Need Advice Please - Sell or Fix 2003 911 IMS failure

Hello Everyone, The folks over at the Pelican Parts forums said I should post this here too... I am in dire need of advice. I bought a 2003 C2 about 3 weeks ago. It has 80k miles and is in good condition. A few days ago the IMS decided to self-destruct. Catastrophic engine failure. The shop says I need to replace the engine. I have yet to make a payment on the car and the dealer will not help out. I'm devastated. What should I do? Should I try to sell it? If so, where could I sell it and how much can I expect as a fair price? Or, should I keep it and fix it? Should I fix it myself with an ebay rebuilt engine? Like this one: https://goo.gl/Ukcu7e Thanks in advance for your advice. I truly appreciate it.

Wow, I'm sure you are devastated. We feel for you. There are many choices, the one you posted is an interesting one that I don't recall seeing before. However, there is RND engines ($$$), Flat Six Inovations ($$$, long lead time due to backlog), and Martin out of Florida.....MB motorsports. Pros and cons to all. Here is a quick link to MB: https://treasure.craigslist.org/pts/6146280526.html Where are you located?

Sell. Sorry to hear about that, that is pretty crappy. I would part out the engine parts and transmission then sell the chassis to try and recoup the rest. OR: screw your credit up and just let it get repossessed. Sucks you are making payments.

sell it as a roller and take your losses everyone knows the 996 is the worst gamble in the car buying world we feel your pain but as we all know its a terrible car

1 post uk may 17 member just sayin

Is the 996 more or less likely to grenade than the Boxster?

1: give back to bank, mess up credit, loose down payment and tax. 2: sell, you would need to pay balance of loan and would loose down payment, tax etc. 3: fix, this sounds like the cheapest alternative. Show us these numbers based on what you paid and what you owe.

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The engines share the same design so neither is more or less likely to be susceptible. Have it replaced with an LN bearing make sure it hasn't started going already. To the OP this sucks and Jake's PPI video just got posted which double sucks because it may have saved you.

Now is not a good time to loose your patience. Fix it & rebuild to 4.0L and redo the suspension to handle the increased power. Your going to thank me later. For all intensive porpoises, its just the beginning.

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If the car is financed I don't think upgrading to a 4.0L and all the suspension is a wise financial idea for the OP or they would have paid for it outright? THis is only a guess... Again OP i'd focus on sourcing a good used engine, check the oil before purchase and have the garage swap it out. That its the cheapest option or part it out to get your money back.

sorry to hear. the dealer or at least the guy who sold it to the dealer knew this was about to happen. They probably found metal bits in the oil filter and decided to pass the problem on to someone else. That sucks. Good luck!

This hits so many RL 996 forum hot buttons I thought it was a troll too. But I see the Pelican thread, so assuming it's real, really sorry for your loss. I'd research that Vertex motor more thoroughly because it sounds like a good deal. $9K motor that addresses some of the known failure points. Say it's $3K to install at the shop, that's $12K and I get the car back. Add $7K for roller value, and you get a $19K sale price breakeven. If you paid more than $19K, fixing is cheaper and vice versa. If this is your daily, factor in the cost of having to get a replacement ride if decide not to fix. These are made up numbers, you should do some research and fill it in for yourself. Good luck.

How much cash on hand do you have to invest in a motor? I might be tempted to tow it to the dealer you bought it from and leave it...

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I'd say it's real. I told him to post over here. Raby has posted several stories of buyers with cars that blow up within days of purchase. Certainly nothing new with that scenario. In my opinion the OP should buy a used engine and go that route. Otherwise, sell the car and take the loss. If the car was finance he probably doesn't have the cash for a RND engine and cost to replace.

Sell it as a roller. These posts help hold down the 996 cars value. 29 modes of failure and counting. Worse car ever. Call your local indy for 10k worth of work and your car will only have 19 modes of failure left. I dont feel sorry for this guy or anyone else. You buy a used car as is. Risky 996 buys are not a new thing. Its not like this is a fresh story. If this was a Honda or Toyota I would feel bad for the guy. But come on, a used 996 with 80k on the clock.

So what's wrong with the Vertex rebuilt engine? Basically $9,300 shipped to your mechanic. Figure $3,000 more to have it installed, fluids, etc. $12,000+/- and he's back on the road with probably 3 or 4 years of low maintenance driving ahead. Not cheap, but not exactly catastrophic.

What are you capable of doing yourself? Do you have the tools, knowledge, and space to remove and install an engine? If you have to pay to get all the work done, no matter which option you choose, it will be hard to justify the numbers to repair your car. I agree with Turbodan that the previous owner probably noticed metal particles in the oil filter, changed to oil, and sold it. The dealer you got it from my have purchased it at auction, so he may not have suspected anything was wrong. Then again, he may have known all about it. Since it has been three weeks, it would be difficult to go after him, it think. The least expensive route would be if you search around for a used engine and are lucky enough to find a good one out of a wreck at a decent price. Remove the old engine yourself and install the new one. Sell the old engine for $1500 or $2000 to recoup some of your expenses. You will probably still be out at least $7000, net. I feel bad for you. Good luck.

Yep. Real post. I appreciate all the advice you guys are giving. Trying to take it all in now, but wanted to throw a quick thanks out so you guys wouldn't think I'm a fake.

Not much to add...just want to post my moral support.

If you keep an eye out on the forums and main web channels (ebay - LA Dismantler, searchTempest for aggregated Craigslist searches, etc.), you might be able to find a used engine with a good history behind it. I realize it's not ideal, but others have gone that route with good results. Good luck going forward-

This sucks.. Someone probably knew the Bearing was failing, after finding debris in a recent oil change.. They traded it in... New buyer gets the car without an invasive PPI, and BOOM! This is exactly why I helped PCA produce the videos that the Just released yesterday. This plays out all the time these days. According to the Miles on the car and etc, I have options for your that no one else has.

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Help the forum out. name of dealership who sold car and name of shop that diagnosed catastrophic failure. I am sure this is legit...

Everyone is assuming that the rebuilt motor is 9K +/- but what about the core charge of 4K? if the IMS went out then it is most likely that the damage to the motor is to an extent that the core charge will be non-refundable so expect the motor to be in the range of 13K +/-. Am I wrong? Just want the OP to know his realistic options.

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Good point. You want to clarify that with Vertex. Ask what percent of returned cores qualify for the full $4,000 refund. Please post the answer so we know.

Jake was there an intense oil flush procedure as a very last resort I read that you mentioned once or did I make that up in my head? From memory I think it was a series of oil changes and procedures to flush the oil several times to attempt to remove the material? Or is this engine possibly past that point and the fact that a new bearing would be needed and couldn't be installed because of this MOF anyway? Guess we can never really understand the MOF with an internet diagnosis.

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Thanks, tips.

Tips "sell it as a roller"

OP, that sucks, I had something similar happen to me but it was cored cylinders. Bought the car and not even two months later, I am ripping out the engine for a full rebuild. You have lots of options, unfortunately, they all cost $10k +, and that includes selling the car as a roller.

Just say-in. Based on OP posts he's a newbie and taking on a used 80k mi car, IMS failure in first few weeks of ownership, not not clear on what to do, turns to boards for help making simple decision led me to "sell it as a roller". The decisions on a rebuild are many and the costs are high no matter which direction he takes. The math doesnt work. Sell it take your loss and move on. The horror stories on 996s are many and this story is not new. The only time it may work is when the P car owner can do much of the work himself. If youre a P guy and have some basic knowledge and cash sure you have options. But this guy post tell us he is in over his head and that limits his options. Not being harsh just trying to be realistic given the limited data supplied. That and I am still skeptical of this entire post. Pictures? Names of shop and dealership? Folks throwing out 10k numbers do realize thats a bare minimum. This is a 15-25k all in rebuild if his shop has confirmed a "catastrophic" failure and a huge undertaking for a guy that appears to be overwhelmed and under capitalized. 80k mi car. Now, while youre in there Clutch, AOS, water pump, etc... core no good so $$$$$$ I hope I am wrong and this is one of many toys and he is flush with cash.

not being harsh? lmao. you're kicking him while he's down. very harsh. the last **** i want to hear after finding out my motor is gone is "worst car ever" "I dont feel sorry for the guy" . everyone here has already mentioned the options. it's going to be $10k+ no matter what. ​

Come on man. You buy a 80k mi car with 29 modes of known failure. You dont mention PPI. He is an adult, I assume. Sympathy? He didnt loose a child. But, I digress. Moving on. You are correct. 10k plus.

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exactly what I said to myself after reading your post. ​​​​

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So I am reading this correct, you have a loan or are making payments on a 14 year old car sports car? That being said you now have a nice roller. Tough call here for sure and in your shoes I don't really know what I would do. I would never finance a toy that had no warranty which could leave me making a payment on something sitting in my driveway. Depending on your financial situation, the condition of the car, and how much you love it is how you will need to move forward. How mechanically inclined are you? Enough to re & re the engine?

So sorry to hear OP, bad situation no matter how you look at it. Happened to me a little more than a year ago-not exactly the same circumstance but still. I went with a Vertex rebuilt(my core was good) but it was not cheap. Considered selling as a roller but figured I couldn't replace the car for less money. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

So much hate for financing. I took a 3% loan. At the time, it was that or liquidate some stocks and I didn't feel like doing that. The stock has yielded more than 3%, so I figure I'm ahead. There are legitimate reasons for financing. Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but who knows.

Toys shouldn't be financed, that's my opinion of course.

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Id would suggest doing more homework on vertex.

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Hardback - Agreed. I haven't read that much about them in here - a mention every now and again, but nothing like with Jake's shop. I believe there is unanimous agreement that Jake's work is excellent. The problem is the cost and secondarily the wait. But if Vertex can do a quality rebuild that puts a car back on the road right away for around $12k or $13k without any DIY involved, that's a viable option to spending $25k with Jake. Not saying it is a better value than Jake (a topic for a different thread). But, is Vertex a legit rebuilder? Frankly, I wouldn't use Martin (I think he's going by MB Motorsports now) just because of his antics here in this board. However, I know some people have been pleased with his rebuilds. But, as for Vertex, I haven't heard much. Chris (C4911) used Vertex, so it would be good to hear his input. I would like to see others who've used Vertex chime in. And, FWIW, I don't have a dog in the fight, being a former NA 996 owner. Someday, I think it is likely I will own another NA 996 as my '99 C4 aero made me a believer that they are fantastic cars. But, at the moment, I don't have any agenda for or against any rebuilder.

KC I know 2 people that had a poor experience. One being a family member and the other an out of town RL 996 buyer. My question would be who performs the rebuilds? In house or out? My feeling is that some of the ads you see in magazines are misleading. Just because a company offers rebuilt engines doesn't mean they perform the rebuild in house. I paid under 15k for my 3.8 rebuild so I know its possible to find competitive pricing. OP do your homework.

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agreed. Ill never understand how people can justify doing it.

fvcking self-righteous old farts represent! I remember when you had to pay cash for your HOUSE! Argfh, people these days. The guy took a loan. His car blew up. Don't be a fvcking a55hole, ok? Buncha jackasses all up in this thread.

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Same here.

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It's quite easy actually. I have a home in metropolitan CA. A $10K loan is a rounding error next to the mountain of debt that is my mortgage and very easily ignored. Just ask the my 7-11 cashier that bought a half million dollar home a while back off stated income. What's hard is refraining from buying a brand new Porsche when I sell my home in a month instead of throwing at a even bigger pile of debt for a new home. Yay CA!

I have almost paid my 996 off! $2,800 left to go....college tuition keep getting in the damn way! I am totally rich, it was just my choice to buy the cheapest 911 out there, a 99, just cause I wanted people to make fun of the headlights, or if I post here, the headlight covers.

OP, read this thread (if you have a bunch of time). It will outline all of your options. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...today-and.html

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I'm tempted to sell the house and buy 8 on the same street in Ohio and rent 7 of them. But, Ohio...

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Oh that's ok. Over-leveraging your book is ok if it's done with 'investments'. It's only when you take a loan worth a few paychecks to snag a car that you fall into grave financial danger. Signed, Old Farts of Rennlist NOW GET OFF MY LAWN WITH YOUR AUTO LIENS!

So what all needs replacing?

FWIW I have driven my 4S about 7K miles on the rebuilt engine I bought from Vertex without any problems. I don't know details about the rebuild except they use their own solution to the IMS issue and with purchase you get a year warranty or 12,000 miles.

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Do you mind sharing the cost? The engine, installation, and core charge and the extent of the damage your old engine had.

Not really comfortable posting numbers but if OP wants to pm me I would share more info....

To the OP: by now, you should have noticed that this forum contains some folks with, shall I say, "strong" opinions (think sharks smelling blood in the water). That said, there is a wealth of good information here. Was it me, I'd rebuild the origional motor, if it's salvageable. My reasoning is that when you are done, you know that you have a proven commodity. The failure modes of this motor are well known, with proven fixes that can be applied. My engine cratered after three years of ownership. I rebuilt it myself for a cost north of 8k (quit counting after that). I'm comfortable with this motor now, after the LNE IMSB fix, along with the other improvements made. Now if only I can figure out that vibration at 3k rpm while decelerating...

I agree with you and AWD. It sucks what happened to the guy but at least he's come to a good place to find out his options. He just has to ignore the arrogant ***** who thinks somebody give a f@ck whether they are sympathetic or not.

Funny.

Does anyone think its odd that no details; name of dealership that sold car? No PPI info? No Indy name that confirmed IMS toast?

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How quickly old farts forget the housing bust in 08/09. Overleveraging in real estate can sink you pretty fast and a lot harder than a little car. The assumption of is is that houses will increase in value but there is no guarantee of that. On the other hand the 996 is guaranteed to increase in value over time! Yes!! -that was a joke of course...

Since we are taking a tangent in finances, I will throw my two cents in. I paid cash for my car using part of my annual bonus, which was pretty good this year. The primary reason was that you can't get traditional low interest rate financing on a car that's more than about 8 years old. Since I haven't quite paid my house off, I owe money on a piece of rental property I purchased last year, and I have some other miscellaneous debt, I think of it as financing my 911 at the highest interest rate I currently pay. Unless you are completely debt free, then you are paying some interest on your car, even if you paid cash for it. If you are debt free then you have to consider the operation and maintenance costs on your car, and any potential loss associated with not investing the money spent on your car. Then again, I can think of two people off the top of my head who died self made millionaires, but should have spent some of that money enjoying life. If otterteeth financed his 911, he probably owes more than it is worth right now. A tough spot to be in if you need to come up with another 10k+ to fix it. Walking away from it will ruin his credit for years. If he sells it as a roller, he will probably have to come up with cash to pay the balance of the loan. He might just end up making payments on a car he can't drive until he can save up the money to fix it. I know at least one person who made years of payments on an uninsured car that burned up in a fire.

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It's pretty normal here. Lots of random, lightly detailed accounts related to topics that generate a lot of churn. Could be Rennlist interns driving page views for all I know. "He just has to ignore the arrogant ***** who thinks somebody give a f@ck whether they are sympathetic or not." ^^sense, this statement does make not so much conjugation.

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Who said this was a toy? A Porsche 911 is a legitimate daily driver. I'm pretty sure that's what it was built for!

Sorry to hear of the OP's situation. Definitely a bummer in all respects. If it were me, I'd sell it as a roller, lick my wounds, and work hard to settle my debts. When you're money ahead and can comfortably buy a car with cash, go for it. If you're like me, you'll sleep much better at night. I waited until I was 71 to buy my 2002 Cab. If it blew up I'd be sad, but I'd also have no financial worries if I had to total it. Mine did have the IMS and RMS replaced as preventative M/X back around 47,000 miles. Other than an occasional broken power window, zero other problems as I just flipped 67,000 miles. Bill

photo183.jpg

I feel pretty bad for the OP. I'm glad my DD and toy cars are not the same automobiles. I do this for a reason. I paid cash for my 996, but I have one toy car I financed (which is almost paid off too). You can hobby any way you like. Honestly, if this were my car, I would pull the engine myself and send it to one of the legitimate Porsche engine rebuilders for a diagnostic teardown. Until then, this is all just speculation based on too little information. When engines go things can be bad, really bad, or a total loss. Being in autos, racing and this hobby all my life I've seen a wide range. Best one ever (when I was in the Navy and still did auto jobs on the side), I had a guy drive his Jeep Cherokee to me and tell me he though it had a rod knock. Well I crawled under (I was much thinner then and Jeeps sit up high), and reached up and pulled of a piece of the block with the rod sticking out of the side. I then told him it definitely has a rod knock along with all sorts of damage. That was a full replacement with a used engine for this project due to budget. I've also seen engines that appeared to be destroyed that had nothing more than blown gaskets. I know these cars are prone to eating this bearing, but unless you are like Hoovie and keep starting and driving it, it really might not be so awful. Only way to find out is a diagnostic teardown. You can likely do that yourself (if mechanically inclined) and post the pictures here and get all the answers needed.

Please tell us... 1. The seller's license tag wasn't from Texas and it said "UNFAIR" 2. The seller claimed to be the DIY king of the Porsche 996 3. Loves the alias "KrazyK" Lame jokes aside, really sorry for your loss. I'm sure you feel completely robbed and gutted at the moment. These are bunch great guys here on Rennlist that will help you out of this mess. I've learned so much and had fun too, but unfortunately, I've read many stories like yours. Sucks a big one!

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You throw one more insult my way and I'll... I'll... covfefe

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covfefe!

adapted from Music Man's "Shipoopi": Well, a woman who'll kiss on the very first date Is usually a hussy. And a woman who'll kiss on the second time out Is anything but fussy. But a woman who waits 'til the third time around, Head in the clouds, feet on the ground! She's the girl he's glad he's found--she's his Covfefe, Covfefe, Covfefe... Covfefe!!!!

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Rebuild all the way

Sorry about your car, hope you get it sorted soon.

So.... If you own the car, and its paid off completely.... Sell the car to your shop that will do the repairs... They register the vehicle to themselves, and source a title in their name.... Let them repair it... Then you buy the car back from them, and finance the purchase of the car, including the cost of the engine repair as part of the purchase price... You have then just financed the engine rebuild... It takes a twisted brain to think of that one. It works. I speak from experience.

^^^ Ha! Assuming you can find a shop willing to do this, that's pretty clever!

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OP hasn't been back for a while. You're probably right.....The OP probably likes throwing turds in the punchbowl and walking away. Then he gets to sit back and watch the antics. He did hit the hot buttons: IMS No PPI Finance an old car I initially defended him as being real....guess I was wrong

If youre a P car guy on Pelican you know about 996 and IMS and PPI. If he got taken but a Used car guy post the dealership name. Help us out; how was the failure diagnosed? Short on details high on drama. Just say-in.

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Could work. The only catch is there will be a limitation on how much can be borrowed against the car, so he may have to come up with a substantial down payment.

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That's what the money from the sale to the shop is for.

I appreciate the useful comments, everyone. I'm going to rebuild. The dealer that sold it to me is Nelson Mazda https://www.nelsonmazda.com/antioch . Just so you know I didn't "throw a turd in the punchbowl". I don't see what would be the use in doing that.

Thanks for chiming back in and good luck on the rebuild!

PPI prior to purchase? Indy that did the diagnoses? This might be helpful to others.

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So, a Mazda dealer is doing the rebuild?? Or you traded the 996 in for a Mazda?

A place called Fifth Gear Automotive in Hermitage TN - http://www.5thgearautomotiverepair.com/ - did the diagnosis after the failure. The Mazda dealer had it towed there after I approached them about helping out with the repair (they are not helping - in case anyone is wondering). A few weeks before I bought it, Fifth Gear changed the oil, replaced the starter, and changed the oil/air separator. They are not going to do the rebuild. I'm having it towed back to my house in the next few days. I will probably do the rebuild/install myself unless I can find a reasonably priced shop to do it. I'm doing a cost estimate now for all the different options including rebuild, purchase a rebuilt 996, or replace with a LS series engine. EDIT: - Having issues with the facebook page of Fifth Gear Automotive. If you are interested in them do a search on Facebook.

That sounds better... You'll have to get it apart and evaluated, measured up before you can make a determination of true costs that you'll be facing. With this failure collateral damages are what cost, and are hard to determine.

Essentially the money is gone regardless.... Sell it as a roller, big loss. Have a quality engine installed, ~$20K+ and the total value of the car post repair will be about the same as the cost of the engine package (see BAT for recent example). Have a 'budget' engine installed, cost less but worth less, plus potential quality issues? LS engine, labor of love and big hole to throw money into, endless minor issues to resolve. Very limited future resale value. Buy a Vette instead. Rebuild yourself... Not a bad solution if you really have the time, skills, tools and parts access to do this rebuild, but not exactly like rebuilding a chevy 350. And again, future value is compromised. eg: no way I'm taking a chance on a 996 with an diy-owner-rebuilt engine. Unless the car is really mint and something you see yourself keeping for a long time if repaired, selling it as a roller or parting it out might be the quickest and most painless way to take your medicine. Sorry for your misfortune. Unfortunately one of the reasons 996's are such fantastic sports car bargains for 97% of owners is because 3% draw the short straw... Mind if I ask the question we are all wondering, what did you pay for it?

https://rennlist.com/forums/parts-ma...65k-miles.html

1). Pull your engine and have it diagnosed properly. 2). If cheap enough, fix yours. 3). If too much buy the used one for sale and do the IMSB, rear main seal, aos, tune up parts, new clutch and install and enjoy. 4). Forget the LS swap unless you can weld, fabricate and diagnose full auto electronics. 5). The only feasible engine swap is if you possess those skills. Otherwise take whatever cost the internet says and double it and add 20% to that and then you are being realistic. You can get an ls powered Miata turn jet for $35k plus the price of a Miata done for you. That's a reasonable price if you are paying for the swap and parts in a 996 too.

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I wonder why this hasn't sold. Great price! Needs more info posted about the source, though.

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So no PPI done prior to purchase?

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This could be your ticket but you need to get more details from the seller https://rennlist.com/forums/parts-ma...65k-miles.html He seems motivated to sell...

No legal recourse, lemon law for used cars? Did you buy "as is"? https://www.carlemon.com/lemon/tn_law.html https://www.carlemon.com/

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You would need the money from the shop to help pay off the first note. I think we are getting into some corporate America financing here!

I've contacted a couple of attorney's (including the one on the lemonlaw.com site) and there's no legal recourse. I bought it as-is.

Not sure if this was already posted, but there is a 3.6 posted in the for sale section for $6500. My want to talk to them about the history on the engine. Probably the least expensive option if the engine is in good shape. Of course, it is always a crap shoot buying a used engine.

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Tough lesson, did you have a PPI done before purchase?

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Heck, I forgot about that part. Otterteeth, have you added yourself to the IMSB poll?

Let's face it, a PPI would not have avoided this.

If you have time on your side, then I say take Jakes next engine class. Go ahead pull the motor, tear it down, get a feel for how bad it is. Once you are in class it will all start to click really fast, and will give you comfort level at getting it back together right. I was in his last class, I cannot express how positive an experience it was. Jake, Tony, and Charles have set up a learning experience that I could not find a critique for the post class satisfaction survey. The amount of knowledge you learn in the actual class and between the lines during casual conversation is tremendous.

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We know the out come on no PPI. PPI on a high miles 996.2 with apparently no service records bought from a non P car dealer wouldnt help. Dropping the sump plate, checking cam timing and fault code history may have alerted the buyer.

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A worthless, non- invasive PPI would not have detected this, unless someone got lucky. An invasive PPI more than likely would have, as long as the inspector wasn't asleep during the procedure, and knew what he was looking at. When you know what the warning signs are, and where you normally find them, it's a different story. I generally find "downers" in less than 20 minutes. The last 3 PPI's I did we didn't even charge for, aince we found problems immediately that downed the car. That's why I stopped offering them.

Yep. I can agree on the worthless PPI (essentially that's what I got from Fifth Gear). I've decided to hand it over to Jake Raby to do his magic. I'm positive that it's in good hands.

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Besides dropping sump plate, inspecting oil filter and looking at cam deviation what do you call invasive?

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Fifth Gear prep car for sale. From your writings here they did not perform a PPI.

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Nope. What is that?

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Very very good, sir. I'm printing this out and putting in my car folder for a rainy day. Thank you.

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The flaw is that you have to pay sales tax again. So it is a very expensive way of financing.

Why can't the repair shop just draw up a financial payment deal for the repair instead of going thru all the trouble of selling and buying back?

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In your possession you now have a printed document that explains how you should sell your car to a dealership and then buy it back? And you are storing it with the other records for cars that you typically buy, hold briefly, and then resell, sometimes to the same dealership? Glad you committed that one to paper, I'd hate for you to forget the "trick." *edit* Wait, John NEVER drives in the rain.

My head is swimming... Maybe because this fish story is just that.

Hey, I am local to you. I live just south of nashville and was just elbow deep in my 996. Feel free to reach out if you need anything locally. I know a few local places you might not know about to do the work...