24 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHAre there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Reported or suspected cause
ester based oils is
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
A problem is with ester based oils is with all this ester the oil can cause seals to swell.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Read full discussion summary
Leading evidence: 'ester based oils is' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'ester based oils is' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check on avail' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
'course, with infrequently used cars the seals still can experience shrinkage.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Use even though this base stick is highly refined
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
For a full synthetic oil one in which there is no petroleum base stock used -- even though this base stick is highly refined to the point is it more synthetic than natural -- I think you need to seek out a Group V oil.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
expensive oil) a group v oil it is
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
But if you want a fully synthetic oil (and likely an expensive oil) a Group V oil it is.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Check on avail
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
They say they have a supplier in the US on the left coast, I've emailed to check on avail.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Use even though this base stick is highly refined
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
For a full synthetic oil one in which there is no petroleum base stock used -- even though this base stick is highly refined to the point is it more synthetic than natural -- I think you need to seek out a Group V oil.
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Use of actual pao ester type oils
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
I'm wondering -- because the word 'synthetic' in AU, and Europe must mean group IV oil and cannot mean group III, has there been any studies done on the IMSB failure rates between US and other countries where there may be much higher use of actual PAO ester type oils?
Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
Coverage and how to read this overview
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
24 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261027T042512Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
Yes, I know - another oil thread. So far, I've been reading MSDS sheets until my eyes start to bleed. And so far, none of the things I've read lead me to think that there is a true PAO base synthetic avail in the US. I want a true syn oil for my 996, and if I have to import it from Stuttgart, so be it.
Someone - prove me wrong. By 'prove me wrong' I really mean 'prove' me wrong. Which would be with mfg specs, or statements and not an opinion by bubba, or some guy who knew some guy who made oil back in 04.
Sorry in advance.
Redline 5w40 ?
Pao/ester blend , but what are you trying to achieve ? What about the other additives to the base stock ? If you really want to get more scienific, try joe Gibbs (dt driven) , motul, mob 1, liqui moly , redline etc. fresh oil
Before each track weekend and do a used oil analysis after and compare results .....
Interesting Doc that it's not recommended for 4 stroke lubricant as it's on the list of approved lubricants
by Porsche.
Someone posted a link to that list within the last 6 months or so. I'll have to search for it.
There's a number of group III and group IV blends. This trend started after the lawsuit in the US allowed mfg to claim hydrocracked mineral oil to be called 'synthetic'. I'm guess here, but since the cost of the hydrocracked mineral oil base is about 30-40% the mfg cost of the ester/PAO cost, that the blends are likely 80:20, or 90:10, or 99:1 mineral:PAO. Of course, no mfg will come out and tell you what the blend ratio is as it's proprietary, but the fact is, they are in business to make money, and PAO cost more to put in the bottle. Will some vendors trade on their name and reputation? Of course they will.
So I guess I would be ok with a blended oil, but only if I was able to know the ratio of mineral to PAO, and so far no one is talking about that. I remember well the early days of Mobil-1 and their scandal with the early true synthetic(man made, esters) and some of the issues it caused. Mainly in the auto world, it was swelling or leakage past seals and gaskets. So, it's pretty easy to tell when a 'synthetic' is actually a class III because it doesn't leak where a seal may be partially compromised.
Which brings up an interesting point, and here I will use the dreaded IMSB, so one may pass this by if they don't want to hear about it. I'm wondering -- because the word 'synthetic' in AU, and Europe must mean group IV oil and cannot mean group III, has there been any studies done on the IMSB failure rates between US and other countries where there may be much higher use of actual PAO ester type oils? All I ever heard about was the settlement with US owners but if there's a correlation with higher failure rates in the US, that might be interesting.
Anything litigation-wise in the US has to do with money. Buckets, and buckets of money. Frex - I give you, the VW cheating settlement. Although the EU is very green politically the owners of the same cars in EU aren't going to get squadoosh. The syn oil lawsuit was something between the big oil giants where one of them was caught mixing in the paraffin/mineral in their branded synthetic. Lots of makers started using some version of "Syn-blahblah" in their names, but the oil was a hydrocracked mineral. The biggest pocket litigator won I presume, and since that idiocy, anything goes. Only in the US does synthetic actually mean naturally occuring but purified/hydrolyzed...
While web site touts it is a "100% synthetic oil" it relies up "sub-micronoic colloidal particles" of "graphite, PTFE and MoS2" to deliver its claimed superior performance.
I would prefer an oil that delivers superior performance because of its oil not from "colloidal particles of graphit, PTFE, and MoS2".
My info is PAO oils are seal unfriendly. Seals can shrink and leak. Additives, a bit of ester oil, is added to counter this. 'course, with infrequently used cars the seals still can experience shrinkage. The ester is of no value if it remains in the oil sump.
For a full synthetic oil one in which there is no petroleum base stock used -- even though this base stick is highly refined to the point is it more synthetic than natural -- I think you need to seek out a Group V oil. These will be ester based.
A problem is with ester based oils is with all this ester the oil can cause seals to swell. This can result in increased seal friction which could lead to premature seal failure and leaks down the road. Also, my understanding is once an ester based oil has been used in an engine it is not recommended one switch away from an ester based oil back to a PAO oil.
But if you want a fully synthetic oil (and likely an expensive oil) a Group V oil it is.
Yeah, I'm on the fence as to whether this is some mineral based snake oil or not. They sell a product without the colloidal stuff added, but the more I read, I don't see anywhere that says it's a PAO or ester based product. The verbiage is very cagy and in a lot of places it says what it's not, but hard to find out what it actually is. One statement buried in there says 'non-petroleum based' lubricant. Lots of words that don't mean anything until I can see the MSDS, and I can't find that either yet.
So whats the end goal? im trying to understand, to find a group 4 oil that is fully synthetic so you can use it in your 911? Are Motul 8100 excess and joe gibbs DT40 not good enough for your requirements?
It's in the first post. Yes, I want a 100% actual synthetic(non-petro) oil for use in my 911. As for the other oils not being good enough, I guess I want the option to decide if I would use a true synthetic, or some blended mostly petro oil. Right now, so far, I don't have the option to use a PAO.
I've got a reply from a blender that has gobs of BS about phase separation of various additives from the PAO. So far, that hasn't really been a problem for the turbine world where the PAO oil is almost universal, including additives(however, the package is quite different). Anyway, they want to sell their specific additive blend because they think they have the best goo in the world. Maybe so, but it's not what I'm looking for. Plus, the additive package for PAO base oils is typically much smaller than for petro base oils(higher VI, means fewer viscosity modifiers, etc). I'm thinking that with the past 25 years of development, most of the big houses have the phase separation issue worked out. Also, I'm also fairly certain that the seals issue has been resolved or we would be hearing about all the leaky engines in EU/AU where PAO engine oil is common. We don't hear that, and all those OWT from the 70s aren't an issue anymore. It's like the problem with old carbs and Ethanol fuel. Sure, Ethanol is very bad for legacy fuel systems, but by 1998, things were pretty much wrapped up on that problem.
