Documents when you sell a car - GDPR? - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Just take a black Sharpie to the names / address fields and hand everything over.

Just sold my 981 Spyder through Motorway (great result, IMO almost retail but that's a different story!) and its being collected next week. Anyway - I have a full history file for the car including original purchase receipt when new, copies of all OPC service invoices, V5 documents showing previously used private registration numbers etc etc. Now - to me all of these documents are important and belong in the cars history file for provenance. But these documents show the original owners details along with my home address etc so what's the official situation / rules regarding GDPR on releasing these documents to the buyer? Previously when I've sold cars privately, to an OPC or to an independent specialist I've released the whole history file without any concern and that's mainly been a trust thing. In this instance the winning bidder on Motorway was another used car sourcing company specialising in supplying dealers with sports / prestige cars so it will be going from me to them and then to another dealer to sell. Do I release all invoices etc with addresses or just the bare minimum?? Edited by chrisABP on Friday 9th July 10:23

This is a tricky one, as there's no single answer, and selling to a dealer just throws someone elses opinion into the mix. Good (in my opinion) dealers, will give up all of the paperwork, including service invoices, warranty paperwork, launch event invites etc. Bad ones will throw the whole lot in the bin in either a misguided fear of GDPR, or a sneaky way of getting rid of those two invoices that talked about a mysterious loss of coolant

I cant say its ever crossed my mind, generally everything car related gets bung into a folder that is periodically sorted out and is the story behind the car. The more facts and figures within the pack the better the story. I like seeing receipts and have never crossed out names or addresses but this has got me wondering.

SKM1984 said: I cant say its ever crossed my mind, generally everything car related gets bung into a folder that is periodically sorted out and is the story behind the car. The more facts and figures within the pack the better the story. I like seeing receipts and have never crossed out names or addresses but this has got me wondering. I'm exactly the same and want to hand everything over as its the cars history BUT the new rules etc do concern me, and the fact it will be going through at least two others dealers hands...??!!

I think you will find that the dealer is not permitted to pass on any paperwork with your details on as they will potentially be in breach of the regulaions.

I would imagine that passing on all receipts etc with the proviso that all personal details(Names,addresses, phone no, email etc) of previous owners has been erased will suffice.

WG said: I think you will find that the dealer is not permitted to pass on any paperwork with your details on as they will potentially be in breach of the regulaions. I think you'll find no such thing. GDPR is much mis-understood and much mis-interpreted. If records are paper-based and not "part of a filing system" - pragmatically, they cannot be searched - then GDPR doesn't apply. So if the dealer indexed the service record and could search on customer name - that might be subject to GDPR. A bundle of paper that is kept and passed on with the car, is not.

WG said: I think you will find that the dealer is not permitted to pass on any paperwork with your details on as they will potentially be in breach of the regulaions. From my experience of buying and selling cars in the last couple of years was that any receipts etc that are left in the car (rightly or wrongly) get destroyed by the dealers.

A question everyone seems to have missed - although it takes it slightly off topic - is what are you going to replace the Spyder with?

Shiverman said: A question everyone seems to have missed - although it takes it slightly off topic - is what are you going to replace the Spyder with? LOL! Temporarily nothing - but as my wife reminded me apparently I always say that..... Have an itch for a Caterham (short term - Mrs would hate it!) and a deposit placed for the new Lotus (if I can fit in it that is...) but I'm going to watch the market and see if the current spike in values settles at all. Loved the Spyder for 2.5 years but values being so strong it was time for a change.

deckster said: WG said: I think you will find that the dealer is not permitted to pass on any paperwork with your details on as they will potentially be in breach of the regulaions. I think you'll find no such thing. GDPR is much mis-understood and much mis-interpreted. If records are paper-based and not "part of a filing system" - pragmatically, they cannot be searched - then GDPR doesn't apply. So if the dealer indexed the service record and could search on customer name - that might be subject to GDPR. A bundle of paper that is kept and passed on with the car, is not. Yes. I doubt if "data protection" was ever intended to apply to paper records of potential historical interest - otherwise most of the contents of the British Library would have to be destroyed.

chrisABP said: LOL! Temporarily nothing - but as my wife reminded me apparently I always say that..... Have an itch for a Caterham (short term - Mrs would hate it!) and a deposit placed for the new Lotus (if I can fit in it that is...) but I'm going to watch the market and see if the current spike in values settles at all. Loved the Spyder for 2.5 years but values being so strong it was time for a change. Can’t blame you, just done the same thing with my GTS, albeit a dealer has bettered the offer from WBAC / Motorway etc….the offer was too good to refuse. Also going to get an Emira next year fingers crossed, although am jumping into a Spyder for 12 months as a stopgap.

deckster said: I think you'll find no such thing. GDPR is much mis-understood and much mis-interpreted. If records are paper-based and not "part of a filing system" - pragmatically, they cannot be searched - then GDPR doesn't apply. So if the dealer indexed the service record and could search on customer name - that might be subject to GDPR. A bundle of paper that is kept and passed on with the car, is not. Can you tell EVERYONE this please. Got an OK price for an E61 from a dealer and he binned all my filed invoices in front of me. I'm like 'but the new owner would love to know I removed the swirl flaps and changed all the belts'. Not remotely interested cos of GDPR or maybe cos of COVID innit

Keep everything. Put a note in the service book with an email address or something saying that if you are the lucky new owner please get in touch and I will send you the history file ?

Not quite the same thing but I sold a car to wbac and they actively refused my lovely pile of paperwork etc citing GDPR. I suspect they just couldn't be arsed. Anyway I did track the new owner via PH and sent the stuff over. Never got a response mind which was a shame.

A dealership these days has to remove the name and contact details from any invoices etc.. Most dealers have a stamp that will go over the GDPR details that makes them unreadable. If I was selling privately it would not worry me.

DKL said: Not quite the same thing but I sold a car to wbac and they actively refused my lovely pile of paperwork etc citing GDPR. I suspect they just couldn't be arsed. Anyway I did track the new owner via PH and sent the stuff over. Never got a response mind which was a shame. Some folks eh

Why does it concern? The previous owners details are on the V5 - I wouldn't ever think to sharpie or cross out any details! (other than perhaps something like a credit card number etc)

V5 is exempt as that is covered by some sort of ‘legal requirement’ exemption I’ve done a quick Google this morning. GDPR applies to businesses that control or process personal data, and the fines can be quite large (2-4% of global turnover depending on breach severity), so I’m not surprised businesses have no interest in getting caught by the rules. Personal data is essentially any information that can be used to identify a person - so a name, address, telephone number, email address could all fit this criteria. I’m therefore not at all surprised to hear that dealers are binning car history files instead of just redacting the personal data from it. Why would they bother talking a sharpie to personal data on car history paperwork and risk missing something and then someone complaining to the Information Commissioners Office (the regulator). From the ICO website: “A personal data breach is a breach of security leading to the accidental or unlawful destruction, loss, alteration, unauthorised disclosure of, or access to, personal data.” It’s not worth the hassle for them, nor the potential bad publicity and fines. Would I do the same if I were a car dealer? Unfortunately I probably would (…. All based on my limited understanding of GDPR). I found a recent article about a car dealer who was fined for accidentally leaving service records in a glovebox and the new owner contacted the previous owner https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/car-dealer... It’s a very interesting area to say the least…

rrroro said: V5 is exempt as that is covered by some sort of ‘legal requirement’ exemption I’ve done a quick Google this morning. <snip> </snip>… Now re-read Deckster's comment above, a little bit of knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous (inaccurate) thing

rrroro said: I found a recent article about a car dealer who was fined for accidentally leaving service records in a glovebox and the new owner contacted the previous owner https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/car-dealer... It’s a very interesting area to say the least… The dealer wasn’t fined; what the article said was:- “All it was, was a letter, but the old owner kicked up a fuss and got a no-win, no-fee solicitor involved who wrote to us threatening court action for a breach of GDPR. ‘My lawyers advised us to settle out of court, which I have done, but all because we left service history in the car. “

CarCrazyDad said: Why does it concern? The previous owners details are on the V5 - I wouldn't ever think to sharpie or cross out any details! (other than perhaps something like a credit card number etc) Previous keeper details haven’t been on the V5 for a few years now. They now only state the number of previous keepers but not the name or address of the last one.

Well that’ll teach me for googling GDPR at 730 on a Sunday morning

How does this work with classic cars sold at auction. The history is the value. Does the next McLaren F1 or Ferrari 250 GTO simply have it binned. What about a RR silver ghost … 100 odd years of service documentation additional works etc all in the shredder

rrroro said: Well that’ll teach me for googling GDPR at 730 on a Sunday morning Heh. To be fair GDPR is a bit of a minefield and I can quite understand that your average car dealership just doesn't want the hassle. There is no reason to expect them to be experts and there is a huge incentive to play it safe rather than argue the minutiae of data protection law. I definitely wouldn't class myself as an expert but I do have to deal with bits of it quite frequently in my job. It is both terrifying and depressing just how frequently so-called data security specialists in large companies hide behind GDPR as an excuse for not doing their jobs properly.

Resurrecting this thread. Deckster said above: "GDPR is much mis-understood and much mis-interpreted. If records are paper-based and not "part of a filing system" - pragmatically, they cannot be searched - then GDPR doesn't apply. So if the dealer indexed the service record and could search on customer name - that might be subject to GDPR. A bundle of paper that is kept and passed on with the car, is not." Spot-on, in my view. GDPR is about the processing of information, so the paper-based files and records that many of us build up and keep with our cars are not subject to this. It's an area that is hugely misunderstood. For any 'interesting' car the provenance and backstory are very important. Anyway, I'm writing on this topic mainly to recount my experience from the last two weeks. For various reasons I sold my immaculate 991.1 GT3 through WBAC (an absolutely first class, transparent and well conducted process that realised a great price for me without any hassle on my part) but they wouldn't take my files that documented the provenance of the car. So I placed my phone number and a short message in the documents/handbook folder and also in the back of the service record booklet. That was last week. The car then went through BCA auction (as I understand most WBAC stock does) and was quickly sold. And last night - so only ten days from handing the car over to BAC - the new owner calls me, genuinely excited to have found my note and telephone number. The files will be on their way to him shortly - he is delighted and, strangely, so am I! James

Great result!

When I sold to wbac they also didn't want the paperwork due to gdpr, so I think that's now just the way it is. However what is at odds is that the Porsche handbooks (at least of the older models, mine is a 2005) encourage all owners to add in their name and address into the book. I wonder how that will affect gdpr rules, given that previous owners do so willingly?

short-shift said: Resurrecting this thread. Anyway, I'm writing on this topic mainly to recount my experience from the last two weeks. For various reasons I sold my immaculate 991.1 GT3 through WBAC (an absolutely first class, transparent and well conducted process that realised a great price for me without any hassle on my part) but they wouldn't take my files that documented the provenance of the car. So I placed my phone number and a short message in the documents/handbook folder and also in the back of the service record booklet. That was last week. The car then went through BCA auction (as I understand most WBAC stock does) and was quickly sold. And last night - so only ten days from handing the car over to BAC - the new owner calls me, genuinely excited to have found my note and telephone number. The files will be on their way to him shortly - he is delighted and, strangely, so am I! James My feelings would be exactly the same, I’ve got a fully documented folder showing every single penny spent on my van (I know it’s only a van), but I’ve spent an absolute fortune on modifying it and I’d want the next owner to inherit the history and to appreciate everything that’s been done to it in my ownership. I think if I ever sold it to a dealer I’d do exactly the same and leave a note in the glovebox for the next owner to contact me. Did the new owner say what he paid for it out of interest?

CheesecakeRunner said: If all parties give consent for the data to be shared then it can be. But it must be informed consent for a specific reason. If it falls under the scope of GDPR. Is a stack of previous invoices a physical filing system? In which case all of us with previous vehicle histories are data controllers…

Here's a legal viewpoint on the subject of service history and GDPR that I found https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/gd...

So how does this work with the big classic car auctions? Part of the cars value is their history.