996 vs 997 - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi all Looking to realise an obsession and buy a 911. Question is - a nicer 996 Carrera 4S or a slightly leggy 997? My budget is about 26k. And also are tiptronic really that bad? Thank you.

Depends if you ask a 996 or 997 owner. A nice 996 C4S will be better than a leggy 997. Personally I'd choose a manual and go for a 2wd coupe. The 996 interior is a nice place to be when driving. Some don't like the headlights. Look at the usual engine issues on both. Best go and see and drive a few to see what you like.

I am a big fan of how the 996 4S looks and I prefer the 996 interior to the 997 interior (esp with a Centre console delete or whatever it is called). I have not driven one though, so have no opinion on the impact of the extra weight and 4wd. I am not a fan of automatic transmissions in sports cars and the 996 and 997 manual shift is really nice. As mentioned research engine issues, they do put some people off. Probably best to drive a couple of cars to get a view for which one you prefer. Good luck Edited for typos

ekulluke said: Hi all Looking to realise an obsession and buy a 911. Question is - a nicer 996 Carrera 4S or a slightly leggy 997? My budget is about 26k. And also are tiptronic really that bad? Thank you. You won’t go wrong with either. I’ve got a 996 3.4 manual, and a 997 C4S tip. They are quite different in character, but don’t ask me which is my favourite as I really don’t know..! You could use them both as a daily, and could equally take either on a trip across Europe. I prefer the cabin of the 996, but the 997 is a little quieter and more refined. Maintenance history is key for peace of mind, so avoid any car with significant gaps in it’s history. Go and drive one of each.

Thanks all. I’m intrigued by the comments especially as I thought the 997 interior would be better! I of course will view and drive some but they’re all 100ish miles away so Id prefer to narrow down my search virtually before committing too much time travelling for something that may not be a smart move.

Had a 996. Could never get past the looks or the interior. Hated it in the end. Bought a 997. Loved everything about it. Get whichever you like best, but the 996 will always be the poor relation.

Poor relation, i beg to differ. I have been looking for a C2 manual 996 for several months now and good examples are reaching the mid 20k mark rapidly. I see tons of gen 1 997 cars at around the 22k-25k mark that are a ticking time bomb and nobody is risking there hard earned on a potential 10k + engine re-build. To my eyes there seems to be far more 997 cars around. I think the C2 manual 996 car will sail past the gen 1 997 very shortly...hardly the poor relation. Didn't they say that about the 964 a decade ago....! PS: if anyone has a nice looked after manual non sunroof C2 996 for sale, please message me. Edited by stretcher on Friday 31st December 09:16

I’ve had two 996s and a 997 (as well as a 964 before and now got a 991). Obviously a lot of personal taste here but… Interior - I find the comments on interior a little hard to understand. The 996 interior was made at a time when Porsche was struggling a bit, and much is shared with the cheaper Boxster. For me, it shows and looks very plasticky, and is one of the few things that would put me off one. The 997 is to my eye much more upmarket. PDF - I sold my 997 PDF because I found it dull. Absolutely had to use Sport mode and even then not exciting. My 996 manuals were way more fun to drive. Combination of the gearbox I think, and the general softening of the car. I keep coming back to Porsche 911s because they are such a wonderful compromise between comfort for a motorway run whilst also being fun to drive. Plus you can leave them in car parks without attracting the sort of attention most equivalent cars attract. So my recommendation depends on whether your leaning is towards luxury or driving fun. If the former, go for the 997. If the matter, the 996, ideally in a manual.

stretcher said: Poor relation, i beg to differ. I have been looking for a C2 manual 996 for several months now and good examples are reaching the mid 20k mark rapidly. I see tons of gen 1 997 cars at around the 22k-25k mark that are a ticking time bomb and nobody is risking there hard earned on a potential 10k + engine re-build. To my eyes there seems to be far more 997 cars around. I think the C2 manual 996 car will sail past the gen 1 997 very shortly...hardly the poor relation. Didn't they say that about the 964 a decade ago....! PS: if anyone has a nice looked after manual non sunroof C2 996 for sale, please message me. Edited by stretcher on Friday 31st December 09:16 I thought the engine's were basically the same in both with lots of borescoring effecting the 996 also?

CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. Love that interior. Before I go and fillet the interior of my Boxster does that steering wheel pass an MOT without an airbag? I am hoping that it is a yes .

twizellb said: I thought the engine's were basically the same in both with lots of borescoring effecting the 996 also? Bore scoring is far rarer than the internet would have you believe. Regular oil and filter change (I use a 5W40 oil), and routine oil sampling ensures peace of mind.

ekulluke said: Thanks all. I’m intrigued by the comments especially as I thought the 997 interior would be better! Objectively it is. Of course it's down to taste. 997 interior is more modern coherent and refined 996 is a big shift from the air-cooled era and was/is widely disliked but I think it's pleasantly classic now

oddman said: Objectively it is. Of course it's down to taste. 997 interior is more modern coherent and refined 996 is a big shift from the air-cooled era and was/is widely disliked but I think it's pleasantly classic now I’m of the same view as you. I prefer the 996 interior to 997. I like the swoops and curves on the doors and the dash.

I guess it is down to personal opinion, but I think the 997 is better in every respect. I have driven both and have a 997 C4S as a keeper.

oddman said: ekulluke said: Thanks all. I’m intrigued by the comments especially as I thought the 997 interior would be better! Objectively it is. Of course it's down to taste. 997 interior is more modern coherent and refined 996 is a big shift from the air-cooled era and was/is widely disliked but I think it's pleasantly classic now I think a big one is that a 996 interior without a screen (or without Nav) and with a console delete looks like a purposeful / classic interior IMO. The screen dates both the 996 and the 997, but on a 997.1 the screen painted silver plastic just looks rather bad to my eyes. Having said that, it is about the driving so not that big of an issue either way. My 997.2 has the small non Nav screen and my 996 has co sole delete, buckets and a Momo - I really like the uncluttered appearance of it

Wow thanks for all the responses fellas. I definitely need to get out and look at some but the selection is lacking near me. I did a tour of 5 dealers (mix of OPC, Porsche specialist and performance). None had any 997s or 996s other than Turbos which are out of my price range. Does anyone know of any decent centres near Leeds W Yrks?

Revolution Porsche in Leeds look after my 997.

ekulluke said: Does anyone know of any decent centres near Leeds W Yrks? Looks like Strasse have a C4S in stock.

Stuart70 said: CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. Love that interior. Before I go and fillet the interior of my Boxster does that steering wheel pass an MOT without an airbag? I am hoping that it is a yes . Sailed through an MOT last week with no advisories. :-) I bought the wheel from Bella Volante, it came with all the bits necessary to make the horn work and prevent the airbag light coming on. It does cut off the view of the top of the gauges however that's never bothered me, if it does you can get an offset steering boss.

CrunkleFloop said: Stuart70 said: CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. Love that interior. Before I go and fillet the interior of my Boxster does that steering wheel pass an MOT without an airbag? I am hoping that it is a yes . Sailed through an MOT last week with no advisories. :-) I bought the wheel from Bella Volante, it came with all the bits necessary to make the horn work and prevent the airbag light coming on. It does cut off the view of the top of the gauges however that's never bothered me, if it does you can get an offset steering boss. You can add an eccentric spacer too which will raise the wheel off centre. I'm still trying to decide if I like with or without. The standard Porsche wheel is off centre like this but you probably never realised. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164169064206

I've been working on my interior and removing all the plastic. Porsche did a lot of silver, carbon and leather OEM parts which are not very common, so there are a lot of cheap looking plastic interiors out there. You can even get leather seat belt buckle, indicator stalks and rear view mirror. Even the heater fascia, mirror buttons and cup holder comes in leather. Just bought leather silver side vents, leather speaker covers and leather/carbon defroster vents. The full list is pretty extensive. Mine is a mix of all 3, carbon centre console, red seat belts and silver clocks really lift a black interior. I've also fitted 997 GT3 seats. An older pic: Slightly more recent:

oddman said: ekulluke said: Does anyone know of any decent centres near Leeds W Yrks? Looks like Strasse have a C4S in stock. Thanks - I went twice to look at that but both times was on the ramp. They had a standard C2 which I looked in and thought the interior was poor, it actually prompted the thread as I was previously “sold” on a 996

ekulluke said: Thanks - I went twice to look at that but both times was on the ramp. They had a standard C2 which I looked in and thought the interior was poor, it actually prompted the thread as I was previously “sold” on a 996 Very nice. I love the wheel!

jimPH said: I've been working on my interior and removing all the plastic. Porsche did a lot of silver, carbon and leather OEM parts which are not very common, so there are a lot of cheap looking plastic interiors out there. You can even get leather seat belt buckle, indicator stalks and rear view mirror. Even the heater fascia, mirror buttons and cup holder comes in leather. Just bought leather silver side vents, leather speaker covers and leather/carbon defroster vents. The full list is pretty extensive. Mine is a mix of all 3, carbon centre console, red seat belts and silver clocks really lift a black interior. I've also fitted 997 GT3 seats. An older pic: Slightly more recent: let me know if interested in the uber rare 996 leather steering column housing.

996 interior looks more old fashioned, or ‘classic’ which I personally liked over the 997. I bought a 996 c4s from Strasse and would recommend them. During lockdown I used RPM in Knaresborough for servicing. They were great. They also sell Porsches which tend to be low mileage ones.

jimPH said: I've also fitted 997 ... seats. Me too

Mr Fix It said: 996 interior looks more old fashioned, or ‘classic’ which I personally liked over the 997. I bought a 996 c4s from Strasse and would recommend them. During lockdown I used RPM in Knaresborough for servicing. They were great. They also sell Porsches which tend to be low mileage ones. I’ll have a look at RPM. I tend to prefer higher mileage but very well maintained cars as this will be my daily replacing a hybrid X5, so would be a waste to buy a 40k miler. What are your thoughts with the C4S?

Mr Fix It said: 996 interior looks more old fashioned, or ‘classic’ which I personally liked over the 997. I bought a 996 c4s from Strasse and would recommend them. During lockdown I used RPM in Knaresborough for servicing. They were great. They also sell Porsches which tend to be low mileage ones. I bought from RPM in Knaresborough (about 5 years ago), car was on the expensive side but it was properly sorted and I didn't have any other expenditure on it for a good few years. They're a long way from me but if they were close I'd have went back for servicing etc.

ekulluke said: Thanks all. I’m intrigued by the comments especially as I thought the 997 interior would be better! I have owned both and would also chime in on the side of the 996 interior. This is especially true of the full leather on the 996 which, by the feel and smell, uses the same materials as the Carrera GT and is IMHO perfect. Both are great cars but I find exterior look of the 2 or 2S nicer on 997. The wide body 996 C4S is one of the most beautiful of any Porsche road car, full stop. PCM on either is utter dogs t, so switch it out for better tech.

julian987R said: jimPH said: I've been working on my interior and removing all the plastic. Porsche did a lot of silver, carbon and leather OEM parts which are not very common, so there are a lot of cheap looking plastic interiors out there. You can even get leather seat belt buckle, indicator stalks and rear view mirror. Even the heater fascia, mirror buttons and cup holder comes in leather. Just bought leather silver side vents, leather speaker covers and leather/carbon defroster vents. The full list is pretty extensive. Mine is a mix of all 3, carbon centre console, red seat belts and silver clocks really lift a black interior. I've also fitted 997 GT3 seats. An older pic: Slightly more recent: let me know if interested in the uber rare 996 leather steering column housing. I've got one, along with the lower horse shoe in carbon. I've been waiting for the carbon part to arrive so I can fit it. Rarest parts are the cup holder and indicator stalks in leather. Not come across those in the wild. Seen them in a few cars though, usually strange colours. The steering column in leather isn't rare. Took me ages to find the side vents in silver with leather, they don't come up often.

CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. This is exactly what I'm planning for my 996 starting with that steering wheel! What gear knob is that out of interest?

CrunkleFloop said: Stuart70 said: CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. Love that interior. Before I go and fillet the interior of my Boxster does that steering wheel pass an MOT without an airbag? I am hoping that it is a yes . Sailed through an MOT last week with no advisories. :-) I bought the wheel from Bella Volante, it came with all the bits necessary to make the horn work and prevent the airbag light coming on. It does cut off the view of the top of the gauges however that's never bothered me, if it does you can get an offset steering boss. Thank you. That is my New Year’s Day sorted

ekulluke said: Mr Fix It said: 996 interior looks more old fashioned, or ‘classic’ which I personally liked over the 997. I bought a 996 c4s from Strasse and would recommend them. During lockdown I used RPM in Knaresborough for servicing. They were great. They also sell Porsches which tend to be low mileage ones. I’ll have a look at RPM. I tend to prefer higher mileage but very well maintained cars as this will be my daily replacing a hybrid X5, so would be a waste to buy a 40k miler. What are your thoughts with the C4S? I liked it a lot. Was my daily for most of the 3 years I owned it. I tested a c2 and c4 before it. All were good but missed out on them, so bought the c4s before someone else did! It does need revving to make it go and its not a fast car by modern standards, but its got all the power you really need. However, its the driving feel and experience which it has in spades which the modern cars don't have, I did have the gt3 delete kit (or Boxster kit!) put in which made a massive improvement in comfort - left leg no longer felt squashed. It also had a few sliver trim bits in the cabin which I think made it look really good and lifted it. It was also metro blue rather than the black which I also preferred - although if you were going to swap the seats for buckets it would be much easier to find something to match it you go with the black interior.

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I don't know why Porsche had to go all out with one colour. They only really needed to accent a black interior with various colours. I might try and put some red in mine at some point.

What you need is a bit of bronze

Moose. said: CrunkleFloop said: Having spent many trips driving both in a previous life I preferred the 996. The interior feels better for a start (Metal interior door handles on the 996 and silver painted plastic on the 997 for example) The lower console delete on the 996 makes it even better. I just found the 996 felt less refined but strangely more solid than the 997, that appealed to me. Earlier this year I bought my second 996 and don't regret it for a second. Here's my slightly reworked 996 interior - I like a minimalist feel. This is exactly what I'm planning for my 996 starting with that steering wheel! What gear knob is that out of interest? It's just a black snooker ball that I cut a slot into and press fitted over the shaft of the stock gear selector. I used the leather gaiter cut from the oem gear knob and just tucked it down, securing it on the inside with a cable tie. It cost me about £5 to make and is a delight to use. Being Aramith it's also got a nice hardness and weight to it yet doesn't get freezing cold in winter nor baking in summer.

ATM said: What you need is a bit of bronze Looks great! Few quid spent on alcantara there. What are the seats?

jimPH said: ATM said: What you need is a bit of bronze Looks great! Few quid spent on alcantara there. What are the seats? Recaro Pole Position

ekulluke said: ekulluke said: Thanks - I went twice to look at that but both times was on the ramp. They had a standard C2 which I looked in and thought the interior was poor, it actually prompted the thread as I was previously “sold” on a 996 Very nice. I love the wheel! “On the ramp’ is by far the best way to look at an older 996/997…a golden opportunity to check..brake lines , water pipes, drive shaft gaiters, rms leaks ,water pp leaks, exhaust bolt condition ,discs…I could go on…good luck with your choice…fwiw had a 996 & 997 as daily drivers..and apart from its poor headlights the 996 is the one I still miss.

I haven't owned a 996 but driven a few, I did own a 997.1 C2S Manual that had had a rebuild and now have a 997.2 C2S Manual. The engine would be my only concern buying any 996 / 997, everything else is easily replaced relatively and a 997 with a rebuild will just be in your budget. I wouldn't buy a tiptronic, I've only ever driven one and it was crap, if its a regular driver the PDK is good but for me it has to be manual as my car is only used for rare fun drives. If you want to enjoy driving you need to be involved and you aren't when its an auto, that's my take. For 26k I'd buy a really nice 996 C4S manual with a rebuilt engine. A high mileage 997 might be in budget but a peach of a 996 C4S would be preferable to me. The other car you may find is a 996 40 jahre, basically a Gen 2 996 with an engine upgrade to 345 bhp and a lot of kit. I could only see this one for sale and its £30000 !!! Sorry................I remember them being about £25000 and not that long ago. https://www.marshallandsonmotors.co.uk/used-porsch... Edited by mike150 on Saturday 1st January 20:27

IREvans said: Bore scoring is far rarer than the internet would have you believe. Regular oil and filter change (I use a 5W40 oil), and routine oil sampling ensures peace of mind. Bore scoring on certain M97 engine sizes is, if anything, even more widespread than the received internet wisdom. It is epidemic. And regular oil and filter changes will do little, if anything, to help. Anyway, re the question at hand, horses for course. 996 is a bit purer and more transparent to drive. 997 is a bit more competent and complete. Take your pick.

Think of the 997 as a more modern 996. As it evolved it got bigger, quieter, smoother and a bit more civilised. Some people prefer that and some people don't.

mike150 said: I haven't owned a 996 but driven a few, I did own a 997.1 C2S Manual that had had a rebuild and now have a 997.2 C2S Manual. The engine would be my only concern buying any 996 / 997, everything else is easily replaced relatively and a 997 with a rebuild will just be in your budget. I wouldn't buy a tiptronic, I've only ever driven one and it was crap, if its a regular driver the PDK is good but for me it has to be manual as my car is only used for rare fun drives. If you want to enjoy driving you need to be involved and you aren't when its an auto, that's my take. For 26k I'd buy a really nice 996 C4S manual with a rebuilt engine. A high mileage 997 might be in budget but a peach of a 996 C4S would be preferable to me. The other car you may find is a 996 40 jahre, basically a Gen 2 996 with an engine upgrade to 345 bhp and a lot of kit. I could only see this one for sale and its £30000 !!! Sorry................I remember them being about £25000 and not that long ago. https://www.marshallandsonmotors.co.uk/used-porsch... Edited by mike150 on Saturday 1st January 20:27 Thanks Mike. Useful to note that you’d prefer the nicer 996 than a rattier 997. I like the 40th anniversary, but for me if it’s 996 it has to be a C4S. I just don’t like the narrow body!

F6C said: Bore scoring on certain M97 engine sizes is, if anything, even more widespread than the received internet wisdom. It is epidemic. And regular oil and filter changes will do little, if anything, to help. Anyway, re the question at hand, horses for course. 996 is a bit purer and more transparent to drive. 997 is a bit more competent and complete. Take your pick. Do you have any actual experience of this bore scoring ‘edpidemic’ on this engine, or are you just repeating internet hearsay..? I’ve lost count of how many of these engines have passed through my hands over the last 20 years, and none have failed. A bore score inspection is a simple procedure we can do here with a HD camera, and a regular oil sample inspection also reveals any abnormal elevated metal content in the oil.

ATM said: Think of the 997 as a more modern 996. As it evolved it got bigger, quieter, smoother and a bit more civilised. Some people prefer that and some people don't. Bigger? It’s the exact same body with different panels. There’s no difference in interior space, whatsoever.

IREvans said: Do you have any actual experience of this bore scoring ‘edpidemic’ on this engine, or are you just repeating internet hearsay..? I’ve lost count of how many of these engines have passed through my hands over the last 20 years, and none have failed. Better do a recount, then. I have looked at many hundreds of 997.1 ads over the past two years. At a very conservative estimate, at least 10 percent of them explicitly stated the engine was rebuilt. The percentage of those with an unmentioned engine rebuild is anyone's guess, as is the percentage of those that will need one in future. Then there is the IMS issue, on which Porsche North America settled a class action lawsuit out of court in 2013. Not hearsay but fact.

Most 996 cars i have looked at have had the IMS sorted. I wouldn't purchase a car that hasn't had this changed. Remember the dreaded 964 with oil leaks when nobody would touch them with a barge pole..!

Fink-Nottle said: IREvans said: Do you have any actual experience of this bore scoring ‘edpidemic’ on this engine, or are you just repeating internet hearsay..? I’ve lost count of how many of these engines have passed through my hands over the last 20 years, and none have failed. Better do a recount, then. I have looked at many hundreds of 997.1 ads over the past two years. At a very conservative estimate, at least 10 percent of them explicitly stated the engine was rebuilt. The percentage of those with an unmentioned engine rebuild is anyone's guess, as is the percentage of those that will need one in future. Then there is the IMS issue, on which Porsche North America settled a class action lawsuit out of court in 2013. Not hearsay but fact. I think quite a few owners of 996s and early 997.1s get an IMS fix as a precautionary measure. Just sensible.

On a more positive note... Just taken my 997 out for a blast. First time I have driven it since I had it in France in Nov. Just so much fun!

S600BSB said: On a more positive note... Just taken my 997 out for a blast. First time I have driven it since I had it in France in Nov. Just so much fun! Rule #1, any 996 any 997: there is no wrong answer. All great cars IMHO.

Digga said: S600BSB said: On a more positive note... Just taken my 997 out for a blast. First time I have driven it since I had it in France in Nov. Just so much fun! Rule #1, any 996 any 997: there is no wrong answer. All great cars IMHO. Well said. We’re debating the relative merits of Osetra vs Beluga caviar here.

Might be apocryphal, but it is said that the 996 interior was intended for the 993 but funds were lacking to ready it for production, so the 993 got an evolution of the 964. It may just be a story, but (with Boxster/GT3 lower console delete) the 996 interior would make a certain kind of sense in a 993. Anyway, that it is feasible as a proposition goes someway to explaining the slightly old-school feel of the 996 interior (despite the curvy nature of it). Personally I prefer the 996 interior to the 997 (by quite a margin), but this is such a subjective area that you would genuinely need to spend some time in both in order to make up your mind which works best for you. Personally I've always preferred the simpler/simplest shapes for the 911, so it's the narrow body shell for me without any spoilers/skirts/wings etc, although I have spoiled that by choosing a cabriolet. I blame an indefensible but strongly held belief that a sports car should be an open car for that. The 996 is also good fun to modify - I've now buggered about with mine so much that I imagine it's worthless.

IREvans said: Do you have any actual experience of this bore scoring ‘edpidemic’ on this engine, or are you just repeating internet hearsay..? I’ve lost count of how many of these engines have passed through my hands over the last 20 years, and none have failed. A bore score inspection is a simple procedure we can do here with a HD camera, and a regular oil sample inspection also reveals any abnormal elevated metal content in the oil. It's not hearsay. Of course, you have your view and seem to think are entitled to it. You might allow others theirs. The evidence is overwhelming in my opinion, so I provided a counter point. I agree a bore inspection is simple and will give peace of mind for a period. Changing oil, not so much. I have direct experience of low mile cars with lots of oil changes that have suffered scoring.

Fink-Nottle said: The percentage of those with an unmentioned engine rebuild is anyone's guess, as is the percentage of those that will need one in future. I'd say if you took a random sample of cars with large M97 engines (3.4-plus), you'd find at least a third already had some bores replaced or some kind of rebuild. At least . Of the rest, a good proportion will have the beginnings of scoring. I'd personally be surprised if as many as 50 percent of cars have got this far without a rebuild or beginning to score. Lots of cheap and quick steel liner replacements being done in the trade to get cars turned around. There's even one dealer right now selling cars with known scoring and promising within the price to do the work once it gets critical. I've spoken to several traders who routinely have a queue of cars waiting for liners before being sold on. Lots have had repairs under Porsche warranty. Hartech alone has 15-20 engines in for scoring at any one time and has done for years. And so on. Any suggestion that the problem is exaggerated is absolutely miles off the mark, IMO. Lots of cars out there with a few liners fitted and the owners won't be aware the engine has had attention. Which isn't the end of the world, but it does tend to make the problem seem less widespread. On the one hand, yes, people don't tend to jump on forums to report everything is operating correctly (though forum posts and similar are just one of several source on this subject and not a huge factor in my own view on the subject). On the other, the majority of rebuilds aren't reported on the internet at all.

Dammit said: Might be apocryphal, but it is said that the 996 interior was intended for the 993 but funds were lacking to ready it for production, so the 993 got an evolution of the 964. It may just be a story, but (with Boxster/GT3 lower console delete) the 996 interior would make a certain kind of sense in a 993. 996 bits certainly wouldn't fit a 993, so at most, the 996 took some design cues from any stillborn 993 interior update. To me, doesn't add up. 996 has much more screen rake, allowing / necessitating a deeper dash. Upright 993 screen (shell is essentially the same as the original 60s 911) could never accommodate a deeper modern-style dash. Anything designed for the 993 would have to be quite different. There's so much cross-pollination within any car company. 993 came out, in what, 1994? Boxster concept was 1993. I'm sure Porsche considered a more extensive interior package for the 993 and that it shared some cues with the Boxster concept and then the 9x6 cars. Bound to be similarities. But I'd be surprised if there was a complete interior for the 993 that if we saw it now, we'd all go, ahhhh, that's what ended up in the 9x6...

Yeah, it can't have progressed further than the design stage - as you say, parts made for one platform would never bolt onto the other. But you can imagine them using the designs that they couldn't realise in the 993 for the next platform they were working on. If you look at the details in the 996 (hat tip to Slippydiff for this observation) you see the same curving shape repeated throughout - profile of the aero-kit spoiler, interior door handle and so forth. It's very cohesive, which frankly I'm not sure supports or contradicts the "they carried over their designs that never made it into the 993" theory.

S600BSB said: On a more positive note... Just taken my 997 out for a blast. First time I have driven it since I had it in France in Nov. Just so much fun! I had mine out Saturday, 997 the engine is fabulous, glass smoth and so responsive.

Fighting the corner of the 997.1 interior. Definitely doesn’t win points for excitement (especially in all black) but I really like the single continuous piece that stretches across and wraps over the binnacle. A nice piece of design. Largely agree with much of the other sentiments regarding 996 vs 997 and don’t think you can go wrong with either really. Mine is my only car so the extra usability is great and it’s definitely closer to 996 for thrills than the more grown up 991.

I agree with you regarding the interior of the 997 - particularly with extended leather.

Actually, do not think the open deck design causes the scoring. Well, not directly. These engines scores before they go significantly oval. Indirectly, I believe changes to the Lokasil material to make the cylinder walls stiffer and less prone to go oval resulted in a material that is more likely to eject small particles that damage the plastic piston coating used in the M97. Then, due to poor cooling particularly on bank two, you get the oil film failing and contact between the damaged piston skirt and the bore, and the latter scores. At this point, when the bore begins to score, the piston skirt is already quite damaged. Don't think the bores going oval is actually a major factor in scoring.

Aye, or caused by over revs, which would mean no tip car will be bore scored.

No sorry, it’s too much of a coincidence not to be causing the scoring. It’s also not only over revs that cause high temperatures and loading on these cylinders walls. Edited by mjk1 on Thursday 13th January 09:41

I bought a knocking borescored 997.1 as a project 4 years ago. When I stripped it, cylinders 4 and 6 were heavily scored, 5 very slightly scored and 1 to 3 not scored. Pistons 4 and 6 had also been touching the underside of the cylinder head causing the very familiar knocking associated with scored engines. I measured all the cylinder diameters at the top and found 4 and 6 were most oval, 5 less so and 1 to 3 circular. This says to me scoring and cylinder ovality are not independent of each other, it would be too much of a coincidence. The question then arises, which happens first, cylinder ovality or scoring? I can’t see how scoring would send cylinders oval at the top where they are completely unworn. However I can see how ovality would cause scoring as explained in my first post above. Ovality also causes the knocking as it is the piston pivoting on the gudgeon pin in the clearance of the ovality and hitting the underside of the cylinder head. Knocking is a sure sign of borescoring and both are caused by cylinder ovality.

Hartech who rebuild hundreds of these engines every year do not typically talk about ovality being a contributing factor. Which doesn't mean it can't be or that their every word is gospel. But they do have about as informed an opinion on the matter as it's possible to have.

mjk1 said: This photo shows the fundamental design flaw with these engines - open deck cylinders. The cast in cylinder tubes are only supported around the outside in the yellow zone. When the stress and temperature combination is taken above the yield threshold, the top of the cylinder will stretch into the egg shape shown in red. This is why rev ranges are important because the higher the revs the higher the piston inertia forces are on this cylinder side wall. It mainly happens on bank 2 due to the highest stress and temperature occurring in the same zone (thrust side of cylinder). Once the cylinder has stretched, the piston runs up and down a convex shaped cylinder which breaks the oil film down leading to metal to metal contact and scoring (not helped by the lokasil cylinder/plastic coated piston material combination). In extreme cases the cylinder wall cracks leading to “D chunk” failures shown in blue. This explains why some engines score early in their life, while others go for 200 000 miles without scoring. Also why bank 1 is ok when bank 2 scores, although they have both seen the same loading and have the same material combinations. If you buy a car with an unscored engine and don’t overload these cylinder walls it should never score. It does defeat the object of buying a Porsche though so you’re better off buying a car that has already had a quality closed deck aluminium/nikasil cylinder rebuild. Looking at this image then, I’m assuming all capacities have the same stroke but vary in bore? ie a 3.4 will have more material around the circumference, a 3.8 less? Which may have some bearing on the “strength”/resilience of the bore. That said, some 996 3.4s did D-chunk in the early days.

F6C said: Hartech who rebuild hundreds of these engines every year do not typically talk about ovality being a contributing factor. Which doesn't mean it can't be or that their every word is gospel. But they do have about as informed an opinion on the matter as it's possible to have. I’ve had online debates with Baz on this very subject and whilst I have the greatest respect for the work they do (they relined my 6 cylinders), I don’t agree with his root cause of scoring because he doesn’t associate it with ovality. I’ve outlined above in a very logical manner why ovality causes scoring and not the other way round (or completely unrelated).

Would also add that the high rev thing makes no sense at all. Lazily driven Tiptronic cars are absolute buggers for scoring. So, the logic all round is questionable at best.

mjk1 said: I’ve had online debates with Baz on this very subject and whilst I have the greatest respect for the work they do (they relined my 6 cylinders), I don’t agree with his root cause of scoring because he doesn’t associate it with ovality. I’ve outlined above in a very logical manner why ovality causes scoring and not the other way round (or completely unrelated). But you're going on a sample of one engine, is that right? And you're confident this gives you sufficient insight? What if the M97 3.4, which has thicker walls, doesn't go oval when it scores? I don't think the 3.4 M97 is prone to ovality. What about all the earlier M96 3.4 engines that are more prone to going oval but not particularly prone to scoring? Hartech are usually pretty thorough. And while your logic may make sense in the isolated case of one engine, not sure the logic stands up in a broader context... Edited by F6C on Thursday 13th January 11:10

F6C said: But you're going on a sample of one engine, is that right? And you're confident this gives you sufficient insight? What if the M97 3.4, which has thicker walls, doesn't go oval when it scores? I don't think the 3.4 M96 is prone to ovality. What about all the earlier M96 3.4 engines that are more prone to going oval but not particularly prone to scoring? Hartech are usually pretty thorough. And while your logic may make sense in the isolated case of one engine, not sure the logic stands up in a broader context... No, it’s a sample size of 6 plus all the anecdotal evidence that knocking indicates a scored engine (only due to them both being a result of ovality though).

mjk1 said: No, it’s a sample size of 6 plus all the anecdotal evidence that knocking indicates a scored engine (only due to them both being a result of ovality though). You can have knocking without ovality. Indeed, I would say the knocking is due to piston wear not bore ovality. And as above, what about the 3.4 M97 with thicker walls that's less prone to going oval but very score prone? And the earlier M96 3.4 that does go oval but doesn't often score. How does it all fit in with your model of what is happening? And the high rev thing, how does that fit with Tiptronics being score monsters?

This thread was turning into a great discussion on 996 vs 997 but seems to have been sidetracked into discussing the engine design issues. There is already an existing thread on the weaknesses of the 996 and 997 engines (including input from Hartech) here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Scrump said: This thread was turning into a great discussion on 996 vs 997 but seems to have been sidetracked into discussing the engine design issues. There is already an existing thread on the weaknesses of the 996 and 997 engines (including input from Hartech) here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... It's a public forum for enthusiasts, not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them.

F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts, not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. Nicely put F6C also there has already been much discussion about engine reliability on this thread, I just thought it useful to share my insight from first hand experience of rebuilding one of these engines. If a problem is understood, steps can be taken to avoid it during ownership and potential new owners may not be put off what are great cars.

F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts , not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. Ah, it's back, and as obnoxious as ever.

F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts, not a mission critical business meeting . What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. This made me laugh, brilliant I think we need some more blue sky thinking here If I may add - the problem becomes knowing which to skip over and which need thorough reading. Perhaps a prefixing system - must read, dont read, optional read.

Slippydiff said: F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts , not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. Ah, it's back, and as obnoxious as ever. Is it who I think it is?

F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts, not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. Is Scrump a PH moderator?

twizellb said: Is it who I think it is? Moosssseeee!

BrotherMouzone said: twizellb said: Is it who I think it is? Moosssseeee! Hmm, I didn't think he was as bad as F6C.

But going back to the OP - well, if you have a strong like for the looks of a 996 C4S then a 997 in the same budget (i.e. C2) isn't going to cut it. A C2 coupe (not a S) in either flavour would be what I would look for.

braddo said: BrotherMouzone said: twizellb said: Is it who I think it is? Moosssseeee! Hmm, I didn't think he was as bad as F6C. Could well be Moose however I appreciate all types on P'heads even the protagonists and antagonists which inject much needed humour. This place can be very dull indeed without a few of these entertaining individuals.

To the OP I apologise on behalf of the PH members, you posed a sensible question and the thread has been derailed into talk of borescore - surprise! As pointed out, I am sure there are plenty of threads where you can research this very subject should you choose too. In terms of your original question I think it’s a lovely decision to be face with, no doubt that a 996 or a 997 will provide you with a wonderful driving/ownership experience. Yes there are pitfalls (documented across this forum and others) but go in with your eyes open, have a PPi done and buy the best your budget can afford. I am now dailying mine and it makes the perfect companion, just freed up a bit more noise with Helmholtz resonator delete which is just perfect. Good luck and be sure to post up what you decide on, are you leaning one way or the other? Si

SiT said: To the OP I apologise on behalf of the PH members, you posed a sensible question and the thread has been derailed into talk of borescore - surprise! As pointed out, I am sure there are plenty of threads where you can research this very subject should you choose too. In terms of your original question I think it’s a lovely decision to be face with, no doubt that a 996 or a 997 will provide you with a wonderful driving/ownership experience. Yes there are pitfalls (documented across this forum and others) but go in with your eyes open, have a PPi done and buy the best your budget can afford. I am now dailying mine and it makes the perfect companion, just freed up a bit more noise with Helmholtz resonator delete which is just perfect. Good luck and be sure to post up what you decide on, are you leaning one way or the other? Si Dailying what? I was dailying my 1998 996 a couple of years ago. Brilliant car for general day to day use. Small and powerful enough. Now the world has changed I don't drive daily and I have too many cars to choose from. Since then I've added 997 seats which are a big improvement. I also bought a 997 shifter mech but have not got round to fitting it yet. I think these little tweaks help bridge the gap between how the 997 feels and how the 996 feels. Also you'll notice there are no side airbags on these earlier 996 cars - if not optioned - and this makes the door panels look so much cleaner and simpler than a 996 with air bags. It also stops the air bag cover digging into your arm or elbow area. I'm seriously considering fitting these smoother simpler door panels to my other 9x6 cars. The one thing I do really miss about a 997 compared to the 996 is the nicely padded side arm rest and the centre arm rest.

I am dailying my 997 Carrera convertible, for me it’s a bit of a milestone and never thought I would say ‘I am dailying a 911’ so will cherish it and enjoy the memories. Si

This 996 C2 looks well cared for and nicely modified. £22k https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12757591

braddo said: BrotherMouzone said: twizellb said: Is it who I think it is? Moosssseeee! Hmm, I didn't think he was as bad as F6C. That's the badger! Needs to extract his head from his a hole.

I'm not even into 996s, but this one, available locally to me in Francophone Switzerland, made me brush up my car French today. I believe the body color is called Palladio (L 555). Calling it champagne or beige doesn't do it justice. Calling the interior beige does. But, man, it's nigh on concours condition, excluding the silly cup holder, which is a miracle given the mileage of 112k. Available since October 2021 for 19k. FSH. No further details, as per usual. So in my email I'm asking about the dreaded rayure de cylindres and the roulement arbre intermédiaire, the last refurb of the freinage, and is it still on its original embrayage? Even with deepL it takes me forever to compose. https://www.autoscout24.ch/9011288

braddo said: This 996 C2 looks well cared for and nicely modified. £22k https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12757591 That does look good! Time to try and up my budget methinks...

SiT said: I am dailying my 997 Carrera convertible, for me it’s a bit of a milestone and never thought I would say ‘I am dailying a 911’ so will cherish it and enjoy the memories. Si Snap It made me feel so good. Occasionally I'd get a random stranger just start talking to me when getting in or out. Most popular was outside Asda. Some would tell you they used to have one or always wanted one. I think I upset a few people when they saw how dirty and beat up mine was. The vandals did make a mess of it. But I still enjoy the car. Maybe its because I spent so much time with it. I think they also drive better when you use them regularly. But thats probably placebo. I really do hope the Certificate of Conformity from Porsche confirm the car is EUR 4 compliant or that might be the end of it for me. Even if it doesn't I can hang on to it for a while but this clean air zone in Manchester will surely spread to personal cars and then we're done for.

Fink-Nottle said: Those look like 997 wheels to me. Worth noting that 997 18 wheels are -7mm offset on the front from standard 996 18 wheels which I think affects the steering. I had these on mine originally and didnt know about the offset problem. I sold them to my mate with a 996.2 and he found his car a bit unstable until he fitted some spacers. You can see they look a bit too inboard on the front. Edited by ATM on Friday 14th January 08:10

crxdave said: braddo said: This 996 C2 looks well cared for and nicely modified. £22k https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12757591 That does look good! Time to try and up my budget methinks... Looks very good indeed.

ATM said: Those look like 997 wheels to me. Worth noting that 997 18 wheels are -7mm offset on the front from standard 996 18 wheels which I think affects the steering. I had these on mine originally and didnt know about the offset problem. I sold them to my mate with a 996.2 and he found his car a bit unstable until he fitted some spacers. You can see they look a bit too inboard on the front. Edited by ATM on Friday 14th January 08:10 Thanks very much indeed. I will keep that in mind.

Taffy66 said: braddo said: BrotherMouzone said: twizellb said: Is it who I think it is? Moosssseeee! Hmm, I didn't think he was as bad as F6C. Could well be Moose however ..... He's been as subtle as this.

ATM said: Fink-Nottle said: Those look like 997 wheels to me. Worth noting that 997 18 wheels are -7mm offset on the front from standard 996 18 wheels which I think affects the steering. I had these on mine originally and didnt know about the offset problem. I sold them to my mate with a 996.2 and he found his car a bit unstable until he fitted some spacers. You can see they look a bit too inboard on the front. Edited by ATM on Friday 14th January 08:10 My old 996 was that colour and logbook called it “mirage” ,I think it was mirage in the Porsche spec docs too. Mines had black interior with dark green tints to windows… mirage was a short lived colour , replaced by paladon silver ( more a silver with a hint of gold) still think it was the classiest looking car I’ve ever had .

twizellb said: Slippydiff said: F6C said: It's a public forum for enthusiasts , not a mission critical business meeting. What's being discussed isn't entirely tangential. There are going to be some posts you aren't interested in. Skip over them. Ah, it's back, and as obnoxious as ever. Is it who I think it is? Well, there's only one individual who posts on the PH Porsche forum in such a smug, arrogant, sanctimonious, superior, self righteous and generally unpleasant manner, and who's posting style was contrary solely for sake of it ... So yes I'm guessing it's exactly who you think it is I did have a far more unpleasant and withering post prepared yesterday, but I abandoned posting it, figuring that sinking to the same level as the individual concerned would have been counterproductive and most likely only have encouraged said individual to continue posting in his own inimitable, unpleasant and antagonistic manner. The PH Porsche forum seems to be akin to a candle to a moth for these divisive individuals, because we saw similar behaviour (posting under a new username) from Mr Demon after he'd been banned. Let us not forget that this individual (let's call him Redacted 2019) flounced off PH because he was given a taste of his medicine by another forum contributor, and then responded using terminology that he himself would have referred to as "potty mouthed". As I understood it the mods took exception to this and banned him temporarily. Instead of taking it on the chin like the rest of us have done in the past, he elected to do a world class flounce worthy of Elton John ... and thinking his past contributions were of such value to the PH community, demanded they be deleted en masse. Talk about hubris ...

What about this one? £33,995 https://www.jrmotorcompany.co.uk/showroom/porsche-...

ATM said: What about this one? £33,995 https://www.jrmotorcompany.co.uk/showroom/porsche-... Good lord no, I’d take the lovely Center Gravity fettled Silver Mk 1 that Braddo linked to and pocket the additional £12K every time over that

Or this : https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12735095 Not normally a massive fan of Savannah, but with some well chosen mods ie a black or Metropole blue OE steering wheel and gearknob/gaiter and a set of Pole Positions or GT3 buckets trimmed in Savannah with contrasting blue stitching, it would make for rather nice place to be

I'm going to make something of a red interior, one day. I'm sure it can be done. But I need to get the car back on the road first, its only been 7 years

F6C said: But you're going on a sample of one engine, is that right? And you're confident this gives you sufficient insight? What if the M97 3.4, which has thicker walls, doesn't go oval when it scores? I don't think the 3.4 M97 is prone to ovality. What about all the earlier M96 3.4 engines that are more prone to going oval but not particularly prone to scoring? Hartech are usually pretty thorough. And while your logic may make sense in the isolated case of one engine, not sure the logic stands up in a broader context... Edited by F6C on Thursday 13th January 11:10 The M97 3.4 engine doesn’t have thicker cylinder walls than the 3.6 and 3.8 which makes all 3 prone to cylinder distortion. Here is a table of cylinder wall thicknesses for all non GT/turbo M96/M97 engines showing my logic does stand up in a boarder context.

stretcher said: PS: if anyone has a nice looked after manual non sunroof C2 996 for sale, please message me. Not sure if you've found one yet but I am selling exactly that! Tried messaging but your profile doesn't accept them?

SPX I’m also currently looking for a sorted 996, if you drop me a line with details it would be appreciated. Many thanks.

SPX1. You can contact me via email. [email removed] Thanks Dave

stretcher said: SPX1. You can contact me via email. [email removed] Thanks Dave Thanks Dave, email sent.

smg916 said: SPX I’m also currently looking for a sorted 996, if you drop me a line with details it would be appreciated. Many thanks. Message sent, thanks.

.... Edited by SPX1 on Friday 18th February 16:02