What do you think of this C4S I might buy?

Hey fellas, this is my first post here but I have been reading and studying up for a while. I have the Porsche itch and there is only one cure! So please any and all tell me what you think of this one. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...12403983&Log=0 The IMS has been replaced, it is black on black which is exactly what I want, it's local, manual low miles at 35,300 and looks amazing to me. Full disclosure, I will have to finance part it. I have the income but just not the full amount to put down at once. I just thought I would mention that in case anyone had either done the same thing or had a word of caution. There is this one that is also local and seems great too and less money. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...79898367&Log=0 My buddy who has a 1980 SC, says don't buy this until I have driven his air cooled. The C4S just looks so damn good with that wide back end. Thanks guys!

For 5k more your in solid turbo country...now that's a no brainier.

Maybe my info is out of date but I think low mileage Turbos are trading closer to $10k+ more than that C4S. I don't think the price is bad although I'd probably try to negotiate down a bit, if possible. You should also take your friend's SC for a ride. It'll solidify just how much better the 996 is in every way. It's faster, better handling and far more comfortable. Don't get me wrong though. I love the water cooled models. I still prowl the classifieds for 993s but, aesthetics aside (being a very subjective matter), 993s still pale in comparison against the 996 when it comes to...well...everything. -Eric

Looks Good. Get a PPI. I just purchased a 03 with 10k miles. It needs the IMS/RMS but was negotiated in price. I paid slightly more, as mileage is low. Price for this one seems in sweet spot

seems like a lot to me. If your already financing some of that, then I would just finance more and get the turbo.

"My buddy who has a 1980 SC, says don't buy this until I have driven his air cooled." While I totally get the retro sentiment behind the interest in the air cooled cars, when it comes to drivability/performance/comfort, there's very little comparison between the ac and wc cars... "You should also take your friend's SC for a ride. It'll solidify just how much better the 996 is in every way. It's faster, better handling and far more comfortable." ^This^ ! The air cooled cars are really all about nostalgic aesthetics (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

I'd think you could deal on that, a little. Respectfully remind you that 'borrowing 5 more for a turbo' won't help with the increased operating costs associated with that car: it's quite possible that a mere C4S is as much performance car as you'll often need, and that the additional costs (purchase/operation) won't be easily amortized. Do drive your friend's SC. They're charming. But $32,500 will not buy you a sub-40k mile, 5-seconds to 60, 177mph 911SC with real HVAC, 21st century anti-corrosion measures, and original paint in very, very good condition. So, have a clear sense of whether it's an apple or an orange you want to spend (ahem) your money on. 996 represents a superb value and, if properly maintained, stands to retain that value well. A C4S in triple black (seems not that common to me), with low mileage and the panic button replaced? Just in case we only live once....

Those prices are to high. $36,500? Yea, I'm moving up to a turbo at that price point. You should drive your friends 1980 SC so you can see how slow it is!! Do a proper PPI (pre-purchase inspection), don't cheap out on this step!!! You must also take it to a PORSCHE enthusiast, not just some mechanic around the corner, the individual doing the PPI should service Porsche exclusively or German cars only. Good luck with the search, wait for the right car.

That's a good price. Low mile super clean C4S are getting very hard to find. Getting one optioned out the way you like in the right color is even harder. If it has the factory Perfomance Exhaust, it will sound increadable and not a cheap option. Not everyone wants a turbo (including me). A normally aspirated car is more responsive. A C4S will give you all the running gear and looks of a Turbo without the turbo lag. Considering all 911s are Turbos these days (because of smog), a normally aspirated 911 is a dieing breed. A old 911SC is a completely different animal. It will feel dog slow compared to the C4S. It's a antique and needs to be considered as such. The azz lookes wider and squats lower without a fixed tail. Are you a azz man or not??? C4s%20Fat%20rear%20low%20net.jpg

You all have great ideas, thank you. I don't think I want an antique. Now I just need to get my wife on board and find a better garage as mine is fairly small. It is a little extravagant but these cars also might tick up in price in the next few years and then I might kick myself. And I don't think I want a Turbo, hard to say why but it seems like too much car for what I am going to use it for. It is a big purchase for a young fella.

There are a lot of people looking for $15K 911s who want to believe even the nicest 996es should be $20K cars. I still say, good luck with those $15K cars. Consider that there's another active thread right now where folks are telling a current C4S owner they could reasonably expect to get $25K for their 110K mile car. With that in mind, knowing that values plummet precipitously at 100k miles, ask yourself if $35K seems reasonable for a 35K mi car? While I would try to push the seller down a bit, I don't think their asking price is crazy...and, again, show me a 35K mile '04 Turbo in excellent condition that's selling at $40K. I have no doubt you'll find cars out there in that range with 100k miles on them but low mileage examples are generally listed $45-50K+. -Eric

My $0.02, also living in Colorado: 1. It looks great (actually both do) but the prices seem on the high end. That being said there are less and less of these with low-ish miles around and neither seems to need anything. 2. The black one will see rockchips and other marks with the way we do road maintenance here, it won't be avoidable if you drive it every day (which you can and should, just get a set of good snow tires in the winter), what's the point otherwise. This won't help if you ever decide to re-sell it and it won't help your frame of mind if you are the **** type that obsesses over perfect paint. 3. I was thrilled with my C2's performance when I got it and then got used to it. It's still great and a blast to drive but when I take it to lower elevations (like CA) I'm reminded of how much power you lose up here. That's the real advantage of a Turbo, HOWEVER a turbo in similar condition with similar mileage is more realistically a $50k car. The days of really good $40k Turbo's being semi-plentiful is over (in my opinion). Don't buy a ratty Turbo over a perfect C4S. The cars being available locally is nice too, no cost to check them out for yourself. 4. Check them both out and drive both, there is no reason why the 62k mile one necessarily is any worse than the 35k one. If one will budge on the price a bit more than the other and you like them both, then there's your answer assuming the PPI checks out. 5. If winter is any concern or a driver towards the C4S, note that there is NO real reason to not consider a 2WD 996, they do great in the snow with good tires and the AWD in the C4S and Turbo isn't that much (if any) of an advantage. (Note that I am a believer in AWD in general around here, long time Quattro owner etc. and not one of those people that is convinced it's unnecessary.) But if the main thing you like is the widebody then this is the way to go. Otherwise it seems you could get into a great C2 outright without financing which is a great feeling. And it's the fastest/quickest model in the NA range. 6. Once you get it, toss the keys to your boss and let him drive a modern (if a 17year old design can be called modern) Porsche. He won't enjoy his own drive home as much that evening afterward. A 911SC is a great and fun car and I'd happily look at one in my garage every day. However, a 996 is a more great and more fun can that can be enjoyed every day of the year without any compromises.

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I think I resemble that remark. I bought a red aero coupe with sport pkg and 82k miles for $16k off CL. The only trouble I've had is the lack of cup holders, and that black foam from the air plenum blowing out through the vents. Now I'm starting to have the dreaded slow hot start Y cable, but it's not a deal breaker by any means. Sure, there are $15k 911s with plenty of problems, but there are also cars in that price range that are likely in decent if not flawless shape. I didn't expect concours for my $$, but it's a happy enough transaction. My only advice is shop more. Don't get in a rush.

C4S's are sexy. But you pay a price and they don't perform as well as C2. If you plan on tracking it much I would definitely recommend looking at an MK I C2. They are amazing. In the 996 world, newer gets you more comfort but doesn't increase performance or driving experience. And Turbos are for egos and drag racers. You get used to the extra torque in them just like any other car and then you've paid extra money for little gain. If you are set on a C4S I highly recommend the one listed on RL by groovzilla. Because it has passed a 100k it will have almost no depreciation as you rack up miles on it and it's a known car listed by a respected RL member. That is huge.

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??? The C4S has the Turbo upgraded suspension, wheels, tires, brakes and larger front air intakes over the base 996s. The ride is significantly different than a base 996.

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is also heavier and as we have seen in the other threads - lose about 20hp, 10trq with the AWD setup.

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But then the awd can be pushed harder in the corners and is more forgiving to drivers errors. I have been down this road before with other performance rwd and awd like 930,S4 stage 3,RS4's to M3s. I have found the awd is always easier and has faster lap times for me. You can push a C4S to scary limits. It's awd is extremely low intrusive and feels like a rwd untill you need it. I would say most won't have the nerve to push it to its very edge of handling. This is coming from a guy that tracked a modded 930 for years and that car was fun and terrifying with only the difference of a 1% drivers error. The biggest down fall I have found with performance awd is the tires you go through.

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Yes, and all of that is needed to offset the extra 330+ lbs. (3240lbs vs the '99's 2910lbs based on published curb weights.). According to PCA's SPEC996 racing class, the extra 20 HP of the MK IIs is offset by 180lbs. So the C4S would need to lose 130lbs to have equivalent power performance. The AWD is another limiting factor for any kind of track duty. Vandersmith has a great thread about how to shave 2 secs off of lap times and improve your driving experience by converting a C4S to RWD. As for the suspension, for daily driving the '99 C2 suspension is pretty nice but for any type of AutoX or DE, I don't think it's on par with the C4S and is the first thing I would upgrade. But for looks and comfort, the C4S is definitely the way to go IMO.

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Easier and safer. But not near as rewarding nor as quick. And by rewarding, I mean when you make a mistake, the car let's you know instead of correcting it for you. And when you get it right, it's about the same feeling as making fresh tracks on a snowboard in 14" of fresh powder.

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I agree. When you get into full blown track animals, then the sky is the limits to any 911. I was generally referring the cars as stock turn key cars with weekend track duties. I did the semi pro track 911 and I can't/won't afford to do it again. It's a massive money pit even when everything is running well. I went though so many sets of tires in one year. The C4S gives me enough of that track feel in a real world performance car without trying to kill me when conditions are not 100% ideal.

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!!!!

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The benefits of AWD are not limited to the winter. Drivetrain loss aside, there have been reviews of the C4S that have shown that while it may be slower than a C2 in a straight line, it is faster around a track. Part of driving fast is braking. Another part is getting the power down to the road. The C4S has the ability to do that better, yes, at the cost of weight. At the end of the day though, we're talking about fractions of a second and preference will largely depend on what the buyer wants. Are they buying it primarily tool around town and maybe (or maybe not) take it on a track or autocross? Will it be a track dedicated car? do they want a garage queen that just looks good? All of those questions (and more) will drive potential buyers in different directions. -Eric

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I have absolutely seen this to be true from my experience. I am a pretty good driver in a rwd 911 around the track but I acknowledge it takes less skill to do the same thing in a awd 911. Put the same driver in either car I am always slightl faster in a awd car in ideal track conditions. Get anything less than ideal track conditions and the difference between rwd and awd in the 911 separate themself quite a bit more. Where the Porsche awd shines in the 996 is that it is less intrusive than other manufactures. You can drive it crazy fast without feeling the negative feel of other awd systems like in a performance Audi.

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Maybe within the same model year, not sure, but I'll put my money on a stock '99 C2 over a stock C4s on the track any day. There is a reason the Gt3 is a rear wheel drive NB (and naturally aspirated).

Anyways, to get back on track, the main point is to test drive both and buy the one you love the most.

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Now you're talking my language FILE0138 - YouTube

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It's all what you want your car to do. That's the beauty of the 911, it's absolutely fantastic in any form. It's like we are comparing which super model is best. There is no bad choice providing it's a 911.

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FIFY Mezger engine.

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FIFY

@slakker: "In the 996 world, newer gets you more comfort but doesn't increase performance or driving experience" Sure about that? 996.2 gets 80% new internals, a longer stroke, and improved variocam+, yielding more torque across greater bandwidth and 15hp. New fuel supply system has no return line yields cooler fuel, new exhaust reduces back pressure, new bodywork reduces lift, new reinforcements to side sills, roof frame, and floor plan improve torsional rigidity by almost 25% in the coupe. New standard 17" wheels save 8# year over year; the optional 18s (standard on C4S, I think) are 23# lighter than their predecessors, despite being an inch wider. 996.2 : Whether the diff matters or not to the individual used 911 buyer, there's definitely more to it than cupholders...

And just to be clear, I think the 99xTT's are amazing cars. But the default mind set is that it's the better car for all situations and that if you can afford one you should get it. And I don't think this is correct. They are great daily drivers, very comfortable, and their power is pretty much wasted on the street. On a road track, a lighter NA RWD 911 is going to be more fun for me. The place where the turbo really shines is in the quarter mile and for getting looks and compliments since they are beautiful and flashy. So just making a counter point to a wide spread assumption, not disrespecting the bigger brother.

I'd get the turbo just to get away from the sphincter loosening IMS problem M96 engine. Heck, if it weren't so costly, I'd be dropping the Chebby V8 in mine.

If you're not going to be racing where 1/10ths of a second matter - buy the one you like best. C4S is a little slower but have some great styling. Turbos are awesome too and so are C2s. Just personal preference of what YOU want to get in and drive. The argument to get a turbo to avoid IMS problems holds less water now that there is the IMS Solution. Ultimately if you ask 100 people you'll get 100 opinions. The only one that matters in this case is yours - buy what you like best and enjoy it.

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The increased HP barely compensates for the increased weight. And the longer stroke was an accounting move to compensate for the weight. Instead of lengthening the rod to match and maintain the ratio, they actually shortened the rod so they could squeeze it in the same block. Look, both are amazing cars and this debate has been hashed through many times. I like that my '99 has an actual cable going to the throttle, that it has no traction control, that it's really light and nimble, that it has all of the feel of the air cooled Porsches but with proper power to match. Once again, I'm not ******* the newer ones. It's just that everyone assumes that newer is better and that's not necessarily the case. A lot of the improvements over the last 17 years have been to make them more comfortable, safer, fuel efficient, and technologically advanced. All of this detracts from the experience of driving the car for me personally. Have you ever ridden or driven a newish GT3 on the track? They are amazing works of technology! They manage your braking, your acceleration, your up/downshifts, and traction all with a computer making 1000's of decisions a second. All you have to do is focus on the line and how fast you want go. Now this is a bit of an exaggeration as you can still get in trouble but you can also turn out mind numbing times with relatively little experience. This has the performance I want, but there is no way I would sacrifice actually driving my car to get it. I would rather explore the limits of physics and geometry than try to anticipate what my computer is going to do so I can react accordingly. You know how a GT3 driver tells if they are relying on the nannies too much? The back brake pads wear faster than the front. That's it. It does so much for you and you don't even know it's doing it. You come away thinking you are rockstar. Three sessions on an unfamiliar track with stock suspension Tues night let me know exactly where I was. When I drove it within its limits, I was able to lay down nice little consistent lap times. When I tried to push a little further I found my @ss end trying to beat my nose to the finish line. No false confidence to be gained there. Just a burning desire for more seat time and continued improvement.

Additional weight comparing 996.1 C2 and 996.2 C2? I totally agree with your underlying premise (if I understand it): the best 911 for any individual is, um, the best 911 for that individual . But I think the .2 has a nice suite of small performance advantages over the .1, apples-to-apples. My 996.2 with an S bumper, PSE, advanced technik, 18" sport classic II, and 4-cow interior is the ultimate 911! (for me, and my slightly distorted budget priorities) No ******* of any 911s perceived. I like and learn a lot from your posts!

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Lol man, you push this $hit all the time. Not knocking on you but just funny that you push this sales pitch so hard on peeps, especially the new ones. You're preaching to the choir so I'm also in agreement, just think it's funny.

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night and day difference in porsche 996 T and Porsche 996 NA on a race track. I've got to drive both and I would trade my 4.0 NA Porsche any day for a turbo. I would walk my NA Porsche with a turbo one.

If planning to resell the car soon, then worry about mileage. If you are planning to keep it for the duration, then I'd worry less about mileage getting a really good runner with documented service history. Personally, I think the $36k car is way too high based on what else is out there, especially if you are willing to be a little bit patient. Worth it? Probably, but compared to what else is out there in the 996 realm, those are pretty $tout. When you're sitting in the car driving it, you can't see what it looks like anyway... so there's that... If aesthetics are the primary driving force behind why you want a 996 4S and you are willing to spend that amount, maybe even consider a 997. That way, you get away from the gawd-awful looking boxster headlights and get the more sought after and timeless looking ovals headlights. (only part of my car I don't like, and I'm going to do something about it). Another consideration in the "looks" department is a C2 or C4 cabrio with hard top option... A neighbor has a dark blue '99 cab (no hard top) and when he saw I got my 2000 Cab, he came over with his and we had the two cars parked side by side and were comparing options and such. He had his top down, and I had the hard top on mine. At one point he got quiet for a moment and then made the comment that my car looked wider than his, and that it was probably because of the hard top on mine. After closer look, my car did seem wider. And when he put his top up, it was very noticeable. It's like the cabrio with the hard top has lines that make it look like a "mini wide body." LOL! I should have taken photos. Best case scenario you save yourself $15-$20k difference and lose 0% of the driving experience in the process. If you do plan to track the car regularly, I'd prob stick to getting a coupe though. For the prices I've been tracking for early 996's, $36k could easily buy you two decent mk1's. You could get a cabrio with a hard top and tiptronic (for looks and daily driver duties) and take your time finding a high miles coupe with a manual tranny to put in a roll cage, sports seats and to flog at the track. Yes, it's two cars to maintain, but hey! You'll always have a backup.

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Lol. That's probably fair. I'll own that one. Not sure if it's to debunk the myths of just to rationalize my own decisions but the passion is definitely there. I will say that I'm in the camp that hopes they stay cheap and easily replaceable. I think we are safe on this one for awhile.

I've driven that car, last year when I was looking. He wanted over $40k last year. The front end, being black, doesn't show well at all. That said, I can't remember much else about it, the interior was decent. I passed mostly because of the price and less due to the wear and tear on front end. If you are interested in checking out the 4S I ended up with, DM me. Think we have mutual friends/acquaintances in the Boulder/Denver area.

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Ok for starters, I too appreciate your inputs, story sharing on the track car, etc. Good stuff and it's obvious that we both care more about the experience than the spec X, Y, or Z that some people can be myopic about. A pointed question though.. my 03 C2 currently is equipped with: - IPD plenum and intake (which obviously bumps it to 350hp) - Sways front & rear (H&R, minimum +10hp so 360hp now) - no tune yet but likely to get it done at some point soon (any recommendations here appreciated) - 2959lb curb weight / ~360 rear end hp - RWD, no PSM, no heated seats, full leather, navigation or really any of the fancy stuff now taking this very base 996.2 with a couple fun mods in place, how does a 996.1 with comparable updates measure up? Both lack Forsche swerve management, heavy AWD system, etc. My suspicion is that they'll be so close you might not be able to tell on a track, both in terms of acceleration and handling ability. Do you more or less agree or am I missing something? I know the throttle system is different, but the steering feel, acceleration and handling should be nearly identical. P.S. Sorry to OP for thread drift. Hopefully it doesn't detract too much from the task at hand: Big Booty PCars

You guys are awesome, it has given me a lot think about. Maybe that blue one if the guy writes back. Gwatts I will give you a dm.

^^^ haha. You need more stickers to reach your true power potential. The answer to your question is yes. An '03 C2 won the PCA SP996 championship last year with an identical configuration to all the others except that it was carrying 180lbs more than the 99-01s. Everything from the air intake to the exhaust header, with the exception of an under drive pulley, is stock. Suspension has upgraded coilovers, GT3 LCA, GT3 sways, and adjustable rear toe links. Brakes are stock with choice of pads. The rest is just stripped chassis and safe trip. At this point it becomes all about the driver. FYI, the fastest car in the advanced group last time I was at Motorsports Ranch, in a field including multiple GT3s, was an '00 SP996.

Good stuff slakker, thanks. It's funny because every time you talk about the no-tutu optioned n/a experience I think "this guy stole my car!"

Just a price point for you as you muddle on your decision. Two yrs ago bought a 2004 4S at retail, about 35K miles, for about $43K, incl warranty to 72 mos/100K miles. Manual cab with aftermarket exhaust/wheels. Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

If you can jump to $40k for a turbo, do it. The powerplant transforms the car. After driving back to back between an '84 coupe and '99 coupe, I went with the 99. This was before the bubble and while I wish I would have bought the '84 from a flip standpoint, the 996 was a better car to drive.

I just recently went through this process. The lowest rates I could find were with Chase (assuming you have good credit). When financing, think about your initial service costs - though yours looks like it's good to go. I was looking at RMS, IMSB, and water pump when I purchased mine. The clutch and flywheel were an unexpected delight. This is a where a good PPI will be key, you'll get an idea of the the service items and costs you're going to be incurring upfront - nothing is cheap on a Porsche! These items should also be negotiating items when purchasing the car. Speaking of which - if you look on Ebay, you can pull up the final price on prior sales. What everyone is asking for isn't necessarily what they're selling for. BringaTrailer.com also lists prior sales, but I hear cars on that site generally sell for a bit of a premium - could be because the cars are nicer or because of their bidding rules (your call). Everyone here has more experience with a Porsche than I do. This was my first Porsche, so maybe you're in the same boat I am. If it is your first, it'll probably be more than enough regardless of the model. So just buy the one you want - and a C4S does look very sweet. For context, I have a C2 cab, so probably the slowest and worst handling of the bunch. But it's more than I need on the street by a fat margin. By the time I've gotten to 4K in 2nd gear, I'm usually 10+ car lengths in front of the nearest car. When hitting the hairpins, the car has more grip than my right foot is willing to ask for. BTW, this is the fastest car I've driven, but I'm not a stranger to speed - I have sportbikes and used to track them semi regularly. One thing, the car is a lot rougher than what I imagined. My test drive route was pretty smooth - I suggest you drive it over varied road conditions to emulate real life. I don't mind so much because I'll take performance and function over comfort any day, but everyone has their preferences. Good luck!

^ A lot of good info and advice from mrjonger

Yall are super helpful. Thank you mrjonger too, I am in a similar spot that you were I think. I am thinking a bit harder and not rushing it thanks to your guys advice. The black one I posted does seem like a lot. I saw this one that is also near by http://www.myhighlineauto.com/2004_P...256029291.veh# But I do not see anything in the ad about a clean Carfax. I am calling them tomorrow. Anyone seen this one before? Cars n Coffee is this weekend and I'll talk to some folks there. Maybe I will get some ideas on prices ect.

$36k is not bad but you could defiantly negotiate a reduction of few thousand on that price. As far as choosing the 4S over a 2S... I have an 08 4S and I love it. It's wide, it's fast, and 4wd is awesome for street use. But sorry... no burnouts! The new IMS will help you sleep better too. Looks like it has a few mods which might be a good thing. PPI is a must. If you're really set on this car have the oil changed and ask the tech to pull apart the filter. He'll know what to look for. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

See what you guys are teaching me? This help is huge, thank you very much. I will contribute once I am able. I am going to my time a little more. I saw this one near by also. But I dont see a Carfax on it..... hmm http://www.myhighlineauto.com/2004_P...256029291.veh#

Also, since my post didn't touch on it. C4S is a great car and if you go that route you will be quite happy. But at that price point, the turbo is worth taking for a test drive.

To think of it in a different way, if price is similiar between lower mileage C4S and higher mileage TT, you're buying the TT not really for more power but reliability and less risk. Once you start thinking this way, it might make more sense. Power is always nice but that's only one way to think about it.

Until you blow a turbo....

[QUOTE=Sue Esponte;13501632]There are a lot of people looking for $15K 911s who want to believe even the nicest 996es should be $20K cars. I still say, good luck with those $15K cars. People are always looking for a bargain. 99 times out of 100 a $15k 911 isn't going to be a bargain. Unlike other makes of cars a Porsche 911 with a "couple" issues can get expensive in a hurry. Couldn't agree more, good luck indeed with those $15k cars.

Quotes source post: 13501632

Novice / first time 911 Porsche buyers fall into the "all should cost about the same" category. It's a rookie mistake simply because they haven't owned these type of cars enough to know the cost of ownership. "I bought my Porsche less than a Honda" means nothing simply because the Honda is and always will be $30k new car. Regardless what you pay for a beater 911, it's still was a $80k+ car with parts and servicing to match the price tag. The plus side is you have a car built to those standards and quality materials. If you want a beater and roll the dice, then you get a price break but know it comes at a cost. If you want a low mileage concourse condition that looks and drivers brand new, your gonna pay up. It's always been that way with 911's. I don't care if it's a Turbo or base 911....... Options, miles, and condition are everything and prices will reflect this. (This is coming from 28 years of owning many fine 911's as well as years of PCA concours competition) [QUOTE=porsche951;13506970]

Buying a sub-$15k 911 is a scary proposition, especially as a first timer. Cars in that price range typically have been traded in and/or gone to auction and were purchased on the even-cheaper side but without any service history. These are usually for sale by small used lot dealers or auction flippers and such. And one of the first things those guys do is get rid of all proof of previous ownership, including valuable service records. As someone who just bought a sub-$15k 911, I can tell you I went into the experience with eyes wide open knowing it was going to be a $20k plus experience. I have spent the last six months researching the issues, after following prices for the last year or so... Sometimes you're lucky and some service may show up on car fax. But, basically you don't know squat about how the car was maintained. So, once PPI is completed and you know you have a "NICE" example from the things you can easily evaluate (clean carfax, good paint/interior quality, suspension doesn't rattle, brakes/tires OK, oil is clean of metal shavings, etc) then the fun really begins. I went into my purchase with a $20k budget and a project management mindset. At minimum, a new IMSB, RMS, clutch (and in my case chain tensioners, plugs, 160 degree t-stat and water pump too). You could put AOS, pencil coils and other items on that list... Those with room and who are more handy than others can tackle some of those things themselves. In my situation, I am doing rear window regulators (mine's a cabrio) and there are also two torn panels on the drivers seat which I'm not sure If I will have them replaced by an upholsterer or by L-seat covers and try that job myself. So, when it's all said and done I'll have basically turned my "score" into a $20k+ sorted car, but I feel I've also put myself in a good position to know the exact state of the primary failure components and made the car as relatively worry-free as possible from onset. To me, that approach (when done patiently and thoroughly) is more rewarding (and fun) versus buying a higher priced used example from a premium seller like the dealer. You have then re-established the car's service history towards making it marketable as a sorted car and protecting your investment that way. And you might have even saved a few thou$and in the process (assuming your PPI and up front research was done well). Otherwise, you might as well take that $15k to vegas and put it all on red or black. Even then, the roulette wheel might hit 0 or 00.