappet valve trains in pre-993 air cooled engines. Finding the zinc content in oils can be difficult but worth knowing to be safe. Min. 1200ppm is supposedly the safe minimum. I'm currently using Castrol Edge Titanium 25w-50.

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Interesting, i was just looking up the Castrol website and Edge Titanium 25w-50 is their recommendation for my car, but i'm sure there were others before when i looked last year? Did you find out if it meets the ZDDP 1200ppm requirement ? have you been using  it for long or is it new to the market? Sorry for all the questions...

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Edge Titanium is replacement for Edge Sport which had 1200ppm Zn. Castrol are very cagey with product info. so I haven't been able to confirm the exact numbers. I was previously running Liqui-moly Synthoil Race Tech GT1 SAE 10W-60. It might have been coincidence but my oil leaks started after I began using 10W-60. Full synthetic is not recommended for newly rebuilt engines (new rings along with head stud replacement less than 1000kms ago) So far the engine is running well.

That penrite oil is 1570ppm zinc btw

According to this the API ratings have changed and this issue in now even more vague.... http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/

Some bedtime reading... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30483

Can't you just give me the answer:)

There are two stockists for Brad Penn in the BrisVegas area-: Ian Boetcher race parts, 30 Belar St. 3281 1219 (this is where I buy it from, as they always look after me with price) Rapid, 75 Logan River Road 0418 180 734 Last time I bought it  was around $120:00 for 12 litres ($10/litre) Don't forget most other oils come in 5lt containers. When comparing with Brad Penn remember your 2 "extra" litres.

(1) I have used Penrite extra ten for three years in my race engine. Formula ford need the zinc. I monitor oil pressure pretty carefully under race conditions and am a believer. http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/1192%20February%202014%20-%20Automotive%20Engine%20Oil%20Summary.pdf Used brad penn in my 550 Spyder but to be honest it couldn't hold oil pressure when hot (dropped very low at idle as is suspect oil was too hot), suspect I needed to go up the range in grade to a thicker oil.

"Last time I bought it  was around $120:00 for 12 litres ($10/litre)" Thats not too bad and comparative to what i paid for the castrol....

Caledonian Thank you for starting this tread and attempting to get some of the reasoning behind the selection of oil for our pre-catalytic converted equipped engines out in the open. Since most forum threads on this topic quickly become a "I use this oil because it makes me feel good" rather than "I use this oil because it's actual kinematic hot viscosity suits the bearing clearances of my engine, has low cold "start up" viscosity to minimise start up wear in the ambient temperatures that the engine actually operates in, is affordable and readily available and has a zinc level of greater than 1200ppm" I've found I've been doing a lot of reading lately! To add to the links that have already been posted, I would recommend: http://www.oldjohnno.id.au/OilTables.html A good plain English summary that also raises the importance of actual viscosity rather than just relying on the SAE classifications. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf This is a rollicking good read from an oil boffin from Bolivia who wants to see his Corvair's valvetrain last. I've also noticed that the oil supplier's oil selector systems generally all recommend their latest oils rather than their higher zinc offerings. I suspect this is the result of fuel economy taking the priority in the selection recommendation. The fact that most of the local producers use the same make and model "tables" on their website selection systems that all mistakenly identifies our C3.2's as 964's doesn't add to my confidence either! Sorry, I haven't answered your question but advise I did buy a 5 litre bottle of Caltex Delo 400 15-40w for $45 to be used as "top up" for my "85 last weekend. The viscosities look suitable for the ambient temperatures I run my car in, is readily available and importantly does contain 1500ppm of zinc. Hopefully by the end of this thread, I will know what to use for my oil change scheduled in July...... Good luck Caledonian!

Since I've been kidnapped, taking about a thousand kilometres from home and have plenty of time on my hands - yes, I'm at my in-laws for the weekend - I've been able to look up all the product details for all the oils suggested so far. Results are: Most oils suggested to date don't have any zinc concentrate data available on their website so it is pretty hard to make decisions on this basis. Because API frequently mandate the maximum additive levels, depending on the SAE viscosity classes, the oil manufacturer's appear not to bother putting the zinc numbers in their product data sheets for these SM and SN classified oils. This is unfortunate as the viscosities we're interested in are exempt from max. limits for phosphorus and therefore ZDDP. Only the suggested Bradpenn, Penrite and Caltex oils have readily available zinc figures. Penrite include their Boron concentration in their "zinc+" claims of greater than 2200ppm putting them at odds with the rest of the market. Their actual zinc concentrations are usually around 1500ppm or less. We appear to have a potentially unhealthy attraction to thick oils! "What's that mother-in-law, you want me to look at your bunnions and trim your toe nails?" Sorry, I have to go....

Totally get the in-laws bit:) been there, got the T-shirt etc. Yes the ratings are what got me thinking as it appears Magnatec 10-40 does not cut it....

This was just posted in the Pelican classic oils thread

Am I the only one getting paranoid about my choice of oil? So I did a little more digging on the zddp content of Castrol Edge Titanium 25w-50 which I'm using. The fine print on the bottle states "exceeds API SG/CD". SG standard requires 1200-1300ppm zddp. Happier now.

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I was just about to go YEE HAA! until i read the bit about 20/50 being for 2.7 displacement engines, yet the Castrol website states 25-50 is suitable for our cars? no wonder this subject is so much brain ache

As soon as I posted above, I noticed Qouzl's Porsche oil post recommending 10w-60 for 3.0 litre 911's. It got me looking again. The closest, readily available oil that I found is Penrite HPR 30. It's 20w-60 with 1570ppm zddp. Available at SCA , 20% off everything this weekend. I've used Penrite oils before in older engines with good results. I'll give the HPR30 a go for my next oil change.

Out of curiosity how ridiculously priced is the Porsche oil for 5 litres compared to something with similar specs to suit our 3.0 cars? I will speak to Michael at Promotive here in Brisbane who looks after my car, I know he gets the oil custom blended for the cars he looks after so I can ask him if it is available for purchase on it's own and the specs for those who want to do the job themselves. Cheers Al

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The HPR 30 is pure mineral not synthetic, is there any concerns from going from one to the other that you know of? Just googled and found this http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/37

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I would say the closest are either: (1) Penrite HPR15 , weight is 15w/60, fully synthetic, zinc 1140 ppm. Or (2) Penrite Ten Tenths Premium 5, weight is 5w/60, fully synthetic, zinc 2250 ppm.

Guys, don't forget what the "W" stands for in 0w50 25W50 etc. it stands for winter, 0W oil is great for flowing below freezing but in a "warm" climate we don't need it. Here in Brisbane even on a cold night (Yes it gets cold here) I reckon my garage still only gets down to say 15deg C. So my oil needs to work best between that (when I first start it) and operating temp. So no need for my oil to be super thin. My .02c.

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Actually 1640ppm of zinc. They include the Boron content to bring it to 2250pm which is a practice no one else does.

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Do they mention the purpose of the boron?

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Good point, the application would make a difference e.g the Castrol 25w-50 would probably fine for QLD but you would go for the 10W60 in the cooler southern parts.

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They describe it as forming part of their anti wear additive package and complementary to the ZDDP. The point I'm trying make is that you need to look beyond the marketing hype and use the product data information to compare oils since that's the only consistent information we can access.

That is a good point about the marketing, we often take for granted that if it's a well known brand then it must be right.......

Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 This my choice. Still Mobil 1 but with high level of ZDDP. It's the zddp you are after, the oils I believe are probably pretty much the same, who knows, but if the the zinc level is up that is good enough for me. Before all this zinc level debate came up M1 was probably the most popular choice. The zinc reduction was a dirty little secret of the oil companies to keep the manufactures happy in not shortening the life of their cat converters I'm led to believe.

Dave, Do you know how much ZDDP is in Mobil 1 V Twin 20w-50? I can't find anything documented on their website or data downloads and notice that there is no mention of it on the label. You're right about the reasoning for the mandated reduction of Phosphorus (ie the "P" in ZDDP so any reduction comes at a cost to the whole compound) was to save guard the life of the converters and my recollection is that the manufacturers had to guarantee a minimum effective life of the device of 8 years otherwise they were up for the cost of replacement. What I can't figure out is why phosphorus was dramatically reduced in nearly all oils, not just the mandated 0w-20, 5w-20, 0w-30, 5w-30 and 10w-30 viscosities (where max allowable is 0.08% in SM and SN classifications unless the oil is tagged "Resource Conserving" with the "sawtooth" API label then it would apply to any viscosity)?  Since none of those viscosities would find they're way into a air cooled 911, you would think we would be safe!

I'd forgotten about this "must read" page. Everything you wanted to know, plus more, all on one page: http://lnengineering.com/resources/2014/02/28/frequently-asked-questions-about-motor-oils/ EDIT 28 Nov 2014 - In hindsight, after reading it again, I wouldn't bother reading this as some of the information presented as facts is not that factual!

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Peter, Here you go Mobil_1_Product_Guide_2010.pdf R. Dave

Excellent! Thank you PS: I was able to find a more recent edition attached. That 15w-50 looks pretty good too. Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

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Very good read! i can even understand what they are saying

Attached is my take on the world of oil for air cooled 911's as of this week. Looking forward to criticism provided it's constructive and based on facts and references.  (However if it's exceptionally witty, some poetic licence is acceptable!) Was surprised how difficult it was to get factual information on the commonly available oils like Valvoline and Shell so these have been left out unless someone can give me a link to their Product Data Sheets. I've uploaded the spread sheet so you can sort on any characteristic you like.  I've sorted it on hot viscosity as I see this as a key criterion. Anyway, I'd be pleased to hear where my judgement has erred! Cheers Peter EDIT: Spread sheet removed as now superseded by later post

That's terrific information Peter. Thanks for sharing it with us all. Cheers C

A lot of work went in to that, Excellent! Thank you.

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+1

Couldn't help but being sucked in to reading this thread, and I remember reading them all when I first bought my air cooled Porsche,especially on the US forums. You were asking for thoughts and experience... I found a lot of thoughts and not much commentary on experience when I read them all so here goes, and hope it helps... My thoughts: After doing all the research, I drained the semi synthetic oil the PO was using and moved to a pure high quality mineral oil. (It was out of Brad Penn and Swepco that seemed to include all the essential elements for the older air cooled cars). I ended up going with Swepco 306 because 1/ it was easier to find in NSW at the time, and 2/ because their 201 gearbox oil also seemed to be highly recommended for older Porsche gearboxes, so buying cartons with 5 x 306 with 1x 201 included was convenient and economical for shipping. My experience: After running 306 for over a year, I did end up with Mobil 1 in my engine for a short time after the car went in for a unplanned shop service which needed the oil system disrupted. I couldn't get my own oil to the car in time so they filled it with Mobil 1. It was fine, and I ran it for a while on the street and did one or two track days, no problems. I did however notice based on the garage floor evidence that it leaked more than the mineral oil did in my engine. Aside from start up, hard to say if it burned more, as your always topping up these cars, especially during and after track days. When I did the next oil service I changed the Synthetic out and went back to the Swepco. I didn't experienced any issues moving from original semi to mineral to full synthetic back to mineral oil, but did fully drain the engine, tank, lines etc and change filter each time. I have been running the same (old) engine for about 2 1/2 years now on Swepco 306, in a mix of city, highway (back and forth to Wakefield Park and interstate trips), plus lots of track days. The car has several lap records and won it's class and came second outright in club championships, meaning it has does its fair share of hard track work and regularly sees high RPM (as its been custom tuned and had it rev limit further increased) with no problems to date. I also use their 201 gearbox oil and find that to be good in the 915 gearbox. Again, because of track duty I change it often, at least twice a year. Whether I do it myself, or supply my own oils at major service time, changing engine and gearbox oil regularly it the best advice, no matter which oil you choose, it's cheap insurance! Because of the frequency and amount I and others were ordering, the local rep (Dan - contact: [email removed]) has started to hold more Swepco stock in NSW which saves time and freight cost of ordering from interstate in small quantities (normally comes out of Melbourne) If you choose a mineral oil, contact Dan, he gives good deals on Swepco 306 and 201 (comes in gallon containers) to Porsche NSW club members, or just tell him it's for a Porsche and he'll look after you on price (normally it's the other way round and you get gouged as soon as you mention the P word) If you choose to go with synthetic, when I needed to buy top up quantities of Mobil 1, I found it was cheapest to buy in 1 quart bottles off eBay. Happy motoring with whatever you decide.

How could I overlook Swepco! Darien, Thanks for posting and I'll update that spread sheet accordingly. EDIT: Bahhhh! No mention of ZDDP content in the product data sheet! Why do some companies make it hard for the fanatics! http://www.swepcolube.com/products/swepco-306-supreme-formula-engine-oil Further contact details for NSW distributor:

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my car has run for ten years plus on the current engine (no idea if/when it was rebuilt prior). it's happy enough on the penrite oils, usually 10w40 or similar. still running strong, no leaks, no smoke. it even lived on castrol magnatec fine - oil was being swapped out every month or so, so all the long life advantages the marketing hyped up meant nothing.

Thank you all for your contributions/thoughts/experiences and spreadsheets and while I know this topic has already been discussed/debated for ever and a day, there is some good stuff here. While i've still not fully decided which oil to use, i have now narrowed it down to 2 (now 3 with Swepco ) but i defiantly know what i won't be using. Oil be going now

And there's more! While I added in the Swepco options, it was the Amsoil 20w-50's that impressed me. Oil be off then too, it's been interesting! EDIT: Removed attachment as I've learnt a bit more since I originally created the spread sheet and there are easier ways of selecting suitable oils besides looking a constituents! See my later post on selecting oils in 3 easy steps.

OK, I admit I can't help myself! A recent post about an oil change made me think about my previous posts on oil selection for post ’84 air cooled 911’s and what I have learnt in the meantime. I think the use of my old 911’s are similar to many others where they are not used daily, only travel a few thousand km a year, I change the oil yearly because that’s what the market expects to see in the maintenance log book (and the fact that the cost of doing used oil analysis (UOA), while no doubt providing interesting some facts is not worth the expense) and generally the trips are unfortunately less than 50km at a time. When I first made these posts I was mainly concerned with ZDDP content, being readily available and having an appropriate viscosity. After a bit of research I decided to try a highly regarded mixed fleet oil, 15W-40 Caltex Delo 400 in my ’85 because it ticked all the boxes. My experience has been good, the hot oil pressure is plenty high, runs great and I definitely won’t be going back to the 20W-50 it ran before, let alone consider using anything thicker. More reading has made me realise: Oils Have Come a Long Way – The driver’s manual recommendation for this car are now almost 30 years old and there has been a lot of engine oil development in this time. When you consider the first commercial multigrade 20W-50 developed by Duckham’s to largely address the demands of the combined sump and gearbox of a BMC Mini in the early 60’s, we need to read the recommendations of driver’s manual with the knowledge of the limitations of the oils available at that time, such as the expectation of significant viscosity shearing of multigrades and be open to exploiting the technological advances that have come since. ZDDP – More isn’t better and in fact it’s the effectiveness of the overall additive package that matters. Also the restrictions on the use of Phosphorus, the “P” in ZDDP, in modern engines has forced oil manufactures to look at different additives to protect engines from wear. ZDDP has been popular because it is cheap and effective and not because it is magical. Also let’s realise that when Mezger designed this engine, no commercial oils had ZDDP as an additive and its eventual common use in our cars came about from drivers adopting newer technologies as it became available. Hot Oil Pressure – If you achieve around 10psi or about 2/3 of a Bar pressure per 1000rpm when the engine is at operating temperature, your hot viscosity is fine. Running any thicker oil will just increase engine temperatures, cause more wear from a cold start as the engine takes longer to reach the right oil operating viscosity or by causing the relief valves in the oil line or worst, the oil filter to open unnecessarily. All Cold oils are Too Thick to Provide Best Protection – There is also a commonly referenced statistic that something like 90% of engine wear occurs on cold start up, so even if this is only half accurate, cold oil characteristics are important to us. Further, irrespective of whether the oil is a 0W-50 or a 20W-50, the cold viscosity is still 8 to 15 times thicker than the ideal hot operating viscosity. So this is why we all need to drive gently until the engine and the oil in particular achieves operating temperature. So what is the Right Hot Oil Viscosity? – Porsche recommend a minimum HTHS viscosity of not less than 3.5mPa.s. Will going to a higher HTHS provide my street car better protection? Nope! The easy way to guarantee this requirement is met is to simply select an oil that complies with the ACEA classifications A3/B3 or A3/B4. Another easy way is to only use oil that has the “Porsche A40” approval marked on the container. Misinformation Abounds! – Self professed “experts” who perpetuate myths litter every forum. However if you keep looking there are a few oil gurus around worth listening to. Porsche A40 Approval – Porsche issues an approved list of engine oils for all Porsche vehicles manufactured after 1984 used worldwide. I find this list interesting for two reasons: that there are only two oils on the list that have xW – 50 viscosity classifications, the rest are 0W-40 or 5W-40 and that as a group of enthusiasts we all broadly ignore their recommendations! (I think this list is probably the best example of my first point of how oils have come a long way. Otherwise they would still be endorsing the use of mono grades shown in the table on page 92 of my 1985 driver’s manual!) Maintain an Effective Air Filter – as the dirt just finds its way into your oil where it accelerates wear. Sometimes we need a reminder of how important these are to engine longevity. Choose a Good Oil and Stick With It - Best results come from a long term relationship. It’s also the only way to get good UOA information if you want to take this to the next level of real world analysis. So what am I going to use for my next oil change? Haven’t decided yet, but I reckon it’s going to be a name brand 0W-40 or 5W-40 with at least 1100ppm of Zinc. They exist, are readily available and provide the best cold start and hot wear protection so why not exploit modern oil technology in our old cars just like we have done previously?

Mobil 1 retail pricing has gotten to the point where I gave up on it.  I think the 1 stands for '1st on the price list'.

On a similar note, dropped in to local Porsche dealer to enquire about Porsche Classic motor oil.  Guy behind the counter narrows his eyes - asks me if I want it because I like the can or because I need it for an oil change (I only wanted it for the can, naturally). Guy says all the cans in Australia are damaged, as Porsche doesn't care about boxing them up nicely before shipping them down under.  I suggested that most of the oil sales will be to people like me who only want the cans for their man cave, and that my comment should be pushed back to head office. Guy suggested I come back in a few months when new batches arrive, and he's had a bunch of people in already saying the same thing. Anyway, that's all I had to say, carry on

Gee's Pete, a bit more light reading!

I havnt seen this article mentioned, Great cure for insomnia but has huge detailed infomation.. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30483

and the debate continues.. This chart is great.. HPR15 or 10 tenth prem5  would be next for me. I like the fact it is readily available http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/1192%20February%202014%20-%20Automotive%20Engine%20Oil%20Summary.pdf

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Oh really? I hear this a lot but I'm not convinced. "Synthetic" covers a lot of different types of oil. No doubt most of it is very good, but as someone who has encountered corrosion from esters and PAOs that turn into vegemite I'm not so universally enthusiastic. It's biggest advantage as far as I'm concerned is its low temperature performance. It is often cited as having superior high temperature characteristics as well but this isn't always true - some minerals are more stable than some synthetics at high temps. And for very high temps castor is still the benchmark. For all their faults at least mineral oils are usually predictable. But anyway, I think we may be attacking this from the wrong end. Instead of asking "What oil should I use? And what do you use?" perhaps the right question would be "Who here has lost a lobe recently? And what oil were you running when it happened?" Notice I didn't mention ring, bore or journal and bearing wear. In reality, you simply aren't going to see abnormal bearing wear if you have a consistent supply of unaerated oil, even if it's only Kmart stuff. Likewise, ring and bore wear isn't normally a lubrication issue unless temps are extremely high. The only place that the unit pressure is high enough that the lubricant is a factor is in the valvetrain with most engines. And I'm not sure it's worth all the attention it's getting with regard to Porsche engines. The whole ZDDP/lost lobe thing came to a head quite a few years ago now when many US racers suddenly started to wipe out cams and lifters for no apparent reason. Cam grinders were flooded with warranty claims and the blame was placed in various areas. It took a while for the main reason (the change in oil composition) to become apparent as there were other changes (different lifter and cam core metallurgies) happening at the same time. But anyhow, things settled down once people took care to avoid some of the new style oils. But I think it's important to keep things in perspective: a lot of those engines make extreme demands on oil. Take a racing BBC for example; it wasn't uncommon for these to run well over 400lbs over the nose. Multiply this by a 1.8 rocker ratio and drive it with a lifter of only .842" diameter and you can see the loading at the cam/lifter interface is exceptionally high. Add the inertia loads from belting a heavy 55-60mm valve open at 8-9000rpms (plus a pushrod) and it's easy to see why keeping the cam alive was such a challenge. Of course these days nearly everyone runs rollers so it isn't such a big deal, but where the rules dictate flat tappets it's still an issue. Another good example is Nascar, where pushrods and flat tappets are the rule and engines run 9000rpms+ for 500 miles. The Porsche engine by contrast is very lightly loaded. There are no pushrods, the valves (and therefore springs) are much lighter yet the contact patch probably at least as big. The lift is lower and there are no pushrod cups to smoke either. Likewise the bearing loads are much smaller - a 1200hp BBC pushes that torque through only five main bearing that aren't much bigger than the Porsches. So what I'm getting at is the oil choice with these engines probably isn't such a big deal. I'm not saying you should be running KMart 15/40, but realistically you probably could. I realize everyone is just trying to get as long a life as possible from their engines, but if the oil is good enough to keep the surfaces separated then extra capacity isn't really going to gain much. But if it makes you feel good to use a super-duper synthetic go for it. The best thing you can do for a long life is to limit the number of cold starts as much as possible - and incidentally most of the ring and bore wear from cold starts is actually caused by corrosion from byproducts of incomplete combustion, not wear as such.  I'm not a triboligist (someone who studies trilobites) but I'm pretty sure oil choice for these engines isn't worth losing sleep over. Anyhow, I'll leave you good folk alone now - I only stumbled on this place accidentally (researching the Kibbert effect coincidentally) and never meant to stay.

Brad Penn (green oil) is great for 911's requiring ZDDP

Hi, if you read the link provided by au-yt : http://speedtalk.com...pic.php?t=30483 it shows through his testing that the oils with the high Zink content tend to performe not as well as those with lower zink content bloody oil,  the less said about it the better.

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The guy that wrote that is a bit of a crackpot; his methodology is suspect and his results don't align with empirical, real-world, in-the-actual-engine-results. He's been banned from a few forums for irritating people with his ongoing oil crusade.

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Howard, I hope "HowardMoon" isn't your real name and you are actually a beautiful woman as I'm sure I've got a crush on you now! As for lobe wear in air cooled Porsches, it is not unknown for them to suffer pitting and for the follower pads to wear. Hence there is broad interest in antiwear compounds like ZDDP. Warm regards Peter

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How could you tell I wasn't male?? All I want to do is build smallblock Fords but for some reason the guys won't stay focused... I've got no idea about the pad wear, but pitting is usually a sign of fatigue of the hard surface layer and not related to lubrication. I know the Pinto guys have had similar problems so it may pay to look into that. If I was looking for oil advice I'd probably listen to the cam grinders over anyone else; they are the ones with the warranty on the line. Quite a few of them seem to like Brad Penn, and all (that I know of) will void warranty if you don't use a zinc oil and their moly additive for break-in. Regards, Christina.

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Are you perchance post menopausal Christina? You realise that real men need real zinc for virility & fertility? Stuff like "Brad Penn" sounds manly enough to keep one's Penrite

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I agree. Even though M1 0w-40 is THE premium oil I can't justify $98.99 a jug particularly when it will be barely stressed before being replaced in 12 months. (And why is the 5w-50 20 bucks cheaper?) So for the A40 approved oils, Fuch TITAN Supersyn LONGLIFE 5W-40 seems the most affordable at $55 for 5 litres or 50 bucks if you ask nicely at Bursons. http://www.fuchs.com.au/ProductDetail.aspx?product_id=39550&product_name=TITAN Supersyn LONGLIFE SAE 5W-40&product_code=4153&product_category=&product_category_id=41 However today I notice that Repco have Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 on special until Thursday for $30 for 5 litres (55% off !) Ticks all the boxes for me so I bought 15 litres. Other affordable alternatives particularly if you have zddp "hangups" and not interested in the A40 or A3/B4 accreditations are the well regarded mixed fleet CI-4 oils like Delvac MX, Delo 400 and Rimula R4X. Admittedly limited to 15w-40 viscosities but easily available at about 40 bucks a jug at most servos or around $125 for a 20 litre drum from a depot. Penrite do some well priced options too but their "Extra 10" and "Full Zinc" advertising irritates me to the point that I just find them hard to take seriously. Irrational I know but we are talking about engine oils after all........

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this is the key here imo. most of us change oil regularly enough that there's barely any advantage in going for the premium stuff. when i was racing more regularly i used cheap castrol magnatec. it's fine.

Aside from the zddp issue,here is a Quote from a very well respected air cooled engine builder http://rennsportsystems.com/ Originally Posted by chaoscreature Exactly. That's why I use the lighter 5w-40. If I were to take my car to the track on a 95 degree day I would probably change to a heavier oil. FWIW,....5w oil is way too damned thin for these air-cooled engines unless you are in arctic conditions. Main bearing thrust wear is accelerated using that stuff. (Works OK in the water-boilers since their tolerances are quite different) I would recommend a 15w-40 for you. __________________ Steve Weiner Rennsport Systems Portland Oregon [phone removed] For Performance Parts and Upgrades, Machine Shop Services, & Technical Information, visit us on the Internet at: http://www.rennsportsystems.com E-mail: [email removed] Follow us on Facebook , too.

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Steve, I agree Mr Weiner is a successful engine builder but I suggest we can all learn new ways of doing things. Unfortunately the link to his website doesn't take me to anywhere in particular so I can't see the theme of that thread to comment. However I would suggest the same reasons that Steve suggests using 15w-40 over say a straight SAE40 viscosity oil is the same reasons we should consider exploiting oil developments in the last 20 years and to use a 5w-40 or 10w-40 viscosity. All these oils have the same hot viscosities of around 13 to 14 cst but the important cold start up - where the majority of wear occurs in practice - is "only" around 7 times too thick for best protection rather than 15 times too thick! I agree the early high VI oils would shear down to provide less than ideal hot viscosities but that issue has been solved I would suggest. Don't think I'm taking this change of thinking easy as I've a 35 year habit of using 20w-50 in cars that I'm now questioning! Going to 15w-40 on my last change was big step and 5w-40 on the next will be another step to better exploiting modern technology. I find this an odd claim. I'm assuming he is comparing a 5w-40 to a 15w-40. If so: Both offer the same hot temperature viscosity at around 14cSt at 100C or just greater than 3.5 cSt in the High Temperature High Shear test at 150C. The 5w -40 offers slightly better start up protection because it would be around 85 cSt at 40C verses around 120 cSt for the 15w-40. This important difference gets much greater at the temperatures that our cold engines are at start up.  However it is important to note that a 5w-40 cold is still much much thicker than a 15w-40 hot so I can't see how a 5w is "too damn thin".  Remember that multigrade oils were developed originally to reduce the cold to hot viscosity variation.  Modern high VI oils are simply another step closer to engine oil utopia. I'm not sure how a slightly quicker pumping oil (cold) can be blamed for increased thrust bearing wear. (going back to the point above about viscosity and assuming he is talking about this as his description of the bearing is a little unconventional.)   I would suggest there are other causes with greater correlation. I'd also suggest that main bearing clearances (he says "tolerances" but he actually means clearances.  Tolerance is a measure of acceptable variation to a specified clearance)  haven't changed much over the last 70 years so to say there is "quite a difference" has to be questioned. I think a better source of factual information are the fleet owners and the industry oil test regimes as this information is gained from a larger sample size and a more controlled "test" environment rather than the 99.99% of anecdotal postings on the internet that have only have at best, circumstantial root cause analysis. Sure I accept that there will always be a "thicker is better" view and variations of this and there is no doubt the thicker oils have serviced our needs in the past, all I'm suggesting is that technology is improving each day so let's exploit it. Cheers Peter. PS: For simplicity, all comments above relate to street driven cars with engines in good condition.

Hey Peter, So what's the lay of the land on high K air cooled engines? Do we stay with the old practice of using heavier oil and if so would a 20w-50 then be more appropriate?

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I've changed my view on this too and suspect the need to go to a heavier viscosity for a high kilometre engine is often overestimated. Also what is the definition of a "worn" or "high kilometre" engine? Very subjective so I would continue to use the following approach: Provided I am achieving a minimum of 10psi or about 2/3 Bar of hot oil pressure per 1000rpm, I would stick with using Xw-40 grade. (Actually the API viscosity gradings are so broad that it is more useful compare oils on their HTHS viscosities. We need a minimum of 3.5 cSt which is what we get when we buy a oil with ACEA classification A3/B3 or A3/B4. This is Porsche's recommendation for our post '84 cars as well.) If I couldn't achieve reasonable oil pressure with the above Xw-40 oil, only then would I would then seek out a heavier oil as measured by the HTHS viscosities. If this is the case I would be exploring the newer 5w-50, 10w-50 and the 15w-50 API classifications first before considering a 20w-50 because of the same cold start reasons discussed earlier which are equally valid for new engines and old. Again be wary of relying solely on the API classification alone as it is only with looking at the product data sheets that you can actually get some sense with viscosities. For example you would think Fuchs's TITAN Supersyn SAE 10W-60 would have a lower cold viscosity than Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50? The reality is that they are identical! (170cSt vs 174 cSt respectively at 40C.)

Has anyone here ever worn out an AC engine using the "wrong" oil? I'll bet that guy in the USA with the one owner 1980 SC with >600,000km untouched bottom end engine (1000L oil over the years) has used factory recommended oil weight I am a believer in not overrevving a cold engine, that's just common sense.

Don't think I'm taking this change of thinking easy as I've a 35 year habit of using 20w-50 in cars that I'm now questioning! Going to 15w-40 on my last change was big step and 5w-40 on the next will be another step to better exploiting modern technology. Peter, I surely hope for your sake that you are correct, as not being so could turn out to be an expensive mistake down the road.There is plenty of evidence of cars using the factory recommended oil viscosity and original zinc level achieving many hundreds of thousands of miles/ km if treated correctly.These air cooled cars got their reputation of reliability and being bulletproof long before thin oils and emission friendly low zinc oils became fashionable.  I seriously question trying to fix something that is not broken, with products that are not proven, to achieve what ? Newer is not always better.

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true but as per taz's post: i've used essentially every product/weight mentioned in this thread and others, over ten years across two air cooled engines (one track, one street) and others. and never noticed a difference. both have been dyno'd years apart with no loss of hp. maybe when the engine gets rebuilt.. in five years plus, at this rate, i've never had to rebuild an engine at all.. i'll take a closer look. it actually seems more important to get the gearbox oil right, than the engine oil exactly right..

Steve, I'm not advocating anything radical here at all. 15w-40 or 5w-40 aren't thin oils and any reasonable quality brand will meet Porsche's recommended HTHS viscosity. (In fact some modern Xw-30 oils now meet this requirement but I'm not advocating these as the SH and later API service categories have limits on the phosphorous contents and thereby zinc which the Xw-40 and Xw-50 viscosities are not subject to. To clarify, I'm definitely NOT advocating low zinc or low/mid SAPS blends of any viscosity for our old 911's) I'm the first to agree that 20w-50 has served us well but suggest oil technology has come along in leaps and bounds. Going from straight grades in the sixties to multigrades was a radical improvement. What I'm advocation is a relatively small change that will improve cold engine longevity and driveability and still give the hot protection we need. I'm also the "victim" of worn cam lobes and lifters in other vehicles so I well aware of what's at stake. (Although the root causes of these failures are most likely poor metalurgy and geometry rather than the 20w-50 oils I was using at the time.) One of the surprises I've had recently is discovering that the majority of new cars across the world use 5w-30 and the use of 0w-20 is rapidly increasing. Definitely not advocating those viscosities for my 911's but just shows the rate of change and the technology at work. I'd appreciate if you would read my previous recent posts and highlight any factual flaws in my proposition. However I'm  confident there isn't any as this is such a well worn path and frankly, has occurred while we've all been asleep at the wheel. Regards Peter

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Clutch, that's my increasing view too!

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Swepco or Kendall or Bobsuncle?

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Mate, my head would explode if I tried to do that, and I am sure that your research is fine. But if there are engine builders out there with many years of hands on experience who don`t agree, I for one will keep my head in the sand and go with what`s known to work rather than opt for something that theoretically should work better, but has yet to be proven in an air cooled application.

LOL, you 20w-50 guys can stick with what you're comfortable with, there is no problem with that! To get it into prospective we are talking the difference between "good" and "better" rather than "good" and "bad" Even Steve Weiner was advocating a 15w-40 so we are not that far apart. Cheers Peter

And Porsche are marketing 10W-60 nowadays!

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Let me guess Taz, you're a "20w-50 Extra 10" guy! I can't make head nor tail about the Porsche Classic oil recommendations.  It doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any real data published either.  But the graphics on the tin is nice so I guess that's all that matters in the end.

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I've admitted as much previously. I like to keep things simple across the range of old Porsches I own. Kellogg's all the way , and Australian made. If there was a Tasmanian oil I'd use that. Hmm this is promising , just whack some zinc capsules in it, healthy summer here we come

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I`ve actually been running 15/50 4 t racing mobil 1 for about 4 years now as it is within spec was the only oil I could source locally with a decent amount of zinc at the time. On a reverse note and to put this into perspective how do you think a modern car designed to run on 0/20- 0/30 or 5/40 would go on 20/50. I don`t think there would be so many different grades and types of oil out there if different engine requirements didn`t exist.

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i started on 15w40, 10w40, 5w40 etc on my engine builders advice.. his engine has been tracked even longer than mine! never used 20w anything. i don't think i know anyone who does still use 20w40 actually that's not to say it's wrong, but just seems most people have changed from it. again though, this is all the track/street car crowd so oil gets dumped so often there is no time for any long term benefits to set in.

Engine Oil for Air Cooled 911’s – Select in 3 Easy Steps The other day I was asked by someone who only has a passing interest in engine oil (can you imagine that!) on how they should select and offer the following suggestion: 1) Drive to your favourite auto parts store. There is no need to special order oil over the internet and pay high shipping for some oil that has internet folk law, just go to your local store or service station. 2) Choose your viscosity grade preference. For our purposes, something between 0W-40 and 20W-50 will be fine. Don’t waste sleep on this as it doesn’t materially matter as we will neither live long enough nor have enough objective data to be definitive in our choice. 3) Porsche A40 Approved or a Suitable API/ACEA Service Classification? Your Driver Manual probably references API service classification like SH, SJ, SL or similar which was all that was available at the time and have been long superseded by much better oils. If money is no object, just buy 10 litres of Porsche A40 approved oil. You pay a premium for this but if anyone knows best, it has to be the manufacturer. However the likely number of oils on the shop shelves that have this approval will be small, will take some reading of labels to identify these few and you will pay a substantial premium for this comfort. However if you can’t see the value in using a Porsche approved oil, I suggest choosing an oil that meets ACEA specification A3/B4. Why? The ACEA A3/B4 approval will guarantee a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) of greater than 3.5 mPa.s just like Porsche themselves specify and the relatively high ash (SAPS) limit of 1.6% does not adversely limit the use of anti-wear additives. There are other good reasons too but that's for another time. Using the ACEA rather than the API classifications also makes it simpler in identifying suitable oils because of this direct correlation between what Porsche specify and what the A3/B4 specification delivers. Applying the above gives plenty of choice. For example at Supercheap Auto you could comfortably choose any of the following, depending on your brand name preference and budget: Castrol Edge 10w-60 for $79/jug Chief Cheyenne Engine Oil - 20W-50 for $25/jug Penrite HPR10 10W-50 for $49/jug Penrite HPR15 Diesel 15 15W-50 for $75 for 10 litres Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 for $34/jug Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 for $65/jug - Meets the Porsche A40 specification as well. Valvoline Synpower 10w-50 for $65/jug etc etc Keep looking and you’ll find there is another dozen or so other suitable oils on the shelves. Now how easy was that?

You need to get out more Pete you have way too much time on your hands.

Tingy, I needed to cheer myself up today and just couldn't help myself! I've done pretty good you must admit, first long oil post in 4 months so am improving....

I notice several chains seem to be having 25% off sales this weekend, might go and buy the next change worth. Key question...of those oils, which one do you prefer? My car currently has penrite in it, but that's not usually a brand I go for.

Penrite is Aussie tough , go straya

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It's pretty difficult to have one preferred oil when discounting makes it tempting to take whatever meets the  spec and save a few bucks.   Last year Repco were selling a name brand Porsche A40 approved oil at a 55% discount or $29/jug and I regret I didn't buy more at the time.  That's cheaper than the oil I normally put in my kid's junkers! I've tried hard to base my previous post on cold objective fact and am afraid that if I nominate a particular oil I'll expose my unfounded emotional bias with regard to brands but here goes: If I was doing an oil change this weekend I would probably buy Shell Helix HX7 10w-40 on sale for $27/5 litres from Supercheap Auto even though I know Autobarn have a same viscosity grade Castrol Magnatec even cheaper this weekend at 20 bucks a jug! (I do freely admit to favouring Castrol for transmission fluid though!) BTW: For those with an ZDDP anxiety, the Shell Helix contains 1250ppm of zinc so should give you comfort to give it a try. Then again why penny pinch when I can get Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 for $65/jug anytime.... Who'd a thunk, an oil thread with an unsubstantiated emotional based response!

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You've drunk so much Caltex you're now even sounding like Sol !

Like Sol I know what I mean Taz!

Anybody bought any of the Classic oil in the cool can? I went to local P dealer about 6 months ago and spares guy told me all cans to Oz were damaged in shipping, said id come back when new batch arrives.

Used Penrite HPR30 for years. Be very careful with any diesel oils. They have quite a bit of detergent in them. Not so good for older motors.

Yes Uncle, I certainly don't advocate diesel only classified oils for our purposes. I've assumed with the above recommendations that the engine is in good condition, has been regular serviced with regular oils and street driven. Anyone with a 356 that has run on non detergent SAE30 all its life should do some research of their own. Just as an aside for the masses that find oil labelling fascinating - stop laughing Tingy! - is that most engine oils we use are dual classified for use in both petrol engines and light duty diesels. Penrite's HPR15 Diesel 15 15W-50 that I mention above, whilst described as a diesel oil on the front label has the following dual API and ACEA classifications and can be used for both fuel types: •API C I-4 PLUS/ S L - where left of the / is the C ompression ignition API classification and on the right is the S park ignition classification •ACEA A3/B4 and E7 - where A3/B4 is the ACEA classification for high performance petrol and diesel passenger vehicle engines and the E7 indicates it also meets that specification for heavy duty diesel engines that don't run exhaust particulate filters.

Oil Consumption Update Until September last year I was using Mobil Super X2 1000 20W-50 in my Carrera 3.2 as it is the default fill at one of the big independent workshops in Sydney and I know many other owners use it too. http://www.mobil.com/AP-English-LCW/carengineoils_au_products_mobil-super-1000-x2-20w50.aspx# After a bit of head scratching and my belief at the time that I really needed a high ZDDP oil I changed to a well regarded mix fleet oil Caltex Delo 400 15W-40. http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caltex.com.au%2FFPL%2520PDS%2FDelo%2520400%2520Multigrade.pdf&ei=CSAfVZ-GCsK3mAXZ34G4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEpoPcNxzjYnsNk-B23QS0Ir9t5Kw I expected the oil consumption to remain similar or even increase slightly given the lower viscosity grade but have found the opposite to be true. Over the last 3621km it is averaging just over 70ml/1000km which is less than half it was using previously and especially remarkable when Porsche's upper consumption limit for these engines is 1500ml/1000km. For my next change due in September I'll just heed my own A3/B4 advice above.

That's sloblocks Peter How can you "formulate an effect?"

Not to stir up old threads...But my 3.2 carrera get serviced at PCM and I’m low and oil and down the coast right now. I can get my hands on Magnatec 10-40. Think this would be suitable for a top up? I’ve got a few tracks days coming up, hence got on the basics.

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I am definitely not an expert, but just a top up (I assume a litre or so) should not be too much of a problem. A full oil change when you get a chance is never a bad thing though

Thanks @MFX 👍🏻 👍🏻 also saw your latest video, thought this may help with the larger momo steering wheel, similar look but 370. https://instagram.com/tactico_racing_atelier?igshid=izmpw0w76hyh i haven’t purchased from them, but it’s on the list!