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YOUR RESEARCHWater/Oil mix in Coolant reservoir
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but the cracked heads causing this are common
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It is important to know what the problem was but the cracked heads causing this are common.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I filed a claim against the dealer with the WA State Attorney General and nothing really came of it, the dealer said sorry and sent me a check for $100.
Leading evidence: 'but the cracked heads causing this are common' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'but the cracked heads causing this are common' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check $100' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Reported cause
In my case the problem was a crack in the 1-3 head, on the inner exhaust valve spring seat on cylinder #1.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The salesman checked with the manager that then let me test drive the car.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The shop then changed the oil, changed the #4 plug and said good luck.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
So he replaced the water pump replaced all the gaskets and I think thermostat because the car stays just under 180.
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Check $100
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Suggestion · Original poster
I filed a claim against the dealer with the WA State Attorney General and nothing really came of it, the dealer said sorry and sent me a check for $100.
Repair car, currently the dealer will have profited
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Suggestion
I think this is right even though you have owned the car for a few months , you took it back with a problem quite soon after you purchased it , giving the dealer the opportunity to put things right but they haven't and most of that $2300 warranty money will have gone on labour at full shop rate, when dealers need to pull on insurance to do a repair job it should all be at cost price with no profit involved , parts at the same price as the garage gets them and the hourly rate of the mechanic repairing your car, currently the dealer will have profited from the original sale, profited from parts used and profited on the hourly rate from the mechanic as it will be charged through as a set rate t
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Suggestion
It's good you quickly took it back to the dealer, because intermix issues on this cars can get very expensive to repair especially if it's a cracked block.
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161 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
I bought this head years ago, shortly after I had my intermix and fixed it.
Hey All,
I'll start with I just bought this a week ago. 2000 996 C2 runs and drives great, but I found what must be oil/water mix (white and sticky) in the coolant reservoir. I have checked the dipstick and the oil is perfectly fine, temp gauge stays steady at about 195, and the oil pressure runs from 1-2 at idle and up to 3-4 when driving hard. All of my gut says it's a head gasket but the motor has no other symptoms than the goo in the reservoir. This was a new buy from a dealer that I am going to talk to on Monday. I feel pretty dumb for missing it during the test drive but here I am now.
Update: Took it back to dealer, they are going through it and fixing it. I guess this is as good as I can expect from a small used car dealer?
It's good you quickly took it back to the dealer, because intermix issues on this cars can get very expensive to repair especially if it's a cracked block. My bet it's a cracked head and NOT a head gasket. The head gaskets on these car never fail. (knock on wood)
Thank goodness they took the car back. My guess is that small used car dealership doesn't know what they are up against. Second the comment of documentation of repair. If it is indeed a cracked head and they send the head to a machine shop for repair, they should have some kind of proof.
The last thing you want is they just change the coolant, send the car back to you and pray the intermix won't show up again before any goodwill time window runs out.
Proof seems completely necessary, the car is technically mine after all. I already called a lawyer and left a VM just in case this goes south. Their mechanic said he had done a head on another. I'm hoping it gets fixed, but I don't trust these guys at all or to do good work. The car was also a screaming deal, not a rebuild but under book with a few electrical issues I fixed quickly with expensive Porsche Parts. So some of this is my fault going after a cheap 2k C2 with 85k miles. Too good to be true. Any further advice on what to do with these guys is welcomed. I'm going to atleast ask for all removed parts to be kept with the car.
First of all, if they are standing behind the sale, and fixing it, there is not much you can do legally. Let's just say that if they pull the engine and replace the head gasket, there is not going to be any profit left for them. So, that seems to be a big pill for them to swallow.
Secondly, you bought a cheap car at a screaming deal and … did you do a ppi or you just drove it and paid for it? If not, due diligence did not get done on your part and you own this so don't start throwing lawyers around. It does not seem to help in these situations, at least until it is absolutely necessary. I don't think you are there yet.
Thirdly, these engines are pretty simple to fix. Any competent mechanic with the right timing tools can handle a head gasket job on a 996 engine. Drop the engine, separate the valve train and the head, install new gasket, time the engine, put it back. I'm guessing a 40 hours job for a new-to-the 996 or 20 hours for an experienced Porsche mechanic.
Last, you might still end up with a great sample for cheap. Be happy with that.
These head gaskets are MLS and NEVER fail. Since you have oil in your coolant and not also vise versa, that means your intermix in on a high oil pressure area. The most common is a crack in the head in the lifter passage, but could also be in the oil cooler, But my bet is on a cracked head..Y2K !!
Bought for 13.9k which is good but not the motor doesn�t run, good. This is my daily driver that I only drive occasionally with my commute for work, but it is my means of transportation. Having a small dealer dig into it and try to fix it as cheaply as possible.......I�m just not confident the problem with be gone when I get it back. That wasn�t a salvage price, the car should have some level of reliability from a dealer. This hopefully isn�t a 17k anchor around my wallet for a few yeArs.
I would want them to call me and have me come in and look at it when they "discover the problem". If they are an inexperienced shop when it comes to Porsches they will assume head gasket (as you did) drop the engine, replace both gaskets and reinstall. You will leave there with the same issue. In all my research on these engines I do not recall EVER seeing a head gasket itself being an issue, a cracked head is more likely.
I wish you the best, and I hope this is resolved properly. It does sound as if they want to make it right, just make sure they have the capability to do so.
If you really think this is a bad head gasket, you know nothing of the M96. OP - Head Repair info is here...
https://newsite.hamheads.com/2016/11...age-m96m979a1/
These guys are the authority when it comes to repairing/refurbishing M96 heads.
+1 on cracked head being the most likely cause.
I would not let them touch it of you aren't confident they are competent. If they do find the cracked head, they will realize they are about to spend thousands and they will balk at spending more than their profit margin. To properly rebuild a cracked head will cost about $2500. You may end up sourcing a good used one and having it rebuilt. If you do one head, you will likely want to do both. You will probably be in about $4000 for the pair. There will be other parts that will need to be replaced, such as fasteners and head gaskets, along with discovery items, and "while you are in there" items such as timing chain tensioners. The old rubber coolant hoses may also be compromised by the oil that has coated them. I would budget about $6000 to do it right.
It is likely the bank-1 head that is cracked if this is due to Y2K Syndrome. A member here may have a brand new bank-1 head for sale at a reasonable price. I don't know if he still has it but it's worth checking out if that is indeed your problem. Check out post #11 on this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...996-1-3-a.html
I mentioned head gasket because that is what Mr. Russell the OP stated. As for the actual cause, you and I are all guessing until the engine is dropped and disassembled. And you know zero about me, what I have, what I drive, what I work on, so statement about my knowledge or lack thereof is pre-mature. This is not my thread, let us not get into an argument.
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I would not only guess, but I'd BET that it's not a head gasket - beyond that, it could be something besides a cracked head, but that is the most likely scenario. You're absolutely right when you say I don't know you - and I didn't purport to. I said "if you think it's a head gasket, then you don't know anything about the M96" - I stand by this statement. It doesn't matter how much you know about anything else, what you have or what you drive. I'm sure you're a nice guy and were trying to help. There was no personal malice or attack intended. No argument here (unless you want to argue the merits of your head gasket theory)
That would be me with the new head. I bought this head years ago, shortly after I had my intermix and fixed it. Bought it on a whim and it has been sitting in my shop since then. This is the head and cam cover with valves, springs, etc. It does not have the cams, etc. you would have to source these separately. I do have a set of 3.4 cams too. The retail price of a new head from Porsche is about $3,800. I am asking $1,800.00 plus shipping. PM me if you are interested.
Will do if needed. Thanks! I am still waiting to hear from the dealer. I can't fathom a world that a dealer hands it back to me saying too bad. Especially when they are selling my hybrid on their website already. At least with this problem it will show up quickly. When I topped the coolant and found this mess it only took a short 30 min drive to turn the coolant into a white sticky mess.
Does this happen often? Blown head with no water in the oil? No CELs, water temp and oil pressure doing fine? Obviously it's probably a head but can someone explain how the oil is so clean?
It's because oil pressure is like 5 times higher than coolant pressure. The crack is a hairline crack so under pressure oil seeps into coolant. After the engine is turned off, no more pressure in the oil system but there could be some pressure in the coolant so it's possible a minute amount of coolant can seep into the oil circuit. However, 1) it's possible the crack seals back up when cooled down 2) you won't be able to see a very small amount of coolant in the oil with naked eyes.
Really no need to speculate because pressure testing the heads will reveal the crack(s). Also note that Jake has said before there are common locations for cracks and less common locations and not all are repairable. Also, there could be more than one cracked location in the same head.
If it's a cracked head, then $1800 for a head with valves and cover is a deal. And you still need a head gasket. And if you are in the Bay area, I'll do it for you or help you with it.
If you search this forum, you will see a lot of cases of cracked heads that produce the exact symptoms you're describing. No matter what the cause of the intermix is, I think you should ask them to show you the culprit and their repair in person.
That's the nicest thing anyone has said to date. I would love to do this but it's still at the dealer, right now I'm just waiting to hear which is of course my most favorite thing to do. Also I'm in WA state.
Thanks for info, was thinking the coolant would have more pressure with the heat and all. Thanks again.
Would a typical spark plug hole compression test show the problem? I am thinking this is all the guy will do, he was going to tear down, find issue, run coolant pressure test, then compression test. This seems good from my more normal auto repair experience but that might not be the case here.
When I had my intermix there was extensive cross contamination, the coolant was like vanilla pudding and the oil was like a milkshake. Remember that when the engine is running the oil is pressurized and when the engine is turned off the oil is no longer pressurized but the hot coolant still is. In my case the problem was a crack in the 1-3 head, on the inner exhaust valve spring seat on cylinder #1. The first two pictures below are my head. This is a very common location for cracks. the rest of the pictures are from others that I hav worked with or messaged with. All are cracks in the same area and I have many more pictures of cracks at this location that owners have sent me. When I was looking for a used head back in 2008/2009 when mine cracked I looked at several used heads from different sellers, and every one was cracked din the same location.
Barring the most common crack that's visible through the spark plug hole (1st pic that Doug posted above), other internal cracks will require pressure testing the heads (with the heads removed from the engine). For more info, please check out
this
article from THE m96/97 head expert - Len Hoffman.
Thanks again, I doubt this dealer will be pulling the heads in the way we are describing. At least it will make more vanilla pudding quickly, showing them it's not fixed still.
As I stated earlier, when they realize they are looking at thousands of dollars to repair, they will be looking for an exit. Best case is they either refund your purchase price and take the car back, or negotiate a partial refund you are both happy with. Worst case is they flush the coolant system and tell you it's fixed, when it's really not, and that the warranty has now expired.
Most used cars are sold "as is" with 3 days to back out of the contract (by law). I am actually surprised they are doing this much for you. It may be because you have another car for sale through them. If they can make a few thousand on each deal, they may be willing to spend a little money on the 996.
There is no 3 day law in WA state but there is an �implied 90 day warranty� they talked of doing a head on another they sold so my worry is mostly anxiety. They seem calm and have held up their end. As-is is one thing if they disclose the issues. This was sold as a good deal with no turn signals That I agreed to fix. A partial refund would work for me too. Anyone know how much sending heads to Hoffman costs?
Lets say they buy the $1800 head and you pay for the install, or you do the install. I think that is a good scenario in this deal. The car was cheap, now you pay.
" Anyone know how much sending heads to Hoffman costs?"
Call him and ask. I'm sure he can give you a ballpark or a best case/worst case scenario... Good luck
Yes I have, as well as engine swaps, and chain actuator swaps, and own all the tools necessary for the job. You are making it sound like the M96 motor is black magic; it's not. You are not touching the bottom end at all and you are doing only 1 head. Essentially, bring the motor TDC on 1 o 4, install head with head gasket, install cams, install cam tools, install cam actuator, install oil scavenger, remove tools, install cam cover with sealant. Drop the motor back in. There are some small tricks that you learn along the way.
This is of course assuming that the new head is all clean and ready to go and you do not do anything else while in there (which is difficult). If you keep it simple, this is a very long weekend job. Probably a 30 hours book rate. Sixteen hours remove replace engine, 16 hours for the head swap.
Go over to the Ferrari boards to see some black magic with 355 liner replacement.
I�ve done it, it�s not rocket science but does require attention to detail or will have bad results. Don�t forget to factor in new head bolts, they are TTY fasteners and can�t be reused. Not inexpensive, if I remember correctly.
A compression test or leak down test will not show the problem. The common hair-line crack is not in the combustion chamber. A coolant pressure test most likely will not show the problem either, since the hair-line crack most likely will not leak except under very high pressure oil/coolant.
I don't think so, that will just test the combustion chamber only , the water jacket area of the head needs a special pressure test done on the bench once removed!
The head I have is just the head, the cam cover, the cam caps, the valves, springs, etc. The same as they way you would buy it from Porsche for $3,800. You have to use your lifter tray, lifters, cams, sprockets, advance mechanism, scavanger pumps, etc. And if you have oil in the coolant you need to flush the coolant out of the engine and the coolant system in the car. A pain but it can be done.
Im hoping and dreaming. Of course the dealer called and said their mechanic took the day off, it did snow here today in fairness but I dropped it off Monday. This is killing me.
I got 1 lonely update from the dealership last night that the car was sent to a mechanic and they were working on it and the dealer is expecting info soon, hopefully today.
Yep, I called Tuesday evening and the manager told me he sent it to a mechanic that does work for them often (the dealer has a stable of luxury imports and sports cars) So I'm hoping I get a call that it's ready since the manager hasn't said anything otherwise in the 2 weeks they have had it. The waiting is pretty damn bad, the car has been back at the dealer longer than I had it home. Maybe they were waiting on a couple parts? This is very wishful thinking.
I can't even get a call back from the dealer, I don't have mechanic info, or even a diagnosis. This is why I'm not stress free and about to receive a 911 with a rebuilt top end.
Here are the only 2 pics I have of her.... (remains unnamed)
Correction, they have
NO
clue 808Bill.
hehehe.... payback!
OP, I've been following your thread. I truly hope you don't get the bend-over-pick-up-the-soap treatment. Normally, if you buy a car as-is with NO written warranty that was signed and agreed upon in contract form, then ultimately the car is yours to deal with. That's why most people that own these cars strongly recommend a PPI on a used 996. Question.. did you buy these car from a Porsche dealership that may have the internal resources to repair this engine? Or, is it an independent dealer/shop? If it's the latter, then that would explain why they're "sitting on it" for a while. If they didn't want to risk the costs, the right thing to do in this deal is to refund your money and give you car back that you traded.
As a parting comment, I would love to see bank 2 scoped. What you wanna bet there is cylinder scoring?
This is a small independent dealer that does deal with used BMWs, Cayennes, Corvettes, among others. My first car payment is coming due in a couple weeks. That sucks! Yes of course a PPI would have been a good idea, but $400 for it was too much for me to spend and lose if the car doesn't or didn't work out and other than the white sludge in the coolant reservoir there are no symptoms, obviously I thought I had it figured out with info from my local indy shop and They did say they could put a service contract onto the deal since it was so fresh and that would take care of costs but I haven't seen anything.
Bill, I would love for them to fix this and I get a rebuilt motor on a low mile chassis. This was also the only coupe in the state I could afford. All the other 996s in the area have 120k+ and are cabs which I don't want as my only car because of looks and miles, color combos... ... ... which island are you on? I have some Honolulu roots and it's been too long since I visited.
If $400 for a PPI is too much for you, Porsche isn�t the right car for you. I have a solenoid that needs to be replaced. The part is $500. A solenoid is copper wire wrapped around a steel core. I had to replace a rear window regulator. The part alone is $850.
The best advice is to get your money back.
Thanks for your opinion, please don't share it when it isn't helpful. Pointing out past mistakes isn't a nice feeling (I still don't see it as only my mistake) and let's remember that a car dealer sold a car with a blown head, all the lawyers here forget that selling a car used, and reportedly in good shape and running order when the car is broken, is fraudulent car sales. They would have to disclose the issue on all their advertisements.
Why does everyone think walking into the dealer and asking for my money back is an option? Sales have no 3 day cool-off period in WA state. If you have a real piece of advice on how to do something I would love to take it under consideration, but telling me the car you have and I plan on keeping isn't the right one for me is insulting imho. I'll start keeping my finance logic to myself for fear of having my middle-class budget scorned by Porsche owners.
This thread was not for people to harp on what I should have done and instead be about observing what happens and helping with decisions moving forward. BTW I want the car fixed and home, other options are not even close.
Jonathan, only you know the details you agreed to when you purchased the car, and further, only you know how you would like the situation to be resolved. Read this carefully. It may give you some options.
https://www.atg.wa.gov/implied-warranty
With that attitude...don't let the door hit you in the **** on your way out...
Tough spot you're in, and any of us could find ourselves in similar circumstances...
But for f..k sake, some of the "you should have done this, or should have done that" comments will come in handy if you do get $'s back and start your search over...
Listen to what free advice others are providing, good or bad, forward looking or past criticism, not just what you want to hear.
No one can properly help if we don't have all the details of where you are in this predicament and how you got there.
GL
Thanks for the note, all of it pretty damn correct. Obviously I�m more than a little emotional to go from buying a dream car that I could afford, and can afford to maintain, to the dealer having it for 2 going on 3 weeks.
I missed the coolant reservoir for about 2 days of owning and when I first went in to the dealer they weren�t sure about me driving it because their mechanic had been working on a coolant leak. The salesman checked with the manager that then let me test drive the car. So they knew about the problem, probably couldn�t diagnose the leak (into the block) and rolled the dice?
My plan has been to find an example I can afford easily so I can do the maintenance myself as a hobby. Replacing and upgrading parts as needed until my car was a much better example that I would keep for a long time.
Apologies for the attitude, stress and uncertainty have been a mfer. I want to say that unwinding the deal if it�s possible is my last resort, the 2kC2 in Artic Silver is my all time color. I still am hoping for repair.
Humbly, Jon.
As a hobby car you will be fine. I like the fact that you don�t want to unwind the deal, if you can truly DIY the repairs the satisfaction you will get driving the car is multiplied IMO. Much better than just throwing your checkbook to a shop. With a DIY repair you will only throw half the checkbook!
Just remember to enjoy the process.
Hi Jon, I like your style,this forum can be harsh, looks like your skin is tough-enough to handle it. I like the fact you want your car repaired and not just walk away. I hope they do a professional job of diagnosing the intermix,pulling the head and having it professionally fixed or replaced and giving the car back to you. With your determination I believe the maintenance items will be easy for you to keep up with. Good luck with your dream car !!
These cars can be harsh. They are beautiful, fun, awesome, but when things go wrong.....
People are just trying to help with the hard lessons learned here. If it�s too harsh walk away now amd chalk it down to lesson learned. If you are planning on owning and keeping a Porsche in top shape, it�s going to cost. It�s not a disposable domestic or Japanese car.
While Murphy's Law's comment was a little 'direct', it's also worthwhile advice to consider. The Porsche tax is a very real thing, and the engine bay on these things is crowded. Paying for someone else to do things is expensive, and doing it yourself is frustrating, difficult for novices, and only slightly less expensive. Doing an oil change on this thing costs me about $100 when you factor in 9 qts of oil and filter.
You also mentioned that this would be your only car, which is fine. These things were made to be used. But while you're getting the funds together to buy parts to make the car run correctly, you might be without transport for a while.
Then there's this repair you're currently going through. I think all of us are a little surprised that the dealership is entertaining fixing it for you, give the expense of fixing what is usually the problem (cracked head). A replacement head from a reputable company is going to cost a couple thousand, I am not sure a dealership has the know-how to find someone to repair it. I think the feeling here is you've found a unicorn dealer, or they are going to botch this repair.
Anyway, the best of luck to you.
Back from vacation and finally an update from the dealer. The car is still at the dealers shop that they use regularly and they are performing a leak down test on the motor. They "weren't sure what gasket was leaking" They should finish the test this afternoon and I'll give the sales manager a call around 3-4 my time to check in. I'm not super familiar with a leak down test, but with Google magic I understand what it does, but will that diagnose a cracked head? I'm guessing they already went through the cheaper fixes like AOS, Oil Cooler, and some others I am not sure about.
^^ There is no "gasket leaking"...^^ These guys (the dealer) are a disaster. Do whatever you have to do, to get your money (or most of it) back and run away. There are plenty of great 996's "out there" - don't get tied to this one. Sorry for piling on, but you've been warned (several times). I hope it works out for you.
I totally agree at this point. I have to wait for the shop to diagnose it but I'm not giving them more than this week. I'm already internet shopping for another 996. I'm curious if it's always best to get a low mile car? Can I consider a car with 100k or 147k miles on it?
I bought a 99 this past October with 112k without a PPI
and practically no records.
I will say I bought it pretty cheap but was willing to roll the dice. Roughly six months and 2500 miles later I'm still grinning. So it all depends upon your aversion to risk. And a low mileage car isn't a guarantee. Maintenance records are probably more important than low mileage. IMHO.
Dporto is right, the comments they are making are classic, I don't know what I'm doing with a watercooled 996 engine, that engine is seriously poorly and needs coming out of the car and the head needs coming off and pressure testing , I would just walk away , you will spend months not seeing a car you own otherwise!
It depends where the crack is. Refer to the posts above. If the crack in your head is the same as what's shown in post 33, the cylinder will hold pressure and "pass" the test since the crack is in not in the combustion chamber.
Got an unexpected update just now, the shop fixed the leak and are putting the 911 back together for me to pick up in 2 days. Got no details on what was found or fixed. Still waiting to hear details from the sales manager. I�m praying it�s actually fixed.
Firstly, they didn't "fix" the leak - they temporarily patched something up. Unfortunately, prayers won't fix your engine - they'll just give the dealer enough time to tell you to pound salt...Once again, you've been warned by folks who have experience with these engines, and you continue to bury your head in the sand, pray, and listen to (and believe?) the guys who's only motivation is to get that car back in your hands, and your $$ in theirs...
I was literally going to type the same thing then thought, its been said a dozen times, he's not listening. I would want pictures, videos parts receipts etc. Also if they truly believed its fixed they should have no issue giving you say a 2yr/20kmile warranty on this issue.
First of all, no small used car dealer is going to give you an extended warranty on an issue like this. Second, everybody on this forum seems quick to convict the dealership of trying to rip the guy off or bandaid the car to just get by, but we have zero evidence that is what they are trying to do. If this is a small but high end luxury dealer they are probably very concerned about keeping a good reputation, the internet can be a real business killer. Third, the customer is getting information from the selling dealer, who is getting information from a repair shop service writer, who is getting information from the actual technician. It is highly unlikely the details of the job are making it all the way to the customer in that scenario. At this point the dealer is on the hook, they have accepted responsibility to fix the issue so even if it is not fixed they are not absolved of that responsibility because they tried once and failed. Hopefully the shop they brought the car to has some experience with water cooled 911's and will fix it right the first time. I know if a scenario like this came into my shop I would pull both heads and send them out to be magnafluxed, pressure tested, and resurfaced before installing new gaskets. A job like that is just too big to put it back together without being absolutely certain the root cause of the problem has been identified.
I think we all want a good outcome for the OP.
There are a lot of possibilities, most are not that good. This sort of story is naturally going to be met with a lot of skepticism.
Suggesting that the OP go in with eyes open, and requesting verification of the "fix", is where most of us are. Only he can make the final decision. Hopefully it is one that he is happy with, in the end.
Sir,
The car was already bought, there are no options. Warning me again that I can't unwind a deal? I have a good friend (Former GM at a Larson Porsche dealer) walking me through my options which are few. Legally I can require that they warrantee the fix and write it as an addendum on the original deal. I'd hope you would apologize since you seem very invested in telling me I'm wrong.
Thanks,
OP
All of this is correct. When I go in to get the car I will be requiring documents from the repair shop and a warranty on the fix, this is legally required in WA state. I had never gotten good info because they aren't asking for more than is it done from the shop and only gave details when I started bothering them more this week. Luckily the symptom will show up when I'm there in the coolant reservoir. I will inquire about a warranty on the car overall because they did have some options.
Jonathan. Well there are a lot of people here that are giving you advice and opinions, many of whom have no real experience with this. I spoke up before and you can search my threads on the repair of my car, which I did myself. My intermix happened in 2008 and I had it back on the road in spring of 2009 so 10 years ago and about 50,000 miles. I did send the head out to be repaired. Back then these repairs were not common but they are now. I will be driving the car this weekend.
It is important to know what the problem was but the cracked heads causing this are common. So if is a good shop it can be repaired, and a shop has more experience, tools and equipment than I did/do. If you can get a refund than that would be great, but then if you buy another 996 of this era you could get this problem on that one. And if you talk to those who have fixed these heads a reoccurrence is not common. So find out what the problem was, who did the repair and what they did to repair it. IMHO.
Jonathan, even if the problem is a cracked head, it can be repaired to new condition. All you need is some time and one or two special tools, and ***** enough to get into it. Keep an eye out for that $2K naked head offered somewhere in this thread.
Hell, remove the engine from the car, ship it to me and I'll do for you. Good luck. It's just a car. Enjoy, drive, if it breaks, fix it and repeat.
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Good to hear! Perhaps you could request they update the timing chain guides and the IMS bearing if you pay for the parts and additional labor while the motor is apart? Those would be excellent items to address right now.
In your first post you stated the intermix was in the coolant reservoir. I hate to put a damper on the celebration, but you really need to ask the shop how they plan to clean out the coolant system. A conventional flush will not do it. That milkshake is tenacious!
do some searching, there has been some success using very hot water ( I mean near boiling) mixed with Shout laundry stain remover. Not easy, but the only alternative is a mechanical scrub-out if the tubes, also not easy. There’s a ton of hoses and pipes in the system. And don’t forget the radiators and oil cooler!
still hoping for a great outcome...it it possible.
I just ran into this thread again. I'm not sure exactly what you want me to apologize for? But, if it will make you feel better, I am sorry
It seems the dealer finally figured out (i.e. - someone that knows anything about these engines told them it wasn't a head gasket) that it wasn't a head gasket and went ahead and replaced the head for you. Hopefully this is the end of this saga, and you've learned a little bit about the 996/M96 and used car dealers. Good luck with your new car
I would ask about possible PM. The AOS is held on by a single bolt. 30 second ordeal with the motor out. For first timers 5+ hour ordeal with motor in.
Hey Guys,
How long does a head job take once the motor is already out of the car? I was thinking 2 days for a shop that doesn't know them well. Is there a break-in period after the head replacement?
Another question: The car has Hankook tires all around, fronts are new, rears are going to need to be replaced, can I size up on the tires in my C2? I think I have 17s so from 255/40/17 to 285s?
You really need to be talking to the shop that's doing the work and not the salesman/mgr of the car lot.
Are they sending the head out for repair or did they buy a new head?
Well I did get to talk with the shop and the mechanic directly thanks to lying to someone at the dealer that the sales manager asked them to give me the shop info.
Pretty simple from the mechanic, he said that once he pulled the heads there was a piston sleeve broken and cracked. Th mechanic had already found some nice used motors with warrantees and fewer miles than I have currently. He said the rest of the motor and its' accessories looked great along with the underside when he had it on a lift. What I don't know is if the dealer will swallow the motor swap.
Thanks for all the support through this guys. I'm hoping this ends sometime next week, the car is in pieces in a shop and I'm sure they want the space for other cars, I hope I'm waiting only on the motor being shipped.
I'm going to ask and make sure I get all the paperwork from the shop, also have an Evolution Motorsports CAI that I will want to keep from the original motor.
Trust that I want to see how much this is costing the dealer that's dragged their feet on this.
I was told by the mechanic that the car should be done today, he expected to get the motor in yesterday and then would wrap up fluids and the rest today. Finally going to be able to drive my car I have owned for 2.5 months and have had in my possession for 3 days. Hopefully I'll see some folks near Seattle on PCA events.
Got the car back finally, picked up from the shop and got all the info about what was and wasn't fixed. The dealer wouldn't pay to have anything done once they hit around $2,200. The shop wasn't very happy because he wanted to at least fix it correctly. Once the engine was removed and heads pulled, the engine was run without water for some time, he swears the gaskets were blown and maybe. So he replaced the water pump replaced all the gaskets and I think thermostat because the car stays just under 180. The mechanic thought he could replace the number 4 cylinder sleeve but the dealership wouldn't let him crack the block. So he used something called Water Glass to seal anything, this is a GM product for their NorthStar motors.
So that's what happened, this is how it runs:
The car started fine but for the first time smoked from the driver exhaust heavily and some also from passenger side (#4 cylinder), the car smokes until up to temp and then sometimes after when accelerating from a stop or close to stop. The car threw 3 CELs as soon as I drove home, 2 #4 misfires and O2 sensor forward of cats not reporting. The shop then changed the oil, changed the #4 plug and said good luck. the car ran rough at first but now humms ok. Pulls hard, temp is under 180, oil pressure is high for a while longer than it used to be before it went down (maybe their oil wasn't the right weight?) Other than the embarrassing smoking at first startup, it's great. Drove the car for hours and no issues. Is the smoking from the rings? Having the heads off? New gaskets?
The mechanic said I need to replace the motor or get rid of it soon. How can I trade my 996 in for another 996 and not raise eyebrows?
Sounds like a bodge job just to get you out the door I'm afraid , go and trade it at a dealership ASAP, don't drive it anywhere except straight there, smile and wave as you drive your new car, hopefully porsche away , then never return 😃
Can u trade it back to the dealership u purchased at for something comparable $$? Take a hit, but helps lessen it a bit, maybe?
Sorry for your predicament.
I will never do business with that dealer again and I wouldn't trust a single car on their lot. I'm submitting a complaint with the WA state Attorney General against the dealer.
I might move up to a 997? and trade in with a hit. Maybe a nicer 996.
Jonathan, sorry to hear this is how things worked out. That mechanic's honesty is appreciated, but according to what he said this is going to end in brutal fashion. I'd contact a lawyer immediately. If you sell this car to an unsuspecting buyer and they find this thread, you'd likely be on the hook for it yourself. Your best bet is to trade it to a dealership TODAY.
996; wanted a different color?
Trading to a dealer is still dishonest. I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Just because they are a dealer doesn't mean they deserve to be blatantly lied to and take a 15k hit on a motor either. He needs to be honest with a trade, or buckle in hire a lawyer to go after the dealer who sold to you.
Best of luck
I agree with what others have said, your selling dealer should be the one still on the hook for this engine. Sodium Silicate is not the correct repair for this, this product has been around for decades and is used mainly in aluminum race engines for short term only.
It is a short term "patch job" that is used by people who can't afford to do a proper repair. It will buy them a few weeks, months, maybe even a year (sometimes)..
It would be dishonest to trade the car in to another unsuspecting dealer. I hate this has happened to you, but don't let the selling dealer get away with this "botched repair". They will just do it to someone else...
Maybe someone else traded it to the dealer knowing it's problems then it's worked it's way through the system to you, in my opinion , people buy from a dealer as it gives re assurance against this type of occurrence, I'd be persistent with them , I had a similar problem a few years ago , not porsche but first visit to the dealer didn't look good, but I just kept going back and going back and basically I was negotiating a timing belt failure with head damage etc , first offer was , they pay 40% parts which didn't scratch the surface , final deal was they paid all parts and 70% labour , total bill was like 7k as it was a nearly new car, it's not good advertising with an unhappy customer hanging around every weekend, hey I'd even start chatting to other potential buyers , tell them how good the after sales service is , ********, they should take the hit and have a crate motor put in for you, they probably have insurance to cover it, what's the point paying premium buying from a dealer if you just get screwed if something goes wrong, porsche circles are small and people tend to do their homework so just make it known that you will make sure everyone knows how you've been treated, they trying to F#%+ you so just do the same to them in my opinion ********
This was the outcome many if us expected.
The engine will not hold up with that "repair". In my opinion, the best course at this point is to sell the 996 "as is" and disclose the history to perspective buyers. You will take a financial hit, but you won't have to worry about legal issues later if someone comes after you for not disclosing the engine issues.
You can go after the dealer, but you probably won't get much out of them in court. I hope this doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth regarding the 996. This particular car was probably traded to the dealer or sold at auction by a seller who knew the engine was toast. Unfortunately, there are a lot of crappy people out there.
We tried to tell you to take the car back and get your money back, and you tried to let the dealer make it right, but they weren�t able to do it right.
I would still insist on taking the car back. How big is this dealer? I have to tell you, I really cannot stand most small used car dealerships. The margins are so tight that there often bottom of the barrel people working them. A larger dealership could probably afford to take a $10k hit like this, or put the car back at auction, since they probably paid $11-$13k for the car in the first place. Why should you be stuck with a huge loss?
I agree, you are morally and legally obligated to disclose this issue to anyone you sell to. Karma is real and will come back if you don�t. I�ve been lied to when I bought a car so many times that I will never do that to another human being.
Regardless, the dealer taking the car back isn�t so far fetched. Will they lose money on this car? Surely. However, they get special rates for mechanic work, and like I said, they paid a lot less for the car than you did. If they are so insistent on this being a good car, they can drive it themselves as a company car.
I think this is right even though you have owned the car for a few months , you took it back with a problem quite soon after you purchased it , giving the dealer the opportunity to put things right but they haven't and most of that $2300 warranty money will have gone on labour at full shop rate, when dealers need to pull on insurance to do a repair job it should all be at cost price with no profit involved , parts at the same price as the garage gets them and the hourly rate of the mechanic repairing your car, currently the dealer will have profited from the original sale, profited from parts used and profited on the hourly rate from the mechanic as it will be charged through as a set rate taking into account normal business operation for the shop, wages, back office , etc but here the profit has been made when he sold you that broken car, surely if it was fixed at cost price more could be done , at the moment he's made money on the car and probably the half arsed repair job aswel, I would have the cylinders bore scoped at a porsche specialist , sounds like that mechanic saw something he didn't like with cylinder 4 also the stuff they used to seal the cooling system is like a liquid gasket and is not a proper fix, these engines don't have gasket failures but if it got hot it could have warped the heads causing a failure which appears like gasket failure on stripdown, that liquid glass stuff might hold for a while but it will fail and probably cause more damage , i really feel for you here and maybe you can seek advice on your legal rights, if it was me I'd take it back throw the keys over the desk and say I'm not moving till I get my money back then sit there all day if necessary , if they don't come round , say you will visit the dealership every week end until the give you your money back , don't get drawn in to any more repairs from them , just say you have lost confidence with their ability and you want your money back period!!
All I can add is I will never buy a used P-product anywhere but R-list Marketplace or Panorama classifieds.
I don’t even trust my local Porsche dealership for a used car...
TC
Wait, what happened to the new/used motor?
I'm sorry but I saw this coming a mile away! Spend a few buck now, and talk to an attorney with a timeline of everything that has happened . Have him write a letter demanding a full refund and return the car.
I'd handle things very differently (I'm old school) and will refrain from giving you my personal approach...
https://www.escrow.com/cars
I have never used an escrow service for a vehicle - but I've also never had any issues with the title documentation before. I suggested it only as a way to ensure peace of mind given your concerns. It's probably overkill, but potentially useful.
Hey Guys,
I'm still driving the thing sparingly.
I filed a claim against the dealer with the WA State Attorney General and nothing really came of it, the dealer said sorry and sent me a check for $100. I called a lawyer that deals with a lot of cars here in the Seattle area and he said proving fraud is nearly impossible and proving that they knew the extent of the damage to the car prior to selling it is also hard, which also leaves me liable for all the lawyers fees if I were to lose and due to that the Lawyer said sorry but he wouldn't take it on. So that at least sealed the deal and I could move forward.
So I have been taking care of the thing, I changed the oil a little scared to see the result and I am flushing the coolant currently. I took the 911 to a really cool rent a lift garage here in Kirkland, WA
https://stewsgarage.com/
and changed the oil without issue, it looked good. Draining the coolant went much better than I expected. I thought nothing but sludge was going to slide out of the car obviously showing impending engine failure but what I found was all of the coolant was still clear and looking more normal than not and only the stuff coming out of the reservoir tank was sludgy. Refilling that damn car with coolant was a nightmare, the bleeder valve top was broken and couldn't be left open to bleed, also the cap was no longer holding and would give out if the car got up to 190. Parts ordered and the car took 2.5 gallons of additional coolant in but the damn thing would overheat in traffic until this past week. It hasn't taken any water in a couple weeks. The fun part was I'm running a coolant flush detergent that I need to drain and refill all over again soon. It says to be ran for 6-8 hours, I will say the heat works a ton better already. Small victories.
I have still been too scared to call a couple independents to see if doing a new sleeve is possible, or maybe a new half case. The right bank does make a ticking noise on startup, I'm hoping it's just that 1 cracking problem on the #4 cylinder sleeve.
If I had a garage I would consider pulling the motor and pulling it apart and shipping the half case off to a machine shop able to replace it, but I don't.
Not trying to add insult to injury, but now you have a ticking sound on top of the intermix issue which is screaming cylinder bore scoring. Of course, I would advise you to not drive the car unless you've come to terms with it's utter demise. You got the shaft from this dealer, no doubt about it. The $100 dollar check was just hush money. I think everyone can learn from this situation. So many people rush out to buy their Porsche dream car only to find it becomes a nightmare. You should really take a hard look at the next steps. If I were in your shoes, I'd sell it with full disclosure and move on with my life and wash my hands of this whole nasty situation.
All I can say is - Next time you buy a car, do a little research first. Had you come here prior to your purchase, I'm pretty sure you'd have gotten advice that was heavily weighted toward passing on that car. Unfortunately, you're now in for a very expensive "ride" most likely followed by you dumping it on some unsuspecting buyer (much like yourself) or selling it as a roller...
Man, that really sucks. Maybe there�s a specialist you can find somewhere far away that can address it and do a great job for a decent price. The 996 short blocks or a used engine might be had for $5k. I would be on the lookout for something like that.
I'm not a lawyer, but played an investigator in a past life. You may have provided the evidence you need further up.
read the middle paragraph of your response from my screenshot, and then read it again, slowly. The dealership had already diagnosed a problem involving some sort of coolant leak and were hesitant to let you take it for a test drive. They finally relented and then allowed you to buy it. They may have had prior knowledge of the damage.
Once again, I'm not a lawyer and not offering you legal advice. If you take this information to a lawyer they can offer you a legal opinion of the information.
I wish you the best.
Good point, but you must understand fraud in this case would have to involve premeditated action(s) to withhold or hide information (i.e. disclosure) from the potential buyer. That wasn't the case. The dealership made the buyer aware of the problem, but they didn't even know the extent of the damage to the engine. In used car sales that one is very hard to prove as his lawyers have wisely pointed out. Many states have made extra legal measures (i.e. lemon law, cooling off law, etc.) to protect buyers, but when the dust settles, a used car sold "as-is" is just that - AS IS. There is little recourse against the dealership since the buyer knowingly bought the car "as-is" and was made aware of the problem. In good faith, the dealership was willing to pay to have it repaired up to a certain threshold. That being, $2,200. The dealership never agreed to pay for a complete engine rebuild even though the mechanic clearly stated that a engine replacement or rebuild was needed. The buyer never offered a service agreement or any type of warranty from the dealer. Did the dealer give the buyer the shaft? Yes! They could have bought the car back, but they chose their battles and if this were to go to court, they'd win. IMHO.
Hello, I am new to this forum. My 1999 Porsche 996 has oil/coolant mix. The cylinder heads may have to be sent out for repair. Can you refer a good, trustworthy, quality Porsche repair shop in Miami? Thank you.
Hoffman is the perfect one to repair them but he's asked me to get a local shop to send them to him, and who can service the car long term. So, I am looking for a reputable Porsche shop in Miami. Thank you for your help.
I read through this entire thread last eve while at work. This re affirms and I heard a long time ago when I bought my first 944. �There is no such thing as a cheap Porsche�.
I�ve bought approximately 43 cars in my short life. Some new and many used cars. High end and lower. Being said I�ve had buyers remorse and some nightmare scenarios. Actually bought a 1992 Cadillac Seville that blew a head gasket and needed new engine. Cost me 5200$ and that�s back in 1998.
Being said this was almost worse case situation when buying a 996 or any 911 I guess. It seems to good to be true it usually is. I had 77 930 turbo. Cost me 8500$ in repairs so could drive and not catch fire! I bought off a celebrity son too!! Well traded for a new hd soft tail.
One response I found humorous was the response from Johnathan that was asking about tires for this car? I�m sorry sir but you need to reset your priorities, sell this car as a roller for someone to make into driver wt new engine and start your search over. Maybe dodged a bullet financially. Probably get 10-12k for it as sits if clean body and no accidents. Then really delve into the idiosyncrasies common problems and overall knowledge of the Porsche 996 cars. Spend more upfront and drive happier. I always said cry once. Good luck. I�m sorry it happened. Can�t say I haven�t been in that situation. It�s just been a while and I did feel for you on many levels. Good luck have a safe weekend folks.
hello,
If I do have to buy a new head for one side, but the other is fine, do you think its wise to just replace both, and get two new heads? Or of 1 is bad, just buy only 1?
I�m certainly not an expert, but I would think a cracked/bad head is rare, and you shouldn�t have to replace the 2nd head. That said, the engine is probably torn down at this point, right, and you�re probably going to be rebuilding it, and when it comes to engine rebuilds, I think doing an X-ray (Magnaflux) on the block and heads might be a good idea to make sure they are intact without any cracks.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
