Buy 996 at Auction?

I am not sure if this belongs here or not. I apologize if it belongs elsewhere. I am planning to attend an estate auction on Sat, 5/27, where a 1999 911 Carrera is listed for sale. No other info other than a few pictures. Can look at the car 2 hours before it goes up for auction. Odometer reads 21707. I have read the 996 pre-owned buyer's guide posted on Rennlist below, and other info I could gather, which brings up several concerns about potentially purchasing a car in this manner. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ing-guide.html Given that it is an auction, no PPI will be possible as I don't have someone I can take along for an evaluation. With such low mileage, how long has the car been sitting and what issues could be resident because of it? Service history and documentation? We shall see. Can it be test driven? Doesn't say and, due to #2 above, what issues could occur? Etc., etc. Bottom line, I am not sure how to go about the evaluation process in this situation. The car could be great (or not), but making a decision on look, touch, possibly drive, feels very risky. Has anyone been down this path before? Any advice? Thanks

Have they published the VIN? I just bought a 2000 with 19k from a dealer, the dealer bought it from an auction. I've since been able to slueth the PO and have a service history, BUT, the car was from Georgia and they require a state inspection that logs the mileage every year. I was at least able to determine it was driven every year from the Carfax. In my case the car was just about immaculate and I hadn't seen one in person so nice from that vintage. Unless this estate sale draws a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts and the car has a high reserve, you might be able to get it for a price where it doesn't matter.

I would not recommend it as an inexperienced 996er. Too many unknowns and you don't have the ability to evaluate it beforehand. That said, know your budget both for the car and what you can stomach for repairs. Being in an estate auction and that mileage, I'd say there is a good chance it has sat for awhile. I wouldn't crank it (which they probably will at the auction ) until I could get all its fluids changed and examined. Look at the date code on the tires, if they are over 4 years old they need to be replaced. I'd plan on $5000 (not including tires and regular maintenance) over the next year or two as things will start to break as you put miles on it. It could indeed be a good score at the right price, but it can also be a money pit. Figure out your price where it doesn't matter if it's the later (because you can afford to fix it or just walk away) and stick to that.

If I might add, the most important thing to do would be to get under the car and check where the engine meets the transmission and look for an oil leak. The popular belief is that low mileage cars that sit are most prone to IMS failure. That year should most likely have the dual row IMS and would be least prone to failure. If there is an oil leak you are going to have to make your decision on price. Iof the car is spotless, has the right color combo and options, and a service history it could go for well over $20k. An engine rebuilt could be $10k to $20k. A used engine $6-10k. If you can't determine the condition of the motor it isn't worth much more than $20k minus the cost of a motor. Check for an LN engineering sticker with a serial number under the hood or on the door jamb. If there is one it has the retrofit bearing and that could alleviate some of the IMS fear. Again, assuming all you can do is look at the car in a non-running state, you can also look under the steering wheel. The 99's don't have a glove box and the owners manual and service book can be kept in a pouch on the drivers side knee panel. MAYBE the service book is there and filled out. Check the coolant for oil and the oil for coolant. If the car sits where it has been parked check for any fluids on the ground. If you want to use a little more forensics, check the accessory belt. If it has cracks, it might indicate the PO didn't service the car in a number of years. I know I will probably get flamed for this one, but when I buy ANY used car, especially an enthusiast car, I factor in this one. Check the drivers side seat bolster. This is actually the FIRST thing I look at generically. My methodology is this; if it is in pristine shape the PO viewed the car as something special and was more likely than not to have pampered the car. A worn bolster tells me they either didn't give a crap, not knowledgeable about cars, or were too lazy to give that little bit of effort to avoid sliding across the bolster when they got in. If they didn't give a crap about that one easy action, how did they feel when it came time to do something a little more difficult, like servicing the car? The date code on the tires can also indicate how long it has been since it was last in service. 911 tires, especially the rears, don't last long. The date code should give you the year and week of manufacture. If the car has old tires and good tread depth it would indicate there haven't been many miles since the tires were new, you can extrapolate from there. Two other things, if you want, spend $25 on a coolant and brake fluid tester. You could easily test both in under a minute to further evaluguess the service history. Look at the shape of the coolant expansion tank on the left side of the engine (when standing behind). These are prone to cracking. I've seen some that look absolutely brank new and some that are yellowed and brittle looking on lower mileage cars. under the front hood is the options sticker. That and the several decoders online will tell you the car's options. The last thing I can think of would be to bring a mirror and flashlight. Use it to check everything from the IMS leak, dry rotted bushings, the radiator hoses in the front, and even the paint condition.

Lastly, be methodical and not emotional. There are many 996's out there. A 99 with 21,000 miles has a certain value, maybe $22-24k in pristine shape depending on options. You can always buy one with a service history for that number. If I were doing this I'd subtract for every unknown. Right off the bat, if zero service info is available and you can't even determine if the car runs, I'd figure $6-10k off that price. Needs tires due to wear? Subtract another $1000, and so on. Again, you can buy a different one with a history and relatively known condition if you are paying top dollar.

If you could get it cheap and it's in awesome shape, I would go for it, no questions asked.

We expect pictures and a report back or it didn't happen.

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The car is 18 years old. Doesn't have too many miles but time will have started to take its toll. With no chance to give the car a thorough used car check out which includes a test ride then a test drive my advice would be to give the car a miss. But you probably won't. So what you can do is research the car's wholesale/trade in value and attend the auction and inspect the car and if you see no signs of any accident damage, rodent damage -- check for rodent trash on top of the engine and if you can see these on top of the plastic panels that run along the bottom of the car -- see if you can get the car close to its wholesale/trade in price or some reasonable amount above this. But I wouldn't pay too much above wholesale/trade-in, maybe not even 5% above. If you get the car -- and I doubt you will if you stick to not paying too much above wholesale/trade in -- I would not plan on driving the car home -- assuming the engine even starts/runs (frankly I would not "risk" testing this) but instead arrange to have it flat bedded to a qualified shop to have some preliminary work done. I'm thinking a full round of fluids: engine oil/filter; coolant; brake/clutch fluid (if manual); Tip fluid/filter; even the windshield washer fluid. Tires are probably due to be replaced due to age. If the car has been parked just a few months perhaps the fuel is ok. Otherwise have the tank emptied of the stale fuel -- assuming the car hasn't been parked so long the fuel has jellied up -- and filled with fresh fuel -- 5 gallons or so. Since you probably won't know when (or even if) the plugs have been changed have the plugs changed. Replace the serpentine belt. Replace engine air filter and cabin air filter. Replace the battery. Be sure the body water drains are free of any trash build up and while you are there have the radiator ducts cleaned out. Then just drive the car but keep a close eye on any signs of issues. This can range from a leaking water pump, RMS, soft radiator hoses, and so on and deal with these as they come up. Really though if this car has sat any length of time even if you get the car for its wholesale/trade-in value the car will not be a bargain and could be a money pit as you bring the car up to date on all its servicing and then address the issues that the ravages of time and lack of regiular use have wrought.

Basically you are taking a huge risk because you are hoping to acquire the car dirt cheap. So your choices are acquire the car cheap - $10,000 or less or forget it. If you were willing to pay a "normal" price which might be between $15k - $20k, you could have the car inspected, take a long test drive, etc. Since you can't do that with the estate sale, paying anywhere near market rate makes no sense at all. I might add if acquiring a Porsche 911 stretches your budget, RUN RUN RUN in the opposite direction. This is NOT the car for anyone who doesn't have $5,000 in cash ready to burn with no regrets whatsoever AFTER purchasing a vehicle that runs and drives as it was designed to do, consistent with age and mileage.

Thanks all for the great info. I will check everything I can. No VIN published on it with the auction notice. I am willing to part with the funds for repairs assuming I can get it for the right price (cheap) as many have said. I was assuming $4k-$5k to get it up to date, so good to see I am in the ballpark. The idea of engine replacement is concerning. Unless it rings all the bells, I will be reluctant to jump. Here are a couple of pics that were posted.

Be sure to check out that sticker to the left of the Mobil 1 sticker. I don't have that on mine. One of my comments was the coolant expansion tank. I'm not saying that the one on that car is bad, but it is yellowed. Here is a pick of mine for comparison, my car is a 2000 but it has the same miles:

Carfax can run by license plate. 40 records. probably worth buying the report. if the link works https://secure.carfax.com/creditCard...&affiliateId=0

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That's funny, I tried the same thing and it didn't work for me.

Just curious, where is this car located? I'm in NWI.

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These last two pics tell the story for me. The layer of dust on the interior says that it has sat for a good period of time. Looks like maybe cobweb remnants in the driver footwell? The grime on the steering wheel airbag cover suggests that it was not well cared for even when it was driven (note: we've had our 01 since new, barely do anything to clean it, and it doesn't look remotely that bad inside). Given the state of the interior I think what is in the engine bay is simple dust rather than road grime. This also suggests minimal (if any) use in the last year or more. Sitting is bad for these cars mechanically. I think this car has been sitting and rotting for the last few years. I would only take this on if I could get it for roller money (5-7k) as it is going to require lots of love, attention, and money over the next few years to get into proper shape again. Long periods of idleness like this car seems to have seen also give rise to rodent concerns. It only takes one wiring harness to have been nibbled on to make life a living hell. This is NOT a first timer's car in my opinion. You need to be prepared mentally and financially for this to be a project car. You can always get lucky, but I wouldn't bet on it. At least not without understanding what "German project car" really means.

Pay only the "Roller" price. Ask here what that would be.

This situation has very little to do with the asset(car) and almost everything to do with your willingness to risk. Do you like to gamble? Do you get a rush when something really good turns up? Can you smile and clap if it all turns to shilt? Here's my 2 cents on it. ANY auction place that won't let more than 2 hours to inspect, and for a vehicle/machine will not allow it to be run, driven, operated as intended then it's basically scrap or in car parlance 'roller' value. I might go $9k on it, but there will be some eager big-eye guy there that just GOTTA HAVE IT, and will bid it up to ~$15k. Been there, done that, got the coffee cup. Don't be that guy....

Always Wanted 1....the car is in Southern Indiana, Floyds *****. At this point, I may just go to satisfy my curiosity. It is close by my home. I don't mind putting some work and $ into a car, but I am not looking for a project car.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...our-motor.html

Interesting: http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/au...gi?lid=2908650 Seems like the guy who (died?) was into model aircraft, from the description: "REMOTE CONTROL PLANES 10+ Large remote control planes includes masterfully constructed yellow military WW1 biplane with wooden Master Airscrew propeller and twin cylinder engine, blue military WW1 biplane, P-39 Airacobra model plane unassembled in original box, several other planes under various levels of construction (2) Futaba Skysport 6 controllers, (3) Futaba Skysport 6A controllers, (2) Futaba Conquest controllers, Saito airplane motor (Retail price $164.95), Universal DCC power station (Retail price $289.98) large selection of plane parts and accessories, (10+) Faller model buildings new in the box and other misc modeling tools and accessories. " IMO guys who create model planes like that are sticklers for detail and taking care of things all mechanical and oily, unless the 911 has a big problem and so was parked up to 'repair later' I'd say its a good gamble if the price is right If I were local and seen that auction before I bought my car I would have bid on it..

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the problem is, how long was it sitting? I'msure we all want to know what this thing goes for, let us know. It's at the exact opposite end of my state, so I won't be attending.

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Good point, if the engine had intermix and water got into the cylinders then there will be big problems. Or if oil in the coolant tubes and rotted the rubber hoses out same. I think pretty much you can consider all these 996's as project cars, its just how much of a project are you buying? depending on what condition they are in and how many miles they have it varies but there is no way you want to buy a stock 996 and drive it unless you check a bunch of stuff and fix some things on it. These aren't 5 year old Honda's. They are 17-18yr old porsches with somewhat questionable designed parts in them

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Hmmm, the plot - as they say, has thickened. I agree that RC plane folks are pretty ****. Might make me rethink my high bid. As said above though, I would NOT turn the engine over until a lot of stuff were done. I might even do the IMS before starting it.

I'm little bit of a gambler and I might be willing to pay a little over "roller" money, but it wouldn't matter. Remember that the auction company gets a commission on the final sale price, so it is in their best interest for the car to "sell" at a high price. They may have worked out a deal with a car dealer who is willing to pay a certain price and they will have someone in the crowd bid it up to that price. There may be one or more family members who want to buy it from the estate. There may be two guys in the crowd with more money than sense. It is highly unlikely you will get this car for roller money, the auction company will make sure of that. My experience is that you will attend the auction and walk away thinking "wow, I didn't think it would sell for that much". It is rare in these days of the internet that you get a bargain on an expensive item that is relatively easy to flip.

IMS bearing will definitely be a dual row on a '99 model. Agree that no chance to inspect it is scary. Also, you will need to change all the fluids right away. Probably tires, too. Still, I'd go up to $13,000 on it.

Now that you have a good idea of the value, you should ask them how much they will pay you to drag that sad, roached out, vermin filled, scrap heap to the crusher. Don't accept less than $1,000 and make sure that your tetanus shot is up to date before you get too close to it.

The simple fact is, buying a 996 or any Porsche at an auction is risky business. That said, folks that know how to inspect cars - I thought I read that you have two hours to look over the car - is an awful long time to get under it, around it, on top of it. A physical inspection along with a test drive and some historical data on the car can go a long way towards knowing what you're in for. It's like detective work. Some are good at it, some are not. There's risk either way. Folks are able to buy these 996s at auction for $9000-$13000 and then perhaps money or time to bring them up to resale condition. This is how dealers make money. Either you're into that game or you'r not. For the really savvy 911 buyer, I would almost certainly not exclude the possibility of picking a car up at an auction. Don't forget, the car aside, there's a whole strategy and game to the auction itself.

Check out the condition of the wheels too, from your picture. I'll bet this car hasn't been cleaned, inside or out, for awhile. Not something that would comfort me. I've never seen a coolant tank that yellowed. Suspect, for sure, but I suppose could still be OK. $10,000 MAX.

Well, many of you were spot on. I knew ten minutes in that I would not be bidding unless the bids stayed low. Car was not clean (floorboards filthy, brake dust caked on rims), multiple door dings on both sides, paint damage on right rear, tires looked shot. Mangled Porsche tag on the front end(?). Always Wanted 1...you mentioned checking the driver's side seat bolster. Dried, cracked, ready to pull/fall apart. Good call. Leather, in general, looked like it had not received much love. Talked to the son of the man who passed. He was not aware of any service records. Had no idea about RMS, IMSB, etc. Said he thought his dad took it in for scheduled maintenance. I heard someone after the fact say that there were some dealer maintenance items in the manual. Garage bays did not show fluids, but that could have been cleaned up. The car ended up selling for $22,600. To a twenty-something girl with her parents 'helping' her bid. The people who appeared to me to be serious buyers dropped out at about $14k. There was one guy who kept going back and forth with the girl, but stopped at $22,500. Oh well, thanks for all the great feedback. A good adventure for a few days. Will keep looking around.

So, how much did it sell for?

Not sure why my previous reply did not go through. Said something about moderator review before it would post. Many of you were correct about the car and situation. The car was not clean. The interior floorboards were dirty and cluttered. The wheels had brake dust caked on them. Always Wanted 1, you were right. Driver's side seat bolster was dried and cracked. Leather interior looked like it had not been taken care of. Talked to the PO's son. He said that he was not aware of any service records, although I heard someone say that there were some dealer maintenance entries in the manual. Son had no idea about RMS, IMSB, etc. He said he 'thought' that it had been taken in for scheduled maintenance. That is all he knew. A couple of door dings in the driver door and at least one in the passenger side. Not major but you could see them. Paint damage on the passenger rear corner. Looked like a scuff or something had grazed it, but it was obvious. Tires appeared shot. Not sure why there was a bent/mangled Porsche plate on the front. Anyway, the car sold for $22,600. To a (appeared to be) twenty-something woman whose parents were 'helping' her bid. Those in attendance who looked to be familiar with what they were evaluating bailed by $14k. There was 'that guy' who traded bids with the woman until he quit at $22,500. So, she pays $22,600 plus 7% state tax plus a 3% 'convenience' fee. Puts her very close to $25k for the car. Ugh. Thanks all for the feedback and info. A good adventure nonetheless. I will keep looking.

She going to be sadly surprised once down the rabbit hole...

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Better them than you. The nicest 996 around barely break $30K these days (gt/turbo excluded of course), so buying a pile of unknown with cosmetic defects, zero service history, and known to be sitting for a while for $24K+ makes zero sense. The last 996 estate sale care I saw around here also went for way too much. Similar story, clearly sat for several years and had some cosmetic flaws. But at least that one was a turbo. I bid what I considered to be full money on the car given the obvious things it needed and an adjustment for the unknown factor, and was outbid by a bunch. Also better them than me...

I am not surprised at all about the final price. Those kind of things happen regularly at auctions, especially the "small town" auctions where you have people in attendance that are not experts on the material. I am surprised it involved a young woman and not two guys bidding each other up. Maybe her parents are well to do and it won't be a big deal to throw another 5k at it.

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Unbelievable. Good luck and good riddance to the poor fool that paid that price. Did you find out how long it had been since it was driven last? It just goes to hsbow you fools exist. I looked for a year and bought the nicest one I've ever seen and paid about that.

Skip at 25K....like others said, 10K would be a good deal, I would no way go more than 15K.

The PO died in January, but lived in a nursing facility. Son said that his dad would switch the car out periodically with another car to drive, but he did not drive much (also means it sat outside in a parking lot some). Son said that he tried to come over about every three weeks and drive it since January.

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Talk about overpaying

PT Barnum said it best.

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"small town auctions"... In a small town (pop. 25K maybe) in MO, back in late Jan. 2015 an "estate" auction was held to dispose of my parents' personal belongings. Furniture. Couple of TVs. Some not so good stereo stuff. Dishes. Kitchen ware. 4 or 5 guns, nothing fancy and some fishing tackle. Shed full of garden tools. No vehicles. (I sold those separately.) A small aluminum fishing boat w/outboard motor and trailer. NO clothes or shoes were included in the sale.These were donated. I was there from Dec. 22, 2014 to the middle of Jan 2015 and the mid-west weather had been horrible the whole time. Auction was held on a Saturday and the weather was nice for Jan. Think it got up to the high 40's and the weather was clear and sunny. The auctioneer told me afterwards -- I was not there for the auction -- the turnout was super. He handed out over 200 bidding cards. 60+ years of their stuff - mostly junk they were not the type to spend too much on TVs stereos and such and had no antiques or collectables -- sold for around $7K. The good weather coupled with cabin fever brought out the crowd and the auctioneer did the rest. (Some curiosity was involved too as my parents had lived in that town since the early 50's and were well known.) The proceeds covered the cost of the auction and the cleaning of the houses and other things and let me stilll bank around $5K to the trust account. The auctioneer admitted to me he was a bit surprised at the outcome though he was pleased of course.

Wow. I wonder if the family has any idea how good a result that was. Good thing for them that both of those bidders showed up.

The auctioneer even commented (over the microphone to everyone) near the end of the bidding that multiple people told him the car would not bring $15k. I am sure he was ecstatic given that he gets a cut. Should have made the 'winner' sick.

Shill bidder in the crowd, got a 'live' one and milked her for about $10k. Stupid don't always mean po'.

The person who paid close to $25K for that car is a complete idiot.

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This happens more than you would think. I bought multiple items from a very large auction house a few weeks ago. I couldn't attend so I placed bids on-line. As I was watching the results, I was the high bidder at $550 with a max bid of $600. I watched as my $600 bid was bid against my $550 bid. There was no cut bid at $575, so it was just me being bid against me. Cost me an extra $60 with the commission. I can complain to the auction house, but nothing will be done. This has happened multiple times over the years, even at live auctions. I have seen experienced bidders, who are the high bidder on a particular lot, call out the auctioneer and ask him who the last bidder was that resulted in his bid being raised. Of course there wasn't one. The auctioneer would just brush it off "my bad" and restart the bidding two increments lower.

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How many people know you can get a low mileage 911 for well less than 25k? This young lady and her parents may have done some price checks on line and found multiple dealer asking prices above 20k for "similar" cars, so 25k doesn't seem that far out of line. I hope the auction house folks played up her "nice Porsche" when she took possession and made her feel good about her purchase. Ignorance is bliss.

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True. If folks knew how car dealers actually made money - with auctions being an important part - they might think twice. Then again, you can a lot of money doing your own personal fiances, doing your own home remodeling, doing your own grass cutting, etc. Some might think that $25k for a 911 is a good price. Compared to an average, it might be. But those who know - most people do not - cannot believe my car is 18-years old, or that it was 1/2 the cost of their Prius.

I think the negativity towards the buyer going on here is a bit harsh. Sure none of us that know these cars would have paid so much and we think she got taken, but really? I'm sorry she over paid through her naivety (either about auctions or the car), but I wish her the best and hope for her sake that it turns out to be a good car after a good cleaning. Hopefully she gets many miles and smiles out of it. If she does have trouble or questions, hopefully this thread will no longer be active so she doesn't get the mistaken impression that there will be no help for her here...

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No it doesn't because I KNOW it happens constantly. I used to go to 'estate' auctions. I got a feeling long ago that; 'hey, I saw that same antique sewing table last week at a different estate!' I knew stuff was shill bid and if it didn't sell, it just went on a truck, and was unloaded at the next location. I have made money at auctions, but never lost. The trick is to know who the shill is, and that can be difficult. I was at an aircraft parts auction in Dallas a year ago and bid on a prop. When the price went over $3000, I passed. Two weeks later; same prop, same box, same paperwork, different auction. I bid up to $2400, and this time I got it. After having it certified, I sold it to a guy that was desperate for $8000. Shill bidding happens constantly. Noting surprises me anymore.

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Really? I've done stupid things in the past, and owned up to making a stupid mistake. Doesn't make her a bad person, and if she does come here, maybe she'll own up to her mistake. Or - maybe we'll all retract our sentiments and decide she got a blistering, smokin' hot, deal of the century. It could happen...

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OK, who hacked into gnat's account and posted this touchy-feely crap?