Water pump disintegrated - pics

I'm worried small pieces might be inside the motor cooling passages, but what can I do about it? Removing the motor is not realistic, maybe I can flush the cooling system? Any suggestions? rotor.jpg pump.jpg

If it was me I'd drain the system, disconnect all the coolant pipes from the engine and run a power washer through all the coolant passages both ways. Also remove the thermostat housing as pieces may of wedged themselves in there and that could cause over heating.

Nothing in the thermostat housing...

I would start with flushing the system backwards to try to reverse the flow and get any pieces to return to the water pump area. This could be difficult as ther are several ways for the coolant to flow so if one is blocked by pieces the coolant my find the other passages and bypass any blockages. How much of the impeller was in the water pump housing vs. how much might have flowed I to the engine. You might want to remove the oil pump housing as the coolant flows through it from the water pump housing. See it remnants are trapped in there. I will have to look around but somewhere I have a diagram that shows the coolant flows. When I find it I will post it here. I guess this a good example of why many are now saying that the water pumps should be a maintenance item. Hope this works out for you.

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Thanks! That would be very helpful.

Short of hitting that plastic part with a hammer, how the F*** did that happen?

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I heard a rattling sound for about 3 days when I stopped at a light or idled. I couldn't figure out what it was but apparently it was the bearing in the water pump. I was on my way to work when it gave up. Luckily I was at a light and quickly pulled in a parking lot where my coolant drained out. Took 2 hours for the wrecker to arrive. Hauled it to the dealer who wanted $1400 to fix it, so I hauled it home and it's in the garage in pieces while I figure out how to install the stupid thermostat. Tomorrow I'll go to HD and pick up some tubing to make the special tool required...

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1400 bucks! Do ya get foreplay at least first? Suncost sells the pump for 268 and book time is 4 hours but it won't take that long. Mines getting replaced Monday.

It might be worth the $1400 if the dealer is going to thoroughly flush the system to get rid of any broken impeller pieces. I've been thinking about proactively changing mine. From what I've read, draining/flushing/filling the coolant is the trickiest part. Not sure if I'm up to that challenge.

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That would probably be $2800 at the dealer.

Ouch!

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Make sure you have a 1/4" drive ratchet with a 10mm deep socket and if replacing the thermostat you'll need the special tool from LNE ($15), Porsche ($100), or diy one from tubing. You'll also need a 5mm hex to remove the coolant drain.

Had mine done the other day. I heard the noise you mention and thought it might be the IMS bearing. I did not drive the car again, but trailer'd it to my indy asap. He replaced the pump, which was shot but it had not lost its seal and the impeller was in tact. He showed me another pump recently removed from a car where about a third of the impeller was broken off. He did have all of the large pieces. The thing that amazed me about your story is you drove the car for several days AFTER hearing a foul noise from the engine...... Man, you are more brave than I!!!!!! $1,400 is prolly on the high side for the pump R&R. Mine was less than that and the job included new rollers (3) new belt and a recharge of coolant. All parts Porsche spec'ed and updated to newest release (such as pump and rollers). Had I known it was a water pump, I might have tackled the job myself....... I dunno. I had the plugs and coil packs replaced while they were at it. The car runs great and has 126k on the clock.

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This sounds simple so simple, but...

Looks like our original water pumps are nearing end of life, as we seem to be trending towards more replacements. I'm not hearing any issues with mine, but will probably get around to doing it in the fall.

I replaced my water pump at 42,000 miles, it was ok even the bearing was ok. I bought a metal impeller pump replacement part from DC Auto and it looks good, it was made in Stuttgart, so i thought that was good news. IT'S BEEN IN THERE FOR 6,000 miles now and so far so good. It was about $106 , cheap. I replaced it because I was seeing higher temperatures in summer but it was the damn hose, tiny pinhole where the hose has a 90 degree turn.

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If your bearing does ever fail, the metal vanes on the impeller disk might not shear off as they did in mine without taking chunks of the block with them. I think I prefer the plastic impeller OEM pump for that reason, even if it does cost $150 more than a cheap one. Hope yours holds up well.

Here is a diagram of the coolant flows. Not too detailed but it might help. https://rennlist.com/forums/images/attach/pdf.gif

Service manager at dealer says no issues with blockages as the vanes are chopped up into really fine pieces when the pump goes and are distributed throughout the system. Also Porsche has no procedure for flushing system as a result of water pump impeller damage and advised it is safe to install new pump. Be nice if the pieces were not there but realistically, short of disassembling the entire system for cleaning and inspection, there's no way to remove them.

Really? Ask him how many cracked M96 heads he has personally repaired. Follow that question up by asking him how large the capillaries inside these cylinder heads are at their smallest points. Just like they NEVER have a mileage or time in service replacement for these water pumps. Everything that the dealer offers was a PROJECTION when these cars and engines were new, what actually happens in the field isn't taken into consideration. You must do what is required. The engines that we see here with intermix have almost always had a new water pump installed just a few weeks or months prior to the cracked head episode that lands them here. SOme disassembly is required and beware that these tiny pieces can easily collect inside the capillaries of the cylinder head and lead to a localized hot spot that then leads to a crack that will propagate between the oil and coolant passages and lead to intermix. These jobs are never repaired by the dealer, because this sort of intervention is not recognized at a dealer level. They will only recommend "engine replacement", so they generally do not understand the dynamics of the episode. Their is a way to avoid these issues, but it takes effort and getting dirty. Trust me, you can't afford NOT to remove those pieces. This year we have seen more engines die from this than all other modes of failure combined, to include IMSB failure.

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So what is your recommendation as to what must be disassembled? How far does one go?

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No comment?

Here comes the Water Pump Guardian Jake - just to clarify: When you said that most engines with intermix problems had recently replaced water pumps. - do you mean water pumps replaced due to failure?

I think Jake is saying that after suffering a water pump failure the car is put back on the road with a new water pump (and without getting any old bits of the previous water pump out of the engine). With those little pieces still in there, the engine soon after gets a cracked head having nothing to do with the newly installed pump.

I agree with Jake that if the impeller has disintegrated the pieces can cause real problems in the engine, and the heads in particular. In the case of my intermix in2008 the pump impeller was intact,so the heads do crack from other causes. I think you would have to remove the heads and back flush each of the passages, which would require knowledge of exactly how the passages flow. As there are multiple paths of coolant flow just back flushing the system in general probably won't work. Not sure if this can be done with the heads on. Then also back flush the cooling passages in the engine block itself. You want to make sure no pieces are left where the coolant flows from the pump to the heads. Probably want to flush out the rest of the system, pipes, hoses, radiator, tank, in case any pieces made it through the larger passages, they could get recirculated and end up in the heads again. With all this it sure seems like replacing the pump every 40,000 to 50,000 miles is a cheap preventative maintenance routine. As with many of the means of failure in these engines, they may only happen with a small percentage of engines, but if it is yours it really hurts. And if you think about it, if only 3-5% fail due to water pumps, and the same due to IMSB, and the same for chain failure, and for cylinders going oval, and for liners slipping, etc.etc., this could lead to a significant percentage of failures overall. IMHO!

With all due respect this is all just anecdotal evidence. Maybe it will cause problems and maybe it will not, but one would have to do controlled studies to confirm objectively. Since Porsche has no contingency for this type of failure one could assume complications to be negligible. Agreed if it happens to me it will certainly be unfortunate. The pieces could have been blown out under pressure with the coolant so my concern may be unnecessary. If I assumed there were pieces lodged in the heads, even if the engine were cleaned some debris could have lodged in other places, only to work loose later. One would have to completely disassemble the entire engine and cooling system and visually verify all the pieces were removed to be sure. Who's going to do that? Replace the radiators? They certainly can't be inspected. I'm not going to disassemble the engine and cooling system. I could never justify the expense to pay someone else to do so, even if it were a realistic option. It's a risk I am forced to accept. Whatever happens, happens. C'est la vie.

Sorry, wasn't around the computer.. Putting together an R&D trip together... 6,000 miles in 10 days with a two day class thrown in the mix in Alberta Canada.. Other than removing the coolant console at the front of the engine and retrieve as many pieces as possible, there isn't much more you can do at home.. Worry less about the radiators than anything else.. You want the crap to stay out of the heads at all costs. The issue is the coolant path takes the debris straight to the heads from the impeller housing. A cooling system "Guardian" is already available and we use the arrangement on our turnkey engines. In my M96 complete mechanical classes and M96 Engine Rebuild school we hear a lot of stories about this coming from other shops as well. The issue is the worst on 2000 and 2001 models, by far. I'll post some video on our facebook page tomorrow, if I get a chance..

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wrong type of anti freeze over a period of a year or two. American AF breaks down the plastic in the system. It makes is soft and breaks easy

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whoah whoah whoah.....two day class in Alberta? When is this? Where is this? how do I get in on this? sean

Why don't you piece the propeller together and see size of missing pieces before chasing yourself into a frenzy?

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A presumptuous and inaccurate assumption...

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That's the first thing I did. I even posted a photo...

the only thing I see in your pics is the baseplate of the impeller, none of the blades themselves. So where are they and their many fragments?

I have always questioned the idea that non-Porsche/OEM antifreeze somehow damages the plastics in these engines (as opposed to being a profit center for Porsche). Is there any real proof of this? I know there are problems in mixing different types of antifreeze. After I repaired my intermix (not caused by a water pump problem) I did change out the water pump. I have been running Peak antifreeze since then, about 4 years and 18,000 miles. No problems so far. Maybe I should pull the pump and see if there is any real evidence of a problem. I don't believe in the concept of lifetime antifreeze. I chane mine every 3-4 years. And if you know how much these cars hold if you really flush out the system, using the OEM stuff is quite expensive. I do think you can get Pentosin for a lot less than at the Porsche dealer.

Ok. So 62k on the motor and now you all have me wanting to change the damn thing. I still haven't figured out if I should stay with the OEM plastic impeller or go to metal. Is the jury hung on this?

Think about it. When the impeller fell apart, circulation has stopped too. Flush the system, revers flush or if you wish, and the impeller parts will come out.

Not a valid assumption. The impeller could have been coming apart for a while, with small pieces coming off and circulating through the engine.

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I instruct these two day engine mechanical classes for the Worldpac Training Institute. More info here http://www.worldpac.com/training/classes/technical/ The best part is Charles Navarro (LN Engineering) and I will be driving 6,000 miles round trip there and back in a Boxster equipped with the IMS Solution.. SOON!

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Good question. Same one I asked and the reason I started the thread.

Jake, Anymore info on the IMS solution? Perhaps I missed it somewhere else...

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We have been working on it since 2009.. Other than that we aren't sharing anything online at all. Look for the debut in Excellence at the end of the year. This technology will only be available for install here at our facility.