997/996 GT3 dynamics - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Riding on the coat-tails of a thread like this: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... In the interests of perhaps more threads about driving and dynamic enjoyment, and fewer about the colour and style of the thread holding seats and dashboards together... I thought it might be interesting to start a thread where people can talk about how the pre-991 GT3 cars make people feel - the kinds of handling traits they feel, or which they learn over time; how a GT3 feels the first time people drive one; how people might have to adapt driving styles compared to previous experiences in other cars or adapting to different setups of the very same car etc. How the steering feels through one's fingers. How that fantastic noise is coming from behind me rather than in front.

And so some bits of my experience after a few years of having a 997.1 GT3. Understeer - having grown up hearing about 'lethal' lift-off oversteer of air-cooled 911s, I was very reticent about the idea of trail braking in a 911. I knew it from having an Elise but if it wasn't for reading Steve Rance's posts on here I would probably still be wondering how to make a GT3 quicker than a MX5 around a track! Even a little bit of trail on the road makes a positive difference, as cmoose mentions when he took v8ksn's GT3 for a spin. On track however, the heaviest of trail braking into slow corners can't quite seem to quell the understeer. Softening the front ARB made a big difference for a lot of corners but ultimately, the understeer is still there, right up until the car does a slow pirouette... Is this the PASM effect? Brakes - stock brakes seem to make a rumbling noise whenever you really press the pedal. RS29 Pagid pads are bloody amazing (and don't make that rumble). Braking on track days hard enough to feel a bit of ABS pulse and there isn't the slightest hint of smelly brakes after a session. But is the ABS getting triggered because the diff isn't locking properly (thus the rear axle is unstable and triggering ABS)? Drilled brake discs are annoying. At least once every track day I have to remove pad material from the holes to preserve fade resistance. I do it with a bit of metal coat hanger. Bumpy roads - on bumpy B roads in France, the ride was jiggly until you simply went fast enough. On the standard PASM setting I thought the car coped ridiculously well with bumpy little deserted country roads as long you're doing more than the speed limit.

Nice thread. Not that you were asking for a highlight of the differences dynamically but the two cars are mainly separated by the PASM of the 997 and the diff set up of the 997. Essentially the 996 has both passive diff and damper set up which - when the diff has not worn heavily - makes the 996 more predictable nearer the limit. The diff set up of the 997 has an electrical over ride system which cuts in via the rear brakes after the plates wear out - which they tend to do quite quickly. From that point on the diff is pretty much managed by the rear brakes. The PASM set up tends to increase resistance to a loaded damper so if you are trying to drop the nose down on a trail, the car is trying to counter this by increasing the damper resistance. This makes things a little tricky at the limit, as there are fundamental variables effecting the car's behavior that are beyond the driver's control. This also applies to the rear brakes playing a part in rotation at apex and stabilisation under braking. Basically you need to be on your game to thread a 997 through a lap at 10/10ths compared to the more predicable and benign (relatively) 996. In the 1000's of laps that ive driven in 996's I cannot remember ever having a spin in one that wasnt caused by a puncture or mechanical issue (2). To counter that, I've had several very close calls in 997's that had me thinking 'what the hell happened there?'. it took a while to work out what was causing it and even then, it was difficult to manage All this makes it sound like the 997 is a much poorer car on the track which actually it isnt, it's just less predictable but it is possible to tune yourself into one but it's tricky. i'd be happier pounding around a circuit all day in a 996 that I would a 997 On the other hand, the pasm makes the 997 a more comfortable car to drive up to 8/10ths so for road driving it's often the prefered weapon of choice. The great thing is that both cars car be pretty easily transformed into exactly what you want them to be with sensible bolt on upgrades. Stick some high end dampers on either and you have a transformation. For the 996, the valving on the new damper will transform the car's road behaviour to make it at least as comfortable as the 997's PASM system and will unlock even more track performance, further enhancing the car's tactile nature. For the 997, new dampers will offer the same comfort on the road as the PASM system and will transform the cars track behaviour to make it as tactile and predictable as the 996 but a little quicker as the 997 shared the same underpinnings as the 996RS. Finally a diff upgrade to a cup/guards set up will tighten everything up nicely for the 996 and wont need looking at for several years. On the 997, the same upgrade will bring even more benefits as it will make the car far more predictable near and at the limit. So pretty much the same modifications will greatly improve both cars bringing out thier true potential. When set up like this, I find it difficult to choose the better car. Possibly the 997 as it has the 6RS underpinnings and a stronger engine - although I still prefer the 3.6 over the 3.8 so for me id prefer a Gen 1 car. They really do represent a peak moment in time if you are looking for an involving and rewarding driving tool. Of all the racing drivers that I most respect, almost all without exception will put the 996/7 GT3 in the catagory of the very best driver's cars ever built. Hopefully, prices will soon fall to a level where they are once again seen out in great numbers being used as Porsche intended. These cars are not about stiching, contrasting leather or other irrelivant options, they are simply about delivering a pure driving experience. Amen to that

Amen.

braddo said: On track however, the heaviest of trail braking into slow corners can't quite seem to quell the understeer. Softening the front ARB made a big difference for a lot of corners but ultimately, the understeer is still there, right up until the car does a slow pirouette... Is this the PASM effect? How do you have the rear ARB set up? Tyres? Geo? It's too early for me to feed back on ultimate on-limit handling traits as I haven't managed to drive my car on roads above 8 degrees Celsius yet (running Cup 2's) - never mind the track. I have noticed understeer creeping in where I don't think I would have experienced it in my 7.2 C2S (slow-speed, part throttle mid corner) but I put this down to not being able to get enough heat into the front tyres to make use of the more aggressive neg camber inherent on this car. No doubt I'll uncover more of it's dynamic nature as the road surfaces improve, and commitment levels increase. What I have learnt is that I absolutely love the character that percolates into every aspect of the driving experience at any speed- it somehow feels authentic, in a manner which is lacking in many other cars. I love the directness - the immediacy of reaction to given inputs. I love the ride (no worse than my sport-PASM equipped C2S), and the feeling of engineering integrity, and the reach of the ratios, and that engine. That engine.. The steering weight, the feel through the rim, and it's ratio is just right. The gear lever (after a good 15 minute warm up) feels like it's actually connected to a piece of heavy machinery, rather than it's other end waving around forlornly in a bucket of thick porridge slung beneath the car. The brake pedal pressure and resistance, and it's spacing to the throttle pedal are perfect for heel and toe-ing. It's an intuitive, well engineered, and hugely satisfying tool for enjoying the art of driving, at any speed. I think the 997 GT3 is one of the best looking cars ever made. It's not too lardy, and it's size and proportions work well on our roads, as does it's performance, meaning there are more opportunities to exercise it's potential than there would be in wider, faster machinery. I'm not hugely enamoured by leaving shards of front splitter all over Warwickshire, but that's the price of running it a tad lower than standard. Other than that I can't wait to grow old(er) with my GT3. After all, the older a 911 gets, the more stories it becomes part of, the more memories it will evoke, and the cooler it will get, Just like us.

Steve Rance said: Loads of brilliant stuff Once out of warranty, the diff and suspension will be first on my list of changes.

Excellent thread.

Or maybe a 3-axis accelerometer and DSC box?

D.no said: Or maybe a 3-axis accelerometer and DSC box? Hi Dean I I tried the DSC box. It did seem to soften the suspension a small bit but wasn't to impressed. I had the car set up at Centre Gravity before I fitted the box and the car felt great. To me it fely like I could feel what the car was doing better than with the box.

Steve Rance said: Nice thread. Not that you were asking for a highlight of the differences dynamically but the two cars are mainly separated by the PASM of the 997 and the diff set up of the 997. Essentially the 996 has both passive diff and damper set up which - when the diff has not worn heavily - makes the 996 more predictable nearer the limit. The diff set up of the 997 has an electrical over ride system which cuts in via the rear brakes after the plates wear out - which they tend to do quite quickly. From that point on the diff is pretty much managed by the rear brakes. The PASM set up tends to increase resistance to a loaded damper so if you are trying to drop the nose down on a trail, the car is trying to counter this by increasing the damper resistance. This makes things a little tricky at the limit, as there are fundamental variables effecting the car's behavior that are beyond the driver's control. This also applies to the rear brakes playing a part in rotation at apex and stabilisation under braking. Basically you need to be on your game to thread a 997 through a lap at 10/10ths compared to the more predicable and benign (relatively) 996. In the 1000's of laps that ive driven in 996's I cannot remember ever having a spin in one that wasnt caused by a puncture or mechanical issue (2). To counter that, I've had several very close calls in 997's that had me thinking 'what the hell happened there?'. it took a while to work out what was causing it and even then, it was difficult to manage All this makes it sound like the 997 is a much poorer car on the track which actually it isnt, it's just less predictable but it is possible to tune yourself into one but it's tricky. i'd be happier pounding around a circuit all day in a 996 that I would a 997 On the other hand, the pasm makes the 997 a more comfortable car to drive up to 8/10ths so for road driving it's often the prefered weapon of choice. The great thing is that both cars car be pretty easily transformed into exactly what you want them to be with sensible bolt on upgrades. Stick some high end dampers on either and you have a transformation. For the 996, the valving on the new damper will transform the car's road behaviour to make it at least as comfortable as the 997's PASM system and will unlock even more track performance, further enhancing the car's tactile nature. For the 997, new dampers will offer the same comfort on the road as the PASM system and will transform the cars track behaviour to make it as tactile and predictable as the 996 but a little quicker as the 997 shared the same underpinnings as the 996RS. Finally a diff upgrade to a cup/guards set up will tighten everything up nicely for the 996 and wont need looking at for several years. On the 997, the same upgrade will bring even more benefits as it will make the car far more predictable near and at the limit. So pretty much the same modifications will greatly improve both cars bringing out thier true potential. When set up like this, I find it difficult to choose the better car. Possibly the 997 as it has the 6RS underpinnings and a stronger engine - although I still prefer the 3.6 over the 3.8 so for me id prefer a Gen 1 car. They really do represent a peak moment in time if you are looking for an involving and rewarding driving tool. Of all the racing drivers that I most respect, almost all without exception will put the 996/7 GT3 in the catagory of the very best driver's cars ever built. Hopefully, prices will soon fall to a level where they are once again seen out in great numbers being used as Porsche intended. These cars are not about stiching, contrasting leather or other irrelivant options, they are simply about delivering a pure driving experience. Amen to that Hi Steve Just wondered what the tell tale signs of the diff being worn on a 997.1 GT3

D.no said: I think the 997 GT3 is one of the best looking cars ever made. It's not too lardy, and it's size and proportions work well on our roads, as does it's performance, meaning there are more opportunities to exercise it's potential than there would be in wider, faster machinery. This is very personal and subjective, but I think the 997 GT is the pinnacle. The 996 GT3 is very, very pretty and dynamically, but to me it lacks a little of the visual drama of the 997 GT3. D.no said: I'm not hugely enamoured by leaving shards of front splitter all over Warwickshire... I've got Staffordshire covered for you, as well as bits of North Wales. Still, new splitters are only £120. D.no said: I can't wait to grow old(er) with my GT3. After all, the older a 911 gets, the more stories it becomes part of, the more memories it will evoke, and the cooler it will get, Just like us. Totally and absolutely this. I did consider selling at one point, but it would have been a mistake and the plate I have is there to remind me this is a keeper: For me too, it's too early to profess any real knowledge of the limit. I did a couple of trackdays last year at Oulton and the Nurburging, but did not get the car fully set up until the end of the year. I had PCCBs on and although they were superb, I was paranoid about wrecking them - they're now safely stashed and I have Alcons & Pagid pads to trash.

evodarren said: Hi Steve Just wondered what the tell tale signs of the diff being worn on a 997.1 GT3 It’s a 997 GT3 is the biggest sign. The standard diff plates are useless if it’s not been upgrade it will be fubar. Other signs are instability while braking hard and struggling to put power down coming out of sharp bends

Steve Rance said: They really do represent a peak moment in time if you are looking for an involving and rewarding driving tool. Of all the racing drivers that I most respect, almost all without exception will put the 996/7 GT3 in the catagory of the very best driver's cars ever built. Hopefully, prices will soon fall to a level where they are once again seen out in great numbers being used as Porsche intended. These cars are not about stiching, contrasting leather or other irrelivant options, they are simply about delivering a pure driving experience. Amen to that Definitively Amen to this! We need more such threads

Steve Rance said: Nice thread. Not that you were asking for a highlight of the differences dynamically but the two cars are mainly separated by the PASM of the 997 and the diff set up of the 997. Essentially the 996 has both passive diff and damper set up which - when the diff has not worn heavily - makes the 996 more predictable nearer the limit. The diff set up of the 997 has an electrical over ride system which cuts in via the rear brakes after the plates wear out - which they tend to do quite quickly. From that point on the diff is pretty much managed by the rear brakes. The PASM set up tends to increase resistance to a loaded damper so if you are trying to drop the nose down on a trail, the car is trying to counter this by increasing the damper resistance. This makes things a little tricky at the limit, as there are fundamental variables effecting the car's behavior that are beyond the driver's control. This also applies to the rear brakes playing a part in rotation at apex and stabilisation under braking. Basically you need to be on your game to thread a 997 through a lap at 10/10ths compared to the more predicable and benign (relatively) 996. In the 1000's of laps that ive driven in 996's I cannot remember ever having a spin in one that wasnt caused by a puncture or mechanical issue (2). To counter that, I've had several very close calls in 997's that had me thinking 'what the hell happened there?'. it took a while to work out what was causing it and even then, it was difficult to manage And have I not been saying for 10 years that the 996 GT3 is easier to drive due to IT BEING MORE PREDICTABLE :-) In fact I have lost count how many times I have said it :-) and lost every post I have ever said this. lol o well people catch up, or I have to wait for you to confirm it lol then every one believes me, I just have to wait 10 years for my posts to become relevant.

Cunno said: evodarren said: Hi Steve Just wondered what the tell tale signs of the diff being worn on a 997.1 GT3 It’s a 997 GT3 is the biggest sign. The standard diff plates are useless if it’s not been upgrade it will be fubar. Other signs are instability while braking hard and struggling to put power down coming out of sharp bends Sadly, Porsche have, apparently, now stopped making the Cup diff plates for the 997 GT3... I am considering my options, but basically, what Steve Rance and Cunno say is also echoed by Mike at Sports & Classic who looks after my car.

Ive had mine over 6 years now. Tried many different cars to compare if I replace it. None come anywhere near it. I know they are faster handle better, buy boy when you get it right in the bends it rewards like no other car. I went ou with a friend who owns a 488 spyder , 812 superfast and a McLaren 675lt . He was in his Mac on Cup2,s and mine is running normal pilot sport 2,s I know on a track the Mac is fabulous , but we went for a spin on some great B roads. It was very damp and cold the Mac couldn't get grip and was sliding under acceleration and braking. My GT3 just left him and was pulling a nice healthy gap over a 3-4 mile section. Dry road, I know it would have been different,. But the 997 GT3 has just enough power and dimension to use well on a country lane.

D.no said: How do you have the rear ARB set up? Tyres? Geo? When I bought the car the ARBs were both on full stiff. The one change has been to soften the front bar to half-way (there are 5 holes I think). It really made a difference to how the front keys into the road, say on just a trailing throttle into a medium speed corner, whereas on full stiff it felt like you'd always need to be on the brakes a bit to get the nose to grip. Tyres were originally road P-zero pirellis - they really don't have much grip but not sure it's in a nice way. Have been on Cup 2s for a while. Geo is due a look - just factory settings I think. So much of my car's mileage is on motorway that I don't want to go aggressive, i.e. driving out of London to and from country roads, track days, family day trips etc... Plus a couple of continental trips). One handling trait I have found intriguing - discovered at Coppice corner at Donington - being a long corner it felt like you're stuck with some understeer for a while on steady throttle, until you can get to the corner exit phase. I started getting braver and eventually found that full throttle could be applied way earlier and instead of increasing understeer, it killed the understeer! But only on full throttle. It doesn't feel like a drift or a transition to oversteer, but it seemed to pivot the car slightly inwards enough that it puts the car on the line you want. It's how I imagine rear wheel steer might feel. It made me wonder if there is an element of passive RWS in the suspension. Or that my suspension is f ked. Whatever it is I like it!

braddo said: One handling trait I have found intriguing - discovered at Coppice corner at Donington - being a long corner it felt like you're stuck with some understeer for a while on steady throttle, until you can get to the corner exit phase. I started getting braver and eventually found that full throttle could be applied way earlier and instead of increasing understeer, it killed the understeer! But only on full throttle. It doesn't feel like a drift or a transition to oversteer, but it seemed to pivot the car slightly inwards enough that it puts the car on the line you want. It's how I imagine rear wheel steer might feel. It made me wonder if there is an element of passive RWS in the suspension. Or that my suspension is f ked. Whatever it is I like it! Mine (prior to geo work - I've not been on track since) does feel similar. I think it's as if the car either want you to be trail-braking or accelerating, fairly positively, in order for the front to load or unload. In the wet, there is a limit to this, but it's relatively benign.

evodarren said: Hi Steve Just wondered what the tell tale signs of the diff being worn on a 997.1 GT3 It’s a 997 GT3 is the biggest sign. The standard diff plates are useless if it’s not been upgrade it will be fubar. Other signs are instability while braking hard and struggling to put power down coming out of sharp bends

Subjectively, I just don't like the interior of the 997; it somehow looks like a Honda to me. The 996 is ageing better in that regard. Also, throw a 996 on BBS split rims into the discussion, and the exterior preference for the later car crumbles. At which point, you have to acknowledge La Source has it right; you want both , although his garage is deficient because he doesn't have a Gen 1 997, just a Gen 2. First world problems.

anonymous said: [redacted] As an aside, I thought thst your piece on the 996RS that you drove was one of the best reviews of any car that i've read. You described the car's character very well

How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder?

n12maser said: How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder? You can probably get close - but the RS does have different suspension mounting points which was the reason it was introduced anyway.. as an homologation run for the new mounting points for the updated race car. Can you replicate that on a 'vanilla' GT3

n12maser said: How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder? Whack on some 20% stiffer springs, drop 15mm out of the ride height, add some more negative camber, set the front toe to parallel, and you won’t be a million miles off. That’s somewhat tongue in cheek, but all joking aside they’re really not that far removed from a “cooking” Mk 2, different front uprights, different rear subframes, tweaked damper and spring rates. Engine is a different matter, but chassis wise, not a million miles away. Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 25th January 19:02

TDT said: You can probably get close - but the RS does have different suspension mounting points which was the reason it was introduced anyway.. as an homologation run for the new mounting points for the updated race car. Can you replicate that on a 'vanilla' GT3 My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve

evodarren said: I I tried the DSC box. It did seem to soften the suspension a small bit but wasn't to impressed. I had the car set up at Centre Gravity before I fitted the box and the car felt great. To me it fely like I could feel what the car was doing better than with the box. Interesting. I wonder how easy it is (for the DSC manufacturer) to program the module to simply have a single setting. So instead of the PASM damper stiffness being range 1 and range 2, the choice was simply stiffness 1 and stiffness 2. It would make them 2-stage passive dampers. It would be interesting to see how that might make the behaviour of the car more predictable.

braddo said: Interesting. I wonder how easy it is (for the DSC manufacturer) to program the module to simply have a single setting. So instead of the PASM damper stiffness being range 1 and range 2, the choice was simply stiffness 1 and stiffness 2. It would make them 2-stage passive dampers. It would be interesting to see how that might make the behaviour of the car more predictable. My understanding from what some people have told me is the dsc box works better with regular 997 and turbo. Spring rates on Gt3 are quite a bit firmer and it’s hard to make the suspension ride soft over bumpier roads.

evodarren said: My understanding from what some people have told me is the dsc box works better with regular 997 and turbo. Spring rates on Gt3 are quite a bit firmer and it’s hard to make the suspension ride soft over bumpier roads. The GT3 solution to softening the ride over bumps is just to drive faster.

braddo said: The GT3 solution to softening the ride over bumps is just to drive faster. Lol true. Before Centre Gravity played with my car it used to skip and fly over the bumps. It was set up from the factory in its hardest setting . I used my car 90% on road so they set it up softer. It’s now lovely on a good uk country road.

Slippydiff said: My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve Yep, the RS pick up points were homologated for the AMLMS and FIAGT championships to reduce bumpsteer. As Slippy says that really comes into play at the lower end of the ride height ranges so the benefit is marginal. On saying that there is a small difference in the feel of an RS which generally tend to feel more on tiptoes. However you can create the vast majority of the dynamics of an RS relatively simply from a stock 996GT3 and I still believe that this is where the smart money is spent. Let the collectors clamber over the 996RS and build something almost as good for half the price from a Cooking GT3.

n12maser said: How easy is it to get a bogo 996 GT3 to feel and handle like an RS I wonder? Slippydiff said: My understanding is those modified pick up points were indeed introduced to correct geometry deficiencies at race car ride heights, and by my reckoning that’s probably 30-40mm lower than you’d run ANY 996 GT3/RS on the road, so their influence on a roadgoing 996 GT3 RS set at the manufacturers recommended ride heights would be barely discernible. Over to you Steve Steve Rance said: Yep, the RS pick up points were homologated for the AMLMS and FIAGT championships to reduce bumpsteer. As Slippy says that really comes into play at the lower end of the ride height ranges so the benefit is marginal. On saying that there is a small difference in the feel of an RS which generally tend to feel more on tiptoes. However you can create the vast majority of the dynamics of an RS relatively simply from a stock 996GT3 and I still believe that this is where the smart money is spent. Let the collectors clamber over the 996RS and build something almost as good for half the price from a Cooking GT3. So much one could say on this thread...but for now, on this question. To pretend to use exact science to a subjective answer, a 996 GT3 comfort feels 97% like a 996RS, a 996 GT3 clubsport about 98% (it does feel a tad stiffer than the comfort especially if a full cage is installed) of a 996RS. If you are a committed driver on road or track you can upgrade the suspension on the 996 GT3 to make it 102% of a 996RS. Naturally a 996RS is a very special car. When the delta premium of a 996RS over a 996GT3 used to be circa 30-40% many more people could make the decision to make the jump. Now that is more like 100%, it is a tough call for most. The 996RS is also more collectible now so most purchases are from collector types than driver types...but that is the way the market has gone. Eyes closed (metaphorically and not actually!), I could tell which car I'm driving. The 996RS feels that little bit: - lighter (~50kg), - noisier (less sound deadening, perspex rear window), - angrier (typically 10hp more than 996GT3), - livelier (standard suspension and pickups designed for running at lower ride height) However, all the above enhancements are in that 2% I mentioned earlier. As I've posted here before, my 996GT3 with uprated brakes, diff (which needs doing on all GT3s), Nitron suspension, and good geo, not only feels better to me than a standard 6rs, but is also in my hands faster over a lap. Also, lets not forget that a car half the price will also gain 1-2 seconds of additional commitment by most people So really it comes down to: - if money no object, then the 996RS is king and for committed drivers one could apply the above enhancements to it - if you are a collector of rare, unique, homologation cars, and if you can afford it, get the 996RS - if you are a driver and just want a very analogue driving experience from a track car that was engineered for racing, then get a 996 GT3 ....I think they are a bargain for what they do and will always grow in reputation in time (though truth be told the delta between a 996RS and 996GT3 will continue to grow) - I am ignoring the current softening of the market but talking longer term. All imho of course. Thread decoration.... The standard cars: ..and the 996RS killer:

I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. . I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed. I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it. Daily was a 987 now 981. Drove the GT3 the other day, first time since September - differences are immense. From the 981 it's like stepping out if a "nice" car into a thoroughbred. It feels like a car from a different era altogether. It's alive, throbbing at idle, impatient, chomping at the bit to be let off the leash. Once warm, the engine note as you climb up the revs has a wonderfully harsh metallic, mechanical edge to it. It's addictive, even at sensible speeds you revel in how alive it feels - how alive it makes you feel. And that's priceless. You feel everything through the steering as it wriggles around. You hear everything. An amazingly widely staged range of noise from the engine which varies at different revs like an orchestra. You wonder what your favourite bit is. So you wind it all up again to consider it further. So full of character. It's instantly responsive to inputs, the throttle, the steering. Like a big grown up go kart. As an exercise in driving it's totally immersive, you can lose yourself in heeling and towing, blasting out of corners, feeling the weight moving for you. So many memorable drives get locked away in your mind. Seemingly mundane journeys can be transformed if the mood takes you. It's an event. You feel as though this is a secret best kept untold. Often because you feel nobody else would understand - not in my social circle where everybody is driving the latest greatest paddle shifting turbo assisted bhp monster from Italy, These Shores or Germany. It feels a bit like cheating. Nothing anywhere near the price range comes close.

Singh911 said: I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. . I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed. I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it. Daily was a 987 now 981. Drove the GT3 the other day, first time since September - differences are immense. From the 981 it's like stepping out if a "nice" car into a thoroughbred. It feels like a car from a different era altogether. It's alive, throbbing at idle, impatient, chomping at the bit to be let off the leash. Once warm, the engine note as you climb up the revs has a wonderfully harsh metallic, mechanical edge to it. It's addictive, even at sensible speeds you revel in how alive it feels - how alive it makes you feel. And that's priceless. You feel everything through the steering as it wriggles around. You hear everything. An amazingly widely staged range of noise from the engine which varies at different revs like an orchestra. You wonder what your favourite bit is. So you wind it all up again to consider it further. So full of character. It's instantly responsive to inputs, the throttle, the steering. Like a big grown up go kart. As an exercise in driving it's totally immersive, you can lose yourself in heeling and towing, blasting out of corners, feeling the weight moving for you. So many memorable drives get locked away in your mind. Seemingly mundane journeys can be transformed if the mood takes you. It's an event. You feel as though this is a secret best kept untold. Often because you feel nobody else would understand - not in my social circle where everybody is driving the latest greatest paddle shifting turbo assisted bhp monster from Italy, These Shores or Germany. It feels a bit like cheating. Nothing anywhere near the price range comes close. Totally agree! Yes, maybe a secret best kept untold Quick, close the thread!

Singh911 said: ..... GT3 stuff ..... Amen!

I had always promised myself a Porsche 911 from before I held a license. So roll forward a few years (OK more like couple of decades) & the time was right to take the plunge. Why mess about go straight to the top… I was going to get a 911 Turbo. Went over to Porsche Reading, started talking & they explained about how the 997 was imminent. Anyhow took out their 996 Turbo demonstrator. To be honest it was is that it? Fast yeah… very fast. But somehow it wasn’t what I expected from a 911 (this was after all the first one I’d been in never mind driven). So after further discussion gave them a letter of intent on an 997 Turbo, which was due in a couple of years. This timeframe suited me. Roll forward a couple of years, no news on the new 997s & I’m getting impatient so stroll down to a local indie dealer. There’s this guards red 911, with odd looking spoiler on the boot lid. “Whats that then?”…”It’s a GT3”… “Whats one of them” … “oh it’s a more basic 911, with better engine, that costs more”….. “hmmm looks nice…can I take it out?” …”yeah sure”….. So off I trundle for a drive ….. Oh boy…. that’s it… that’s what I thought a 911 should be…. having it. So I did. It had so much feeling, felt so alive. Those were in the days when 996 GT3’s had not got a huge fan club…. It was 18months old at 80% of list price. I really didn’t know what I’d bought, just liked the colour the appearance, but most importantly the way it felt. Since then I’ve driven it at Silverstone, Bedford, Angelssey, Oulton, Cadwell, Spa & the Ring. Get a lap right at somewhere like Spa & the feeling is great. They can be pushed so hard & yet are so stable, but still with life, not skittish, but don’t feel like they are dead. Driving down a bumpy B road you sometimes feel like it is trying to throw you into the nearest bush, but you soon realise to not hold the wheel too firm, not fight it & it will sort itself out. Every time you push it to the red line the noise just makes you adopt a silly childish grin. They still draw positive comments regarding the looks & guards red with the gold BBS split rims is simply the best combination out there! The ride can be a bit firm, for normal road use if your passenger wants comfort. Wife maintains she needs to wear a sports bra if she has to go out in it!

Singh911 said: I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. . I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed. I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it. I'm pretty sure it's largely you fault. Is your car LHD? Did you do an RMA track day a a very wet Spa in 2006? If it was you, sincere thanks for the pax lap. That was my first ever ride in a GT3 and really switched me on to what, exactly, a GT3 really is.

GT03ROB said: ... great stuff... That reminds me that being a passenger in a guards red 996.2 GT3 being spanked and drifted around Snetterton was my first experience of a GT3. It was eye-opening. And nauseating by the end... And my wife was regretting the lack of a sports bra in my car last weekend.

braddo said: And my wife was regretting the lack of a sports bra in my car last weekend. Spots Bra you say https://youtu.be/6iwsCMJ-ZDc

I’ve had my 997 variant now for 10 years 90k miles including 6 euro hoons of 10 days or more, 2 trips to Scotland and what must be over 100 Trackdays. It’s one car which you can really do it all and I have enjoyed every mile I have driven behind the wheel. It might be worth half as much as a prestige example, but I honestly couldn’t care the memories are worth more to me than a few extra quid. I really enjoy how you can make these cars move around regardless of your skill set the more you learn how to drive a 911 the more rewarding is the driving experience and even after so many TDs I personally don’t get bored, just love the way the car responds to throttle and brake input and how you can change the line through bends, being able to brake later than basically anything else on track and then picking up the throttle at the apex and just give the beans on the way out. I’d never get bored of the way the engine revs and how they howl once over 7000rpm. Combine that with a alpine pass and a couple of like minded mates in similar car with the noise bounce back at you off the mountain face is something I’ll never forget true memories. Edited by Cunno on Saturday 26th January 17:02 Edited by Cunno on Saturday 26th January 17:07

Digga said: Singh911 said: I'm nowhere near as capable a driver, not anywhere near as technical as others in here - here are some thoughts from just a driving perspective. . I've have my 996.1 GT3 comfort with buckets and half cage for 15 years, came from a 993 which I had for 6 yrs. Will never sell it. It's standard apart from .2 GT3 brakes, manthey exhaust and rebuilt dampers/springs refreshed. I used to do track days in it - now fewer but i do a lot more euro road trips in it. I'm pretty sure it's largely you fault. Is your car LHD? Did you do an RMA track day a a very wet Spa in 2006? If it was you, sincere thanks for the pax lap. That was my first ever ride in a GT3 and really switched me on to what, exactly, a GT3 really is. Yes i was there in the LHD car. Fun filled day that was

Great thread. In terms of 996 vs 997 i can only compare the .2 versions each back to back. Out of the box and on the road I definitely preferred my now departed 996.3 gt3. It always reminds me of a very grown up 106 Rallye. On track it was great particularly at somewhere like Snetterton. At Spa I actually prefer the 997.2 it feels a little more with me at speed however this could be due to the car being a bit more track orientated in terms modification. The Surface Transforms are sensational bits of kit and are wonderful on track. Sound wise 996 all day long if OEM however the 997 with an akropovic is amazing. Im sadly out of my 996 now due to wanting to clear some.wedding debt but luckily can still steal the 997 keys from the old man and have a lovely little Cayman R to keep me entertained.

Braddo I’ve got a 6.2, I’m not a good enough driver to tell you about how it feels from a technical pov, but I can vividly remember my test drive And also the one in my 964 and that was 13 years ago ! It felt SO different ! I’d owned a 996 C2, but the noise of the gt, the pull from the engine, the way it revved, the way it felt ALIVE, inside it felt special to.....the nomex recaros, the harnesses, the cage, the centre console delete, it felt like a race car for the road. I was lucky enoughh to have the cash in the bank so I just had to have it, I knew within a few hundred yards I was having it ! Negotiation was futile I was putty in the hands of the seller and he knew it ! Broke all the buying rules as I did with my 964, I bought the first one I went to view, but that’s 911s....for the marketers out there it’s the pull of the teenage bedroom poster syndrome, the want is there simmering for years and years before circumstances allow it to happen, any way I don’t want to stray from the point of your thread!

And so good to see whom I regard as the proper Porsche afficiandos to be posting,

Singh911 said: Yes i was there in the LHD car. Fun filled day that was Thank for the passenger laps, really appreciated. I'd no idea how powerful the GT3 brakes were until that point, or how late you can brake these cars. This trail braking was something I instantly got - it seemed very intuitive to me and the way, in my mind, I wanted a car to work. A revelation.

You're welcome. Enjoyed reading this https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a19693746/po...

Thanks for this thread, braddo. It's reminded me to dust off my 996 and drive it. I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't done a track day for a year now. I learnt to drive in 6 GT3, by which I mean not learnt to drive but learnt to DRIVE, if you see what I mean. It started with autocross events in a 996 Carrera. I couldn't understand why my times were so poor. The front kept washing out on tight corners and I was one of the slowest cars on track for about a season. Then I read up on the 911's handling characteristics and learnt to get that front tucked in. I'd heard someone had handed his year old cobalt blue 6 GT3 back to the OPC, so I popped round before it was put up for sale. The salesman was only too delighted to have it off his hands the same day it came in. It was a steal in those days (esp as this was Dubai where cars depreciated like mad). I moved to sprints and then eventually wheel to wheel in the local club racing championship. I remember the first time I put slicks on it, with standard suspension. The tyres gripped like mad but the body listed like a ship in a storm. Soon fixed that with some KW Mantheys. Then I learnt to play with geometry and setup, although if truth be told it's still a mysterious dark art to me. The car morphed with me, and my skills improved. By the end it was halfway between an RS and a Cup car, and I think I was getting pretty quick. I can still remember the mad adrenaline rush when the lights went green, and that first corner when you think everyone will wipe out. When I came in for the halfway pitstop, it was curiously surreal. Sitting in the intense heat of the cabin, bathed in sweat, absolute calm and quiet whilst I watched the smoke rising from the brake pads. A heady cocktail of rubber, coolant, oil, clutch and sweat. I should have bottled it and patented it. When I came back to the UK, I stopped racing for a few years and when I dabbled in a few club races I found I'd lost the art of trailing. It was embarrassing, frankly. I've made a promise to myself to try harder this year. There's nothing on sale like it anymore. The only things that appeal are the GT3 Touring and the M2 Competition, both in manual. Otherwise everything leaves me cold. I live not far from the McLaren factory. Every time I see one, I think meh....

r4_rick said: .... I don’t want to stray from the point of your thread! Don't worry, your post is exactly what the thread is about. It's great to read these stories of how these cars feel 'right' almost instantly to some people when they get behind the wheel for the first time.

A man can never have enough GT3s. In any iteration it's the car the vanilla 911 should have been in the first place. There are faster cars out there but few are as direct, immersive, exciting and able to edge you on to become a(n even) better driver every time you get into it One of my favourite memories is driving a slightly fettled 6RS on wet/rainy Ascari circuit. This thing just felt so right

I had a great early morning drive yesterday. Car got a bit dirty though... Unfortunately I encountered some roadkill on the motorway that couldn't be avoided and I had to drive over it. I think it was a badger... I found this when I got home. The front brake duct and the mudflap thing in front of the rear wheel have also been dislodged so I'll have to see if they're broken.

Somewhat odd question, has anyone run their GT3 without the rear wing? I'm pondering deleting my (raising, Carrera) spoiler, but if it's vital to kill rear axle lift I'll work out a way to keep it.

It doesn't do a lot despite appearances. On most tracks for most users it will be fine.

This Topic made me pop to the garage uncover my 996.1 CS K400 and first, just have a coffee while looking at her and then a 20 drive. Great topic.. this thread should keep me away from swapping to a GT4 for a few weeks. I came like a few of you, from a few 993’s into a 996.1 GT3, sold it in 2011 for a Cayman S then a Cayman R followed soon after as the ‘event’ was not there when I drove the Cayman S. The Cayman R was a great car but I always wanted back into a GT3, came close to buying a 997.1 comfort. So I can’t compare the 996 v 997, and I’ve only done 3 or 4 trackdays in my driving lifetime so again, I’m not the man to say about handling. But I’ve driven many super cars, hot hatches and like and nothing comes close to a GT3. Just the feel, the pantomime even as you’re walking up to the car I still get butterflies. Then as the key turns and that great engine raws to life, I’ve had no better feeling of a car. Great package. Mine has just covered 59,000 miles and is as tight as a drum. Plus from any angle looks like a 20 year old car. Any handling advice always appreciated. Dan

Dan911 said: This Topic made me pop to the garage, just have a coffee while looking at her I thought I was the only one that did this. Lol

I've had my 996RS for 15 years. No way I'd get rid of it. I added a 997 RS 4.0 to the garage last year, and as great as that car it is not as visceral and adjustable as the 996. Great to see a proper thread about driving on here again.

Somehow I've managed to not drive any 6gt3 despite driving pretty much every other one of the 9X6 range. .. But (and I am admittedly biased here) but I do think the 7.2s mark the last of the era in terms of cars that are 'analogue' or at least analogue-ish to drive. the 991s are very good and extremly capable but just... different imo. Still don't think I've driven a car made after 2011 that's had anything like the overall amount of feel/involvement in all respects as the 7gt3s.

Old story but I remember having spent a season racing a 996 cup. Lots of laps lot of races blah blah. In my mind, the cup was a quantum step up. I’d had literally 1000’s of laps in GT3’s. gen1’s 2’s and RS’s previously but during that season there was a lot of racing and I’d had no time to help out at track days during the year with set ups etc.. I think I’d subconsciously even left it behind. Then, at the end of the season I had occasion to take a 6RS for an MOT. Expecting a softer, blunter, less visceral experience I was stunned. Basically, I was driving a quieter cup car with carpets and a number plate. It wasn’t a ‘well there is definitely a mutually shared dna’ thing. They were essentially the same car. Given that any 996 GT3 is not that far off of an RS, they offer a genuine GT race car experience. Not a ‘bending of the rules pretending’ but a genuine race car experience for the road. For that reason my love affair with the 996 GT3 will never end. Wonderful, Spectacular cars. Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 27th January 20:00

isaldiri said: Somehow I've managed to not drive any 6gt3 despite driving pretty much every other one of the 9X6 range. .. But (and I am admittedly biased here) but I do think the 7.2s mark the last of the era in terms of cars that are 'analogue' or at least analogue-ish to drive. the 991s are very good and extremly capable but just... different imo. Still don't think I've driven a car made after 2011 that's had anything like the overall amount of feel/involvement in all respects as the 7gt3s. We do need to fix this and get you behind the wheel of a 996 soon....let's make it happen in the next few months.

LaSource said: We do need to fix this and get you behind the wheel of a 996 soon....let's make it happen in the next few months. Very kind I want you to have another go in the boxster too... So I'm sure we can figure something out once it gets warmer!

What a great thread. Brings back a lot of memories of my 996.2 GT3 that I bought from an OPC in the middle of winter. Great fun even in the snow. I always found it struggled on bumpier B roads but I took it to the Alps and it devoured the miles. 600+ miles in a day on the motorway with some music on and then spectacular on the twisty bits. 3500 mile round trip in comfort with no issues. The engine was the star, really something special. The car was so interactive and full of feel. I’ve been lucky enough to have had most generations of fast 911 (2.7RS to 991.2 GT3) and while I really love the old stuff, the 996 GT3 is right up there and by far the best / cheapest way to get a top class driving experience at the moment. I’m very tempted to get another - the current Porsche performance bargain if ever there was one!

So...to add a bit of dynamic colour to what these cars are like to drive, I have pulled together a side by side video clip of the above 996 GT3 and a 997 GT3 RS at Spa. Now I do not profess to be a champion driver - just an enthusiastic amateur like any of us here. With each of these cars one could choose to stay on circuit for 40 minute endurance stints if so desired - the amateur driver will fatigue before the car! I thought it would be interesting to see how the cars differ over a lap...and (to my mind) how the 996s are not all that slow compared to one of the later mezger cars - yes of course I'm sure more seasoned drivers here can point out that one or the other car could be driven a lot better Both cars are stock engines and on Mich PS Cup2 tyres. The 996 is on Nitron 3-way race suspension. https://youtu.be/Efw0vxwROEA (I did get distracted by a Radical behind me at the end of the 997 lap in the chicane and overshot a bit, but it gives the general idea anyway) As Steve says above, it does show any 996 punches above its weight. Edited by LaSource on Sunday 27th January 20:36

Digga said: Your pictures from Portimao always look ace - reliable weather is a real bonus when booking track days months in advance. O/T Always wondered, what route do you use to get the car there from the UK? Beautiful sky, sharp sun, southern Europe....can't be rivalled for pictures Plus a nice place for a short break. Cars go on transport...drivers fly in. It is a circa two+ day drive which you could do as a road trip if your partner is up for it...but then it becomes an even longer 'holiday'

And a great track , have been twice always sunny in November but watch the February events as had a fair bit of rain . An epic track to drive though , and nice nearby beaches . As for slicks on road cars , you often need a more extreme camber set up which makes it interesting on the road . Another thing is the amazing pace road tyres have progressed in relation to slicks . I think road 991.2 GT3RS , on R tyres is a few seconds faster than a 996 Cup on slicks around a short track .

LaSource said: Cars go on transport...drivers fly in. It is a circa two+ day drive which you could do as a road trip if your partner is up for it...but then it becomes an even longer 'holiday' Mrs Digga and I are out there in a few weeks, coincidentally, just up the road in Monchique What's the freight cost like?

Digga said: rs Digga and I are out there in a few weeks, coincidentally, just up the road in Monchique What's the freight cost like? It’s a nice place for a mini break. Monchique is nice up in the hills. Though they did suffer a bit in the wild fires last year. PM me about the Portimao track info.

LaSource said: Digga said: rs Digga and I are out there in a few weeks, coincidentally, just up the road in Monchique What's the freight cost like? It’s a nice place for a mini break. Monchique is nice up in the hills. Though they did suffer a bit in the wild fires last year. PM me about the Portimao track info. I drove through where they had the fires - very sobering - nothing left as far as the eye could see for mile after mile.

996 RSR at Spa , long race needs special mid race refreshment ..... Russ style

hunter 66 said: 996 RSR at Spa , long race needs special mid race refreshment ..... Russ style Quality :-)

LaSource said: Digga said: Your pictures from Portimao always look ace - reliable weather is a real bonus when booking track days months in advance. O/T Always wondered, what route do you use to get the car there from the UK? Beautiful sky, sharp sun, southern Europe....can't be rivalled for pictures Plus a nice place for a short break. Cars go on transport...drivers fly in. It is a circa two+ day drive which you could do as a road trip if your partner is up for it...but then it becomes an even longer 'holiday' I've done it a couple of times and driven down to Estoril and Portimao - awesome track I agree - and stopped overnight in Bilbao then the rest to Cascais, drove to Portimao and had the car trucked back, did it in 980 and 991rs. Found after the drive there and two trackdays cheap flight back was ideal. Edited by 993rsr on Thursday 14th February 11:39

993rsr said: I've done it a couple of times and driven down to Estoril and Portimao - awesome track I agree - and stopped overnight in Bilbao then the rest to Cascais, drove to Portimao and had the car trucked back, did it in 980 and 991rs. Found after the drive there and two trackdays cheap flight back was ideal. Edited by 993rsr on Thursday 14th February 11:39 Awesome pics. It is a great circuit...such a rolercoaster! Last year many of us were there for the first time and it is a circuit where not only passengers but even some drivers were suffering from motion sickness! Very undulating, blind crests, etc. I was amused by the last left hander on the lap were you see sky UNDER the car in front as you both crest a rise We also did a night session at Portimao and that was very very cool - First time I've driven at night at speed on a circuit with no floodlights!! You really do not blink! Plus with standard lights (not dynamic lights and not rally car like multi beams), you can't actually see the apex until you are on top of it, so braking and turning points are totally different - a bit like the rain you are driving on more instinct and feel than actual vision!

^^^^ That’s very

BrotherMouzone said: ^^^^ That’s very No mate, the last thing you'd need is dark glasses there, even if you name was Jake or Elwood Blues!

Digga said: BrotherMouzone said: ^^^^ That’s very No mate, the last thing you'd need is dark glasses there, even if you name was Jake or Elwood Blues! ^^^^ That’s very

BrotherMouzone said: Digga said: BrotherMouzone said: ^^^^ That’s very No mate, the last thing you'd need is dark glasses there, even if you name was Jake or Elwood Blues! ^^^^ That’s very

hunter 66 said: Another thing is the amazing pace road tyres have progressed in relation to slicks . I think road 991.2 GT3RS , on R tyres is a few seconds faster than a 996 Cup on slicks around a short track . Marvin Dienst was lapping about 2-3sec a lap quicker in a 991.1 RS vs a 2004 996 GT3 Cup on fresh slicks at Serres (lap times in the low 1:20s) so I can only imagine the delta with a 991.2 would be bigger...

LaSource said: ... We also did a night session at Portimao and that was very very cool - First time I've driven at night at speed on a circuit with no floodlights!! You really do not blink! Plus with standard lights (not dynamic lights and not rally car like multi beams), you can't actually see the apex until you are on top of it, so braking and turning points are totally different - a bit like the rain you are driving on more instinct and feel than actual vision! I wonder if it would be the one time it is acceptable to have fog lights turned on in clear conditions.

993rsr last picture looks like Estoril another fun track , that straight into the first bend ...

hunter 66 said: Another thing is the amazing pace road tyres have progressed in relation to slicks . I think road 991.2 GT3RS , on R tyres is a few seconds faster than a 996 Cup on slicks around a short track . Well....cup 2 R tyres are a bit of a special case to be honest! Especially at close to €4k a set...

isaldiri said: Well....cup 2 R tyres are a bit of a special case to be honest! Especially at close to €4k a set... and only the best part of 300 fast miles in them !

hunter 66 said: 993rsr last picture looks like Estoril another fun track , that straight into the first bend ... You are right Pete, had both the images in the same folder. Did you see the video of the Ferrari that went straight on there, nasty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7G-lcBkmX8

Holy Fooook , that is not nice , the 993 GT2 R was so fast down the hill that the body work was about to vibrate off .... But the 488 must have had a brake failure

hunter 66 said: Holy Fooook , that is not nice , the 993 GT2 R was so fast down the hill that the body work was about to vibrate off .... But the 488 must have had a brake failure Options: Brake Fade Brain Fade Vote now.

ugh that did not look good - wonder if there were any signs about the disc failing or if you are just screwed as it works and then it doesn't

Thought I recognised the car and plate .. great trip 3 circuits in a week

hunter 66 said: Holy Fooook , that is not nice , the 993 GT2 R was so fast down the hill that the body work was about to vibrate off .... But the 488 must have had a brake failure We had an R8 go off there when I was at Estoril, stopped the session for over an hour as front of car and tow hook was buried in the gravel and they had to dig front of car out to use hook. Luckily it was near lunchtime...

That is a real braking zone ( like Portimao ) , and a great double header trip ...

993rsr said: What car were you in Ralph? Looking forward to the same trip in September My 981 Cayman S PDK with Ehresmann 3.8L engine. I'll be there, just waiting on fuller details.

gtsralph said: Thought I recognised the car and plate .. great trip 3 circuits in a week What car were you in Ralph? Looking forward to the same trip in September Got some decent video on their promo at 16 seconds https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5JzK2E30QQ Edited by 993rsr on Thursday 14th February 17:33

gtsralph said: 993rsr said: What car were you in Ralph? Looking forward to the same trip in September My 981 Cayman S PDK with Ehresmann 3.8L engine. I'll be there, just waiting on fuller details. Cool will be there not sure in what as the 991 has gone. You must know Tim R with the heavily modded Cayman R lovely guy.

Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event .

hunter 66 said: Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event . Can’t help it you know me :-) It was fantastic had a great time with Ade (keepitlit) who is an absolute riot.

993rsr said: Cool will be there not sure in what as the 991 has gone. You must know Tim R with the heavily modded Cayman R lovely guy. Yes I know Tim, we chat from time to time about doing unnatural things to Caymans. I'll still have the 981 but might have another to take.

993rsr said: You are right Pete, had both the images in the same folder. Did you see the video of the Ferrari that went straight on there, nasty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7G-lcBkmX8 That's a proper bad day at the office Lucky he didn't take the car in front out, could have been catastrophic.

hunter 66 said: Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event . Can’t help it you know me :-) It was fantastic had a great time with Ade (keepitlit) who is an absolute riot.

993rsr said: hunter 66 said: Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event . Can’t help it you know me :-) It was fantastic had a great time with Ade (keepitlit) who is an absolute riot. Here some more footage from that trip https://youtu.be/e_vaOfT7dJc

Slippydiff said: 993rsr said: You are right Pete, had both the images in the same folder. Did you see the video of the Ferrari that went straight on there, nasty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7G-lcBkmX8 That's a proper bad day at the office Lucky he didn't take the car in front out, could have been catastrophic. Fuk thats a nasty fast impact,not very clever where the other car stopped also! We must go again. Portimao was fun in the wet in the 73 beastie.

Digga said: Your pictures from Portimao always look ace - reliable weather is a real bonus when booking track days months in advance. O/T Always wondered, what route do you use to get the car there from the UK? So adding more to this, here is a picture of the trucks! I went to Portimao with 'Parabolica Events' last year and will be same this year - this year it is Ascari and Portimao double header in April with a road trip between the two circuits. Low volume, minimal rules (in a good safe way), and lots of friends. This year there is also some serious firepower attending - (eg a couple of Sennas, Viper ACR-E, etc). Think I might have to take extra high speed film just to make sure I manage to shoot any of them Pics from last year: There is a clip of the night lap is on the Parabolica YT page. For those who might enjoy a bit of video as well (why doesn't PH have proper video embedding features? this is so last decade!) https://youtu.be/BP9Oyn-33xQ Edited by LaSource on Thursday 14th February 19:25

Cunno said: 993rsr said: hunter 66 said: Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event . Can’t help it you know me :-) It was fantastic had a great time with Ade (keepitlit) who is an absolute riot. Here some more footage from that trip https://youtu.be/e_vaOfT7dJc Ade sent me that kindly, good video from 5:40 ;-)

Cunno said: 993rsr said: hunter 66 said: Haha , opening shot JC sideways , who would have thought . Looks another good event . Can’t help it you know me :-) It was fantastic had a great time with Ade (keepitlit) who is an absolute riot. Here some more footage from that trip https://youtu.be/e_vaOfT7dJc Fun trip. Christ it was hot.

993rsr said: Ade sent me that kindly, good video from 5:40 ;-) Good vid.

ttdan said: Fun trip. Christ it was hot. I assume the heat would be played havoc with tyres? Portimao is quite a killer on the front left.

LaSource said: ttdan said: Fun trip. Christ it was hot. I assume the heat would be played havoc with tyres? Portimao is quite a killer on the front left. I struggled with rear end grip all week. As Jon’s video, first and last few mins shows

LaSource said: I assume the heat would be played havoc with tyres? Kills catalysts too

During the 2007 Silverstone 24 we were lying 3rd overall and I was driving at 2.30am. By then the plastic reflective markets on the trackside has all been flattened by various excursions and it was hard to see. I think that an RSR was first and Michael Vergers was second (subsequently taken out by Richard Hammond. He was not amused). Anyway, fog started to come down and by 2.00am it was really thick. I called Steve Winter who was on the pit wall, told him that I couldn’t see anything and asked the pace of P1 and P2. He said they had both just done 1.58’s and asked what I wanted to do. I said I’ll try to match them. The next few laps were the most frightening that I’d ever done in a race car. I couldn’t see the bridge along hanger straight until I went under it. All the reference points were gone. It was truly scary. Then there was a weird glow somewhere ahead to the right of me. It turned out to be a car on fire. Steve called me and told me to slow down straight away and slowly go to the grid and form up in P3. The race was paused for about 2hours until the fog lifted. I remember walking away from the car as it sat on the grid breathing the a sigh of relief. You go into a completely different zone when you are racing in those type of conditions Edited by Steve Rance on Friday 15th February 07:33

Slippydiff said: 993rsr said: You are right Pete, had both the images in the same folder. Did you see the video of the Ferrari that went straight on there, nasty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7G-lcBkmX8 That's a proper bad day at the office Lucky he didn't take the car in front out, could have been catastrophic. Quite, it looked like he did a sterling job of avoiding, but the car in front almost seemed to see him coming too. Always awful to watch stuff like this.

LaSource said: There is a clip of the night lap is on the Parabolica YT page. For those who might enjoy a bit of video as well (why doesn't PH have proper video embedding features? this is so last decade!) https://youtu.be/BP9Oyn-33xQ Yes, I can fully appreciate why there's no time to blink! I do a lot of mid week night time mtb rides - very similar jeopardy. Impressive driving in that environment.

Steve Rance said: During the 2007 Silverstone 24 we were lying 3rd overall and I was driving at 2.30am. By then the plastic reflective markets on the trackside has all been flattened by various excursions and it was hard to see. I think that an RSR was first and Michael Vergers was second (subsequently taken out by Richard Hammond. He was not amused). Anyway, fog started to come down and by 2.00am it was really thick. I called Steve Winter who was on the pit wall, told him that I couldn’t see anything and asked the pace of P1 and P2. He said they had both just done 1.58’s and asked what I wanted to do. I said I’ll try to match them. The next few laps were the most frightening that I’d ever done in a race car. I couldn’t see the bridge along hanger straight until I went under it. All the reference points were gone. It was truly scary. Then there was a weird glow somewhere ahead to the right of me. It turned out to be a car on fire. Steve called me and told me to slow down straight away and slowly go to the grid and form up in P3. The race was paused for about 2hours until the fog lifted. I remember walking away from the car as it sat on the grid breathing the a sigh of relief. You go into a completely different zone when you are racing in those type of conditions Edited by Steve Rance on Friday 15th February 07:33 Although I haven't done the level of racing you mention above, it does echo what it felt like driving to a lap time in reduced vision (night time) and bad lighting. You egg yourself to go faster, taking risks, yet fully aware that unlike a well lit dry track, the balance of skill vs luck has a greater weight on the luck side in reduced vision. You are a lot more likely to collect an unseen spinner ahead of you in low visibility and are relying on no one else spinning on circuit! You also drive on 'autopilot' after a while...which is a little different to the autopilot one may do on a long day time track stint but one where alert levels are a higher. ..and when you get back to the pitlane you count your lucky stars that everything is still in one piece!

just a quick update - took a while, but the nice looking 996.1 is out. so now back to searching. Might still get the 996.2 checked over as the information I received so far looks quite good.

Is there a link to the 996.2?

alfapork said: Is there a link to the 996.2? you'll have to scroll a few pages back - it was listed at c 80k euros on mobile.de

A bit of thread resurrection, firstly because the way that cars are getting snapped up at higher prices at the moment suggests there might be a few newish owners around these parts, who may enjoy a bit of reading about attributes of their new cars that aren't value or spec related. And secondly, because I have a new little factoid to add. Front-end rattles - in years gone by there have often been threads about front-end rattles that owners (and garages) have struggled to diagnose. From memory the comments I saw were usually attributing the noise to any of ARB droplinks, top mounts or the dampers. Owners would say it was mostly the noise that was irritating and there was usually no ill handling effects. A new source (to me at least) suggested to me by NineExcellence is the front brake pads. Something like this - it is not uncommon that they can rattle around in the calipers even with the correct shims etc because the adhesive soon breaks down with very high brake temps. A way to test is have one's foot on the brakes very slightly when going over a rough surface to see if the rattle disappears. I spent a long time being paranoid that my car had some worn bushes/links/dampers, but they all check out OK and I still had the rattle after a while. Now I can get on and enjoy my car and not care about that occasional rattle.

braddo said: A bit of thread resurrection, firstly because the way that cars are getting snapped up at higher prices at the moment suggests there might be a few newish owners around these parts, who may enjoy a bit of reading about attributes of their new cars that aren't value or spec related. And secondly, because I have a new little factoid to add. Front-end rattles - in years gone by there have often been threads about front-end rattles that owners (and garages) have struggled to diagnose. From memory the comments I saw were usually attributing the noise to any of ARB droplinks, top mounts or the dampers. Owners would say it was mostly the noise that was irritating and there was usually no ill handling effects. A new source (to me at least) suggested to me by NineExcellence is the front brake pads. Something like this - it is not uncommon that they can rattle around in the calipers even with the correct shims etc because the adhesive soon breaks down with very high brake temps. A way to test is have one's foot on the brakes very slightly when going over a rough surface to see if the rattle disappears. I spent a long time being paranoid that my car had some worn bushes/links/dampers, but they all check out OK and I still had the rattle after a while. Now I can get on and enjoy my car and not care about that occasional rattle. Well yes, and no. There’s no doubt that the elevated brake temps seen from track use can and does bake the adhesive to the point it’s ineffective and the anti-squeal “stickies” become permanently disconnected from the back of the pads, but it’s less of a problem on cars driven solely on the road. A bigger problem is people leave them out altogether or try and reuse them because they’re expensive and frequently considered unnecessary. Ultimately I’d suggest the majority of 996/997 GT3 rattles are caused by wear in the suspension components, and specifically the anti-roll bar droplink ends, failing top mount spherical bearings, coffin arm ball joints, tuning fork ball joints and worn damper rod bushes. All have been well documented over the years.

Yep. Think of if it as a heads-up that if an owner notices a new rattle at the end of a day of track fun or alpine passes, for example, it's worth checking if the brake pads are the source before assuming that a suspension component has worn out during the day.

Good thread resurrection. Portimao is still on my bucket list.

+1 nice to see a thread about driving GT3s again I went out for a lunchtime blat in my 7.1 GT3, first semi-proper drive of the year. I discovered the joys of blipping upshifts with the new LWFW I had fitted last year, something that never really seemed to work out for me with the OEM flywheel. It was lovely to be driving around with the windows down for the first time in ages. I really missed savouring the sound of the Mezger. It sounds better than ever through the M&M side-delete which I also had fitted last year. Can't wait for proper warmer weather to return!