Considering buying a boggo 981, anything I'd miss? - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Hey guys, I saw a 981 2.7 Cayman manual for sale which is within my budget, from what I can tell, it has no extras, so no: PSE, PASM, Bose, Extended Leather, Xenons etc etc. It has upgraded 20" wheels, heated seats and sports steering wheel. I'd absolutely love a fully specced one, but it would be stretching myself a bit financially which may not be the best idea given current times. I like listening to podcasts and music so would likely upgrade the speakers anyway. Let me know if you think there are any 'musts'.

A 981 base spec really came with absolutely nothing, I think you even had to add Bluetooth to connect your phone as an option it was that basic. They bundled a few more options as standard with the 718s including the SPP (sound package plus), PCM, nav and a digital radio etc. but the unupgraded stereo on the 981 will definitely need upgrading. Parking sensors too are handy and the 20” ride without PASM will be firm. I also found the base 2.7 a bit underpowered and needing to be revved out to actually get anywhere. What’s your budget? If you can up it into the 718s you’ll get vastly more options included as standard, a much more up to date car along with more power, or at the other end the 987s may also be worth considering as more value for £.

Schmed said: A 981 base spec really came with absolutely nothing, I think you even had to add Bluetooth to connect your phone as an option it was that basic. They bundled a few more options as standard with the 718s including the SPP (sound package plus), PCM, nav and a digital radio etc. but the unupgraded stereo on the 981 will definitely need upgrading. Parking sensors too are handy and the 20” ride without PASM will be firm. I also found the base 2.7 a bit underpowered and needing to be revved out to actually get anywhere. What’s your budget? If you can up it into the 718s you’ll get vastly more options included as standard, a much more up to date car along with more power, or at the other end the 987s may also be worth considering as more value for £. Budget is comfortable at £28k. I'd be stretching at £35k. I'd love a 718 and as a daily it sounds like the better option. Unlike most, I don't mind the sound of the 718 and the fact it's a 4cyl. There just isn't many 718s around at the moment, especially under £35k. They all seem to be missing the sports exhaust at that price which I admit on the 718 will probably be essential, especially for resale.

The spec/options can make a big difference to the everyday use and enjoyment of the car, so it’s important to consider what you might be missing out on. And, at your budget level - close to £30k - you should be able to find a very nice, lowish mls, quite high spec 981. The basic things most people would expect are: - nice colour combo - lowish average miles - Full OPC history (and extended warranty is a bonus) - Heated seats - Cruise - PDC (F&R) - PCM - Climate - PDK/Man is personal but PDK should have paddles - Bose - Decent seats and headlamps always popular - 19 or 20 wheels - Leather, PSE, PASM, SC all nice, but not essential imo Of course, it’s what you want that matters, but a poverty spec has to be reflected in a low and attractive price

If you are interested in a Boxster I’m selling mine shortly to make way for an incoming GTS 4.0 Good spec, low mileage and Porsche warranty until December 2021

Koln-RS said: The spec/options can make a big difference to the everyday use and enjoyment of the car, so it’s important to consider what you might be missing out on. And, at your budget level - close to £30k - you should be able to find a very nice, lowish mls, quite high spec 981. Thanks, this car has heated seats, parking sensors, bluetooth and sports steering wheel. This is the car: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102038... The pics are pretty damn lazy. But considering the current market, I thought it could potentially be a comfortable way in to my first Porsche if the price was right, then get a 718 once the used market has cooled off.

I feel I am perfectly placed to answer this. I bought a base 2.7 981 Boxster four years ago with the 20” wheels, heated seats, dimming mirrors and very little else. My thoughts. Engine is a peach, I set out to buy an S, however preferred the 2.7, it’s sweeter sounding and a better power level for the road. After a couple of months I paid Porsche Tonbridge to install PSE, cost £1800 and was the best thing I did to the car. Overall it’s perfect, and the problem I have now is I have the budget to spend up to £80k on a new car, but each Porsche I look at just doesn’t offer the value proposition of the base 981, it’s been ruthlessly reliable. The bad points: - standard headlights are absolutely rubbish, upgraded the bulbs and much better but compared to our Lexus RX they’re a joke but better than my old Elise S3 - standard stereo is really poor, but doesn’t cause much bother as the engine with PSE balances that out. (You can easily retrofit Bluetooth music streaming with a Bluetooth to 3.5mm adapter for about £15 all in. - lack of extended leather makes some parts the interior feel a little bit poor. If you want Apple Car Play then there are a number of companies that will solder in the updated PCM into the existing head unit for about £800/900. Overall, it’s a car that I can’t see myself getting rid of. It’s a so honest and brings a smile to me all the time. From Sunday blasts hearing the engine sing to long trips across the continent. Edited by Over over under steer on Sunday 7th February 09:58

Over over under steer said: I feel I am perfectly placed to answer this. I bought a base 2.7 981 Boxster four years ago with the 20” wheels, heated seats, dimming mirrors and very little else. My thoughts. Engine is a peach, I set out to buy an S, however preferred the 2.7, it’s sweeter sounding and a better power level for the road. After a couple of months I paid Porsche Tonbridge to install PSE, cost £1800 and was the best thing I did to the car. Overall it’s perfect, and the problem I have now is I have the budget to spend up to £80k on a new car, but each Porsche I look at just doesn’t offer the value proposition of the base 981, it’s been ruthlessly reliable. The bad points: - standard headlights are absolutely rubbish, upgraded the bulbs and much better but compared to our Lexus RX they’re a joke but better than my old Elise S3 - standard stereo is really poor, but doesn’t cause much bother as the engine with PSE balances that out. (You can easily retrofit Bluetooth music streaming with a Bluetooth to 3.5mm adapter for about £15 all in. - lack of extended leather makes some parts the interior feel a little bit poor. If you want Apple Car Play then there are a number of companies that will solder in the updated PCM into the existing head unit for about £800/900. Overall, it’s a car that I can’t see myself getting rid of. It’s a so honest and brings a smile to me all the time. From Sunday blasts hearing the engine sing to long trips across the continent. Edited by Over over under steer on Sunday 7th February 09:58 Fully agree with the PSE comment. He great thing is they can be retrofitted by an OPC so if your chosen car doesn’t have it, budget to get it fitted. I did the same and it transformed my car

718 would make a good daily but none about for your budget as you say. 981 is in a funny pricing zone ATM. For your budget you'd, literally have your pick of the best 987 2 S but maybe not as good a daily driver (depends what you want out of a daily). It would be near the bottom of the depreciation curve though. Are you after PDK as it improved with every generation Market could change this year of course as government life support is pulled. Edited by Andyoz on Sunday 7th February 10:06

This one looks good, mileage is a bit high, but has all the best options. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202012127... Only people who like 4 cylinder turbo 718s are people trying to sell them and people who’ve watched too much fast and the furious. 6 cylinders and lots of revs it’s all you need. Edited by Goldjono on Sunday 7th February 10:10

Koln-RS said: The spec/options can make a big difference to the everyday use and enjoyment of the car, so it’s important to consider what you might be missing out on. And, at your budget level - close to £30k - you should be able to find a very nice, lowish mls, quite high spec 981. The basic things most people would expect are: - nice colour combo - lowish average miles - Full OPC history (and extended warranty is a bonus) - Heated seats - Cruise - PDC (F&R) - PCM - Climate - PDK/Man is personal but PDK should have paddles - Bose - Decent seats and headlamps always popular - 19 or 20 wheels - Leather, PSE, PASM, SC all nice, but not essential imo Of course, it’s what you want that matters, but a poverty spec has to be reflected in a low and attractive price Those things, I agree are popular, so if you want to keep the price down don't get fussed about them unless they matter to you. In particular: Nothing wrong with Indy servicing - but it does affect resale and extended warranty Heater seats are nice with leather seats (but leather seats were an option) - but hardly essential with a Cayman as opposed to a Boxster Cruise is popular - but it is not adaptive and there is no limit option. I never used it PDC definitely good to have on the rear at least PCM personally I would want it and it has a big effect on resale. But if you are happy with google maps or waze... Don't forget that bluetooth integration with your phone was an option (unbelievable but true!) Climate - I'd say yes, the controls for the heating system are difficult to access behind the gearlever so better not to need them so very often PDK will definitely command a premium, but brings more sensible gearing - the 2.7 in particular struggles with the manual gearing Bose is crap (but popular) - but SPP is said to be even worse. If you are happy to do aftermarket I'd think about doing it. Standard headlights are very poor, so if you do much driving at night better headlights would be high on my list As has been said 20" wheels spoil the ride - but nevertheless are still popular. You'll lose nothing dynamically by sticking to 18 or 19. PASM is great and would be high on my list - essential with 20" wheels for me. Many like PSE but it does drone at speed (even off). Again it's popular so the lack of it will depress the price.

I had an early 2.7 PDK 981 Boxster that I bought new to my own factory order spec in May 2012. The engine was lovely at higher revs. I had a fairly modest spec- metallic, part leather, sports steering wheel , heated seats and 20” alloys but that was it.

It’s a Porsche sports car. Spec? Manual box, controlled suspension, great brakes, great steering, fun engine. Aircon and a radio if you want to use it as on a daily basis. Don’t worry so much.

bcr5784 said: PDK will definitely command a premium, but brings more sensible gearing - the 2.7 in particular struggles with the manual gearing Bose is crap (but popular) - but SPP is said to be even worse. If you are happy to do aftermarket I'd think about doing it. It's interesting you said that about PDK, everyone else says it's too underpowered for PDK and you'll get sick of it dropped down a gear every time you even slightly squeeze the throttle. Also with the manual you get more driver engagement. Obviously due to covid I can't find out for myself by driving one. As soon as I found out the Bose was a bit crap I'm happy to miss it off and go aftermarket.

AlexNJ89 said: It's interesting you said that about PDK, everyone else says it's too underpowered for PDK and you'll get sick of it dropped down a gear every time you even slightly squeeze the throttle. Also with the manual you get more driver engagement. The driver engagement issue is a decision for you. However I'd turn the underpowered argument on it's head and say the 2.7 hasn't enough torque to pull an 80+ mph second gear or an 113mph third. (70 and 100 for PDK) Even with a manual you will be changing down on the motorway to overtake. Not sure the frequent downchanges should irritate with PDK - in Normal mode it's super smooth and all you'll notice is a change in revs and engine note. However if the changes irritate just drive it in manual - it won't change down then unless the engine labours. I'd certainly try PDK if you get the chance - I thought I wanted a manual before I tried PDK (never owned an auto before my Cayman). As has been said do get make sure you get paddles (Sports steering wheel) - just another thing that was an option rather than standard. Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 7th February 11:46

bcr5784 said: The driver engagement issue is a decision for you. However I'd turn the underpowered argument on it's head and say the 2.7 hasn't enough torque to pull an 80+ mph second gear or an 113mph third. (70 and 100 for PDK) Even with a manual you will be changing down on the motorway to overtake. Not sure the frequent downchanges should irritate with PDK - in Normal mode it's super smooth and all you'll notice is a change in revs and engine note. However if the changes irritate just drive it in manual - it won't change down then unless the engine labours. I'd certainly try PDK if you get the chance - I thought I wanted a manual before I tried PDK (never owned an auto before my Cayman). As has been said do get make sure you get paddles (Sports steering wheel) - just another thing that was an option rather than standard. Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 7th February 11:46 Thanks for the insight, I'll certainly try drive a PDK

I have 981C, man, 18s, 2nd owner from 12k miles. The only options I wanted were F/R parking sensors (takes the stress out of manoeuvring) and cruise-control (helps with motorway roadworks limits). It's immense fun to drive, and very capable. I don't miss any of the must-have options in lists above. Its all about driving for me. Other car is S2 Elise... another driver's machine. Porsche do a great job extracting another 20 or 30% from their customers for things you don't really need 😀

bcr5784 said: The driver engagement issue is a decision for you. However I'd turn the underpowered argument on it's head and say the 2.7 hasn't enough torque to pull an 80+ mph second gear or an 113mph third. (70 and 100 for PDK) Even with a manual you will be changing down on the motorway to overtake. Not sure the frequent downchanges should irritate with PDK - in Normal mode it's super smooth and all you'll notice is a change in revs and engine note. However if the changes irritate just drive it in manual - it won't change down then unless the engine labours. I'd certainly try PDK if you get the chance - I thought I wanted a manual before I tried PDK (never owned an auto before my Cayman). As has been said do get make sure you get paddles (Sports steering wheel) - just another thing that was an option rather than standard. Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 7th February 11:46 The 2.7 is a sweet engine and I'm a NASP fan, but I'd agree with most of the above the long gearing makes the manual feel very flat and I also found the clutch pedal to be set too high. I ended up buying a very high spec PDK 2.7 Boxster which was much better at keeping the engine on the boil on a country road in "manual" with Sports Design steering wheel and paddles a must. However I found the car/gearbox pretty terrible on the motorway in 7th at 70-75mph there was absolutely no acceleration, and the PDK seemed to hunt between 6th and 7th, so much so that I used to put the car in "manual" and leave it in 6th. This was pretty alien to me coming from AMG products (NASP and turbo) with bags of torque and well sorted slush boxes. The car was also mega noisy on the motorway with tyre roar from the 20" tyres, and the drone from the PSE (on or off) especially in 7th (another reason to use 6th). I wouldn't bother with BOSE you can't hear it! If you can live with that horrible engine note from the flat four, I would say a base 2.0 718 is probably a better all rounder for a daily (manual or PDK).....but you will miss that 6 cylinder wail on a quick run in the country. Still wouldn't spec BOSE though.

Holgate86 said: The 2.7 is a sweet engine and I'm a NASP fan, but I'd agree with most of the above the long gearing makes the manual feel very flat and I also found the clutch pedal to be set too high. I ended up buying a very high spec PDK 2.7 Boxster which was much better at keeping the engine on the boil on a country road in "manual" with Sports Design steering wheel and paddles a must. However I found the car/gearbox pretty terrible on the motorway in 7th at 70-75mph there was absolutely no acceleration, and the PDK seemed to hunt between 6th and 7th, so much so that I used to put the car in "manual" and leave it in 6th. This was pretty alien to me coming from AMG products (NASP and turbo) with bags of torque and well sorted slush boxes. The car was also mega noisy on the motorway with tyre roar from the 20" tyres, and the drone from the PSE (on or off) especially in 7th (another reason to use 6th). I wouldn't bother with BOSE you can't hear it! If you can live with that horrible engine note from the flat four, I would say a base 2.0 718 is probably a better all rounder for a daily (manual or PDK).....but you will miss that 6 cylinder wail on a quick run in the country. Still wouldn't spec BOSE though. Thanks, appreciate the input. I think you've convinced me in one post. I've just sold my car, cash is in the bank, but I'm in no rush and happy to buy a shed for 6 months while I save up for a 718.

Over over under steer said: I feel I am perfectly placed to answer this. I bought a base 2.7 981 Boxster four years ago with the 20” wheels, heated seats, dimming mirrors and very little else. My thoughts. Engine is a peach, I set out to buy an S, however preferred the 2.7, it’s sweeter sounding and a better power level for the road. After a couple of months I paid Porsche Tonbridge to install PSE, cost £1800 and was the best thing I did to the car. Overall it’s perfect, and the problem I have now is I have the budget to spend up to £80k on a new car, but each Porsche I look at just doesn’t offer the value proposition of the base 981, it’s been ruthlessly reliable. The bad points: - standard headlights are absolutely rubbish, upgraded the bulbs and much better but compared to our Lexus RX they’re a joke but better than my old Elise S3 - standard stereo is really poor, but doesn’t cause much bother as the engine with PSE balances that out. (You can easily retrofit Bluetooth music streaming with a Bluetooth to 3.5mm adapter for about £15 all in. - lack of extended leather makes some parts the interior feel a little bit poor. If you want Apple Car Play then there are a number of companies that will solder in the updated PCM into the existing head unit for about £800/900. Overall, it’s a car that I can’t see myself getting rid of. It’s a so honest and brings a smile to me all the time. From Sunday blasts hearing the engine sing to long trips across the continent. Edited by Over over under steer on Sunday 7th February 09:58 Now you’ve put the PSE on the 2.7 does it pop and burble like the 3.4S does?

AlexNJ89 said: Thanks, appreciate the input. I think you've convinced me in one post. I've just sold my car, cash is in the bank, but I'm in no rush and happy to buy a shed for 6 months while I save up for a 718. If its a toss up between a 981 or 718 you might find this interesting: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

MitchW12 said: Now you’ve put the PSE on the 2.7 does it pop and burble like the 3.4S does? The PSE is identical for the 2.7 and the 3.4 (same part number)

MitchW12 said: Now you’ve put the PSE on the 2.7 does it pop and burble like the 3.4S does? Yup an absolute tonne. FWIW it’s louder and ‘cracklier’ than my friends 981 GT4 with PSE. My experience with these DFI engines is the smaller the displacement the higher frequency the sound. Which is why I went for the 2.7 over the 3.4. If sport is off then all 95% of crackling stops which is great for driving through towns

Also OP, I just had a 718 2.0 for a week whilst mine was in for its service, and it feels like such a different car. It’s accomplished, smoother and comfy. If you need to commute go for 718 but it left me completely flat (no pun intended) and found the engine extremely effective but emotionless and rather agricultural. Interior tech is a step on, as is the general feeling of it. From the second I started the 981 upon picking it up it wiped out any consideration of moving to a 718 for anything short of a 4.0. My fiancé summed it up well, both are great cars, but the 718 2.0 is the one she would drive and the 981 is the one I’d drive as more of a spirited driver.

Over over under steer said: Also OP, I just had a 718 2.0 for a week whilst mine was in for its service Your service took a week?

Schmed said: Your service took a week? No idea how long it took them, but I was only able to drop off/pick up Monday and Saturday so had the loaner for 6 days. I imagine a major service probably takes them half a day.

28k seems about the entry point to 981S models. Higher mileage with lower spec, but they’re fantastic things, regardless. Low 30’s gets you into higher spec models. Not sure how closely the 2.7 correlates, but I’d expect 28k to be getting you a fairly specced version. I put sport chrono, PSE and PASM (on 20s) as essential, although it depends on how you plan to use it. Look up my thread about 981 prices from August. I ended up with a very well optioned S. Later on I updated the thread (October time?) about my experience of the options. Feel free to PM me with any questions. The long and short of it, though, is that they’re brilliant things and you can’t go wrong.

Over over under steer said: Yup an absolute tonne. FWIW it’s louder and ‘cracklier’ than my friends 981 GT4 with PSE. My experience with these DFI engines is the smaller the displacement the higher frequency the sound. Which is why I went for the 2.7 over the 3.4. If sport is off then all 95% of crackling stops which is great for driving through towns Thanks for coming back on this and that’s great to know. Especially turning sport mode off in town. Unfortunately you’ve know opened up the scope of options even further!

Regarding 20" alloys on non-adaptive (ie. standard) suspension, the ride is perfect. Very controlled and not crashy. Makes my Twingo RS seem like a satanic Pogo Stick (but still love it!)

nickv8 said: Regarding 20" alloys on non-adaptive (ie. standard) suspension, the ride is perfect. Very controlled and not crashy. Makes my Twingo RS seem like a satanic Pogo Stick (but still love it!)

Had a T with PASM last service, my normal car is on passive, with 18"s. I found the Sport PASM setting to be quite similar to mine, i.e. quite firm. The comfort PASM setting seemed much softer, and actually worked rather well for terrible roads. That said I've also had a loaner on 20"s without PASM and that was fine. Some good advice in this thread also: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Edited by jimbo761 on Monday 8th February 17:52

I think to an extent we’re all living somewhat vicariously at the moment..

Jeez, some love the manual some swear by PDK. Some say options are necessary some say they aren't. I'm also torn on whether the 981 is underpowered vs the 981S. Some say PASM is a must, others think the standard ride is just fine. Problem is I can't go out test driving at the moment. As much as I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, I'm not sure I'm any wiser Edited by AlexNJ89 on Monday 8th February 23:19

AlexNJ89 said: Jeez, some love the manual some swear by PDK. Some say options are necessary some say they aren't. I'm also torn on whether the 981 is underpowered vs the 981S. Some say PASM is a must, others think the standard ride is just fine. Problem is I can't go out test driving at the moment. As much as I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, I'm not sure I'm any wiser Edited by AlexNJ89 on Monday 8th February 23:19 I would’ve put a fiver on that being the case! You’ll certainly be delighted either way. All I would say is that 28k+ puts you in the realm of a reasonably well-specced base 981.. Apologies if you’ve already mentioned it, but how are you planning on using it? If it’s a weekend toy, I’d wager the SC/PSE options are more worthwhile, as they do add a lot of theatre to the car, in a way you’d probably happily do without on a dayily driver.

Royal Jelly said: I would’ve put a fiver on that being the case! You’ll certainly be delighted either way. All I would say is that 28k+ puts you in the realm of a reasonably well-specced base 981.. Apologies if you’ve already mentioned it, but how are you planning on using it? If it’s a weekend toy, I’d wager the SC/PSE options are more worthwhile, as they do add a lot of theatre to the car, in a way you’d probably happily do without on a dayily driver. It will be a daily driver. Due to covid and working from home, I just want a car where nipping to Sainsbury's (about 20mins away) it's a lot more fun. I had a Mazda RX8 231bhp when I was 23 (8 years ago) and I wanted an excuse to drive everywhere. I've just got out of an SLK55, and even though it was a great car and fast, I just didn't feel very connected to it. So I have £20k cash, plan on doing a little finance to get me in to a Cayman. My job seems stable and has been throughout covid, I could finance £5k or £15k. Hence why the lower the better. I also believe that the further you stretch yourself the harder it is to upgrade your car as your personal wealth can't keep up with the depreciation, where as a £25k 981 base will financially be upgradable in 12 months and could go for a well specced 718S instead of having sort-of well specced 718 base now. I hope this helps shed light on where I'm at.

Interesting that you've come out of an SLK55, from experience I would say a 2.7 981 Cayman probably isn't for you. I came out of an SLK55 and replaced it with an Elise S3, I then replaced the Elise with a 2016 981 PDK Boxster Black Edition which was a good car and great for 10% of the time when on it, but tbh I never got on particularly well with the whole Porsche thing. The final straw for me was an upcoming £3k+ bill for the 4 year service and warranty renewal....I also lost £13k on the car in just over 2 years. To cut a long story short, I'm back in an SLK55 and love it, and have a GR Yaris coming for manual and B road thrills.

Holgate86 said: Interesting that you've come out of an SLK55, from experience I would say a 2.7 981 Cayman probably isn't for you. I came out of an SLK55 and replaced it with an Elise S3, I then replaced the Elise with a 2016 981 PDK Boxster Black Edition which was a good car and great for 10% of the time when on it, but tbh I never got on particularly well with the whole Porsche thing. The final straw for me was an upcoming £3k+ bill for the 4 year service and warranty renewal....I also lost £13k on the car in just over 2 years. To cut a long story short, I'm back in an SLK55 and love it, and have a GR Yaris coming for manual and B road thrills. Hmm, I did think this was a great looking car at the same price as a 981: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202101308... But I've just come out of an r171, just feels like I'd be getting the same car with comfier seats. I felt the SLK55 was more of a muscle car, I'm looking for a car where I can approach a roundabout and pretend I'm Michael Schumacher, the SLK55 wasn't as agile as it looked and the gearbox was so slow to drop down that the moment had gone by the time it had woken up.

Agree totally that test drives really necessary, which kind of scuppers you at the moment. My manual 981 Cayman is pretty boggo (only options are colour, wheels, leatherette seat inserts) and frankly there’s not a lot I’d change if I was to spec it myself. Sound system is s te, but I’ve never been in a Porsche with Bose (Bose in my old TT I thought was good though). But to be honest, it’s kind of good enough so long as you just want to listen to podcasts and aren’t a mega audiophile or anything.

AlexNJ89 said: Jeez, some love the manual some swear by PDK. Some say options are necessary some say they aren't. I'm also torn on whether the 981 is underpowered vs the 981S. Some say PASM is a must, others think the standard ride is just fine. Problem is I can't go out test driving at the moment. As much as I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, I'm not sure I'm any wiser Edited by AlexNJ89 on Monday 8th February 23:19 Threads like this always go the same way. A load of opinions from others based on what sort of driver they are and what stuff they like on their cars. Here are a couple of my opinions: 2.7 v 3.4 - the 2.7 is definitely not under powered and has more that enough performance for UK road driving. Context - I've had more powerful cars and for me they are wasted on the road. Plus I'm happy to cruise along at 3/10 a lot of the time PSE - a droning PITA on the motorway even when switched off. Probably a minority opinion I'd guess you'll already know where you are on such things, or at least have an opinion. Which may or may not concur with mine... Good luck with your short list. They are great cars.

Not sure if this is allowed but selling my 2017/67 718 base for £35k. Manual, PSE, PASM, Sports Chrono, 20’s etc. Porsche warranty till Nov this year. Drop me a message if interested

martindg123 said: Not sure if this is allowed but selling my 2017/67 718 base for £35k. Manual, PSE, PASM, Sports Chrono, 20’s etc. Porsche warranty till Nov this year. Drop me a message if interested Hi Martin, do you have links to the car? I can't send you a DM on PH it seems I've opened my DMs

AlexNJ89 said: Hi Martin, do you have links to the car? I can't send you a DM on PH it seems I've opened my DMs Email sent

OP... now you mentioned the SLK55 and like to discover more spanners in the works... What you need to go for is a Vantage. It’s mechanically very solid and well proven. Unfortunately you’re just skimming under a 2009MY+ 4.7 with it’s increased grunt, but they are simply a joy to own. Shapes like this are timeless. Great handling, the 4.3 thrives in revs. And the sound... oh the sound! No Porker can approach it for sound, drama and feel-good. Plus you won’t wait as long at a junction! I’m trying a Boxster 981 now. But every time I start it, my soul drops with the noise. Thankfully it’s beautiful too, drives real nice, has a well-oiled sewing machine quality, etc. But if both cars are maintained at independents, I’d wager their running cost is scarily close. Plus, which do you think will depreciate more? Ok - back under the rock for me. Good luck!

nickv8 said: OP... now you mentioned the SLK55 and like to discover more spanners in the works... What you need to go for is a Vantage. It’s mechanically very solid and well proven. Unfortunately you’re just skimming under a 2009MY+ 4.7 with it’s increased grunt, but they are simply a joy to own. Shapes like this are timeless. Great handling, the 4.3 thrives in revs. And the sound... oh the sound! No Porker can approach it for sound, drama and feel-good. Plus you won’t wait as long at a junction! I’m trying a Boxster 981 now. But every time I start it, my soul drops with the noise. Thankfully it’s beautiful too, drives real nice, has a well-oiled sewing machine quality, etc. But if both cars are maintained at independents, I’d wager their running cost is scarily close. Plus, which do you think will depreciate more? Ok - back under the rock for me. Good luck! You know what, I actually scanned these on autotrader, I'd go for a manual from around 2010 onwards. So are the running costs a myth? I heard they are about £4k for a new clutch? I'm also considering a Jag F-type

AlexNJ89 said: You know what, I actually scanned these on autotrader, I'd go for a manual from around 2010 onwards. So are the running costs a myth? I heard they are about £4k for a new clutch? I'm also considering a Jag F-type A myth on the internet??? Depends what clutch you want to fit and by who. There’s the V12VS double plate clutch which apparently improves speed. But never bothered me. I think it’s around £2k at independents. But usual story of some lasting 60k miles and others 20k miles. Something to do with the object between seat and pedals. Not sure how much a Boxster clutch is? We already see multiples of the Vantage prices if the PDK goes wrong. Apples and pears, but the point is nether can be run on a true shoestring budget unless you’re extremely handy with spanners. Insurance for the Vantage isn’t bad either. Just making your decision tougher. No, thank you!

I've been keeping my eye on the market recently with a view to possibly going for a 718 as a daily driver option. They have been selling quite slowly from OPC's over December and January, possibly picked up a little over the past week or two. A few have come on around the £35/36k mark with reasonable low end "essential" spec, i.e. 2017 cars with nice colour, heated seats, nav, leather, upgraded wheels. Often they sit there dropping slowly, one at Bristol went down to £33k and sold and another at Newcastle did the same this week - both went quickly at this price and keep in mind they are sticker prices so probably able to get at least £1k off them in my previous experience. I'd say they are just about in your budget if you play the market. I've decided not to go for one and just ordered clutch, flywheel, sports exhaust for my 987.1 and will add a car play head unit and some interior updates to keep me interested in it for another year or two. Like you say the next year may see some bumps in the road financially and 718 prices are only going to go one way.

AlexNJ89 said: Holgate86 said: Interesting that you've come out of an SLK55, from experience I would say a 2.7 981 Cayman probably isn't for you. I came out of an SLK55 and replaced it with an Elise S3, I then replaced the Elise with a 2016 981 PDK Boxster Black Edition which was a good car and great for 10% of the time when on it, but tbh I never got on particularly well with the whole Porsche thing. The final straw for me was an upcoming £3k+ bill for the 4 year service and warranty renewal....I also lost £13k on the car in just over 2 years. To cut a long story short, I'm back in an SLK55 and love it, and have a GR Yaris coming for manual and B road thrills. Hmm, I did think this was a great looking car at the same price as a 981: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202101308... But I've just come out of an r171, just feels like I'd be getting the same car with comfier seats. I felt the SLK55 was more of a muscle car, I'm looking for a car where I can approach a roundabout and pretend I'm Michael Schumacher, the SLK55 wasn't as agile as it looked and the gearbox was so slow to drop down that the moment had gone by the time it had woken up. You're certainly right about the nature of the SLK55, I've had two R172 cars and they are more of a muscle car and even the newer car still has a dimwitted gearbox compared to a Cayster PDK..the Boxster was a far more nimble car, but the electric steering on the 981 Cayster isn't the best and you'll certainly miss the brakes from the SLK as the boggo Cayster has puny brakes. The car in the Hofmanns ad is a real top spec car, but I don't think it has the performance pack with the LSD. It sounds like you're on a journey to find another car like I was after selling my first R172 SLK55 which is currently on sale here...... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202003218... However what I would say is take your time and try and drive all the cars on your list and in budget, just don't get whisked along by all the Porsche hype like I was with the Boxster, they're great cars but despite what the journalists say there are other cars out there that give them a good run for their money in many different ways. For me that was to get back in a R172 SLK55, which is the first time in 45 years I've ever owned the same car.

nickv8 said: A myth on the internet??? Depends what clutch you want to fit and by who. There’s the V12VS double plate clutch which apparently improves speed. But never bothered me. I think it’s around £2k at independents. But usual story of some lasting 60k miles and others 20k miles. Something to do with the object between seat and pedals. Not sure how much a Boxster clutch is? We already see multiples of the Vantage prices if the PDK goes wrong. Apples and pears, but the point is nether can be run on a true shoestring budget unless you’re extremely handy with spanners. Insurance for the Vantage isn’t bad either. Just making your decision tougher. No, thank you! This Vantage is nice: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202101268... Surely I'm going to end up getting 19mpg and astronomical maintenance costs?

Couple of nice Cayman S's went up today. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102098... I would only want a manual if it had auto rev matching. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102098... I feel £36.5k for a Cayman with 55,000 miles is way too expensive, may as well get a 718

AlexNJ89 said: Couple of nice Cayman S's went up today. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102098... I would only want a manual if it had auto rev matching. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202102098... I feel £36.5k for a Cayman with 55,000 miles is way too expensive, may as well get a 718 Damn that's overpriced, especially as Porsches can be very mileage sensitive. No doubt some [deluded] current owners will be along soon to tell you it is good value however...

Lexington59 said: Damn that's overpriced, especially as Porsches can be very mileage sensitive. No doubt some [deluded] current owners will be along soon to tell you it is good value however... The entire market is starved of supply and it's pushing up the prices I feel.

AlexNJ89 said: This Vantage is nice: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202101268... Surely I'm going to end up getting 19mpg and astronomical maintenance costs? Who's counting MPG? I once saw 50+ mpg in my 4.7. Mind, I was going down a steep hill. (It was about 9mpg going up the other side, but I never let SWMBO know that bit ). Otherwise, 23mpg is realistic on most journeys. Maintenance costs are reasonable (seriously). They are mechanically simple cars, relatively. As with Porsche, some excellent independents out there. But I also found the Bristol main dealer very good. £600 for a full service. Older 4.3 examples at indies would be a fair bit. Many AM MD's allow users to supply their own engine oil (dry-sumped, and a fair amount needed) which helps costs. I wonder if OPC's would do the same? What makes me wonder is how the old image of reliability seems to be the opposite with me. Not much hassle with 2 Vantages over 3+ years (broken bonnet latch being the worst). But I've already had to manually spin the cabin air fan in the Boxster twice to get it started. I know, I know... not exactly onerous, but tickles me, somehow OK. I'll shut up. Wrong forum and I'm not helping myself detox from AM...

Kawasicki said: It’s a Porsche sports car. Spec? Manual box, controlled suspension, great brakes, great steering, fun engine. Aircon and a radio if you want to use it as on a daily basis. Don’t worry so much. Totally agree.

rockin said: Kawasicki said: It’s a Porsche sports car. Spec? Manual box, controlled suspension, great brakes, great steering, fun engine. Aircon and a radio if you want to use it as on a daily basis. Don’t worry so much. Totally agree. What? That's crazy talk. Hours of deliberating over red stitching and such other essential options on these forums is all surely a critical part of the overall buying experience...

nickv8 said: Who's counting MPG? I once saw 50+ mpg in my 4.7. Mind, I was going down a steep hill. (It was about 9mpg going up the other side, but I never let SWMBO know that bit ). Otherwise, 23mpg is realistic on most journeys. Maintenance costs are reasonable (seriously). They are mechanically simple cars, relatively. As with Porsche, some excellent independents out there. But I also found the Bristol main dealer very good. £600 for a full service. Older 4.3 examples at indies would be a fair bit. Many AM MD's allow users to supply their own engine oil (dry-sumped, and a fair amount needed) which helps costs. I wonder if OPC's would do the same? What makes me wonder is how the old image of reliability seems to be the opposite with me. Not much hassle with 2 Vantages over 3+ years (broken bonnet latch being the worst). But I've already had to manually spin the cabin air fan in the Boxster twice to get it started. I know, I know... not exactly onerous, but tickles me, somehow OK. I'll shut up. Wrong forum and I'm not helping myself detox from AM... Did some research on the V8V. I noticed a lot of owners saying it's cheaper to run than a 911 etc and it's more reliable than people think. I wouldn't spend over £28k on one and get the 4.3L. Interior isn't as nice but probably better value for money.

Schmed said: What? That's crazy talk. Hours of deliberating over red stitching and such other essential options on these forums is all surely a critical part of the overall buying experience... My most sincere apologies! I clearly made a beginner's mistake and have overlooked the secret art of the options list....

AlexNJ89 said: The entire market is starved of supply and it's pushing up the prices I feel. Without meaning to state the obvious, that is generally how these things work.. I do agree that 36.5 for a PDK 55 thousand-miler is a bit eager, considering the unlisted spec. The RPM car seems fairly priced for a fairly basic spec car. Like you said, however, sport chrono (which includes rev-matching) is essential. Not only for the matching, but for the throttle response, the dynamic transmission mounts, and the exhaust crackles. It’s a far more visceral experience in sport+ mode. As for numbers, I began looking for 981 S caymans on autotrader last spring, and generally there’s been high-teens to early twenties on the go. Of which a couple would be manual. The prices have been robust since then, and generally firmed a bit for good spec cars. In the world of 981S cars, mid 30s ought to get you a well-specced manual with sensible miles privately. Add 5-6k for an OPC price, and meet in the middle for an independent. As you go lower, then mileage or spec will be less desirable. Despite what Lexington (who you will be able to see, has an almost concerning obsession with talking down 981s) says, 981S prices are far more spec sensitive than they are price sensitive. They aren’t GT3s or GT4s. What you will find, is that the ones that sell for higher money have SC, PASM, PSE, which suggests they provide better residuals and desirability. The rest is all bonus spec. As for getting a 718 - it’d be a splendid daily with the engine being the only drawback that everyone goes on about. It’s been the general consensus, though, that 981s will have better residuals than 718s in the base and S model world. That’s been slowly manifesting for a while, and more obvious now than ever. If that isn’t unduly concerning, then I’d say a base 718 would make a great choice.

Usual forum myths. 718 residuals have always been talked down along with the engine, and according to PH any of these unloved four pots would soon be worthless, which just hasn’t happened. Where you can lose money is on options from new, since you rarely see many of these reflected the trade prices. The engine too is actually pretty good. I came from a 981 and prefer it, it feels much quicker due to the extra torque. Ultimately they are all low volume cars and will retain value well (as they have Porsche badges on the front...)

Schmed said: Usual forum myths. 718 residuals have always been talked down along with the engine, and according to PH any of these unloved four pots would soon be worthless, which just hasn’t happened. Where you can lose money is on options from new, since you rarely see many of these reflected the trade prices. The engine too is actually pretty good. I came from a 981 and prefer it, it feels much quicker due to the extra torque. Ultimately they are all low volume cars and will retain value well (as they have Porsche badges on the front...) There’s nothing mythical about the fact that there is now pricing crossover between the 981S and 718S. This has been a gradual convergence, but is happening. I agree that they make excellent cars, and will depreciate more kindly than most other marques. I’d love one as a daily (but not as a weekender). The fact remains that 981s have held their value and well specced ones have appreciated and 718s 2.0/2.5s have universally depreciated over the last 12 months.

Royal Jelly said: I agree that they make excellent cars, and will depreciate more kindly than most other marques. I’d love one as a daily (but not as a weekender). The fact remains that 981s have held their value and well specced ones have appreciated and 718s 2.0/2.5s have universally depreciated over the last 12 months. I imagine that would be more to do with age, newer cars seem to depreciate faster. Oddly enough I own a 2016 718 and have found the valuations actually increased over the last twelve months. Never had this with any other car I've owned and I suspect is more to do with limited supply to the market during a very unusual 2020 than anything else.

Royal Jelly said: Schmed said: Usual forum myths. 718 residuals have always been talked down along with the engine, and according to PH any of these unloved four pots would soon be worthless, which just hasn’t happened. Where you can lose money is on options from new, since you rarely see many of these reflected the trade prices. The engine too is actually pretty good. I came from a 981 and prefer it, it feels much quicker due to the extra torque. Ultimately they are all low volume cars and will retain value well (as they have Porsche badges on the front...) There’s nothing mythical about the fact that there is now pricing crossover between the 981S and 718S. This has been a gradual convergence, but is happening. I agree that they make excellent cars, and will depreciate more kindly than most other marques. I’d love one as a daily (but not as a weekender). The fact remains that 981s have held their value and well specced ones have appreciated and 718s 2.0/2.5s have universally depreciated over the last 12 months. In my experience our 2015 2.7 981 Cayman's value appears to have stabilised over the last 18 months and our 2019 2.0 718 Boxster has lost about £7k in the same period. We bought the 981 new and the depreciation in the first year was pretty steep as you would expect and I'm not seeing any real difference to the depreciation we've seen on the 718. I suspect the difference over the last 18 months is the fact that each car is at a different point in their relative depreciation curves. So I'd say that there is no real evidence that 718 depreciation is better/worse that the equivalent 981 unless someone can show me any real evidence to the contrary. As for the convergence of prices with later 981s and early 718s as proof, have a look at late 987s and early 981s and you'll see a similar picture.

Voodoo Blue said: In my experience our 2015 2.7 981 Cayman's value appears to have stabilised over the last 18 months and our 2019 2.0 718 Boxster has lost about £7k in the same period. We bought the 981 new and the depreciation in the first year was pretty steep as you would expect and I'm not seeing any real difference to the depreciation we've seen on the 718. I suspect the difference over the last 18 months is the fact that each car is at a different point in their relative depreciation curves. So I'd say that there is no real evidence that 718 depreciation is better/worse that the equivalent 981 unless someone can show me any real evidence to the contrary. As for the convergence of prices with later 981s and early 718s as proof, have a look at late 987s and early 981s and you'll see a similar picture. I agree to an extent, but I think the fact that costs are overlapping suggests the depreciation curves aren’t quite the same. Late well-specced 987s don’t command what we’ll-specced 981s do - at least not yet. As Cossers said - they’re cars made for driving, which every Cayman does magnificently. I didn’t mean to derail this into a(nother) residuals thread. Hopefully residuals aren’t anyone’s main driver for picking one - it certainly wasn’t with mine. You can’t go wrong. I wouldn’t be deterred by mileage, but I’d spec what I’ve mentioned previously in this thread.

Royal Jelly said: I think the fact that costs are overlapping suggests the depreciation curves aren’t quite the same. That happens every time there's a model change. The price range between "base" cars and a "loaded" cars so so big that a used car from the old range may cost more than a brand new car from the new range. Even within one model range it's common to be able to buy a new base car cheaper than a used, loaded car. The only certainty is that options depreciate more quickly than the car to which they're attached.

Something to note is that all cars have held or increased in value over the last 12 months. I still have the details of a Jag F-Type I looked at for £33k 12 months ago, that same spec and mileage is £36k now.

AlexNJ89 said: Something to note is that all cars have held or increased in value over the last 12 months. I still have the details of a Jag F-Type I looked at for £33k 12 months ago, that same spec and mileage is £36k now. I agree, the current market seems a bit more flexible than in the past when things were normal. Last April our 718 was worth £12K less than now from WBAC almost certainly based on the effects of the first lockdown. When we start emerging from the current lockdown who knows what the effect on prices/values will be especially when you take into account the potential shortage of new cars because of chip shortages etc. It's certainly possible that prices will increase if there is a shortage of particular models or drop like a stone if the general economy slumps. My conclusion to that would be that if you've got the money to buy what you want and you're reasonably safe from an income perspective then buy what you want based on what you want and ignore any opinions on prices/values between model generations simply because no one really knows what the future holds so you might as well enjoy yourself while you can.

Voodoo Blue said: I agree, the current market seems a bit more flexible than in the past when things were normal. Last April our 718 was worth £12K less than now from WBAC almost certainly based on the effects of the first lockdown. When we start emerging from the current lockdown who knows what the effect on prices/values will be especially when you take into account the potential shortage of new cars because of chip shortages etc. It's certainly possible that prices will increase if there is a shortage of particular models or drop like a stone if the general economy slumps. My conclusion to that would be that if you've got the money to buy what you want and you're reasonably safe from an income perspective then buy what you want based on what you want and ignore any opinions on prices/values between model generations simply because no one really knows what the future holds so you might as well enjoy yourself while you can. Yep, that's why I'm thinking about going boggo spec and keeping it safe for now until things are more stable then stretch my budget. My prediction is that when we come out of this stricter lockdown there will be a surge in people buying cars, prices will increase slightly again due to this, but the extra supply of trade ins will stop if from sky rocketing. Then, either Rishi Sunak will axe the furlough schemes or people return to work, more people will have lost their jobs than they think. Companies can't just continue on and say to their clients "cool so err... continue where we left off yeah?". So those who have lost their jobs will need to sell their cars which will flood the market and we'll see a bit of an economic correction overall.

AlexNJ89 said: Voodoo Blue said: I agree, the current market seems a bit more flexible than in the past when things were normal. Last April our 718 was worth £12K less than now from WBAC almost certainly based on the effects of the first lockdown. When we start emerging from the current lockdown who knows what the effect on prices/values will be especially when you take into account the potential shortage of new cars because of chip shortages etc. It's certainly possible that prices will increase if there is a shortage of particular models or drop like a stone if the general economy slumps. My conclusion to that would be that if you've got the money to buy what you want and you're reasonably safe from an income perspective then buy what you want based on what you want and ignore any opinions on prices/values between model generations simply because no one really knows what the future holds so you might as well enjoy yourself while you can. Yep, that's why I'm thinking about going boggo spec and keeping it safe for now until things are more stable then stretch my budget. My prediction is that when we come out of this stricter lockdown there will be a surge in people buying cars, prices will increase slightly again due to this, but the extra supply of trade ins will stop if from sky rocketing. Then, either Rishi Sunak will axe the furlough schemes or people return to work, more people will have lost their jobs than they think. Companies can't just continue on and say to their clients "cool so err... continue where we left off yeah?". So those who have lost their jobs will need to sell their cars which will flood the market and we'll see a bit of an economic correction overall. Sounds like a good strategy. Whatever you get I'm sure you'll enjoy it and make you come back and tell us all about it.

rockin said: That happens every time there's a model change. The price range between "base" cars and a "loaded" cars so so big that a used car from the old range may cost more than a brand new car from the new range. Even within one model range it's common to be able to buy a new base car cheaper than a used, loaded car. The only certainty is that options depreciate more quickly than the car to which they're attached. I dunno, I don’t recall 987s ever being worth more than equivalent 981s. Also, the gulf in used car prices between low and high spec cars suggest that while options may depreciate initially, it seems to me that certain options retain a higher percentage of their list price than the car itself. From what I can see, SC/PSE/PASM 981 cars seem to go for 3-4k more than those without. I forget exactly much their combined list price for those is, but if a base 981S originally listed at 48k-ish goes for 30k now (which seems about right), and a car with those options goes for 34-35k (again, seems about right), it would suggest that those options have depreciated less than the rest of the car. Again, all moot to a degree. I’d urge the OP to buy what they can find/afford and enjoy what is an exceptional car. But, as he’s clearly concerned about being able to move on to something else in a while and therefore suffer less depreciation, I’d suggest that a buying a car with more desirable options will depreciate less than others. At least, that seems to have held true for 981s for a while. Who knows what the future holds, but given the sheer amount of money that’s been inserted into the economy and inflation on the horizon, I wouldn’t sweat it, in pound terms.

My wife has a 2.7 Boxster, at the time I had an M4 but fell in love with hers despite the lower power; handling is amazing, and so confidence inspiring. M4 sold a few months after & I am in a 981 CGTS, love the PSE and extra bits, but get a bigger thrill wringing the neck out of hers on the road, as can do more revs in more gears vs mine, which gets silly quick much sooner. Both cars as PDK, thought we'd be manual for both, but the drive was better. Regardless of what you choose with a 981, you are unlikely to be disappointed. My struggle is what I would replace it with. Good luck

Mj2k said: Regardless of what you choose with a 981, you are unlikely to be disappointed. My struggle is what I would replace it with. That's it in a nutshell. Utterly brilliant cars. Although, of course, we only buy them for the cup-holders and soft touch plastics.... Shatteringly competent sports cars.

Holgate86 said: However I found the car/gearbox pretty terrible on the motorway in 7th at 70-75mph there was absolutely no acceleration, and the PDK seemed to hunt between 6th and 7th, so much so that I used to put the car in "manual" and leave it in 6th. This was pretty alien to me coming from AMG products (NASP and turbo) with bags of torque and well sorted slush boxes. Must have a fault. My 2014 981C 2.7 PDK has done around 30k motorway miles and never once wanted to hunt between 7th and 6th. Plenty of acceleration too. Have you had it looked into?

They do all seem to suffer from road noise on the motorway - which is probably the only thing that would see me changing TBH. That concrete bit on the M25 is quite literally deafening...

The 981 will ALWAYS be a better and more valued car than the 2.0 or 2.5 718. Always. Forever. It has a real Porsche engine with 50% more cylinders for god sakes. The 719 2.0/2.5 will fade into history as an aberration if not a downright abomination. Isn’t that correct Schmed......?

gts.981 said: The 981 will ALWAYS be a better and more valued car than the 2.0 or 2.5 718. Always. Forever. It has a real Porsche engine with 50% more cylinders for god sakes. The 719 2.0/2.5 will fade into history as an aberration if not a downright abomination. Isn’t that correct Schmed......? Ha ha, so far I've kept my 718 twice the length of time I owned my 981 and far prefer it. You can cry in your underpowered six cylinder heap when they finally go all electric.

Schmed said: gts.981 said: The 981 will ALWAYS be a better and more valued car than the 2.0 or 2.5 718. Always. Forever. It has a real Porsche engine with 50% more cylinders for god sakes. The 719 2.0/2.5 will fade into history as an aberration if not a downright abomination. Isn’t that correct Schmed......? Ha ha, so far I've kept my 718 twice the length of time I owned my 981 and far prefer it. You can cry in your underpowered six cylinder heap when they finally go all electric. Ahh, another day another 981 vs 718 horse flogging session. We've argued about residuals recently too, so I reckon after this we go back to steering wheel column stitching leaving a reflection on the dash, or a good old fashioned PDK vs Manual argument where someone inevitably takes it too seriously and goes off in a huff? The cycle must continue

Schmed said: gts.981 said: The 981 will ALWAYS be a better and more valued car than the 2.0 or 2.5 718. Always. Forever. It has a real Porsche engine with 50% more cylinders for god sakes. The 719 2.0/2.5 will fade into history as an aberration if not a downright abomination. Isn’t that correct Schmed......? Ha ha, so far I've kept my 718 twice the length of time I owned my 981 and far prefer it. What’s that got to do with anything? You can cry in your underpowered six cylinder heap when they finally go all electric. But not ‘under-cylindered’ though eh....?