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YOUR RESEARCHNot A Good Day Today...
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most failures have collateral damage
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The issue is most failures have collateral damage that effect the cylinder heads.
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I recall you mentioning that all of my motor turned out to be thrashed, including the heads.
Check stonegate auto sales, and they have some great prices
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Wow, I checked Stonegate Auto Sales, and they have some great prices on some Porsches!
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The world is filled with ******* rear-ending people.
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We only offer engines one way, and thats 100% complete, and installed into the car.
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From my understanding, replacing a chain in an engine is not entirely that hard in the hands of a skilled mechanic/rebuilder; however, the OP was driving the 996 when the chain broke and tried to restart it which caused collateral damage.
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I was driving my 2002 cab today around town. At 2500 rpm in second gear (steady state, no load on engine) there was a loud metallic grinding noise followed by a misfiring engine and loss of power. I pushed in the clutch, made it to the side of the road, and turned everything off.
I tried turning the engine over once. It turned but did not fire. Had the car flatbedded to my ace mechanic's shop.
He won�t be in to look at it until Monday, but I�m fearing the worst.
The car had the rms/ims treatment at 40k miles (preventative maintenance). Odometer now shows 72K. Perfectly maintained machine that was running perfectly until this happened.
Will report on the findings when I know what�s up.
Bill
Oh goodness, that really stinks. I've had that kind of thing happen to me and it's feels like you've been gutted. Maybe some of the Porsche experts on this forum like PorscheTech3 or even Flat 6 Innovations can assist you on what may be happening to your car and give you some valuable advice on the next steps. If your indy can't help, I would recommend Tony Callas up in Torrance.
Hate to see another one fall..
Being a 2002, and with the limited info from the OP, it sounds like a timing chain failure. These have become one of our most prominent failures as time takes it’s toll, and most are concentrated in the 2002 model year. Mileage does not seem to matter with these failures, and neither does maintenance.
It’s pretty easy to diagnose with the engine in the car.. Remove the cam tunnel (green) plugs in each cylinder head, exposing the camshafts. Slowly rotate the crankshaft and see if all the cams move. If you have one pair of cams that remain stationary, then it’s pretty conclusive. A lesser common failure is failure of the main IMS drive chain from the crankshaft. If this fails, then all of the cams will remain stationary when the crankshaft is rotated.
Of course, IMS tensioner paddle failure is still another possibility as well, and this will usually only retard the bank 1 cams.
There’s a lot more failures that the posted sympoms could be related to. The only way to really know is with a detailed teardown. Considering the engine was attempted to be restarted (never do that when you hear mechanical noises and an engine shuts down) I’d expect that you’ll have quite a bit of scecondary damage to other components.
If you’d like to set up a chat with Mr. Raby once you get some basic info from the shop, just submit a support ticket under the category “Help, my Porsche engine has failed!” category(these tickets get priority). l’ll make sure that he sees it.
Thanks for the good wishes above! I have a gut feeling that this is not a grenaded engine situation. Trying to think positive...
Have to say that even if the worst scenario comes true, I've gotten more worth out of this car in sheer FUN than I've put into it dollar wise.
If it seems prudent to sell as a roller, I'll do that and then go out and buy another one!
Bill
6L6, is it the car that's in the avatar picture? 2002 Cabriolet? Can you tell us what type of replacement bearing was installed on the car at 40K service? How was it maintained? Local shop, Porsche dealership, or DIY? Forgive my curiosity.
Could you tell us why the 2002 is more prone for chain failure than other models in the M96 generation? Is it just a bad year for chains? Bad design? I presume the chains were improved for 2003 and later?
I just found this digging around Rennlist...
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-3-causes.html
Yes, it's the car in my avatar. 2002 cab w 6/Speed manual tranny.
Do not know the replacement bearing type, but that work was done by the local Porsche dealer where the car was originally purchased new by my son-in-law. He lives very nearby, so I've driven the car since it was new and finally bought it from him about three years ago.
The car has been beautifully maintained by a 5-Star rated indie since Day One.
Everything on it was running PERFECTLY when this happened with zero warning. I drive the car every day, so there's no suffering from lot rot.
Just made the 200 mile roundtrip to Pebble Beach and back last week to watch the US Amateur Golf Championship. Car ran perfectly as it always has. If it had to break, I'm glad it broke locally and not far from home.
Bill
Fingers crossed its savable! Also interested in why 2002 is more prone? Maybe because it was the first run of the new 3.6 M96 and by 03-04 they had updated things on them?
Still no word on my Porsche today. Fingers still crossed!
Question: What's a fair price for my car if I end up having to sell it as a roller? It's in great shape, 72,000 miles, everything works properly (except the engine, of course).
It seems I see a number of $5K tossed around a lot in this forum for rollers. Does that sound about right? Car would be sold here in Silicon Valley.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Bill
I could be wrong but if you have the room to store it and the patience to sell it in parts you may be able to get more than that. Also I saw this earlier and thought it may be of interest to you?
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/p...680005255.html
Assuming it’s not a daily driver for you, or transportation that you need to depend on, now is the time to think about how much $$ you’d be willing to put into it to get it back to something you could confidently drive. Compare that number to the estimate you get from your repair guy. Make a decision from there.
HAHA Maybe the OP could start it up just enough to crash it into a tree *** end first? Reverse out of the driveway into oncoming traffic or something lol...
Bill, sounds like this is a really special car for your family. Basically, your family is the original owner! I would advise you to step back and take a deep breath before letting it go for a roller price. Don't make a rushed decision. Attempting to find another one-owner 996 cabriolet is near bought impossible. For the same quality as you've kept your 996, you'll pay north of $20K. A one-owner may even hit near $30K.
Welp... its bad news. The engine is toast. Lots of metal in the pan, some of it large chunks.
My techie thinks paddle tensioner failed. Doesn�t really matter I guess.
DANG!
Trchie will get back to me about a replacement engine. He has no interest in buying the car from me as a roller.
More as I learn it.
Bill
Bill, I'm sorry about this situation. Any chance you could take pics of the chunks in the sump? RND Engines had a sale on overstock M96 engines a few months ago. Don't think your 3.6 was on sale, but worth a look.
OK, so there are some long blocks out there for 8-10K (rebuilt). Add another 2K for labor and misc and you are back in the car for $10K. Surely, that is better than selling it for $5K?
Stonegate Auto Sales will buy the car as it is.
Tensioner paddle has always been a gotcha, and age isn�t helping them.
We do have one build slot open, if you love the car and want to keep it forever.
With this failure lots of collateral damage to the cylinder heads is usually a given. When the valve timing events retard due to the chain operating slackened, valves almost always collide with pistons. The issue with a short block is the heads are intended to be used over again, so things get expensive fast.
Of course, the tensioner paddle in the new short block is the same as what�s already failed in this engine..
I was at Porsche of Atlanta recently and they were explaining that the 996 is now a considered a "Porsche Classic" and will take on special attention. Dealerships will supposedly have specially trained technicians to address issues with these cars. Maybe the short block is one of the answers? The short block seems like an attractive option, but why in the world would you want to install a block with the same failure prone parts? Please enlighten me!
Jake: Ah, gotcha. I recall you mentioning that all of my motor turned out to be thrashed, including the heads.
If you happen to have pix of it, that would provide a good lesson/example of the collateral damage from this type of failure.
Early 997s (2005) came with M96 with the small single row bearing. No different than owning a 996.2. The late 2005 through 2008 997.1s had the large single row M97 engine. Fairly robust, but they will fail eventually. The 997.2s came with the redesigned 9A1 engine. No roller roller bearing IMSB.
This is based on my research while looking for a 997.
Well boys... I'm leaning towards parting company with my cab.
A rebuilt engine with the same inherent weaknesses that caused my perfectly maintained engine to fail makes little sense to me.
I've checked with two local indies and neither has any interest in the car at ANY price. Hauling charges to Georgia (Stonegate Auto Sales) from California would probably not put me ahead, dollar wise.
Unfortunately, I'm not a mechanic and therefore parting out the car is not an option.
May have to just lick my wounds, acknowledge it was a hell of a lot of fun to drive over the years, and send it to the crusher.
Bill
I wouldn't crush it.
Someone here would want a cab roller.
Anything but crushing!
I'm not a cab fan, but I bet I'd pay more for it than the crusher!
Prior to that, let us know and give us a chance to buy it and resurrect it.
OK Tex.
When I make the final decision (which won't be long in coming), I'll post it here and anyone interested can let me know.
My home is about 15 minutes from the San Francisco Airport.
Bill
Wow, I checked Stonegate Auto Sales, and they have some great prices on some Porsches!
https://www.stonegateautosales.com/c.../porsche.shtml
Looks like they install RND engines in their rollers.
Keep it in the Rennlist family. I'd be very interested if I wasn't in the middle of reviving one now.
Remember, not all 996 engines fail, we only hear the bad stories!
Hey Bill, I'm the guy in the C4S that came up and chatted with you. My heart sank when I turned on my block and saw a 996 going up a flatbed, we all think about the odds often I'm sure! Sorry to hear about the diagnosis, hope to see you in another Pcar soon!
6L6.... my car was smashed into today. Stopped at a light and hit from behind. I think it's totalled. So, Once again, can relate. Sorry about your car. I will probably replace it with 997.2. See ya in the 997 forums!
Actually, ******* are more alert to their surroundings. More than likely these people were distracted by some sort of technology. I call the depravity of the modern human being "techno-zombie syndrome". Techno-zombies have narcissistic tendencies to constantly take images (i.e. selfies) of themselves. They can be seen exhibiting this type of behavior during a multitude of daily activities such as walking, exercising, eating, and/or driving a motor vehicle while not paying full attention to anyone or anything around them in the real world. It's all about them in their little social media bubble. It's their stage and they like it. They possess characteristics of disconnect when other humans beings are attempting to communicate with them in the real world. Conducting a normal conversation with a techno-zombie is tiresome and usually leads to having to repeat things multiple times similar to conversations with a person that suffers from ADD and ADHD. Unfortunately, the current generation of techno-zombie are extremely apathetic to the consequences and risks of innocents lives while operating a motor vehicle. The only way to fix a techno-zombie is by unplugging them. Putting one in isolation has similar withdrawal effects as a meth addict during detox.
Mike: Very sorry to hear your machine was totaled! What a bummer that is, but it sounds like you got out without whiplash injuries. Sure hope so anyway!
And Yes, you may see me in the 997.2 Forum.
Bill
You know, if I knew then what I know now, here's what I'd have done to my Cab:
I would have had the pulley tensioners replaced every 10,000 miles and the chain every 15,000 to 20,000 miles as normal maintenance. If I end up with another 996, I will do this for sure.
Bill
I have a 2004 3.6L engine with 35K miles on it available. I have the original car it came out of so I can verify the mileage. I was planning on using it but might go a different route. Might be a good replacement engine for this car. One problem is I am on the East Coast.
Thanks for the offers above.
As of this morning my techie is expressing an interest in the car. I'm going to see where that goes and will get back to those above who expressed an interest if something doesn't work out.
I've decided my next Porsche will be a 997.2 cab.
Thanks again for all the great insight!
Bill
From my understanding, replacing a chain in an engine is not entirely that hard in the hands of a skilled mechanic/rebuilder; however, the OP was driving the 996 when the chain broke and tried to restart it which caused collateral damage. Translation - the engine is toast!
What thread are you referring to? The Rennlist 997 forum IMS poll states that almost 7% of M97 (i.e. 997) owners have experienced IMS failure. And that's not a scientific poll by any stretch of the measure!
Obviously, all polls are flawed simply by the fact that there's no reliable way extrapolate the poll #'s to the general population (I don't care what the pollsters say - Polls are flawed - especially when trying to determine something as specific as IMSB failure - "unscientific" is way too kind...). In any case, at the very least it should read * "almost 7% of respondents to the Rennlist 997 Forum poll of M97 (i.e. 997) owners have experienced IMS failure"... The reason I point this out is because if it was really anywhere near 7% of the general population of 997 owners following the M96 debacle, there would have been another class action in a heartbeat.
Bill; I had almost the same senario happen to me about 4 weeks ago. 2002 Cab 4 58k miles. Driving the car about 30 min, city streets. Was stopped at a car wash; car stalled
restarted it and sounded and felt like a couple coilers were pulled off. I stupidly drove it a mile ( temp, temp,oil press ok no check engine light ) Turned it off and grey smoke and some build from exhaust. towed to INDY;he cranked it and some coolant from both exhaust ! Did a compression test and L 0,120,140,R 165,0 ,200. Either cracked heads or block ITS TOAST.
My hearts not into selling as a roller, have owend it for 10 great yrs;with all the maintence done to a fault.
I have contacted both RND and Jake Raby shops for a LONG BLOCK rebuild and the cost and availability is a deterrent.( I will share the numbers w you in an e mail if you like).
Checking w a few shops in the Bay Area ; it seems no one wants to mess w a rebuild of a SHORT BLOCK reman, whichh is cheaper and more readily avail .( "TOO INVOLVED and risky"
Going the long block route will leave me "under water" asthey say, with the currentsale prices of my car. But not giving up yet;
GOOD LUCK to you and your decision.
There are several rebuilt long blocks for $11K. Let's say for $10K with some negotiation. $2-3K labor for the swap, you are out with $13K
is that not doable ?
Thanks for your info, Chef.
Will be selling my car as a roller for sure. My techie and his partner are putting together an offer for me next week.
Will keep the Forum posted on how it all goes.
Bill
"There are several rebuilt long blocks for $11K. Let's say for $10K with some negotiation."
^^ The question becomes, From who? And, what does "rebuilt" mean? i.e. what parts have been replaced? Have the cylinders been sleeved? If so, what kind of sleeves were used? Etc...
https://www.carsdirect.com/car-maint...e-performance\
For sake of argument a long block is almost "plug and play" where a short block will require some assembly most notably the cylinder heads will not be included.
The 2 top rebuilders I've found are RND and Jake Raby (FLAT6) both are busy and pricey; but with complete long and short blocks
sleeved and new top end parts (long block). The problem I've found pricing and wait aside Oisin the SF Bay Area it impossible to
find an INDY that wants to tackle a short block(cheaper) rebuild. Bu haven't given up yet. not ready to sell it as a roller.
Guys, I know it sucks, but when anyone faces the situation of a catastrophic failure like this, we have to just suck it up and face it one way or another. It�s not the end of the world to lose $15k in a day. If it is, we are driving the wrong car.
How can we justify $15k loss in a day? Well, it�s not technically a day. It�s over the lifetime of our vehicle ownership. We can lose $15k-$25k on a minivan.
Heres the way to get over a loss like this:
1). Get the car rebuilt and then sell it as a rebuilt car. We will likely not lose $15k, but maybe 1/2 that amount, if it�s done right.
2.) Buy a cheap Mazda for $3k and drive that in the meantime.
These cars are a steal at $18k all day long, but they should be worth $35k if history is any guide. I�m not saying we should hold the car for 10-15 years, but holding for 6-12 will almost certainly result in a sustained (flat) price. The risk is continuing to drive the car. Hence, the $3k Mazda point I made earlier.
Nice dose of wisdom right there! It's refreshing to read someone that doesn't stick his head under a rock, but instead is real about the reality of owning a high performance sports car like a Porsche 911.
Welp...
I sold it yesterday as a roller for $4.5K. My techie bought it.
Will soon start looking for a replacement machine. Most likely it will be a 997.2.
Have to say I loved every minute behind the wheel of my cab for many years. I feel I got my money’s worth out of it many times over.
And even in the very end, it failed just a half mile from my techie’s shop.
Thanks for all the great advice offered in this thread. And, if you haven’t already done it, replace those tensioners and that cam chain at regular intervals.
Cheers and happy Porsche motoring!
Bill
The issue is most failures have collateral damage that effect the cylinder heads. The factory short block requires the heads to be reused. Of course, few people know the failure points of these heads, and valve guides, and seats are not available OEM, we've had to have these parts made. Its better that way, since the materials can be updated, along with the installation regimen.
Also, lots of people are given misinformation concerning the short block warranty, and they don't realize it until they have a claim that goes unpaid.
Shortblocks are confusing at best, and we'd never offer them here at Flat 6. I refuse to allow an unknown person install an unknown cylinder head and set of components onto a crankcase assembly that we've built. We only offer engines one way, and thats 100% complete, and installed into the car. Anything else is nothing more than risky compromise.
The mechanic who bought the car has finished a rebuild on it. It appears it was definitely the cam chain that broke and then caused the engine to grenade. 72,000 miles on the chain.
Seeing the damage that was caused by this failure at just 2500 rpm, hate to think what would have happened if the engine was redlined when it broke...
Bill
Sorry Bill, I don't have any pics. But I saw what was in the pan and it was parts from massive destruction.
These guys are outstanding mechanics and I'm sure could do a full rebuild with their eyes closed.
Should add that a friend of a friend just had his 997.2 motor blow up at 33,000 miles while just "cruising down the street".
Meticulously maintained machine from what I'm told. If I get the details of what happened in the engine, I will post them here.
SO... I think that as much as I love Porsche 911's, it's too big of a financial risk for me at age 73. If I spent $55K or more for a nice 997.2 and then had the engine blow up, selling it as a roller wouldn't make me feel very good.
I HATE to say it guys, but I may be looking at something with an American V-8, manual transmission, and the top goes down.
Bill
It sounds like you want the 996 turbo. It has a completely different motor and it is very very reliable and built like a brick $h1t house. They can be had in really good condition for 50k or less.
Wow sorry to hear that. I was going to revisit selling my 996.2 cab next summer, but you're local and I'm not driving my car enough. I'm sorting something out at the moment, but I'd be willing to meet up for a test drive later if you're interested in staying with the 996.
Black 2002 C2 cab 6MT with 35K miles. PPI and IMS prequalification done prior to purchase by certified IMS installer (Callas Rennsport). IMS Solution, RMS, clutch, water pump done by Callas in the last 2 years. Coolant expansion tank, alternator regular, belt done at home with regular maintenance. Has new shocks, newer rear tires. Despite the low miles, this car is a driver and the cosmetic condition is as such.
Yep, definitely worth consideration for sure.
However, I'm still in the dumps over my Porsche loss. I've driven many Corvettes and they're cool, but Porsches are something else altogether.
Learned long ago to not make any purchases under duress. Gonna let some time pass before I move on, hopefully with a clear head and open mind.
Bill
Thinking about it again, if I were 73 (and not 51) I would take a serious look at the Cadillac CTS V.
It's much more comfortable, and easier to get in and out of.
It's not a bad drive either.
My 55 year old sister has had a couple of them.
She's asked me to drive it for her from time to time.
I may have to move to a CTS V one of these days.
My wife has bad knees and complains when she gets in or out of my 996.(or the BMW 135i that proceeded it)
Right now she rides with me 3 or 4 times a year so it's not a big deal.
I have a nice Range Rover Sport and a Mercedes C350 to get me around, Tex. The Porsche was my "fun car" and that's what I'll be looking to replace.
Happy to say I'm still in good shape and pretty much feel as good at 73 as i did at 23. Exercise and clean living has its rewards.
Bill
Here's a thought, have your indy put in FSI or RND engine and sell the car back to you. Catastrophic failure points gone. I think Cuda sold his wrecked car with the FSI motor to Norspec dismantling a while, might be worth it to see if they still have it.
Not an FSI motor, a 2005 replacement motor with the larger IMSB. And full Fabspeed exhaust. I still have the car. Working on some options. So far, I'm up to a 36K payout on it.
