Engine failure #2!!! OMG!!! Why me?!!!!!

Sorry for getting dramatic. I'm not mad. I knew the engine was bad. Just a little 996 humor right before Halloween. :-P CLIFF's NOTES: Engine failed due to a seized/failed piston. Block definitely damaged. Hoping that's the only damage. I should have pics of the carnage in the oil pan up on my InstaGram shortly. leftfordeadcars is my account. Ok, so I was able to work on my second engine that failed. It was in a SP996 racecar, which I own now as well. The previous owner was in a race and said all of a sudden the engine, if I remember correctly, he said "just let go". Few details: -2002 3.6L M96 with 35K miles -Never had the IMS bearing replaced I started off troubleshooting by trying to turn the crank manually (engine is out of the car). It would rotate almost 360*. If I started at 12:00 and cranked the engine counter-clockwise, it would stop at approximately 1:00. I then pulled the coilpacks and spark plugs. Each spark plug was not damaged and all had consistent soot on them. I was wondering if at least one would be mangled. All looked fine. I could see each cylinder had pistons in them. I was expecting at least one to have a failed piston. All pistons had what looked to be exactly the same carbon build up. That's good, I thought to myself. I figured I would now pull the oil pan. I don't know if he pulled the oil pan. I just pulled it and it didn't seem like it had been removed since the failure. As I was loosening the oil pan, I could see coolant slowly dripping out. Then I noticed oil and coolant that was slightly mixed lightly pour out. As the oil pan dropped, I could see pretty large chunks of metal. I immediately thought cylinder walls but then noticed most of the shapes to resemble a piston, mainly the bottom half. I then put a rubber hose in each spark plug hole and rotated the crank. Not surprisingly, the last combustion chamber I tried, that piston was seized. This is the cylinder closest to the rear of the car on the right side. I decided to check all of the other ones again. Same result. However, this time I noticed the cylinder closest to the rear of the car on the left side has a little oil coming out of it. I wasn't too shocked. I figured the block has been damaged due to the coolant and oil mixture in the oil pan. So after what I tested, I think it is safe to assume the cylinder on the right side locked up and the piston broke at the wrist pin. The rod probably smacked against the cylinder wall and broke through to the cylinder on the left side. So now I am hoping this engine can be rebuilt. Anyone think it's likely it can? What do you think the odds are the valves might be bent? After seeing the spark plug, I feel that it might be unlikely the valves are bent and the head SHOULD be fine. Let's assume the previous owner tried to restart the car. Think this could've caused damage? I never asked, but that's usually the first thing people try. Hoping the seized piston would prevent any additional damage. Your thoughts? FYI: Link to my first engine failure thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-not-mad.html ************************EDIT: Forgot to mention the piston seized just short of Top Dead Center.*************

Ah man sorry to hear. I wish you luck with her.

Just for curiosities sake, what does a roller SP996 run these days?

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Pics are up. So after thinking about things last night, I started to put a few things together. I noticed the oil pan was MUCH cleaner than my other ones and had some stickers on it. I didn't think much of it since the car only has 35K miles. After some research, I realized this car has an X51 oil pan and an upgraded oil pan baffle kit. I assume it is the X51 baffle kit as well. The baffle kit is metal but still retains the plastic flaps. As you can see in the pics, the flaps' shapes are distorted. It's pretty safe to assume this engine suffered an oiling issue during a turn. I am hoping this engine can be used as a core for a rebuild in the future. Anyone know how much damage a block can take before not being reusable? I am not sure how much of the block is taken out when the Nickasil sleeves are fitted. The block is not damaged externally. All of the damage seems to be internal. I bought my first 911 3 years ago with a blown engine. It was $8K. He actually was a member on this forum. I mainly bought it to learn off of. I pulled the engine and sold the rest (Full car minus the engine) for $5500. I found out the car had been in an accident and been completely repainted. The paint job was pretty good but you could tell it was not factory. How I got my SP996 racecar and my wrecked 911 was a rare occurrence. I got a killer deal on the two cars and can't really say it is a deal most people will encounter. The deal included a FANTASTIC build SP996 with a blown engine and MANY OEM and aftermarket parts, track tires, and 3 extra sets of wheels, and a wrecked 911 with a running engine to use as a donor..

If a restart was attempted, then yes, most likely additional damage was caused (so I've been told)...Let us know how it goes.

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I am most worried about the crank and crank cradle. The fact that the block needs to be resleeved anyway gives me hope it can be saved. I am fine with some bent valves as long as the head wasn't damaged. I'll update as I can.

Valves stick out farther than the spark plug. There may be damage to the heads still. I had one of my VW Scirocco GT3's racing engine's timing belt break at 7000RPM and the spark plugs looked ok. But the camshaft was broken into 6 pieces...and the valves made impressions on the top of the pistons. The crankshaft was damaged. Spark plugs still looked brand new. I hope you have a better outcome.

I am confused, did you buy all your porsches with blown engines? Or did they break while you drove it? LS converted SP996 most be the ultimate track toy (Track build M96 would be better but so expensive)

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It is confusing. Lol I've owned 3 996 911's. First one I bought 3 years ago. It had the scavenge pump failure, which led to the timing chain breaking. I pulled that engine out and sold that roller. 1 year later I found a forum member selling the SP996 that he recently blew the engine and included a wrecked 2004 911 that had a good low-mileage engine. So now I have 2 996's and 3 3.6L engines. 2 engines are blown, 1 still runs. Planning to sell the running engine and have at least one rebuilt. Hoping to have the second one rebuilt in the future. 1 bored to 3.8L and the other a 4.3L. The 4.3L is still under development though. I can wait. I mainly buy cars that need a lot of work. Just look at the examples of the crap I buy on my InstaGram. Lol I'm a purist. I like to keep the chassis and engine of the same manufacturer. My ideal project is taking an older car and swapping in a newer/better engine from a newer car by the same manufacturer. I actually prefer rare cars with blown engines/transmissions. It gives me a great excuse to pull it out, clean up the car and engine, replace as many maintenance items and make it better by potentially upgrading to a larger engine. I've done this to several cars. Currently swapping out the 3.0L engine out of my Accord to either a 3.2L or a 3.5L J35 Acura TL Type S engine. Would like to eventually put in the 3.7L J37 from the 2009 Acura TL SH-AWD. I bought the Accord with a blown clutch and needed the timing belt, water pump replaced. Great time to swap to a better engine! The TL engine is pretty inexpensive at $700-$900. Not too far off from 300 hp either!

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Wow! That is amazing. What's the plan with the SP996 roller? What engine goes in there? Are you using the nickies from LN? Or how broken are your engines? When my 996 blows I would love to try and rebuild one, just so little information available. I rebuild a Nissan engine from time to time and it's pretty easy because there are so much information about it. Seems like very few DIYers rebuild the M96.

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There's some rebuild info here and on Youtube, but the best place I've heard of to learn almost everything there is to know about rebuilding an M96 is here: http://www.theknowledgegruppe.com/ I plan on attending in 2019. (I've rebuilt engines before, but not an M96) I keep checking the website weekly (sometimes bi-weekly) waiting for the 2019 schedule. I've been promised by a couple of people involved that it is a couple of weeks away. But I heard this starting in early Sept, so it's like Christmas and a jack in the box all rolled up into one. .

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Sold mine recently for $4500. It was a 2002 Cab.

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Was it a Spec 996 race car from a cab? Or just a regular 996 cab?

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Doing those classes and build a proper M96 would be awesome! Can LS swap something else to get that off my bucket list.

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I'm hoping to take a few classes as well. Pretty interesting. And when I say interesting, I am not talking about the M96 engine. I have been pretty vocal about how bad I think these engines are. I am more intrigued by the instructors. I think I can learn more from them about engine building in general vs the M96. I don't think I will ever work on an M96 more than I am now. I am more interested in how to approach engine building. I want to build other engines. Plus, for what that group has done for the M96 community is tremendous and I want to support them as best as I can. The ONLY reason why I am messing with Porsches, particularly the 986/996, is because they still hold some value and the driving experience is unique. Also, had there not been an option to rebuild the engine, make it more reliable, and increase the displacement, I would not own a Porsche right now. Not a fan of just swapping the same engine in without any potential to increase performance, especially when the replacement engine is VERY likely to fail again. Most of the excitement comes from taking something that is unreliable and unloved and trying to make it better, without losing any money. It's a game to me. I was hoping I could potentially repair my blown M96s, while learning about them at the same time. That didn't happen, but I am still having fun coming up with a game plan. He was asking about Spec 996 racecars.

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What is so crappy about the M96 besides the IMS, RMS and D-Chunk failure? Not sure why the D-Chunk occurs. It's pretty dull performance wise compared to it's rival the E46 M3, I can agree on that.

Oh boy. This thread is taking a turn from hoping to rebuild this engine to why the M96 isn't good. lol I'm game! Let's look at the issues objectively. I like debating that way. I understand when these cars came out, Porsche was under severe distress of potential bankruptcy. I assume that was a huge contributor to the issues of the M96. I can't imagine what kind of decisions have to be made when a brand like Porsche has to even consider bankruptcy. That's an assumption, but I like to give them the benefit of the doubt. Not just say, "Porsche, you suk!" without knowing other factors that have major influence on other decisions. Ok, back to being objective. So, yes, the IMS bearing is an issue. A pretty major one, no doubt. I still don't think it's the worst At least it is serviceable. However, just imagine talking to someone who isn't knowledgeable about these issues, or even cars in general, and you told them there's an engine that you have to constantly monitor the oil filter for metal fragments, the less you drive it, the more unreliable it gets, and at any moment your engine could blow up, particularly under 2500 RPM. If you asked that person who they thought made that engine, do you think most responses would be Porsche or Hyundai/Kia/Yugo? Then you tell them that there is a temporary fix for it, but that costs about $2000 each service interval. However, once you get that bearing replaced, you also still risk things failing like the rod bolts, cylinder linings (D Chunk or slipping), water pump impeller blowing up, timing chains, crankshaft thrust shims (just found out about this one), heads cracking, cylinder scoring, valvetrain issues, and oiling issues (I believe this contributes to the cylinder scoring). Then imagine telling this same person that without upgraded oil pan parts (still no guarantee) and constantly monitoring your oil level, the engine has a higher probability of locking up due to lack of oil while taking turns too fast..........IN YOUR PORSCHE!!!! lol Not only that, if your engine blows up, replacing it with another one that hasn't been rebuilt to address any of these issues just puts you right back where you were. Any one of these things failing on your way home from the shop after installing the replacement engine. Oh, probably around $10K for this engine, too! I hope no one gets mad. Not bashing. Just stating facts. It is what it is when it comes to the M96. :shrugs Anyway, the next plan of action is to check to see if the valves are ok.

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I don't think the IMS is a big issue, it can be fixed! Could even be a DIY job, same with water pump. What concerns me is stuff like D-Chunk failure that nobody knows why it happens. I would think this would be fine if you could get a junk yard replacement for cheap, like any other brand. Some the racers I know that race asians cars just replace engines when they blow with junk yard engines, there are so many and it's cheaper than a rebuild. I wasn't aware of all those issues you listed

It is interesting to observe the waves of hysteria that occur on luxury/near luxury vehicles from when they are new to when they get down market enough that I can afford them (having had various BMWs, Porsches and Audis, I see the same pattern over and over). The original buyers fret over stuff like detailers leaving swirls in the paint at delivery, dealer sales personnel, difficulty getting an allocation for their preferred car, etc, The conversation devolves to more pedestrian concerns with subsequent owners - honoring the CPO warranty, is an aftermarket warranty worth it, what radar detector is best, should I buy a new stereo, who has the best deal on accessories. Eventually it gets to the point where people can buy the car for the equivalent of a Honda Civic, and buyers that wouldn't otherwise consider it realize they can get one if they scrape, so conversations are more like, what's the best place to find a roller, who has the best salvage parts, where can I find a deal on performance bits, who has a good indy mechanic, what's better zip ties or safety wire, what kind of transmission oil do you use since the dealer stuff is so expensive, do I wrap or have it painted, etc. Eventually you get to the point where anybody and their brother can buy on dirt cheap for a fraction of the purchase price new, and a replacement engine costs more than they paid for the car. Then you get all kinds of discussions about how horrible the cars are, how expensive they are to maintain compared to a Honda, etc. It cracks me up. Go poke around on the 991, 997, GT2/GT3, 993, 944 forums if you don't believe me. We're in used civic territory folks, for a car that used to cost $80-120K new. The model has known issues. You've gotta pay to play. Fix it and drive it.

I bet if you'll go onto any car enthusiast forum you'll find some FUD pertaining to their car. Check out the Corvette C6 Z06 Forums. They don't worry about anything...except dropped valves and engines going boom! BMW N54 forums, you'll read about thrown rods,($10K+ to replace?!?) electric water pumps, waste gate rattle, smoking turbos, lightweight transmissions, cracked valve covers, PVC issues. Subaru WRX/STI you'll read about blown head gaskets and blown head gaskets...and blown head gaskets. Check other forums (i.e. later 928s, and a lots more) where the engines have timing belts and interference engines. We are not alone.

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In the 1gen Toyota Tundra forum all they talk about is how their cars never break down and how much more reliable it is over the F150. "At 200k and not even broken in yet"

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I was reading about the cylinder liner issues earlier. I will see if I can find the explanation. I didn't really focus on it because I knew it was a problem and that at least there is a fix. I totally agree with you! It is neat to see. I have been around the car game for a while. The car I noticed the most about was the E36 M3 and the E46 M3. I bought my first new car (BMW 325ci) in 2001. That was when the E36 was still fairly new and the E46 M3 first came out. Most of the threads about the E36 were questions about detailing the car, questions about the features, what kind of oil to use, and posting pictures of their cars in random shots. Then as the cars aged, the threads turned to issues they were having with the car like sagging glove boxes, Then as the original owners started to sell them, younger buyers bought them up. they started posting more about modifying the car. Usually started out with modifications like changing out the lights from amber to clear, then to suspension mods like coilovers. Most threads didn't talk much about maintenance. Then as the maintenance started coming due on things like control arms, bushings, cooling system, etc..they sold them to people whio are in the Civic-buyers market. Now these tried to do as little as possible in terms of maintenance but focused on modifications. With their limited budgets, they bought low-quality modifications. The cooling systems were blowing up and ruining engines, etc. Now the cars need so much work and money to get them reliable, the cars pass from one owner to another. That happened with the E36, then the E46. I stopped caring about the M3 after the E46. I am sure it is still the same trend. Someone mentioned this to me but I am not sure if it is true. He told me that the quality of OEM-style parts generally are better quality when the cars are newer, but then the manufacturers start cutting costs to lower the prices as the cars get older and the newer owners are looking for cheaper parts. Not sure if that is true or not. I whole-heartedly agree that most cars have issues. I can't think of one car that hasn't had issues. What makes the 996 unique is the number of potential issues, how readily available replacement engines are, and how much the replacement engine costs. I was at VIR in August and ran into a guy with a C6 Z06. He told me about blowing up his engine. He said had he tried to get a replacement Z06 engine, it would be expensive. He had alternatives though. He bought a small V8, bored it out, and was back on the road for not too much money, all things considered. Please note that this was a track car that was beat on lap after lap for time trials. Not comparable to a 996 that blew idling while going on a Sunday cruise and most definitely has never seen a track. As for cars like the BMW N54, WRX, etc, you are probably talking about people who modify their cars for high HP. I would be surprised if the issues you cited are high in frequency for people who have stock engines. Not only that, BMW used the N54 in several models so replacement engines can be purchased easier. I believe the N54 was only in the 2007 335i before they started using the N55 but I think the N54 was still used in the 135 and maybe a few others. Not positive. Same goes for cars like the WRX. Remember, the issues listed for the M96 apply mainly to engines that are stock and don't get beat on. Good discussion, guys! I like these kinds of discussions!

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I had one for several years. Reliable as heck but the frame did have issues with rust. I know there was a recall, but still was an issue. Great truck though!

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Are you telling me to beat harder on my engine? The higher the RPM the more oil pressure, that is how I justify never being under 3000rpm

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Funny you should ask that. I have been debating what to do with my running 35K miles engine. Still considering using it. With all of these issues and the engine being unreliable if it hasn't been properly rebuilt, I say drive it like it's going to fail tomorrow! Seriously! If I end up using it, I will enjoy it. Of all the potential weak points of this engine, the engine literally can fail idling or at 7000 RPM. Have fun with it while it's still running, you know?! The first engine I bought that was blown was when the car was being driven around normally. The second engine (one in this thread) failed while racing. At least the owner racing was enjoying the engine when it went! lol Bottomline, enjoy the car. Don't live in fear. Usually when you worry about things happening, they do. This thread, nor the discussion, is to cause fear or say the 996 is garbage. It's just to cite the obvious issues and how to deal with them. Ignoring them and just driving the car is as good of an option as having the engine pulled out and rebuilt properly.

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I too would like to get in to that class but time and travel expenses are holding me back right now.

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Take the online class. It's not as in depth, but the travel expenses are reasonable.

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Hell yeah!

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Keep an eye on the Knowledge Gruppe website. We're ironing out the schedule for 2019 now. As long as there continues to be demand for the M96 hands on classes, I'm sure they will continue, but we're adding other classes to the lineup like an aircooled class coming up later this month. What is old is new again!