Coming back to P cars - Thoughts on Renn 2.7 swap in 996?

Hello all, I've not posted on rennlist for quite a while. After years of P car ownership I stepped away for a while. Having two small kids, career commitments, and being heavily into restoring airplanes, I didn't have the time to wrench on Porsches (my last 964 project sat in my garage for 3 years :P ). The Porsche cravings though are now too much to bare ! I have had my eyes on a project for a while now and wanted to see what fellow renlisters thought about it. I'm very interested in buying a 996 coupe with no engine or problem engine, and fitting the "Renn 2.7" engine swap into it. I love the audi 2.7 twin turbo engine (I've seen my mech install 10-15 of them in A4's), and would love to fit one in a 996. Not interested in LS work. Is there anyone here with an Audi 2.7 in their 996? Anyone here considering it? What is the rennlist general options on this? I know purists with not be on board with this, and I respect that view. However I'm into this for the fun, not the ideology, petagree, or re-sale value etc. I'd love to hear what you may think. If you haven't looked, here is their website for reference... https://www.renn27.com/ Happy new year, Michael

That looks like it'd be an amazing swap! Hope you end up going this route.

The guys are local to me and from everything I’ve been told really cool. You have my encouragement !

If Renn27 project can come in at a total build cost less than $30,000, then why the heck not? Rollers would be in high demand!

Excellent idea... Had a 2.7t in my s4, gave car to my son when it was 3 years old, he was in college in central FL. He abused it like a typical wild college kid. Every corner was dented. Oil never changed till it came home to me after 15,000+ miles. Fixed the dents/dings, tuned it up with a chip, it went back to college with son for another 10,000 miles of total abuse from a 20year old boy. Car never missed a beat, just ran strong and sounded great. No 5 chains slapping around, no piston slap, no imsb, no aos problems, no bore score, didn't use oil. Ran like a timex, and pulled like my tuned F350 6.7. I luv the power delivery of a good tuned turbo engine... The Audi 2.7t replaced a 1 year old 99 boxster the son had his first year in college. The Boxster came home on a flatbed with puddle of oil under it. I've built hundreds of engines... Most of my rebuilds were to freshen up a worn out engine and beef it up, typical was to find cyls out of round, piston skirts collapsed, compression down, bearings worn out, valves leaking, etc, but engine still running, not in a pile of destroyed parts with holes in the block... To their credit Porsche after much bitching, did warranty a new engine. Then I sold it fast for good money. So from my anecdotal experience, the iron block 2.7t is a powerful beast and seems college kid proof, unlike the delicate, catastrophic failure prone 996/986 Porsche. Wondering how good the stock 2.7t oil sump baffles are for track use..? Can it take the g's a 996 chassis can deal out..? Looks like the perfect engine swap for a great handling, powerful,stout, long long living, keeping it in the tutonic family, swap. Purist can have their m96 engines, for me, the m96 is the least favorite engine I've ever owned. And I've had more cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, snow mobiles, jetski, atv, and SxS than I can count.... Keep us informed with pics please. This might be my next project when 1 of my 996 $hit the bed as I can't justify putting 15K into another m96 with 5chains, aos, feeble oiling system, etc.... jmho

Do it! Start a thread! I'm loving these 996 hot rod projects. It's a good platform for it; relatively cheap, relatively plentiful, still a Porsche 911.

A thread from a few weeks ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-in-996-a.html

Do it! I was looking at e-gas 996 cars on copart thinking of this swap a few days ago. I just wish that I could swap my '99 (I guess you can't because you need the electronic throttle).

Go for it! The only two question I have is (1) what solutions are available to address oil starvation on the track, and (2) how much do you have to rip up the car to get it to fit?

I wish a swap could be reversed without having "scars" if you ever wanted to. Someday a swapped/chopped Porsche 996 may not be worth as much compared to "unmolested" similar to old SB Chevy swapped aircooled Porsches. If I were to do a swap, it would be an LS swap in order to build a "competitive" drag & drive/Texas Mile car. The most limiting factor is the transmission and gearing. At the moment it's cheaper to use a different platform.

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^^^^^This. Don't know how much hacking. We saw the hacking Bayside had to do with the K24. Quite frankly it looked like hell after everything was said and done. No clue with the LS or 2.7.

From what I recall no permanent mods were required to install the 2.7T swap. There is even an electrical adapter box to plug into the factory wiring which keeps all the dash functionality.

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Sounds like a no brainer.

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I�m going to have to disagree with that. For 60 years a Porsche 911 has been a 2 door sports car with a rear mounted flat 6 engine. But the Renn27 kit does looks pretty cool. Mainly because all the gauges and a/c still function properly. There�s none of the �I dated my first cousin� look ls swaps have. And since they�ve done all the hard work, all you need to do is send them 10K. Just don�t call it a Porsche 911

Agreed. It's an A27 Porsche.

I think swaps are cool and there�s nothing wrong with that set up.

Philosophically, I get the whole keep it as original as possible. I have upgrades with some 997 stuff to make my car better. My 996 is a keeper as long as I can maintain it. If the weakest part of my car, the M96 fails, I’ll do whatever I can to upgrade to a motor that will enhance my driving experience and reduce my costs and increase reliability. Fortunately, I have a rebuilt to 3.8 with Nickies, so there’s that. I didn’t buy this as a collectible, I bought it to drive as much and as hard as possible. If I had a heart transplant, I’d still be me, just a lot more alive than I would’ve been had I remained a “pure” specimen.

Your brain makes you, you. Sounds like the brain stays in for this swap. Or at least the swap connects into the brain. What about oil starvation? What's available to address the issue?

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The 996 is a good starting point. Because it's relatively inexpensive, there are a lot of them, and it's 911. But since you bring it up, I think it's still a 911 after the swap, just a hot rod 911. Just like a '32 Ford with a Chevy mill is still a '32 Ford.

I love to see the market developing more competitive ways of keeping these cars on the road after an engine failure. Seems like a great project!

" Someday a swapped/chopped Porsche 996 may not be worth as much compared to "unmolested" similar to old SB Chevy swapped aircooled Porsches." That day is the day you decide to sell it.

Thanks for the input guys. I have an early lead on a C4S candidate. It's much easier to grab a swap candidate as you all know the real nail biter in buying a used 996/7 is does it...will it.... make metal, or gravey? I don't care in this instance. I'm also a big fan of the audi 2.7 twin turbo, and have many contacts with years of indepth experiance with the engine. These guys are solid. This is important to me. To me the pros are... 1) The 2.7 is a non destructive plug and play job. Not a single cut wire, hose, plastic, or piece of sheat metal to the 996. 2) With the 2.7 swap is you can litterly pull it all out, and re-install the facory engine later if wanted. 3) substantially more Hp/Tq for the 996. 4) "I precive" the 2.7 to be more reliable. (Just my personal preception and I dont want to start a bun fight) I know I'm treading on thin ice here with this whole idea, so please have mercy. 5) I can buy a spare engine for less then a set of tires. Cons... 1) Not much feedback on this project from others who have gone the route. 2) Not 100% a porsche. This will be my 9th Porsche and being relatively self secure I don't really care about that. I love wrenching on them and having fun. I'll post back to update on a candidate purchase, and after talking to the guys at renn27. In the interm any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Cheers, Michael

I sent an email into R27 to see what they do to address oil starvation. While I am a purist, I am an Audi fan and do like the capabilities of the 2.7, not to mention the "plug, play & remove" nature of it without having to hack up the car. If all pans out, it may be the darling of those that buy a roller for cheap and turn it into a formidable track car with the 2.7. Looking forward to your project.

One of these guys showed up to my local C&C with the 2.7 swapped 996. It was a nice setup, looked very clean. He mentioned that he did have some track experience with it, so he might have some insight to the oil starvation. I think the idea and pro/cons of this project are great. Who cares if it has a M96? There are nearly 200k of these things produced, collectibility is a non-issue. Plus, kids now can barely drive manuals never mind if someone can actually pilot a car in 30 years. I�m driving mine.

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Don't see a lot for off the shelf dry sump options but you could reach out to these guys found through quick google search. https://ulracing.eu/product/audi-s4-...-dry-sump-pan/ Disclaimer, I know nothing about Audi's is there is a more accessible option. Edit to add - a track car, like one thats built for the track... is caged, therefore - it's hacked up. If you're building a car for the sole purpose of going fast, sheetmetal does not stand in the way. Thats how I would define a track car anyway.

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I agree, once you've turned your car into a dedicated track/race car, the rules for keeping it original are out the window. While the LS swap requires some cutting, the electrical is supposed to be Plug N Play if you use Chavis: https://www.chavisperformanceenginee...modulation-box

According to Renn 2.7, they use the factory baffled oil pan. I asked them for more clarification that this oil pan addresses oil starvation in the track. Yeah, the vast majority of folks that do these swaps don't track their cars. But it is an attractive swap due to its cost, plug and play capabilities and performance. Oil starvation should clearly be a discussion point. Hope they respond.

You should ask them about how well their water to air cooler works at keeping IAT’s manageable in the engines happy place. That could be as prohibitive or more so to longevity on track than inconsistent oil pressure and is not an easy engineering problem to solve. Something to think about if planning on going this route.

Told them about the thread and to jump on to answer questions. They mentioned that they have been tracking it. At this stage, it's all I know.

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I hope they do. This is a very intriguing swap. I couldn't afford to drop $30K for rebuild on my car if and when the time comes. The back-of-my-mind plan has been to go with a factory short block and all of the known disadvantages that comes along with it but a 2.7T swap makes a lot of sense to me even though the "loss of purity" does give me slight pause. Being able to keep the car on the road for $15K-ish with more power and hopefully less stress in the catastrophic engine failure direction is very appealing.

Me too!

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That is the challenging part. I would guess that with the 2.7 the stock 2 radiator system should work keeping the engine cool, and you could add a third center radiator for just the air to water on its own circuit. Without the rear fender ducts, there isn�t any good air to be found in the rear of the car for the heat exchanger. You may be able to fit 2 smaller radiators in the center section with one adding to the stock cooling, and one for the intercooler. Or possibly get high quality aluminum stock replacements for more heat transfer and leave the center section strictly for intercooler exchanger. Regardless both are definitely important and shouldn�t be overlooked.

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From reading their site, looks to be a stand alone water to air system. With its own pump, coolant tank and heat exchanger in the wheel well..? IAT is a very basic reading to monitor. You'd think after doing all this work on the plug and play swap kit, they have sized all intercooler components to correctly remove enough heat for the 'normal' abuse a Porsche chassis will give/get... Possibly, if bumping up the boost for extensive track use, an upgraded intercooler upgrade might be needed..? Doesn't say if a aux electric fan is used on the heat exchanger, but would assume so considering its location. From their site.... "An air to water unit allows us to use a smaller core which is mounted within the engine bay. The tank and pump are mounted within the engine bay. The heat exchanger is mounted in place of the driver side muffler, where it can collect enough airflow behind the drivers side rear tire."

Hi, I'm one of the founders of Renn27, and can answer some of the questions you have. I built my car a little more than 2 years ago, have put about 8K miles on it since. I did this out of the desire for doing something different to be able to afford a performance level exotic of a 996 turbo. I pulled it off for half price really, and that was the ultimate goal that I had. I also wanted to bring the concept to others who needed an engine replacement for the M96 or M97 that made more power, was cheaper, and reliable. So... 1. Oil control on the track; NOT an issue. I ran hard at Thompson CT and Club Motorsports in NH and did not have an issue with hard cornering and transition with my car on Falken 615's going hard. I also have HR coil overs and sway bars, so I'm sure I was hitting some high G's in corners. We have the stock oil pressure gauge working with our setup and I never saw it dip down at all while driving. One thing I would recommend for hard track use is a center radiator if you don't already have one. I did not on my 2001 C2, but will add one for this coming track season. 2. So you have to hack the car up? Not really. There is one cut I made for the air intake on the passenger side in the engine bay. I don't feel like its loosing anything structural, but you don't HAVE to do this. You could keep the air filter down in the bumper area and not have to make this cut. You DONT have to cut any wiring. I did cut the aluminum coolant pipes for the radiator in and out back near the engine bay, but these are bolt on parts that could be replaced easily. 3. Air to water intercooler is super efficient and keeps intake temps very low even under hard use.

I love the kit and the idea. What kind of times you run at Thompson with it ?

k_harley, Thanks for coming to the forum and answering question. I have owned 9 audis over the years (2 presently) with the 4.2, 3.0, 2.7, 2.0, but never tracked them. As such, I never dug into the "weak links" of the engines on the track. Can you discuss the "weak link" issues of the 2.7 and possible failure points, as well as recomendations to take what you have built with the R27 to the next level of being bullet proof. Thanks

I did not time myself, it was my first time on track with the 996, street tires, HORRIBLE brakes on an SCCA track night.

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Track related weak links on the 2.7t usually are something in the turbo system. The engines are great I think. No oil issues, no timing issues. When we work on 2.7t cars in my shop diagnosing power or drivability issues, its always the turbo system. The stock twin setup is pretty complex, hard to work on, and sensitive. Our single setup takes a lot of these issues out of the equation.

Any big hits to serviceability? Can I change the plugs without pulling the engine? Is the oil filter accessible etc.... That kind of thing.

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Its about the same, or better as when it was in the Audi I think. Yes, plugs are accessible as is, timing belt can be done in car (unlike Audi having to pull front end), oil changes are super easy, but we supply a special filler funnel. The only parts that are hard to get now are the PCV hoses and chain tensioners are tough to reach, but those should be replaced with new upon installation. The rear of the motor is hard to reach, but there's not much going on back there.

@k_harley Any chance you have a dyno graph of a 450hp single turbo 2.7? All I can seem to find are 600+hp with bigger turbos from unreliable sources. Curious to see how much later the boost comes on compared to the twin turbo 2.7. How is the turbo lag compared to the twin turbo and what would you say is the useful power band? Thanks!

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Not yet, but will soon. I can hit 23 psi by 3k RPM in higher gears, I would not call it laggy. Most of the STK 2.7T guys run PTE6062 or bigger because they want to make 600+ HP. It makes sense because IF you are going to single turbo a B5 / B6 / B7, you might as well go big. If you are only after 400-500 HP twin setups are more sensible on that chassis. My goal was to make this setup simple, and single was far easier to fabricate.

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Thanks for coming on and answering questions...!!! Does the heat exchanger in wheel well use an electric fan..? What is the bottom line for the least expen$ive 2.7t $wap a DIY could expect, with no frills or extras, just the basic running good, $wap.

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No, as of right now, we do not run a fan on the heat exchanger. It really does not need that much cooling with the driving that I've done on the street or track. If you visit our website, we do have full pricing there. In terms of costs outside of our kit, its really just a 2.7T and the refresh cost of that, which is probably around $2k.

Really interesting stuff, I've been thinking about an elective rebuild for years and its just hard to get the motivation up for the $30k+ at this point, this seems like a really compelling option. Does the oil level sensor in the dash still work after the swap? On the 996 its a level+temp sensor, I'm curious if tapping the wire at the DME for oil temp will still work after the swap. As far as finding a local shop to do the swap and then maintenance going forward, since its audi engine its at least not too far afield from porsche but would it be better to look for an audi shop with porsche experience or a porsche shop with audi experience?

Does this swap work with a Tiptronic transmission?

Hello all. In looking for a car for this Audi 2.7 swap I purchased a 2003 996 C4S from a local porsche dealer. Originally I was expecting to find a pretty rough 996 for this project, but what I did get was an extremely nice C4S. Aside from engine issues, It's shockingly nice with just 2 rims with light curb rash, and bald tires. I have encountered an issue with my plan though. I spoke to Keith from KMH (he was very knowledgeable, and a pleasure to speak with), and it seems that the Audi 2.7 swap is only available for the 6 spd manual transmission. Unfortunately I require this 996 to be tip/auto. So.... until such time as it is available (if ever) for the tip/auto trans, my newly acquired C4S will probably go down the route of engine repair, or replacement. I have to be honset, i was disappointed that the swap is not available for the auto as i was really looking forward to starting this work in weeks. I believe this to be an amazing project. Perhaps the guys at KMH will have something for auto trans in the works soon? My C4S looks to have (very preliminary diagnosis) a stuck valve in #5 cylinder (No compression, and 100% leakdown). I guess I have to dive into that, and look at other engine threads. I will keep looking out for the Renn2.7 Audi 2.7T swap for the tip/auto transmission 996 ! Cheers, Michael

I don�t know why you couldn�t use the 722.6 transmission that is in the car, and get a standalone controller from I believe ofgeardk it�s a great standalone, and the 722.6 is a pretty good transmission. Not sure about adapting the converter to the Audi, but it may not be that difficult.

Curious what problems in using a 722.6 transmission for the swap..? Just curios of the details that prevent the swap.

When I looked into a standalone controller for the 722.6 Mercedes trans I found this: https://ofgear.dk/ Seems like it would work. You would need to treat the car like a manual gearbox car though because the controller doesn't seem to communicate with the instrument cluster. So in essence you would have the 2.7 swap acting like it was in a manual car and the 722.6 ofgear swap acting like it was a standalone automatic trans.

I have one and it�s fully automatic and adjustable as well. You can make it a paddle shift if you wish it�s a great unit

Here is a video to show what its like to work on the car once its a 2.7t swap. You Tube

I love this idea! Hopefully one of these days a good deal happens to pop up on the local facebook marketplace.

OK, I have a cable throttle 99 C2 and have asked Carlton at Renn27 about adaptability and they are reportedly working on a circuit board for the DME so that I can add a DBW throttle to my car and enable the swap. I�d really like a Mezger turbo, but they have become a bit out of my price range, so this swap comes at a good time�I wish there were some first adopters here to get some feedback on real world operation. My great running M96 motor with 76k miles should bring $8-10k, which basically pays for the conversion kit�.so I just get a low mileage B4 TT Audi motor and refresh and I�ve got a 450hp 996 for about $5k plus my labor to install! I am eagerly awaiting the word on the DME I can use on my 99 to get this going!!

A very interesting project and my hat is off to the founder of the concept. I, however, do not have very good experience with Audi. Audi's concept of engineering is compact, tight, and lots of power. That makes for a really difficult car to work on. Adding to that the non-reliability of all the Audis I have touched, I tend to not own them for myself. But, I get it. You are a racer, a tuner, a wrench turner and you love Audi. Go for it. I love Porsches and Ferraris, I rather spend my time working on them.

Any updates on feasibility for use with Tiptronic from the Renn 27 guys? And…has anyone made this swap work with a standalone 722.6 trans controller? Does anyone know if the flex plate can be adapted to the Audi without too much difficulty? It sounds like the Audi bolts up to the Porsche bell housing. I think there’s a market for this swap for Tiptronic cars. I love the idea that there’s no chassis butchery or electrical harness mods. This is a swap I’d try vs LS.

I would be all in if there was a tiptronic swap.

100% if this was tiptronic compatible, I woudl be in as the rebuild and unknown longevity of the 4.0Lt route seems painful...And then there is the Porsche tax

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I did it with an ls1 and the 722.6 with ofgear stand alone. I had to make the converter hub and flex plate attachments.

Still waiting to see some dynometer results from Carlton & Keith on the test car which was planned for sometime in May. This still intrigues me, but I’d love to see some hard numbers as well as some mileage reliability results to feel a bit more confident about this not-so-minor motor swap…..especially since my M96 is running great at 80k mi, and just passed a borescope inspection……still waiting on the results of my 1st oil analysis from Blackstone labs.

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Sounds like from your recent M96 engine analysis a perfect time to sell it to defer the cost of a swap. You can likely get $10K for it, I did.

Yeah, my thinking as well....the Porsche motor would pay for the conversion kit...why'd you sell yours? LS swap??

If somebody wants me to do one of these swaps into a 722.6 Tip car - and provides the car and buys the parts - I'll do it. I have a pretty good idea of what it's going to take: Change the ECU/cluster to a manual trans version, use the standalone 722.6 controller, adapt the flexplate or use an Audi flexplate. The M96 uses an Audi transmission bolt pattern so bolting up the trans should be the easy part.

The LS swap basically requires cutting the sheetmetal under the engine bonnet, to make a bit more room, you'd be in for work to reverse it. However, if some smart should figured it out, putting a Gen5 GM 4.3 V6 in there,, they are 300HP stock. Decent cam some head work and a HP tuners tune and you'd have a rocket, just have to sort the ECU to the porche dash like that guy that does the LS setup has. maybe put a turbo in where each Porsche muffler went..

The beauty of the Audi 2.7tt swap is no metal cut, no wires cut & completely reverseable…and uses Bosch ME7 engine management….same as the 996!

any more updates on people using the renn27 kit?

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Very interested in this swap as well. 140K 996 C4 Tiptronic owner, looking at options for the future. My engine is healthy still "knock on wood" but I would like to explore this 2.7T swap for my Tip car and put some power down. Bump for the TipTronic owners!

Just checked the Renn27 Facebook page and no posts there since May….may have to email Keith and see what’s up…they were supposed to post a dyno run this summer but never did.

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so I am in the process of the swap. Not sure if anyone is further than me. So far they have been great and always responded in a timely manner. I knew going into it that the kits were not mass produced and it would take some time. so far I have the stock engine out and have been working on prepping the 2.7. Played with my buddies dry ice blasting equipment and really cleaned things up. I will be doing an in depth write up once I get a little further along.

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Hopefully you don�t go through a lot of engines trying to get a good running engine. Swaps can be costly. I wouldn�t ever try anything but an LS swap myself.

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not sure the logic of that comment. The LS has its share of issues as well. Like with any used engine you have to do proper investigating and make sure it�s solid. Then you have to do the proper maintenance. This particular 2.7 only has 47k miles. And I am doing ALL timing and wear items. And it will cost me nothing at the end of the day because I parted the rest of the car out.

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Please keep us updated on progress! IMESHO the 996 is well on its way to becoming the ultimate "outlaw" Porsche.

Hey, glad to see an actual person doing this swap! Thanks for posting here….did you get a chance to drive the prototype? Did you get the complete kit yet, turbo, etc? I am still waiting to see if they have completed the adapter board for the ECU for cable throttle ‘99 cars.

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Yea, just saw a swapped 997 for sale for $80K..lol Car has been repainted, engine swapped ( with body cut), lots and lots of aftermarket parts on it.....makes a $40 FSI engine seem like a deal of the century...

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What are the part costs of refreshing all timing and wear items? I am trying to understand the total cost to perform the swap(as a non-mechanically inclined person). My current "math" 10k swap components from renn2.7 1-2k for a 2.7engine. ??? refreshing 2.7engine 6k labor in engine R&R It looks like all in 20-25k plus the cost of a 996. A running 996 motor will be worth at least 5-10k. So that would be 15-20k to do the full swap.

Any shop recomdations in the Bay Area that would do this swap?

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Interested in this as well

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I don't know if I'd let any shop in the Bay Area do this swap, there just aren't that many funny swapped cars here (lack of widespread expertise) and labor rates are high to boot. If it were me I'd ship the car to Renn27. Costs extra up front but the time saved from having the institutional knowledge easily pays it off and then some. Am going through exactly this right now with my BMW, I shipped the car to North Carolina where a shop well-versed in throwing LS's into E34's is tackling a new K20C1 swap we're co-developing.

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I'm not sure what Porsche's you are working on but the best selling modern Porsches are VWs and Audis in wolfs clothing.

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My personal view is that some of the greatest engines and cars ever to be built did not " sell " well to the masses , and therefore went into the abis.... I don't think the 2.7 Audi falls into this category, but it is a neat and economical swap concept and stays in the Porsche/Piech family tradition sharing/homogulation....

Have any rennlisters actually completed the swap? If so opinions of the renn2.7 kit? I was talking to someone the other day and they said they were hearing about integration issues with the ECU, but the person wasn't able to provide details so it might be nothing.

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Their conversion/swap is a proven setup and has produced gobs of power in dynometer tests. The only “ECU integration” issue is with the early cable throttle cars like mine, which will require an additional board to match the needed throttle signal to the Audi ECU. Still on the fence about this…….the attraction of 450+ hp in my 3100 lb 99 coupe is undeniable, but my car is running strong with 80k, continuing great oil analysis, oil particulate inspection, and shiny clean bores, keeps me from jumping on this…..if I needed a new motor, I’d be on the phone ordering the kit now, and pushing Kieth to get the throttle cable board finished, which he has promised to do for the first person with an early car to step up.

Hey guys, we DO have the '99 cable throttle up and running in a car currently, and EVERYTHING works. AC, cruise, all dash functions. We also now have the 997 complete, just waiting to road test.

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Oh boy, now the agonizing decision process starts again! The wife and I are planning a trip east later this summer, so I�d love to get a ride, Keith! Mark P

Oh, yeah, @joemoy29 how is your swap coming?

I'll be doing the Renn27 swap hopefully late summer. The exhaust portion of my kit is being made. I will post when the process starts. It will be going in an 02 Targa. Something in the cam chain housing let go and blew a hole in the side of it. At 74k miles. We never dissassembled to verify the cause of the failure.

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Thanks for that...we will follow your progress for sure! In regards your engine failure, did you experience any rattle noise on cold startup? I do get some occasionally, but it only lasts a few seconds, but is concerning......if I "drive to failure " my great running M96 will go from a $10k used engine to a nearly worthless boat anchor! Or it could go another 100k miles relatively trouble free.....too bad my crystal ball quit working!

I�m not sure on the start up noise. It was a customers car that left it for dead. I purchased it to do the Renn27 swap. From what I remember he was sitting, idling when it went bang.

Anyone got any updates on the Renn27 builds? I see Derrick Hedley did a cable throttle but I have not heard anything from him. @Derrick Hedley

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I just saw this forum, but I do have a 1999 996 tip convertible with engine failure ive been thinking about swapping. Do you know how to do the full conversion?

Also interested. It appears the swap kit is now $15K - considerably more than it was at the beginning of this thread.

Hey guys, I'm one of the founders of Renn27! We have evolved the kit into something that is very inclusive, complete, and professional compared to our early production a few years ago. Many parts are machined and well engineered and it shows. We have turned out a few more in house builds this past year as well as supported a couple more customer builds that are now up and running. Best to follow our social media on instagram @Renn2.7 and youtube to keep up with the latest content https://www.youtube.com/@renn27

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Yeah. It isn't really a budget swap when it comes down to it. If you do the turnkey package, it is probably equal in price to getting Slakker to do a Hartech 4.1L build on the M96. I think you would also get a ton more resale value doing a M96 build than a 2.7T swap if you ever thought of selling the car at some point.

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Can you even go 3.4 - 4.1L? The only 3.4L upgrade I saw on their site was to a 3.7. I don't see how that's worth it unless you are just die hard keep it Porsche.

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Our setup makes roughly 500hp and 500tq. AND a ability to do MORE if desired. 4.1 won't do that. And if it fails, all that $ down the drain. 2.7t engines can be had for $800.

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If we sourced our own motor and had it shipped to you to go through and update, would that knock some cost down? I mean cause if you're finding motors on ebay and buying and then putting an upcharge on it, hell I can do that part myself.

I find myself secretly hoping my M96 dies.

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It just doesn't have any ***** under 3000 RPM. I get it ... on the track yada yada yada. 100mph is 100mph is 100mph though. If the car is set up to track, you carry the speed throughout regardless of the car. I didn't buy mine strictly to track. I love the aesthetics and how it handles on the street. I do like the sound with the right exhaust setup. It IS fun to drive in stock form. It just needs more ***** for doing all the stuff *I* like to do - hard acceleration on on-ramps, from stop signs etc - you know, like the new Porsches. I just don't have $100K+ to drop on a second car right now, nor do I particularly want to. Less than $50K all in (car+motor+suspension) for what I would consider a perfect all around (non-DD) car is hard to beat. Classic car insurance to boot. Still, I'm kinda leaning LS3. Just watched a clip of a Chavis LS3 swapped 997 doing auto-x and it sounds amazing. I don't feel it's out of place for the car at all.

If you don’t care on optics then go LS3 the torque alone would make me do this swap the price of the Audi kit is too close to slakker or LS3 setup as for me if my engine goes it’s either at a BBQ or I’m getting a dealer stock motor

For what it's worth I have a B5 S4 Stage 4 and love that little damn thing... it'd be a really interesting swap.

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Agree, I�m sure it is awesome! I had a red B5 S4 for a short period of time. I enjoyed it. I was just too scared to do anything to it. I definitely didn�t have the funds at the time to fix it if something happened.

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If you wanted to bring your own motor for an install, that's perfectly fine

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Sorry if I am coming off as talking down on the 2.7T swap. I think it is a really cool option, and if you value horse power, it�s probably a solid route to go. It keeps you in the VAG family instead of having to make a lot of mods for an LS engine. But for me personally, I would have bought a turbo (or a C5/6 Corvette) if I wanted to collect speeding tickets in 2nd gear. I think that a 4.1 build on the M96 gets you some of that low down torque that the stock M96 is missing while retaining the unique characteristics of the flat 6 engine.

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I think you make a good point but my S4 makes 460whp with stock internals that is made for boost with an extremely high ceiling with forged internals and 2.8 heads, there are many examples making 700whp with Tial 550s. The only real issue is specific to the Audi in having to remove the full front end to service service sections of the engine. While I'd personally opt for a 4.1 simply because I can afford it, the 2.7 can be a monster when paired with the right turbo for less and be durable in the process.

Appreciate the development of the swap. The more options the better. I say this as a huge Audi fan and owning 10 Audis over the past 30 years. Fwiw, as a guy that has been tracking his 996.2 for 20 years and instructing students on the track with the PCA, the sweet spot for the 996 platform is most likely an extra 80-100 HP/TQ. You can get that with a robust M96 rebuild, as well as with an Audi, LS, and Honda swap. Your call as an owner. But keep in the back of your mind that an extra 150-200 HP/TQ would most likely be uncontrollable on the street and track on the standard 996 C2 platform. The reason is that we don't have the advanced stability management computer systems like the 991 and 992, nor do we have the wide rubber stance to handle it. So you better know how to drive. There is a reason why the 996 GT2 is affectionately called the widow maker. So you have to consider substantially widening the stance of the 996 to get huge rubber on it, as well as get some driver instruction on the track to learn how to drive, as well find the stickiest 200w tires that you can find for driving it around town. That means tires that are sticky from a cold start like the RE71RS as an example. You are dead meat on street tires with 500+ hp in the 996 platform. Yep, there is a reason why Michellin eliminated their original Pilot Sport Cup tires over a decade ago. They were like driving in ice until they were warm. And one too many Porsches and other super cars found themselves wrapped around telephone poles. Independent of my comments above, I think the Audi swap is pretty cool and applaud the guys for developing it. There is definitely a market for it. For sure, the swap may be cheaper than getting an M96 rebuild, and can give you substantially more power. But you also have to spend the money to make sure your chassis can safely handle all of that extra power. Just food for thought.

Not sure I agree with Glen above, my 420hp/420tq 996TT is a very easy car to drive even on 200tw street tires and with the FWD deleted and PSM disabled. Stay away from the cheap tires and don't get excessively stupid and it should not be a problem.

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Agree with you. I am talking 500-520+. Sweet spot IMHO for our platform is 400-420. Light weight, no nannies except an LSD and good suspension set up and sticky tires. It's utopia.

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I second the above 100%. And will add the following data from the m96 hp thread. 80-100hp increase for a m96 is very optimistic imo. Only a very few special very special LN or Hartech builds, maybe up to $70,000?) even approach 80-100+ hp, only 2 out of maybe 30 builds on the hp thread that come close to 80hp+. Although been a huge improvement in builds over the last couple decades... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post19130971 jmo

You guys think I am arguing against the audi swap. I am not. I am all for it. What I am suggesting is that everybody's eyes get real big around a 550 HP/Tq engine that can be inserted in a 996 body. For sure its pretty cool. What I am suggesting is that most will wrap themselves around a telephone poll with that incredible power if they don't plan for it by (1) learning how to drive, and (2) getting enough rubber on the car. 550 HP/TQ in a 996 chassis w/o the sophisticated nannies of a 991 or 992 is asking for trouble. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I say do it!

That�s a good point GC996. The narrowbody C2 will lose the rear easily with the additional torque, so adjustments to driving style and suspension setup is necessary to accommodate. It might be best to start with a widebody 996 and perform a RWD conversion if you�re intent on a high-horsepower 996.

I certainly like the innovation, development and competition that's occurring in the 986/987/996/997 M9x space with new product solutions, rebuild methodology & options, as well as swap programs. The more solutions and options the better for all of us. Lets not forget that there are ~ 500,000 986/987/996/997 m9X cars sold around the world which means there are alot of folks that need solutions for 20+ year old cars. These cars are Porsches not Camrys. Which means the vast majority will stay on the road. Toyota Camrys have a limited life and will eventually get squeezed into a metal square. Not many Porsches. I wouldn't be surprised if a few more engine builders and swappers didnt enter the market in the next few years creating more competition. Someone has to supply solutions to the 500k cars that are aging. Think about that for a second... 500,000 M9x engines. What an incredible market for an entrepreneur! I do not lose any sleep over the future of the 996. We will have more viable solutions than we will know what to do with. Yeah, and with the advancements comes more HP/TQ than most can safely handle.

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Bravo! Just do it. If you know about the history of German automakers, there was a lot of sharing of engineering, components, people, and production across the makes ( think in 190E and 500E Benz, of Fuchs design for many vehicle makes). So a swap is par for the course. I love that Porsche is one of the few companies that seem to have a strategy to support all of it's cars ... forever, through their Porsche Classics business unit. That tells me that they intend to keep these on the road for a long time. As we see more companies try to figure out the electric thing, I think that you'll see more of these types of swap options for those of us that believe that one good approach to being sustainable is ... instead of digging battery components out of the ground, we can keep using some of what mankind has already manufactured. Bravo for the entrepreneurship behind the M96 as well as the 2.7, LS, Sacrilege, K, and other swaps. I recently purchased a high mileage 996 C4S. My intention is to throw a box on the roof, plan some epic trips, and use it for as much of my daily life activities as possible. I am also doing the math in my head: From what I've seen through some ownership records, engine-related maintenance can add up for the M96 to the point that an engine swap can provide a pretty speedy payback on dollars invested. Good luck with your swap decision. I'd love to see it documented here.

It�s all about the �petagree� sounds right I guess�

Some say it sounds like a Ferrari.

Here's some good sound on the dyno You Tube