She died doing what she loved. RIP 996 @ 166k miles

https://youtu.be/PctjR7OzABw Well, when say Rest in Peace, hopefully, it's temporary awaiting a new heart. (sorry, typo on the video. Should say '2016') I don't know what it could be but at 166k miles and a frequent duty cycle of the track, I'm not all that surprised, but then again, I didn't really in some way expect it right then and there either. Specifics: I didn't hear the engine noise right in the middle of the turn during maintainence throttle, but at instead at the acceleration point in the exit of the turn. I lost acceleration of course, then I saw the blinking CEL, and when you hear my comment, I turned the car off and coasted to the paddock. White smoke is coming out of the bank 1 cylinders (driver's side as the exhaust crosses over to the right) in the paddock. You can smell the oil. And it bled coolant out of the right side near the exhaust too. I haven't had the engine dropped yet but any guesses? First guess is head gasket....but I kind of probably think it's either cylinder wall. Not sure about IMS as it has right at 60k miles on LN Engineering bearing which I had installed (o.e. bearing was ok back then...it was precautionary). I'm not going to curse Porsche because this car was on the track at Laguna Seca at 1000 miles on the odometer when new and it has given me 13 years of pleasure and counting and lord only knows how many track days. It's cost a small fortune that I refuse to tally up in preventative maintanence. Probably has a small new car's cost of oil changes alone, let alone coolant flushes, brake fluid flushes. Everything else in the car works too. It's amazingly built. By far, the best car I've owned. Since it's pretty much worthless, the only course, I think is to proceed looking for a heart donor. Maybe 997.1 X51 engine but that can get spend, I presume.

Here's a Timed lap 1/2 hour before. https://youtu.be/Os4fQfL8iAM

Buttonwillow Curse. I know so many (including myself) bitten by that track. Really sorry, Dude!!

Sorry to hear that but at 166k, it's a great opportunity to rebuild and big bore it. The head gaskets almost never fail so it's more likely the head or one of the cylinders.

Bummer man First step is to get a good diagnoses (I can't help there) and then decide on your options. Maybe you'll get lucky and your motor isn't a paper weight. I believe putting a m97 in gets pricey quick. For (what I believe is) the cost, I'd think a F6I build would be a better idea.

13 years? Spectacular. If all else in the car is good it's time to send off for a rebuild and then another 166K.

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Funny you say that. My Audi blew turbos on the front straight at BW too. I love it though over WSR. Thunderhill though, is better than BW and dare I say L.S. too.

It's hard to complain about one motor with stock internals lasting 13 years and 166K miles. Good luck with the rebuild or whatever you wind up doing.

Sorry about your loss, but after 13 years and 166000 miles you got your money back and more, also you can think this is the most honorable dead, not totaled by some imbecile texting or in the middle of your commute to work, you had the chance to push it to the limit on the track and she was able to drive you to the pit stop. Consider, this is like dying having sex.

It cannot be said that you didn't get the most out of your Porsche. Other than your engine issue you got to enjoy your Porsche for 166,000 miles! Let us know what the prognosis is. KK will no doubt chime in(if he's still around) to tell you the 996s are not meant for the track.I'd suggest you had a great 13 years with your Porsche, well done!

Sorry to hear about that jyoteen.....consider making it better!

At 2:40 in the first vid, I distinctly heard Ahnold say "I schmell Coolant." "Vere are you goingk?" Keep us posted on what you decide to do.

You got a good one.

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Curious as to what you mean by this. Does it seem unusual it would have gone 166k, or what? I have 120k on mine.

You got a good one, too.

Thank you for enjoying and driving the **** out of your car, as Porsche intended. Good luck with the next leg of the adventure!

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Still never answered whether or not you are "surprised" they would last so long. Preventive maintenance, & not being a garage queen, I would expect them to, wouldn't you? Or are my "rose colored glasses" too dark, lol...

You are asking the wrong person to get the answer that you want to hear. All I deal with, and see, are failed engines. We don't do service work, and we don't have customers that come to us because they "want to".

I would have to say congratulations, weird but true. Your title said it best. Smiles per hour! Good luck on the "new" build. \\Cheers...

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Ok, all you see are the bad ones, lol.

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So, I guess it boils down to what percentage of people "got a good one." 99%? 50%? 5%? Greatly affects what is implied by "you got a good one."

Thanks OP for sharing that lap (love me some Buttonwillow! ), and commiseration on the mishap. I really hope you get a replacement engine or rebuild the current one. Love the color, that it is a sunroof delete C4S, and your track companion for all these years!

Yeah, all I know is that i was always VERY aggressive with maintainence on this car because I knew it was an expensive car. Aggressive with frequency of oil changes (before and after track), agressive with untold brake fluid purges. Aggressive with complete coolant flushes. Even changed out the water pump when it wasn't broken, AOS, all the hoses, fluids, etc, etc, etc. Definitely didn't spare any expense when it came to service and maintainence. I wasn't particularly kind when driving either. Most if not all my shifts happened above 4k rpms. I barely drove around the highway at 6th gear unless it was a roadtrip. My belief is that (maybe false trust) is that they made the car to be run. It's a thoroughbred and if you baby it, it's going to get atrophy and when you do finally decide to give it a go, it's gonna break. If you've driven around Germany at length of time, they're not kind to their cars. They're aggressive, so the car addresses it's home market first with driving style, ergonomics, how it handles, speed, etc. At least that's how i'd like to think of it. It was my daily driver, home depot car, long cross country road trip car several times. Funny enough that when I got a second car that was to become my daily driver due to daily commute, it decides to start complaining. Go figure. Maybe she just died of old age. Heart gave out, but her brain is still strong. So hopefully, I don't have to spend so much money to resurrect her. As the rest of it is completely trouble free. I even just finished a complete 4 corner caliper rebuild (just to be safe). I won't lie if I said I'm not surprised that it lasted (The Germans create the most complicated solutions to the simplest problems). Maybe I'd like to think the assemblers gave it special consideration when it was being screwed together because it was a base car, without a sunroof, so Guenther thought..."hey, this car looks like it may get driven, so I better pay attention.." My car on the first day of possession, March 3, 2003 First track event with this car, Laguna Seca (excuse the cumbersome hi-8 analog video capture setup) . last year annual birthday mountain romp:

Great looking car and you used it well. Best thing to do is drop in a fresh engine and keep it another 20 years. That is the Porsche heritage.

Just curious, any oil system related mods on the car and were you running slicks/R-comps? Regardless, I'm quite impressed it lasted that long, especially for all the track miles put on it.

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I have an X51 oil pan. Never had any engine temp problems (even tracking in the summer, but I have a theory on why not when others wich C2s do and require third radiators. Hell, I basically ran spec oil and then switched to the high mileage Mobil One 10w40 when the car hit 120k miles. No problems. Oil pressure okay (Funny that right before this track event, I replaced the oil pressure sender as it was flaking out and wanted to make sure I didn't get a false reading or it crapped out). I have heard about the whole R compound theory and oil starvation so that's why I put in the X51 pan at 96k miles. Even checked the oil RIGHT before going out before the engine went too. Oil at half. My friend and mechanic was running the track event too so I even asked him if I should add half a quart but he said to leave it. He was in the car when it went dead. That's his voice on the video with 'I smell coolant' after I shut off the car. Also I did oil changes before going to the track and then after. I did run R compounds....have been for years, well before getting the Porsche. Nitto NT01s to be exact in the 315 rear variety on Turbo hollow spokes. On the temps, I can only attribute it to doing regular coolant flushes (like totally purge). Did 4-5 of those so that equates to about once every 30k miles. One of those was forced by having to replace a radiator as the connection to the radiator broke. The turbo radiators which this car has are deeper core and larger surface area, I believe than the C2. However, since this isn't a turbo, I just think it has more cooling capacity than a C2 (and larger intakes) so I never saw anything other than normal operating temp. I've subscribed to your thread and following it and funny enough, I was commenting to my buddy to go take Jake's class last month because it would be good information to have as the girl was getting old. I know you're in social as I'm I.

Wow! Beautiful car and it sounds like you really enjoyed it. Good luck with your rebuild or re-engine. The car is certainly worth the investment.

Man, it would be hard to lose a friend like that. Lotta good times together on the track, I'm sure. Best of luck to you as you move forward.

I hate to say this but the M96/97 is really not designed for track use. The oil tends to collect at the heads under centrfugal force. Thats's why it uses two scavenge pumps at the heads trying to return the accumulated oil into the sump. Even those are not enough and that's why the x51 has an extra pickup tube on the other side of the head to pick up more accumulated oil. The stock sump late itself is also not enough but you already knew that so you upgraded to the x51 pan. Mobil one definitely is not designed for track use. However, I think one of the most basic issues is the open deck design of the cylinders that let them distort (oval) over time. Cringely's engine had 100k on it and all cylinders went oval, worst are #2 and #5 with 6 to 7 thou out of round. My guess is you lost a cylinder.

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Yeah, there is plenty of thought on to the lack of track capability with this engine design. You figure, this was the first car built to a severe cost control (When Porsche was about to close doors), so there is no doubt that extensive compromises were made. Also the first era of watercooled with the intial design, so there are unknowns there too. All cars are built that way. Even the million dollar ones. Sadly, I can't stay away from the track. It's the one mental vacation I have and cherish and finding this out after you've had the car for a bit is too little, too late. With all that said, the car is the most fun I've had. It's really a perfect car in other worlds. It's comfortable, really quick, balanced, just feels natural. Few cars achieve that (and I work for a car company). I'm curious as to what is inside of the engine. But unfortunate for me, the recent Porsche love fest with the GT3 means I can't even get into a 996 GT3 without insane buy in cost. The people who park these cars in the garage drive me crazy. And the result is that those who want to drive these cars can't because the cost of membership is ridiculous for a mass manufactured car.

I don't think it should be a shock for a car to last well over 100K miles. OTOH, for a car to last well over 100K miles while seeing extensive track time IS impressive. I don't think there is a race team out there that anticipates getting 10K, let alone 100K miles out of a race engine...

The Miata had 161k on it when I bought it, I will be stunned if that engine is in the car at 170k.

It is amazing what running an engine at 100% vs. running it at 70% will do to longevity. "Speed kills" doesn't just apply to people - those marine diesels that get tens of thousands of hours running at a couple thousand RPM would grenade in half an hour at 7,500...

Wait for the new announcement of new 991RS offered in stick, prices will soften for then old GT3 cars a bit. Otherwise, a 997.2S can be had around mid $40K which is a great value..

Sorry this happened to you but as you said, you got 161k miles out of her! I have 166k miles on mine right now and I know it can go at any time but so far I too have more than gotten my share of smiles for the investment I've made in this car. As Ivan Drago said in Rocky IV, "If he dies, he dies." That's how I feel about my car - if it happens I'll deal with it. Let us know what it ends up being and what your plan will be going forward.

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Original IMS?

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No I replaced it at I think around 120k miles. Original was fine when it was replaced though.

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That's been my view of ours ever since I found out I'm supposed to be in a perpetual mode of panic about the car. We haven't put near enough miles on it, but at 16 years of loyal and pretty trouble free service I can't complain about anything. What will be, will be and I'll deal with it at that time.

Sorry for your loss. Glad she died with her boots on though...

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So did you run R compounds for many miles before 96k before deciding to upgrade to the x51 pan? What "spec" oil did you use the whole time before 120k? Did you ever swap to a Motorsport AOS or did your stock AOS survive all those track events without issue? I also noticed in your sig that you have had your intake manifold extrude and honed. Is that right? Are you running cast intake manifolds? Sorry about your loss too but as others say, you def got your money's worth IMO. You have a very unique yellow/no sunroof combo. That would be a tough choice to let go for me if it were me. It would be great if you could swap a GT3 motor setup into a C4S. It would be very unique combo. I saw one a few months ago for sale but I'm pretty sure it's sold by now. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Answers: 1. The R compounds were on from around 40k miles or so onwards. I wanted to get a good feel with this car completely stock on the track. I am an instructor and I had a totally modified Audi before with all sorts of go fast parts, tires, brakes, suspension. I wanted to not have any of the other stuff cloud my understanding of the dynamics of this car before I went crazy on it. Plus, it had a warranty so I wanted to not screw with the car. 2. Spec meaning 0w40 Mobil 1. This is Porsche specified oil. See above. I did oil changes frequent enough (around 3-4 per year minimum) so I didn't see a reason to start diving into the black art and play arm chair petrochemical engineer. Warranty also played a part becuase coming from Audi, sneezing incorrectly voided your new car warranty. 3. No Motosport AOS. I changed my regular AOS once, but that was preventative at 96k miles because I was installing new everything at that point. Chain pads/guides, valve seats, hoses, water pump, IMS bearing, expansion tanks, AOS, etc, etc, etc. About 10k of work then 4. I have to look back but maybe i'm mistaking it with valve guides. Where did you see the GT3 engine installed in a C4s? This intrigues me but I can imagine the cost is astronomical. But what is required? Just DME and Engine? Do you have a link or contact person's info? Indeed, it would be kind of awesome.

There was an article in Excellence magazine awhile back about a Boxster with a GT3 engine transplant in New Zealand I believe, and at the end of the article, it was concluded that he had more into the conversion than if he bought a GT3. And it took about 2 years to complete.

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I wonder if it would be easier and more inexpensive to just have Flat 6 build you a track-oriented 3.8 using an M96 block. Sure it won't have the race-proven components but I'm sure it would be a lot more reliable than a stock M96 and wouldn't need such extensive modification to make it work.

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Only problem with this is it's still a m96 base and no warranty if tracked. Still a good option considering all the known weak points will be addressed. Sorry to not be clear, I didn't mean there was already a c4s gt3 setup out there, so you'd most likely be the first. Saw a low mileage gt3 setup for a steal a few months ago. Can't recall the exact price but entire engine/tranny/ecu/harness was under 20 for sure. I'm not sure if you'd have to replace any crossmembers and such as I've never personally done it.

Great post title for an unfortunate end to your 4S. I know you've been tracking her over the years and getting the most of out the car. Good for you man... I lost my engine as well 4 years ago possibly due hard tracking but no way to tell for sure. I can tell you that it was worth spending the money to rebuild the engine if it is a candidate. I'm sure I've put more money into my car than its worth but she isn't worth much without an engine. I would at least consider a 3.8/4.0 resleeve.

This deserves a front page tribute as well... https://rennlist.com/articles/watchi...tic-swan-song/

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Not a racer, here, but did an LN-based re-sleeve and bore out from 3.4l to 3.8l (MY2000). Any residual interest in a turbo disappeared (the Fister exhaust helping a great deal). Seems that the Raby-based or similar professional effort (inclusive of better oil pressure management and top-end work) would provide all you would need for tracking - the cylinders, forged pistons, forged con rods (and ceramic IMS) are impressive stuff. The result (even absent the oil pressure upgrade for one not intending to track the car) is the essence of a 911 -- elemental, analogue, simple, lightweight and robust. Fast, too.

My thoughts are to get it re built, but not by Jake Raby, not after those sarcastic comments. He sure knows how to alienate potential customers. Telling a customer they got a good one, when he makes his living out of re building the engines is beyond belief. What a plonker.

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Apt description of a project car. Never again will I be foolish enough to own another.

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If the truth hurts then just bury your head in the sand. I have seen plenty of m96 and m97 engines end life prematurely. He did get a good one.

166k miles, more track days than the owner could count, the majority of shifts over 4k rpm....you sir got everything this car had to offer... you should not feel one bit of loss, you got everything and more out of this car. So it cost a small fortune, greatness ALWAYS comes at a high cost. You drove this beast 166 THOUSAND MILES.

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So I take it you're satisfied with the end result? I'm really interested because I too have about 167k miles on my car. So inevitably I'm going to need a rebuild or refresh in the near future. I've always been a proponent of upgrading when given the chance instead of just rebuilding. How much of a bump in power did you realize with the upgrade? Still usable on the street I assume?

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What makes you think that? I take it that you never saw the guy with 250k+? We should all have the mindset of OP and try to drive our cars as much as possible til the death. I would really like to see other cars in the 200k+ mile club.

Thank goodness its not NA 13 Year Old Garbage - it would be in a Scrap Yard RUSTED downn to Zero Rebuild it to what u think it should have been From the Beginning!! F Porsche Approach Build it the way you want it to be from this day forward ..call it a Tribute. New day. New Oppurtunity!! pm sent TJ

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Oh trust me I still drive my car every day and I don't exactly baby it. But I'm cautiously optimistic. I'd love for my car to hit 200k+ without any issues but I'm also preparing for what could be a major refresh in the near future. So far so good though!

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I didn't take it that way. It's like asking an Oncologist about how robust the human body is. He sees the hard cases. TC

166,000 miles and died doing what you enjoyed, ... well done my friend. Well done.

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Love it -- very noticeable increase in torque, though I have not dyno'd the car. It is extremely rev happy and linear clear up to the redline -- just a blast to drive. Not an inexpensive proposition, but for someone interested in a throwback, dyed-in-the wool, fast sports car, it suits the bill perfectly (certainly much cheaper than a GT4, if one were even available). I will leave the grand touring cars to others.

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That's what I would do.....I seem to recall a guy who put a gt3 engine into a 996 c4s without too much trouble, I think he was on 6speed. C

Ill pitch in $100 bucks to bring her back. let me know if you have a paypal acct.

If you don't feel like bringing her back, I'd be willing to pitch in 8k+ for the roller

The car is still sitting with the engine still in it. I'm headed out of the country (wonder if I can ship an engine from Germany if I find it) for a couple of weeks and will pick up and hopefully drop the engine to find out what happened. I'm still inclined to resurrect it but of course that depends on the severity of the failure. I sure do miss driving it though on weekends and in the mountains. The VW TDI wagon isn't quite that satisfying....and I have to concede on the merging onto highways Maybe a stint at the Nurburgring next weekend will help quench some of the thirst

Was there ever an update on this?