New 911RS - calling Domster! - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Hi Simon Will defo check out the latest Autocar. Sounds like a proper Porker for a change, instead of this Cayenne nonsense El Baron is nearing battle readiness - less than a month until Silverstone, so my fingers are arthritically crossed. Cheers D

I am trying to find out info on the GT3 RS from my local Porsche dealership - but no joy unfortunately, other than equipment levels (see below). The interesting stuff like power, weight or pictures are not forthcoming. How much detail does the Autocar article go into? ___________________________ GT3 RS – Special GT3 model with more overt racecar styling, reduced weight, race-prepared body and chassis, homologation vehicle for 911 GT3 racecars, approved for road use. Spiritual successor to 1973 911 2.7 RS, as part of 911 40th anniversary celebrations Start of production planned October 2003 Based upon GT3 with the following differences: · Single mass flywheel (as GT3 MY00) to save weight and improve immediacy of throttle response · Optimised suspension geometry · Stiffer spring and damper ratings · PCCB not available as optional equipment · Lighter body shell · Air outlet ahead of luggage compartment (as on Cup car) · Large lip spoiler on front apron · Large rear wing in carbon fibre (as on Cup car) · Air inlet on engine lid · Luggage compartment lid made of carbon fibre and finished in exterior colour · Exterior mirrors with carbon fibre look finish · Plastic rear screen · Tailpipes with polished finish · One exterior colour: Carrara White with “GT3RS” decals on doors and tail in Guards Red or Mexico Blue · Wheels with matching paint finish in Guards Red or Mexico Blue with polished outer rim. Interior: · Glove compartment and cup holder removed · Suede rim 3 spoke steering wheel with airbag · Seat belts in red or blue · Air conditioning not available as optional equipment · Lightweight battery (50 Ah) Pricing: Planned to be £10,500 over a GT3, therefore c. £83,250

Am I the only one that is disappointed with the GT3RS..? An extra £10k gets you: Minimal loss of weight (bonnet/glass). No extra power. Hideous white/blue or white/red colour scheme. No PCCB or a/c available. I owned and loved a 993RS, so I am a fan of the RS concept, but this car does nothing for me.....

The thing is I don't know enough about it! I heard that the weight loss is to be quite significant, down to 1150 kg (would be fantastic), with the power staying the same. Remember it is all about power to weight ratio, and if the weight is anywhere near that is will be a significant increase in performance! Also the suspension and brake set up should make a huge difference on track. Although I have a feeling I am going to be disappointed

Its a better deal than the old 964RS was back in 1992. C2 retail £48K RS retail £61K!!

"· Glove compartment and cup holder removed" Yay! Binned the cupholders That's the spirit. All RS owners must suffer - I hope they ditched the interior light as well, so the GT3RS owners have to fiddle around for the ignition barrel in the dark like I do

Don't think so Alex. Above scenario is £13k for the Rs spec 964, ie an extra 27%. Current basic C2 is about 58k? this gives an extra £25k to have an RS spec 996 ie 43%. Ignoring the issue of the different engine block in the GT3 type 996s. DAZ Edited in light of Domster's outburst to say the cup holders should stay. They are important when partaking in long distance hoonage. >> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Tuesday 1st July 11:57

1150kg - not a chance, that would require losing 230kg from a stock GT3...... I'd guess about 60kg saving, perhaps slightly more.. Lightweight shell - 20kg (most metal was there for a reason) Carbon wing - 5kg Carbon bonnet - 10kg Rear screen - 10kg Battery, cupholders, a/c etc - 15kg Guy

Daz, DOH!! I never was much good at maths Edited coz my spelling was just as awful >> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 1st July 12:16 Edited again to add a pic of some 964's in action to help Domster through the wait for the Baron & also Dom I hope you will be driving in this style at Silverstone, imagine how scared the badgers would be with this little lot heading towards them >> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 1st July 12:36

LOL The cupholder point is interesting... ditching them must save no more than a few grammes, but represents the zealous and obsessive dieting that the old RSs went through... ie smaller screenwash bottle, no wiring for demist rear window, thinner window glass, no courtesy light, lighter spare wheel air compressor etc. That is why no cupholders are a good thing. Ditching them served no other purpose than to let the world know the RS is back in town If you want comfort and long distance mile munching, get a 996tt X50, like Daz's uberwagen It will do these duties far better than a GT3RS and will probably be quicker on most real world roads in real world driving conditions (rain, badgers etc.)

I suppose it depends on how close in specification to the cup car they go, as they are 1150 kg (wet). My RS CS is almost identical to the 964-cup car except a few minor bits of trim (to make it road legal), which makes marginal difference to the weight. Maybe, just maybe Porsche will follow the same tack, although I have a sneaking suspicion that the eventual weight will be closer to your figures than 1150kg I would like!

GUY R said;I owned and loved a 993RS, so I am a fan of the RS concept, but this car does nothing for me..... Sounds like the past tense Guy???...I thought the RS was yours in the PH classifieds yesterday,but obviously a different seller.. What next??

Well spotted - I collected a 996 GT2 Clubsport yesterday. I will try to get some pictures up in the next few days. Lets just say I am very pleased with it so far........ Guy

CRAIGW SORT OUT BRUNTERS SHARPISH, Pleeeeeezzzzzzeeeee DAZ

I just looked at that advert for an RS, yes it is my car and the bloke that sold me the GT2 Clubsport bought it from me privately yesterday as part of the deal, so frankly I am a bit surprised....... Guy

Nice one Guy....So you were not happy with 162mph at Brunters...you wanted to make sure you get the crown? I am looking for a 993RS...I may look at your old one,,,if so can I email you off line..I won't trouble you unless I am serious on the car.. Enjoy your new car it sounds fantastic and from your past posts,it sounds like you will use it as the maker intended.

I am the person GuyR is surprised at, don't know why though, no mention was made of keeping the 993rs as I have another project planned now the 996 GT2 is gone, as you said GuyR - it is my car after all and you did have the option to keep it! Anyone interested in a nice unmolested 993RS, let me know.

Hi John, I've no problem with you selling it, it is your car now, I was just stating my surprise that it was for sale immediately. As for the car, it is a truly genuine, very good condition car, never crashed, as Porsche Lancaster confirmed when they inspected it at the weekend. Good luck with the sale. Best wishes Guy PS The GT2 is lovely......

Guyr, glad you like the GT2, trust the wet trip home wasn't too nerve racking! As Guyr says, the black 993 RS is a nice genuine car. Only reason I'm selling is to buy a 993 RS clubsport and have a 'special' drivetrain installed.

Hold on a minute, so are you lot saying that you *cant* get the ceramic brake discs with the GT3 RS??? now that seems a bit of a strange decision from Porsche to me, seeing as the ceramic jobermes have supposed to weigh less (and weighing less is the very essence of an RS, isnt it?)

Good point SM,,,but we all know it is a 40th Birthday marketing RS rather than a real one.

[quote=iguana] Edited again to add a pic of some 964's in action to help Domster through the wait for the Baron & also Dom I hope you will be driving in this style at Silverstone, imagine how scared the badgers would be with this little lot heading towards them [pic] Hey -my car's in there somewhere!! Melv

GuyR - you were definitely right - 50kg less than a standard GT3 CS! What a waste of money - hardly any performance difference and it looks bloody awful! Oh well maybe they will consider bringing out an RSR

They should have got me to strip it out. Nothing weighing over 3 ounces would have been left in the cabin. That said, my balsa wood steering wheel has been known to fail in fast corners

I trust you checked out the guys from Reverie at PistonFest: their carbon fibre steering wheels weigh from 270 grams - just what the Red Baron needs. >> Edited by jeremyc on Thursday 3rd July 10:58

Well in away they have in all but name, in the same way that although there were big power race spec 993RSR's, the RS clubsport which is merely a striped RS was also known as an RSR. >> Edited by iguana on Thursday 3rd July 11:13

Weight is 1360kg with 64 litres of fuel. Official press relaease was Tues. See porsche site - http://www2.uk.porsche.com/isapi/english/gbr/news/pressreleases/report.asp?kapitel=news&id=41

For it to be the equivalent of an RS Clubsport they need to shed some more weight (no carpets, headlining or sound proofing) add a fully seem welded roll cage just for starters. It is far too soft (girlie) in current form!

A couple of pictures : Same colour scheme as on the original RS 72. >> Edited by Thom on Thursday 10th July 10:31

How much of a marketing exercise is this over the real soul of the marque? Do us a favour, releasing pictures of a girl driving what is supposed to be the racing heritage of Porsche. Asking you to pay (how much) over the odds for a GT3 without ceramic brakes etc. Please... I have been as close to the marque as a lot of people if not more. I have followed their fabulous cars through many thick and thin. I owned the first 964RS in the UK and as a customer helped develop many add-on parts, such as DME, exhaust, brake ducts, wide track and more. I ran the car for 9 1/2 years doing track before they became as popular as they are today. In short, I have Porsche running though my blood. I sold my beloved RS in September last year on the understanding that there would be a new GT3 and RS version coming along that would fulfill the needs of my (and many more) wishes for a "REAL" 911 for my " Real Driving Needs". Whilst waiting and feeling uncertain of the outcome, another "REAL" drivers car was becoming more of a focus of my attention. Boy, am I glad I made a decision, and I belive the right one. Instead of spending £85,000 plus on a car that is a corporate marketing exercise, I have spent £30,000 less on a car that is made with soul and passion, delivers everything a REAL sports car should do, is a UK company based, and is currently kicking the ass of just about every Porsche (including the 996 Turbo with engine power upgrade) and delivers more BHP per Ton / per £ than just about anything else. I take delivery of a Noble M12 GTO 3R in September and would love to exchange experiences with any GT3 RS owners after this period.

Cool that you are as much a Porschephile as many of us on this forum 3RTT ,,,Enjoy tour Noble and lets hope that 4 wheels stay on your wagon!

Thanks Clubsport, I'll keep you posted. I don't think you you find as many honest people as Lee Noble regarding 'Keeping the wheels on'. His reply and in Autocar and frankness to his customers is very re-assuring. I just wished (am I'm sure I'm not alone) that Porsche would bring back some real 'SOUL' to their cars, and not so much 'Corporate' and marketing hype.

Just realised the timing of your reply Clubsports.... to the minute...

Not an RS-o-phile, personally, but totally agree re. going back to roots. Infact, there is no Porsche in the current range that makes me want. Plenty i'd like, but none i'd sell the grany for...

Without decrying the efforts of Noble-Moy for one instant, it's simply pointless comparing the marques for some kind of self-cathartic point scoring. I have to fundamentally disagree with the notion that the 4wd Turbos are anything less than the benchmark for all supercar challengers and after many hugely adrenalised soirees which border on physics-defying amongst the myriad experiences of such piloted events, I am tiring of this 'non-drivers' car' accusation. Don't get me wrong: I dearly love the Noble - what has been achieved so quickly is phenomenal and the cars are receiving the appropriate accolades. Indeed, I want one. But nothing has ever delivered quite 'the package' like the Turbo. All IMHO, naturellement.

Errrr Red or Blue seat belts? Is this a Porsche tribute to the late and not very great MG Metro?

I agree with 3rtt whose words refer to a certain finesse some power overkill TT user seems to be lacking ... >> Edited by Thom on Saturday 12th July 09:36

DeR is on the ball as per usual, the 996tt and the Nobel are totally different cars. As far as the Nobel kicking the ass of the 996tt I believe you are sadly deluded. The last time I was at Bruntingthorpe for a little hoonage my 996tt drove out the gate at the end of the day. The Nobel recorded a runway speed 30 mph less and although carrying similar speed through some of the corners in the dry, in the wet it wouldn't have stood a chance. The 996tt is the all conditions supercar that has the various electronic "safety" systems making the performance more usable on everyday roads than any other car. BTW, I wish you a fantastic ownership experience with your new "what body roll" 3R. DAZ PS - If you are going to compare a Nobel to a Porker turbo on raw driving experience terms (ignoring price), compare it againts a GT2 clubsport.

Daz and Der, I think you are missing my point. I don't argue that the 996TT is a real supercar and what it is designed and built to do. That's the price you pay. My points is regarding what the new GT3 RS should realy be, and what corporate Porsche have delivered. That's what this thread is about, not so much Noble v 996TT. Please also take account of the Autocar Point to Point test a few weeks ago, and also this months EVO magazine test on Track Day cars. The Noble came out very well in both tests, beating the 996TT in the Track Day test. The Noble tested was a 3 litre with 5 speed box. The 3R has a 6 speed box with lsd plus, and will have an optional 385 bhp engine. My heart is still with Porsche and just wish (like many I believe) they would get back to a producing a real 'Drivers' Sports Car.

I'd agree that marketing wise it's a good move, but considering that the stock GT3 is a driver's car, and the RS has the cup suspension, single-mass flywheel (which is noisy and not exactly user friendly) carbon engine cover and boot lid plus acrylic rear screen (presumably w/out heating element). Also a/c not even offered as an option (whilst the "real" 964 / 993 RS's were). So I would disagree that it is not a driver's car. As for the colour scheme apeing the early 70's cars, and the low volume production I think that is marketing reasoning, but then again why not ?

So would you be happy to spend £10,000 more (than a GT3) for the GT3RS and get less ? OK a tad lighter, and 10 more horses. Keep you eyes on the motoring press when the NOBLE GTO 3R is tested and reviewed. PS. I'm in no way connected with Noble Moy Automotive.

Yes. I have the new GT3 coming in September and I'm down for the RS in February (subject to allocation). As I mentioned in my post, there are enough differences to make it worth the extra, and of course the depreciation will be better too. I saw the Mk2 GT3 at Goodwood yesterday, seems to be softer all round compared to my Mk1, so the RS will hopefully answer that. BTW, I have now seen 3 Mk2 GT3's all without air-con, seems it's been accidentally left off the order forms. As it is a no-cost option, you still have to tick the box !

I saw that,radio & a/c were no cost options...These cars are going to suffer some serious depreciation relative to fully equipped versions once the new GT3 premium is over. The GT3 Rs will be one to keep...I had the paint scheme on an '89 Clubsport,,,I don't think it works on the 996,,,but that opinion may well be turned around when I see one in the metal...maybethewill have one at the PCGB national event at the end of August.

But surely even an RS versus GTO-3R comparison needs some qualification? I mean, at the end of the day, a Radical SR3 will whip everybody round a track so perhaps, just maybe, there's more to this comparison than a one dimensional evaluation - even if it's the hugely crital (one might say 'raison d'etre') area of laptimitus. I won't dwell on the issue of 'quality' but generally, I think the 911 has a reputation that tends not to include myriad tales of woe - you don't accept unreliability under any circumstances with the pork beast but you might with the new boys because, well they're new! If you buy a car with even the faintest hope of avoiding the inevitable financial loss via depreciation then again, for numerous reasons, the Panzer back up buggies have more in common with the melting tendancies of a polar ice cap than a 99p Milko bar... And somehow (and yes, I'm sure rampant bias is at work here!), the very fact of Uncle Walter & Co's antics in a raft of contemporary 911 derivatives does imbue even the latter day enthusiast with huge passion. I think the particular taste for motorsport generally within the Porsche cognescenti is a very real testament to that most missused of automotive terms, heritage. The feeling of 'filter through' (so I'm reliably informed ) is palpable and at the end of the day, this has to be factored into any meaningful comparison. Don't get me wrong, though: I absolutely agree that the Noble is probably the most exciting, brand new, real world car, since Peter Wheeler decided he was tired of bottling anthrax.

I think / I'm sure time will tell how the NOBLE GTO 3R will stack up. Point-to-point on any road and I'm sure the NOBLE will be quicker and easier to drive than a very stiffly sprung GT3RS. On the Track only time will tell. BHP per Ton / per £....... GT3RS = Not much change from £90,000 with any extras ? NOBLE GTO 3R = £50 - £55,000 max. And just remind me which European automotive company is the most proftable at the moment and who is paying for it? This is not a knocking exercise of the marque, in any shape size or form. I will be very happy to compare notes with my NOBLE GTO 3R when I take delivery in September and any RS owners.

With these GT3 RS / Gt03R posts....both sides have a point,without going over the top,,,this particular porsche is a marketing exercise.porsche have got themselves into being able to do this partly due to the "heritage" stated above....I think the Noble is a good if not great car,but to start harking on about the value at £50-55k is madness to me...I have seen a few Noble failures in the last year and it is a shame.I am impressed with Mr Nobles engineering,expertise and ethics,but until time goes by and heritage is built (hopefully Noble car are still available) £50-55k is too much to spend on a Super kit car with a Mondeo engine. I am not trying to have a dig at Noble owners here,,,this is just how I see it...maybe when you brave guys have done the testing,I may own one in the future,but for now.No.

£10k more than the standard car - what's new - it'll still hold that premium over its "ordinary" brother in 10 years' time...1992 964 C2 lhd - £14k anyone - 1992 964 RS lhd £24k.... Acid test tho - am I the only person whose trousers tented when I saw those Autocar pics?...and what was my first thought? - 2.7 RS of course...When I first saw the pics of the Noble (fine car though it is and don't forget what Mr Noble honed his skills on) my trousers didn't tent and my first thought was "Mondeo Mk 1 rear lights"....but then I guess I'd think of a Tuscan as Noble competitor, not a GT3....

There are some tasty new and s/h cars out there at the moment, including the Noble, but the only one I am having derestrictor style dreams about is... the 996 GT3-RS I really like it... Thought it would look shite in white, but it doesn't to my perverse gaze. Just seems more wieldy than a 360 Stradale or Gallardo... and a little bit more of a classic than the Noble, in Norris McWhirter's bumper book of Auto legends. That said, I'm sure the Noble would be every bit its equal, or maybe even beat it. Just that from an ownership point of view, I'd spend the extra and get the GT3-RS (albeit when they are nice and cheap second hand... please let me buy it from you at 30% off next year, beaver ) Cheers Domster

From what I've heard is written on the wall of the Basildon Ladies Public Convenience, I think you meant "bivvied" Personally wasn't impressed by the look of the RS. Too obviously a marketing exercise and the rear wing looks like Porsche bought a job lot from Halfords. All it holidng its 10k premium proves is that some people have more money than sense. GT2/3s are nice cars though. Saw quite a few this weekend at the FoS.

Nah, that's where you are wrong The GT2 (996 shape) is a bit of a bastard son. Has lots of crap in it they should have ditched. Unlike the old 993 GT2, that was harder than a rottweiler on crack. The GT3 Mk2 is lovely. Lovelier than the Mk1, and it has brakes that actually work on track as standard. However, this is still a Domster commuting wagen. The GT3-RS however, I wager, is not merely a marketing exercise. It sure looks like it, but I guarantee a pint of beer at Black Tie and Pie that there is more to it than meets the eye. Look at a 1992 C2 and compare to a 1992 C2RS. What did an extra 15k get you? Not much by the looks of it - not even a whale tail. 'Marketing exercise' the cynical could have claimed. Yet when you see how much they changed, you're amazed they even called it a C2. They should have tried Cup GT, eh Melv? I have read the Porsche official press release. And, as someone who has oft written press releases, I can promise you that 1) it wasn't written by an engineer and 2) there were a million boring facts that never made the single sheet of double spaced A4. Those boring facts will be the little things that make the GT3-RS as quick as a GT2 around the Nurburgring with 70 less bhp. I wish the 996 GT3-RS was a marketing exercise, because it will save me fantasising about where to get 85k. But somehow I don't believe that. If ever there was a Marketing Exercise it was the aforementioned 996 GT2. A car that lost weight through expensive carbon fibre additions, but lost none of it through the omission of luxury equipment. Never before has a car so blatantly ripped off the wealthy and privileged, by giving them their need for bhp in a hugely expensive fat arsed car (compared to what it could have been), with all the comfort trimmings. Now, when are they going to chuck the GT2 engine in the new GT3-RS and create the car Porsche SHOULD have designated the GT2 badge to? PS I must point out here that I love the 996tt to bits as a GT car and road going luxury sportscar. It doesn't pretend to be anything other than the most wonderfully clever, intelligent and superb point to point road-eating machine ever created. If I was going the way of the cupholders, this would be the car. Dream garage: 996tt for commuting, 996GT3-RS for the track, Cayenne for the missus. LOL Domster

This is a great debate: Don't forget guys, I was one of the original owners of a 964 RS. In fact I had the very first RS Touring delivered in March '92. I owned the car for 10 years as a 2nd car for pleasure and Track Days (on slicks). I didn't do the 3.8 RS because I could not justify the price difference over performance. I waited through 996 for something that would come close to my 964 RS and was advised through my local delear that there would be (eventually) a 996RS coming. We are now into 2002. The news for Porsche GB was to expect 10 to 20k more than the GT3 (no ceramic brakes) and maybe 10 - 15 bhp more, lighter and retro paint job ala 72/73 RS. In the mean time a certain company in Barwell are producing a sports car that is taking the media (and customers by storm). After meeting Lee Noble and dicussing his plans for the future I bought into a Sports car that I belived would deliver everthing I wanted (Porsche RS), OK it doesn't have a badge at the moment, at a very good price. Subsequent discussions with Lee have confirmed my beliefs. Whilst there may have been some (as a % very few) customer niggles, and a very public one in Autocar, Lee Noble has been very straight and caring in his replies. Many more customers who own Nobles as a second car and other major manufacturers cars as their first car have had more serious recalls and problems. (visit the Noble threads). There is no point in naming them 1) As I don't wish for a visit from their legal bods and 2) we all know who they are. I'm still Porsche through and through, but I cannot justify paying such a high price for a GT3RS when (I believe through my experience so far) there is a very good alternative. Let's watch this space.

Want further proof that it's not just a marketing exercise ? They have deleted the cupholder ! As for the Noble debate, having been through a few TVR's I'm currently revelling in the engineering integrity/reliability Porsche stuff that lured me over to the dark side in the first place......just haven't got the patience to go back to British cars yet, although the money saving bit is a very powerful argument !

I don't see the Noble as saving money at all....If you manage to get hold of one of the few GT3 RS for £85k,,you may get £10k profit in the first 6 months..If you have it for 3 years you will probably lose £5-10k. The Noble is different,the cars are developing and getting better every 3-6 months,,Nobles bought a year ago are selling for more than £10k less than purchase price.This is not because they are bad cars,but current owners are eager to step up to 3.0 litre engines and trackday sump kits as they become available. The two companies are at very different times in their cycles,,,we obvious give Noble credit as we are discussing them on a Porsche forum. I think you need a deeper pocket to own a Noble than a modern day Porsche I ran a new 996 for 14 months and sold it at a profit,try that in a devloping car.

Dom,I haven't driven a 996 GT2,,,but what is so wrong with them. Having driven many 996 and a non X50 TT I would have thought that a 450bhp 2wd 996 with Carbon brakes would have been a blast...What didn't you like about it to slag it so??

Mmmm...... Domster, I note you don't claim to have driven a GT2, so I assume your statements are therefore conjecture, rather than experience. Yes, I agree that the 993 GT2 was a much rawer beast as compared to the 993TT, than the 996GT2 is to the 996TT. This can easily be shown by the fact that the 993GT2 saved 200kg, whereas the 996GT2 saved 'only' 100kg. However, the 996 GT2 is still a healthy 100kg lighter than a 996TT, it has a more powerful engine than either the 996TT or X50 996TT. Quoted power is 462bhp, but when a stock one was dynoed recently it made 490bhp. In addition the 2wd saves a fair amount of transmission losses vs the 4wd in the 996TT. More power, less transmission losses and less weight equals a quicker accelerating car than any other current Porker. 2wd and no PSM equals driver involvement. Carbon Ceramic brakes give amazing stopping power and no fade. Whilst the car is not as raw as the RSs of past or the previous GT2, it is a focused car. (I sold a 993RS to buy this car) As for some of the luxuries, yes they are there, but Porsche have simply found over the years that they were always added by the owners anyway, when they were free options. Almost all 993RSs have a/c and power windows and airbags. Same for GT3s.......... Remember the GT2 is only 60kg heavier than the Mk2 GT3 (1440 vs 1380) which is not a lot, especially when it has an extra 82bhp and more usefully an extra 173lb ft of torque. Oh and for about £5k I can add another 100bhp and another 100lb ft of torque to a GT2, try doing that to a GT3 or an RS....... Last point, what's the hassle about carbon? Firstly it has none as standard, the carbon in my car was added when new as an option. It also weighs similar or less than the material it replaces, so what's the problem...? Guy (A happy GT2 owner) PS No I haven't used the cupholder (which I do find odd to have), but the presence of door storage pockets is actually quite pleasing after having to store everything in the 993RS on the floor! >> Edited by GuyR on Tuesday 15th July 09:22

Maybe I came across as being a bit dismissive of the 996 GT2. For the record, I like it as something on four wheels, but hate its concept. How could I dislike something based on a car I like very much (996tt) that weighs fractionally less and has fractionally more power And no, I haven't driven one. Nor a 993 GT2. But I still know enough about the reasons, methods and aims of the creation of these cars to be able to pass comment - especially when the GT3RS is dismissed as a marketing exercise. What I dislike about the GT2 as a concept is the fact that ONLY 100kgs were taken off the weight. They could have got this up to 150kgs or 200kgs if they had 'done an RS'. The original 993 GT2 was effectively an RS with a Turbo 4 lump stuck in it. Why didn't they do a 996 RS earlier and stick a mega turbo engine in it - same as before? The answer is market forces, which is just one step away from 'marketing exercise'. There was demand for an even quicker model than the Turbo, but Porsche thought a stripped out model wouldn't sell - so they kept the cupholders and the comfort stuff. The power is very impressive, of course. Between 450-490bhp is going to be very quick, and I'm sure I would love the staggering acceleration (I was impressed enough with Daz's x50 996tt). However, IMHO, there is more to a sportscar than eyepopping acceleration. It is horses for courses, naturally, but I would prefer to have seen an RS style chassis and as much power as befits it, whilst remaining controlable and adjustable. If that was 490bhp turbocharged, then I'll take the acceleration on the side as a welcome bonus. Guy, you say the GT2 is a focussed car. But it could be MORE focussed. Its concept is compromised by the cofort and luxury they clung onto at the development stage. It should be the ultimate - an uber-RS - but it wasn't and it won't be. The 'hassle about carbon' is simply that IIRC Porsche constructed some panels of the car out of carbon to save weight, instead of losing the obvious weight (comfy seats etc) first of all. Carbon comes last in the weight loss stakes, as far as I am concerned ie you lose all the weight you can cheaply, before losing all the weight you can expensively. As for carbon trim, well it doesn't save a lot, but looks nice. That wasn't what I was getting at. Porsche buyers may add luxuries to their raw sports cars like GT2s and RSs, and maybe Porsche had their marketing reasons for creating the GT2 as they did. However, this simply means that either the owners compromise or the factory compromises for them. Is that a good thing? It saddens me every time I see any RS with comfy seats, airbag and electric windows, as surely as it excites me when I see one with a roll cage, full harnesses etc. I believe that cars are horses for courses (a phrase I am trotting out a lot ) and that if you want comfort, safety and luxuries, you have every option to buy the Turbo. If you want a Porsche that is a tribute to performance, then why not go after uncompromising weight loss and get a honed RS version? I have never seen the GT3 as an RS successor, not dynamically speaking (as it is still a fantastic car), but spirtually speaking. I hate to see compromise when a car shouldn't have been. The GT3-RS is maybe the car that Porsche should have built instead of the GT3. And the GT3-RS with a 490bhp Turbo engine is perhaps the car they should have tagged GT2. That said, I am glad that you are happy with the GT2 as it is, Guy (back to the old horses for courses analogy). It is just that I know that I'd be happier with a GT2 based on a GT3-RS, even if stuff kept falling on the floor and no interior light meant fiddling for the ignition barrel in the dark. Simply because from a spiritual point of view I'd know that Porsche had made the fastest, most uncompromised car they could. THAT would be worth spending 115-120k on. Finally, I should point out that my views are quite warped and do not represent those of the general Porsche community (or PH). To illustrate my hatred for compromise, I am building an Ultima, which will probably have even less of the user-friendly practical features the factory strongly suggest you specify. In the meantime, a 964RS can be my sensible everyday runaround for trips to Sainsburys ATB Dom

Dom,nice reply but even so it does make a big difference to drive the cars yourself before making such objective opinions. The recent autocar 40 year write up had the 964 RS as one of the less desirable 911 made...having driven one and you owning one,we know this has to be taken with a pinch of salt. I was never fussed on a 968CS,drove one and realised it is a very good car indeed. The bravado with respect to extra equipment is fine,but there is more too it than that.I don't think electric windows or a/c would totally spoil your lhd RS on a trip to a trackday on a day like today.The suspension,seats and overall build philosphy would win though with respect to the overall driving experience.

I - for once - agree with Dom. I believe Porsche have lost the plot since they have had a salesman like Wiedeking as the chairman. That's no more like in the good ol' days of Professor Schutz. >> Edited by Thom on Tuesday 15th July 11:25

Cheers guys I know what you mean about driving cars, but as long as I don't comment on the driving characteristics themselves, then I am entitled to a valid opinion. If I said 'the GT2 is shit on track' or 'too slow' or whatever, then I would be out of order or just going oin hearsay or one roadtesters opinion. But stating that I feel they missed a trick by not going the whole hog and lightening the arse of it, is fair play is it not? My gripe is that they compromised,and went half cock, with the GT2. Drive it and it is a brilliant car, I'm sure. But imagine how much better it could have been? We'll never know, because Porsche hasn't made the GT3-RS based GT2 yet. I can still hypothesise, using my experience of cars I have driven... and after having driven everything from a Caterham at 530kgs to a Bentley Arnage at 2200kgs, I feel that I can say that losing weight is definitely a good thing dynamically. A small loss of weight may not make much difference, I know that, but there is probably an extra 50-100kgs that could be lost in a GT2 which may be noticeable - even if only to more capable drivers than me. My other point was simply 'the spirit of the GT2'. It is not the road racer the 993 GT2 was. For me, the spirit of a car is perhaps more alluring than the actual driving experience. Paul, as for 964RS road reports, it is all fair comment. To some, it is a shit car. But for me, it is one of the least compromised Porsches they have screwed together this century, and I love it for that fact. The fact that it is undesirable to some is also a fair point. It just happens to be desirable to me, as the 996 GT2 is desirable to GuyR and the comfort 993RS is desirable to you. I have now driven a 968CS on track, on the limit, and it did improve in my estimation. I may yet own one - I'm a massive fan (mainly because it is so friendly on the limit and the performance is very accessible). But they weren't created with the same unwillngness to compromise as the RSs, as you will know if your CS had standard brakes and you did a hard circuit session. Electric seats and windows do make sod all difference, really, from a dynamic point of view. I'm sure the car shines through in your comfort 993RS as you say, and I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference. But I love the philosophy of the RS... the fact that they omitted the wiring for the rear demist on the 964RS despite having the element in the window... the lack of a courtesy light... These omissions will piss a modern car driver off as much as electric windows, if not more so, but they gave the car a lot of character and any weight loss does add up. It just so happens that some items are hugely practical (leccy windows, rear demist, interior light, cupholders) and save mere grammes. So why do it... for the philosophy of it. I just don't think they really have any place on something badged an RS, despite being essential on a Carrera. Getting to know a car, and living with it, exposes its character and traits. I'm sure GuyR has discovered stuff that Autocar's roadtesters blindly missed. All I am saying is that they could have taken it further dynamically, which may have made it more appealing to the ultra-hardcore Porsche buyers the GT2 was previously aimed at. Although Porsche may then have lost sales. Cheers D

Thats as maybe Thom, but give the man some credit or else we'd all be bemoaning the demise of a great sportscar manufacturer as Porsche back in the mid 90s when the only model line was the 911. Wiedekin may not be everyones cup of Rosy (he brought us the Cayenne for starters), but Porsche is very much alive and kicking, the model line has evolved into a wonderful range of cars, from mid engined roadsters to the amazing 911, still evolving to this day and still the first car you think of when you hear the phrase "everyday supercar". Then we have the Cayenne - like I said not to everybodys taste but a good income source to doubtless be reinvested, and not a bad SUV at all - certainly thats what the reviews say. And flying in the face of cynicism, right now we have the Carrera GT and the 996RS at last, proving that Porsche can still build a true supercar that could be used everyday, and a proper track tool. Pen pusher yes. But he is to be applauded.

Greg - making huge profits is one thing, being able to offer the customers a product that resembles the quality reflected by these profits is something else.

Thom..Porsche make most profit from turbo versions,compared to stsndard C4 they make look expensive...Also compare the price of 996TT to Cayenne Turbo...it doesn't make immediate sense.. Customers buy a 996 TT from Porsche because there is nothing (reliable) you can buy that will give you this performance for nearly double the price.. Customers are the big factor,if they didn't want the cars ,,they would not buy them.

Well, apart from the column stalks on our Boxster, I'd say the quality of the product is tip top, to be honest. You must be thinking of an example here Thom? Care to share it with us?

Exactly. Customers behave like consumers first then Porschephiles. This products/consumer way of seeing things is killing the core values of Porsche, like in any other brand.

The fastest road registered A-B road car you can currently buy is not a bad core value,,nor is the revolutionary carbon tub structure of the Carrera GT.

Domster, I do agree with you mainly. Another 50kg or 100kg off the car would be great, I was just saying don't assume it is a bad car as it is, it just could be better, but then so could everything........ I also think the 996 GT2 is an odd car in terms of spec/price. For the luxury buyer, the loss of 4wd, PSM and luxury options (no sunroof/PCM/phone/CD etc etc) for an extra £30k over a 996TT makes no sense. That is why the 996 GT2 has not sold very well at all. I have been told there are only 20-30 in the UK in total. Worldwide Porsche have only sold a few hundred GT2s whereas they have sold thousands of 996 Turbos. It is a niche car, that obviously only appeals to some....... Guy

As far as I know the 2.7 RS is still today the most rewarding driver's Porsche. I don't think there's much carbon in it.

Porsche would not be around today,if they did not move the game on from th 2.7 RS,as wondeful as they are. Thom I must say it is good to hear you speak well of a rear engined air cooled porsche for a change. >> Edited by clubsport on Tuesday 15th July 13:46

I do not think I "speak well", I only refer to impressions I heard here and there since I have never driven a 2.7 RS, only went in as a passenger when my old man was lent one some 20 years ago. Don't get me wrong - I am still a fierce 944 integrist but I'm giving some cars the benefits of the doubt since I have not driven these. (I still think the 1988 930 I drove is the worse bag of bolts I have ever driven ) >> Edited by Thom on Tuesday 15th July 13:59

Enough said! <--- Ironic EDITED to add ironic and arrow >> Edited by GregE240 on Tuesday 15th July 14:13

Goodness me, phrases like 'they don't make 'em like they used to' etc spring to mind..... I mean for goodness sakes thats like saying - "we won the war using propellor aircraft, so what do Boeing and Airbus think they're doing..." I bet if they had invented carbon-fibre when the 2.7RS was made they would have used it! Guy

If they had used some in the way they use it today the 2.7 RS would probably have ended with a weight around 1,500 kgs.

I agree mate.Sorry for appearing to slag it off - the best could have been better, perhaps - was the angle I was getting at. My view that the GT2 should be the meanest, scariest Porsche outside of ltd edition GT1s etc. is also a bit warped. I would love to have seen a real Hannibal Lecter machine, just to terrify all mortal Porsche drivers this side of Walter Rohrl. However, I raised the 'spirit of the GT2' with a friend who has more experience of them at lunchtime, and he said that he thought the mix of comfort and agression was spot on. Whereas I was revelling in the sheer derestricted lunacy of a stripped out no holds barred weapon, he advocated the gizmos and creature comforts. His reasoning was that 'it would be TOO hardcore for 99.9% of Porsche drivers if it was stripped out, and this would just lead to disaffection with the mark or death by badger. I still wonder whether they are thinking of doing a GT2R.... LOL

????????????//// I am a bit confused by that last post. ref 1500 kg you are aware that safety regulations on new cars have changed a lot in the last 30 years incorporating airbags etc,, It's tough in Europe but I get the impression that in Porsches largest market the USA it's tougher. >> Edited by clubsport on Tuesday 15th July 14:16

Whatever. Anyway I just think the best days of motoring are gone. Whatever the cars that come out today they will never be as good as the older ones.

Opinions vary. DAZ

I've never driven or passengered in an RS so the experience is something I'm quivering with, anticipation, to indulge in: I am quite sure that Le Baron Rouge and Babooshka McDomstress will oblige in deliverance of full and final titilation. But to all those fellow 'philes oot there in CS, RS and RSR land, I must profess to some quizzicality viz a vis the 'hard-core' nature of the various 911 chariots over the years. I know Domster thinks my old 993 a bit of a Maybach in the great scheme of things but leaving aside the prescence of air-con, electric glass, etc, I must remark on the defining factor which for me has always characterised 'hard core' in a production car context, namely, the sense of suspension compliance, or indeed, the lacking thereof. By far the most ruthless spine compressor of my acquaintance was the EVO VI Makkinen/VII GSR/Extreme triumvirate. Ludicrously unyielding to the point of actual, occasional unpleasantness. But frankly, since the boy Bilstein had a fondle with the beetle under the duvet some time ago, my 911 experience is at least as unforgiving with the sort of tramlining, badger snorting, even motorway lane hopping proclivity often read about in umpteen reviews of the old creature itself, the inimitable 993GT2. If the RS is genuinely worse than this, Sir Beck de Coll, then I shall make good use of Damart's latest range of grotesquely insulated, transcontinental polar undergarments. Sombeechale (to quote Greedo).

This is interesting, what you are saying is that Porsche don't make cars like they used to, the rose tinted glasses syndrome !! FACT cars have got heavier because of crash protection, airbags & electronics. I for one am in favour of having these safety nets on modern congested roads. Did you see week before lasts Top Gear where they showed the result of different aged cars being crashed, rather an eye opener !! Porker's are still lighter than most unless you go down the PVC body, tubular frame, non airbag route alla TVR, not for me chaps. Surely it all depends what you want from & use your car for, one mans meat being anothers poison!! Yes a GT3 or Rs will give you a more focused interactive drive, why.....you will feel every last stone chip under the tyres & the sound deadening has been removed to allow for more road & engine noise to get to your ears. Lot's of goodies have been taken out so the weight is lighter & the car "feels" more wieldy because of it. BUT it still won't be a patch on the driver interaction that a Caterham driver will experience & a Radical would leave them ALL for dead on the track. So already the Porsche GT3/RS is compromised on driver interaction against the best, but also compromised as a daily car, too noisy, very firm suspension, no toys to compensate. So isn't it simply down to what degree of compromise you want to buy into. For me I want several things from a car not JUST the ultimate "interaction". I want to love cleaning it & looking at it & for me the 996 shape is sleek & modern, not suprising that it has been one of the best selling 911 variants, vastly outselling 993's year for year...why ? I want an interior that is a pleasure to be in & looks good with some toy's ...a great stereo, aircon, PSM , airbags etc. I want to be able to use the car for my daily drive into work over B roads & for long motorway journeys. And yes I also want a great interactive drivers car... sheer adrenalin inducing grunt, great steering feel & four wheel drive adjustability, firm (but not too firm) controlled suspension & great anchors, yes the 996TT does it for me, so would any other 996 with sports suspension. I can cruise relatively comfortably with all the bells & whistles or push on down the twisty's with a bloody big smile on my face. Am I saying the TT is the best ...NO it's all down to what you want in a car & the degree of compromise between a track racer & a limo !! No Porker is "BEST" it's just what floats your own personal boat, enjoy your 993, 996,Boxter,GT3,968, RS, GT3 etc etc....It's the hot weather..rant over

Grant3, take a deep breath and have a Pimms and Lemonade on me squire! Top rant!

Absolutely. I think moderne Porsches suck, very including you power overkill GT2, but that's only my opinion. My fave cars are cars from the past, full stop. Could it be possible that I have put the nail on your head for you steaming like this ? No need to rant, peace man ! >> Edited by Thom on Tuesday 15th July 14:50

Crikey...Toys have officially been thrown out of the 944 S2 Cabriolet. >> Edited by clubsport on Tuesday 15th July 14:54

" for me the 996 shape is sleek & modern, not suprising that it has been one of the best selling 911 variants" It's a jelly mould, that's why the new shape is being introduced with more flared wings and round headlamps. The 996 brought a different customer group into Porsche. That's great and it worked. It did however reduce the appeal to many medium to hard core 911 fans, myself included.

Ruybystone will probably say: Eeee, now a rusty old 3.0 SC, in Champagne Bronze, with NO suspension, and the engine from a 356, and a flat cap holder, now that's a REAL Porsche!

Keep going boys - this is great fun to view!! Everyone knows MY 968CS is the best car porsche built, and without doubt I'm the best (and most handsome) driver to have ever graced the seat All IMHO of course ps: My only slightly relevant point is that despite prefering the 'Dominating' flavour of Pork, by removing all traces of suspension and welding fixed steel bars in place of the shocks you don't produce a better car - some compromise is ALWAYS required.

Hurrah my kind of debate well I'm lucky enough to have driven all the RS's (excl GT3RS- but then who has yet??) and despite all being RS's they are all very different, not just to each other but to the base car. I love stripped RS's but look at the comercial facts in RHD- '73 RS lightweight 17 built, 964RS lightweight 47 built (cant remember/find or even know if they did RHD clubsports- ive certainly not driven a RHD CS anyway) 993RS sub 50 built(some say 47 others 43)Clubsports 6 built, 993GT2 11. So its hardly a huge seller for the Brits to have a stripped RS. So imagine a really stripped RHD 996GT2RS really hard suspension, agressive cambers and 500+bhp no PSM or keep you on the road toys. In truth it would be a bloody handfull and still in the hands of an average driver a normal 996 Turbo (which ok is not my cuppa tea but its bloody fast) would be quicker even on track & certainly across country. A really stripped 996 GT2 maybe a great idea for Dom to not just scare a few badgers in and have the potential to wipe out an entire county full of em and I'd have maybe be tempted to have one after one heck of a LOT of depreciation but it would doubtfully sell even into double figures in the UK- seems mad when the F40 which makes even an RS seem plush out sold the 993RS No way can a modern porker approach the supple and delicate drive that a '73RS can provide but no modern motor can approach the delicacy of past versions, for a more achivable example just look at the weight put on by Golf GTi's. Still you can always have a brillient replica built for a fraction of the cost of a new GT3RS- lots of fun

Just need to edit that quote Dave-

LOL

Thom, I guess I'd best not ask if you want to hold my camcorder around Folembray again then?

Was the video THAT bad ?

Oh no here we go again........ 1...they don't build them like they used to blah blah. 2...I remember the good old days when...yakity yak. 3...It wasn't like that in my day..etc etc 4...It isn't proper Porker if it has water near the engine mutter chunter !!! >> Edited by grant3 on Tuesday 15th July 18:35

5...It was much better when the cab driver was sitting outside

Remember, all the proper Porsche horse and carriages had the pony at the back, pushing

Keep 'em coming Thom,your Porsche observations have made my day!

Pleasure ...

Domster Don't forget that carriages also got pulled by Porsche tractors with the engines in the front

I just think it's great that Porsche have clearly managed to produce enough horses to satisfy all courses - be it a 996 TT, 996 GT2, 996 Targa, 996 C4 996 C2 or GT3...they all have their fans and detractors..but they're all damn fine cars - even if Murph7355 thinks they've got big bums. Dom, damn it man after reading your eulogy to the 964RS I've started surfing the net again for one and had to stop myself buying "Top Marques" in WHS this morning

Could this be a case of the old Gallic self-removing trousers? The latest Autocar has the £85k beastie described, resplendant with the attendant red & white, classic heraldry. I wonder what our resident minimalist 'Zane' thinks of this most recent addition to the list of feng shui-spec beetles? P.S. How's el baroonie doing?