Intro and Dismay...

I've been meaning to post an introduction on the forum since purchasing my first p-car; an Atlas Gray 2004 911 C2. Car had basic options; Bose stereo, heated/power seats, and 18" wheels. Simple, just the way I wanted. Since experiencing some issues with the car since the purchase I thought I'd kill two birds with this thread... The Good: Purchased the the car in October 2016 with ~72k on the clock. The car was a two owner vehicle, with the 2nd owner putting the vast majority of miles on it (50k+). The car had a binder full of service records since new. Oil was changed every 3-5k miles. IMS was proactively done by the 2nd owner upon purchase. Coolant tank and water pump had also been proactively replaced. Anything possibly wrong with this car the prior owner had it promptly taken care of. It appears the car had been tracked a few times (track pad swap service in the records) but there were no Type 2 over revs present. Overall the car was in darn good shape compared to others I looked at and the PPI report had no major revelations. I decided I would take the plunge and buy it for $24k. Funny enough I purchased the car 2 weeks after my wedding. I was more nervous buying my first Porsche than I was getting married... go figure! The Bad: The car has consumed oil since purchase. I've personally only put about 1,300 miles on the car. The dealer I purchased from changed the oil with Mobile 1 0W-40, so I thought it best to swap with a better quality 5W-40 to improve consumption. Went with Joe Gibbs DT40. Car was still going through oil faster than the 600 miles/qt. I've seen cited on the forums as "normal". I didn't put a ton of miles on the car after the oil change as I put the car away for the winter. Now that it's back out for the spring I have been able to gather some better consumption data. I'm going through a quart of DT40 in ~200 miles. Drive side tail pipe is BLACK. There was often puffs of blue smoke out of that tail pipe at startup. Per that recent Jake Raby post on BAT, I started using LiquiMoly Jectron in the tank which helped with the blue smoke, but not consumption. All signs point to scored cylinder on bank 2 unless I missed something searching these forums. Time will tell... Car was driving perfectly fine other than the oil consumption. Pulls hard, engine sounds pretty quiet to me, and runs smooth. On a recent drive I had the check engine light come on (P2098 - Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Lean bank 2). Thinking that the oil burning is finally doing in my cats or O2 sensors (or both). Still drove fine getting back home, but I'm not driving it anymore until it's checked out. Living in Southern CT, I have a few highly regarded Indy's within driving distance, so I'm going to give Daniel Jacob's a call and hopefully drop the car off this weekend. Pretty devastated that my foray into P-cars has had such a rough start, especially after doing all the research to find the "right" car. Trying to determine the costs to fix a scored bore makes me a bit ill...

The oil consumption could also be a less costly issue, like a failed AOS and the resulting intake coated with oil mist... There is no shortage of "just buy a case of oil and keep it in the back seat" opinion on the Interweb, but that's a LOT of oil to be pushing through the engine...eventually, the cat for the dirty side is going to fail, which would still be better than hydrolocking after an especially big gulp of pooled oil. I think you're doing the smart thing...this sure feels like one of those issues where the estimated repair costs will grow in a nonlinear fashion. I'm imagining a parabolic curve with the arrow pointing toward the big end of the $$$ scale... Here's to hoping it's a fix that requires no commas.

Welcome to the madness...

I'm sorry to hear about the oil consumption. The car looks great, though. I just took the plunge into my first Porsche last week and reading things here terrifies me...

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I've been hoping (dreaming) that it can all be traced back to an AOS. I don't have any vacuum data, but removing the oil filler cap does not cause the car to stall - idle gets a tad rougher - but it won't stall. Also, the single exhaust being dirty is really the damning part in my head. I'd expect an AOS to cause both pipes to be equally dirty. We shall see...

I agree with CHN3LL. Don't assume it is a scored bore, or other very costly failure, resulting in high oil consumption. You may have a bad AOS and fouled one O2 sensor before the other side fouled. You do need to get it addressed though. Non-functional O2 sensors will cause all sorts of problems (based on my experience with other non-Porsche vehicles). I am sure the experts on this forum can tell you more. I hope it turns out to be a relatively inexpensive fix. I just purchased my 911 a couple of months ago. There seems to be a lot of posters on this site that are truly concerned about the longevity on their M96/M97 engines. I have to admit that the more I learn, the more concerned I am about my 99 996 with its original engine. I believe it has the original IMS bearing and possibly the original RMS. My car was tracked for the first 42,000 miles of its life, with a roll cage and all, but it runs great. I re-read your post and see that one side of the exhaust is sootier than the other. That is a little more concerning.

As I have learned recently, the scored cyl issue can't always(or often?) be seen with a simple borescope exam through the plug well. Apparently the damage is often further down in the swept area of the piston. So, the alternative is to drain the oil through a white rag, look for particles of metal. Then remove the sump plate and inspect the bores from the inside with the piston near the top of the throw(or partway up). This is a couple hour job, but any decent Porsche Indy mech should be able to perform it. Also, you get to look at your chain guides, and check for metal swarf with the sump plate off.

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I've been wondering that but couldn't find any definitive answers. That would certainly add some complications (i.e. $$$) to the diagnostic process.. I have been debating between Speed Sport Tuning (they did Ammo NYC's 964) and Daniel Jacob's to take the car. Both have excellent reviews, but know some people personally who have used Dan Jacob's.

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OP sorry to hear about your issues, keep as all posted. There is a very strong 996 brains trust on here that can help advise post diagnosis. Draining the oil through a sive is what my OPC does when they service my car but they use pantyhose!

I admit that it's been at LEAST a month since I've been elbow deep in the engine bay, and my urge to get in far enough to see how the AOS connects to the intake is VERY limited, but I don't recall the AOS's connection to the T being dead-nuts in the center. If it's offset one way or the other, or if the intake is canted to one side or the other, any oil that has pooled will drain to the lowest point... Sure, probably fantasy, but here's to hoping there exists a less expensive explanation for why one side is sootier than the other.

Both 0w-40 and 5w-40 oils have the same viscosity at high temps. You won't cure an oil consumption problem by a change of oil. Be aware if you drive in cold temps -- -25C or colder -- Porsche says 0w-40 should be used. The behavior of the engine with the oil filler tube cap removed is normal. With no smoking or other signs of any problems the high oil consumption is probably due to a lousy -- but not failed -- AOS. However, I would not could not recommend a premature AOS replacement. My advice would be then to just live with the condition. Carry a quart or two of oil in the front trunk -- I use a larger plastic tub so if the bottle leaks it doesn't get oil all over the trunk carpets, etc. -- and add oil when the level gets low enough to take a quart of oil. Should be every couple of tanks of fuel. Be sure you don't over fill the engine with oil. The oil level should be no higher than the max bar when you check the oil level with car on level ground and the engine/oil up to operating temperature. At some point the AOS will go bad and then you will have to replace it and hopefully as a bonus find the oil consumption has gone down.

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Run away now and never look back!

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The third option is to use a $40 Amazon manometer to verify the crankcase vacuum so you are not guessing whether the AOS is bad and you're not pouring quarts of oil into your cats (and subsequently the sky). See Ashai's DIY. Then proceed because you'll KNOW whether it's good or bad. Did you actually read the post before firing up the TomeMaster 5000? At least one O2 sensor is probably shot (or an upstream cat is on the way out), and one tailpipe is obviously burning more oil than the other per OP's OP. Up there. ^^.

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Can a "lousy" AOS cause that much oil consumption? Living with it and I'd be adding a quart and half every tank of fuel. Plus my sanity would probably go waiting for something else bad to happen. In the short term I have just been doing my best to keep the oil topped off. Also, curious, why would you not recommend a premature AOS replacement if it's on the way out?

5CHN3LL - can you link the DIY? Is this the one where you need to buy an oil filler cap and modify it with a fitting for the digital manometer? Thought about purchasing one to check it out, but the symptoms don't seem to fit AOS exactly. I'm sure it needs to be replaced at this point and it's not helping the situation, but I'm not sure it's the entire cause of the issue. I couldn't see oil in the intake favoring a bank of the cylinders. P.S. thank you for the all the replies everyone, awesome forum!

I suggest you enjoy all the theories you've read here, and now put the issue in the hands of a solid mechanic who actually has the car in front of him and can see it for himself. In terms of checking oil levels...there is more than one way to do it, according to Porsche. One way is the classic engine at operating temp, level ground, and turn off the engine and wait about 15 minutes. The other way is in the morning with the engine dead cold, before you start it. The second way is described in my 2000 Cab owners manual, and recommended by the racing mechanic/engine builder/race driver who works on my car. But it is time to stop hoping it isn't something horrible and just get in there and fix so you can go back to enjoying your car.

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It's too late, I'm stuck in the gravity well now.

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Me too. We all float down here...

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Mostly..

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That's some solid dip**** advice. "I know you came to a forum for help so my tidbit of top secret info no one had ever thought of is to take your car to a mechanic." That's some super duper insider info right there. With its weight in gold I tell ya.

Um, high oil consumption isn't good for anything in the engine. The OP has it parked until sorted out as to cause. He may have metal going through the engine which can make the job way, way more expensive later.

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Lol.....Got "It"

Don't feel great about driving it too much until it's at least looked at first. Plan is to drop it off this weekend. I will keep everyone posted. Stay tuned.

I am in southern CT also....have used Dan since I bought my 2001 C2 in 2009...very confident in their knowledge and capabilities...

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Love to hear this. I'm glad there are options in our area, but picking someone to diagnosis something like this and then trusting them to fix it, is a big decision.

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Oh, damn. There's a guy ON FIRE right now outside my office window. I think I'll head out and recommend that he stop being on fire. Then I'll share a story about my amazing skin grafting race car driver buddy, but not actually bother to include any useful information.

Car is the hands of the doctor now... I should have a better idea what's going on tomorrow. They are starting with pulling plugs and scoping bores on 4,5,6 cylinders. He said you will usually see scoring from the top side of the cylinder, so hopefully he doesn't have to drain the oil and go from underneath if that is really the culprit. P.S. His new shop is great if you are ever in the area. Lot's of cool cars and things to see around there. Stay tuned.

good luck

sorry to hear about the oil consumption issue. as a porsche owner for many years i for one would never even consider buying a car that has been tracked. i have witnessed too many drivers over-revving, grinding, being hard on suspension, transmission/etc., and just overall hard on the car. i'm sure many would disagree with me but i would have to think there is some relationship between the tracking and the oil consumption issue. i do hope it's something simple - i love that atlas grey exterior color-rare to find it. all the best

Let us know how you feel about Dan's service, please. I'm in Northern CT. I've used Automobile Associates, in Canton (a great shop for restoration and repair), but had considered Dan at one point when I was looking at a car out Danbury way. Just keeping the options open. Good luck

#6 cylinder scored. Engine is shot. Dan has been excellent in talking through the options so far, but obviously there are no cheap and easy fixes here. He's a very approachable, down-to-earth guy which is nice when going through something like this. Options on the table that are being quoted up: 1) Used engine - personally don't like this option even if you can find one 2) Re-manufactured cylinder/block from Porsche - he said it's possible to find these but can be difficult. If found he thinks it's cost effective but I am skeptical re-using Porsche parts again 3) New engine from RND engines (~$20k option ) 4) Re-sleeve current motor with Nickies - longest lead time option but personally sounds like the best plan if the cost is right 5) Cut my losses and sell the car as-is... Not even sure what the car is worth as-is. Any ideas? Just terrible news all around. Didn't even have much time with the car before disaster struck.

What a kick in the nuts. Sorry, man.

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X2

4) Re-sleeve current motor with Nickies

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This is what I was leaning towards if the price is right. Would likely do IMS at the same time. Anything else absolutely worth fixing "while he's in there"? Also, anyone know if the cost for Nickies on LN Engineering website ($4,600) includes the labor of installing, or is that just for the parts?

Crazy sad that after 1300 miles of ownership a cylinder scores out! You mentioned the engine sounded fine to your untrained ear but what about the tech who did the PPI? Every scoring incident seems detectible by sound first? Can't we assume metal flakes were being shed before purchase and the PPI? What did the PO know? Why didn't the PPI at least drop the oil filter see the tail pipe soot and hear the ticking? Other than questions I can't offer advice but I can assure you you're in good hands in this forum for the next steps.

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PPI by Power Tech in NJ. I live in CT but bought car about 1.5 hour away in NJ so had to use someone local. They said the car was "healthy" overall.. I purchased car from a dealer in NJ. They sell all sorts of cars and have a pretty nice shop. They claim to be a "Porsche specialist shop" as well and set up cars for racing, restoring, etc. Judging from reviews and the customer cars there, I felt pretty good. BUT I will giving them a call soon to go over this as it seems like it could have been present at time of purchase and not disclosed. I have no idea if this failure occurs at a single start-up/drive, or if it develops over time. I actually contacted the real previous owner because I had his # from the service records. He traded the car into Porsche last summer and bought a Cayenne for his growing family - and then a Cayman for himself. He said that he had higher-than-expected oil consumption and had it checked out but local shops said it was "in spec". Without any other symptoms he had nothing to go on. But when I got the car things deteriorated pretty quickly from there. Doesn't sound to me like he dumped the car at fist sign of trouble, he's been inquisitive about his old beloved car. He lives in CT as well so maybe he'll get to see it again if all goes well.. I changed oil soon after purchase and cut open the existing oil filter and did not see any examples of metal particulate at that time.

That really sucks. Given you bought it for 24k, I would definitely go back to the dealer you purchased the car from. You had high oil consumption from the start so definitely not something you caused. Volkert

Out of all the options 2 & 4 are the only ones I'd look at. I am going to say that re-sleeving your current engine will be more money than gettign the RND engine though. I re sleeved me engine with LNE nickies and pistons, and replaced everything inside the engine with new parts. Last time I looked, I was at $18k CDN and that was with me & friends doing 100% of the labor.

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What did just the re-sleeve cost? If something else in the engine is badly worn/broken/damaged then I will have it fixed while I'm in there, but I'm hoping I don't need to replace "everything" in there. Maybe wishful thinking. Just curious why didn't you go with RND engine if it was more cost effective in your situation?

You checked the filter and didn't hear ticking so due diligence on your part. It sure seems a short period from purchase to score out. Good luck from here on.

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I did not have 20k to drop on an RND engine. It took me two years to buy all the parts. Every pay cheque I bought some parts. Plus I used this chance to up the displacement of my engine. I went from a 3.6L to a 4.0L. Unfortunately, you cannot re-use most parts. You must buy new carrier bolts, rod bolts, rod and crankshatft bearings, new timing chains, tensioners, paddles, etc, etc, etc. It all adds up quick. crankshaft bearings are $32 each, you need 14 of them. Head bolts are $11 each, you need 24 of those. Crankcase bolts are $6 each, you need 14 of them. rod bearings are $8 each, you need 12 of them. The nickies from LNE is half the cost. The LNE work is $4600 - that is if you do disassemble the engine yourself. If not, then add your garages labor to all of this... http://lnengineering.com/products/wa...ins-clips.html

Sorry to hear man. No offense, but I think $24 is steep for the mileage and options on your car. If the car was healthy I think you'd take a loss and then you'd probably take another cut for the condition of the engine. Get a quote on the repair and try to compare it to the hit you'd take selling as is. Here's some reference points. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ng-2017-a.html It sounds like you have another car, but if not, you need to think about the cost of a replacement ride. Good luck.

Prices are generally much higher here in the Northeast compared to Cali....least that was my experience when shopping.

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This is true - the area is not cheap for these cars unfortunately. I was pushing for about $1-2k lower, but it was from a dealer who has less flexibility to budge on price understandably. Hopefully they are able to work with me on some level to justify the higher costs. We shall see.

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That's kind of frustrating, PowerTech has a pretty good reputation around here, and they did some work on my 928 that I thought was competent. I'd call them too just to give them my piece of mind. Sorry for your troubles.

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Got it. She's a beautiful car, best of luck. If you decide to keep the existing engine, other things to address are generally RMS (if not done with the IMS prior), water pump, AOS, coolant expansion tank. I think those are all the usual suspects. If you don't DIY, you might want to proactively replace the engine mounts and gear box oil (if not done before).

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The PO must have known the list of the major items as well, he had just about everything above done (and then some) expect for the AOS which I would replace at this time.

That sucks big time. Sorry to hear that. Hope the dealer will offer some help (likely wishful thinking though). What you do next depends on if you love the car. If you love it and plan to keep it for a long time, expect to invest $20-$25k to get the engine rebuilt. If not, sell it "as is" for $7~8k I would think with that mileage. It just doesn't make much sense to fix it and then flip it financially. You will only be break even. For more info on rebuild, see this thread where I rebuilt a 3.6 to 3.8 using the LN nickies. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html RND only provides stock displacement I believe but you should check with them. If you need to rebuild it with LN nickies, you need a good m96/97 engine builder. You should also check with Jake Raby (Flat 6 innovations) for options. The LN $4,600 is only for parts (and machining obviously) but the good thing is you can increase the displacement to 3.8L or even 4.0L.

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Parts only. I've walked this mile. Very sorry to hear about what happened. The good news is that you can increase the displacement. The bad news is that, when you add in labor, the IMS Solution, some $ for other stuff inside, you are going to be at around $20K.

like I said - you (or your mechanic ) disassemble the engine and send the cases to LNE. They send the cases back with their cylinders and a new set of pistons. that's what you get for $4600. you have to then re assemble.

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if you do rebuild with LNE then this will be your chance to avoid some of the less durable porsche parts. it will add to your costs but go with: -APR bolts inside the engine -LNE billet IMS paddle -LNE oil Hex Drive -LNE rod and crankshaft bearings ANY hose that looks old, brittle, or not right- replace it!

Sorry to hear the bad news that sucks all of those choices will get your 996 back up ave running again and I'd definitely be having a conversation with that dealership.

Update #3 I've been doing as much research as possible and going over options with my Indy. This is what I have to work with so far. The cheapest option would be to go with an OEM Porsche short block + 100% rebuilt heads. Throw in the labor, some misc auxiliary items (e.g. AOS, pulleys, etc.), and a new clutch I'm at ~$14k out the door. Also gets me back on the road in a few weeks. My understanding is that this short block is pretty much new, manufactured within the past few years. It's a 996 motor, but built to the latest "spec" which all I can discern about that is the larger single row, non-serviceable IMS from the 997 motors. My obvious discomfort here is that the forums makes it sound like every M96/M97 motor will go bad with scoring at any time. I've also heard that the 997 motors tend to be even more susceptible to this problem. Not sure why. Maybe the additional power of those engines as I thought they were identical liners/clearances. My original hope would be to do this and change the oil often and never drive the damn thing in the cold and hope for the best. I bought this car on hearing many stories of high mileage ownership. Car would only be driven ~7k miles a year (no racing), so if it went at 75k again, I'd at least own it for a decade before cutting my losses at that point. The Nickies options when you go ahead and add up all of the bearings, bolts, additional labor, etc. to get it all back together is closer to $18-19k, which is quickly approaching FSI pricing, which in that case I'd likely just use Jake. These are obviously considered better options (because Nickies) but the price point is probably more than I love the car after so little time. 14k is pushing my sanity right now. The latest option I am discussing with my Indy is a motor from MB Motorsports. Hard to find a straight answer about MB here, but the engines sound good and are a good price. Probably would be about the same price as an OEM shortblock in the end, but should have "superior" cylinder liners and IMS bearing. Any thoughts or opinions on this option?

Why not go with an MB motorsports rebuild? If I were in the market he would get my money hands down. A few Canadian's chat about his work and his engines You will hear a bunch of BS on here about Martin and his company but at the end of the day they build a SOLID reliable engine for a hell of a lot less than some of the holier than thou builders that frequent here.

Based on how you plan to drive it, I'd recommend going with the OEM and $14k. Those high mileage ownership stories are still true...and those are OEM motors. Yours is one of the few that broke. Its always nice to own a Picasso...but not necessary to have a happy life. FSI falls into the same category. If you've got the money and want to spend it, why not? If the FSI cost makes you pucker a little, stay with OEM. There are days driving in LA traffic (and considering the cost of repairs) I wonder why I even bother to have a 911...I start looking at becoming a two GTI family. Or maybe find a really really nice Mk 1 or Mk 2 generation. But then I get in the Porsche and it just feels so good. And then I start fantasizing about an overpriced 993 or 964 and getting back to real basics. But the truth is that the 996 is the best "worst case Porsche" you can buy for the money. You've got a very nice car. It bit you. Keep it, give it a new motor, and enjoy it even more in five or six years as you watch the craziness of modern cars take all the pleasure out of driving.

Turbojamie - they are a leading contender at the moment. Trying to find out how many people have actually used him and their short/long term results is difficult on here, or otherwise. I'm also determining the logistics of this route, shipping car to FL from CT or shipping engine(s) back and forth and having local shop install motor. Might save a little money with the latter route. johnireland - with any option I won't be itching to track the car, I just want a running vehicle that's fun to drive. The OEM has a better warranty than anyone at 2 years unlimited miles. No great, but still gives me at least 2 years with the car without losing too much sleep. The OEM option is still vary high on my list and takes out some logistics variables with MB. Wondering if for future resale though that a motor with different sleeves and a better IMS will make it more valuable to certain people down the road. I'm not doing any of this for immediate resale, I'll own the car for a long time regardless. But there is usually a time when it makes sense to move on and it would be nice to get the most return if possible. Decisions, decisions...

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You can actually save money and just make a manometer out of piece of clear hose tapped into a spare oil cap. Make a U shape out of the hose, run the engine, and use a tape measure or ruler to measure the difference in height between the two sides of the U. The spec on vacuum is in inches of water, but use motor oil as the indicator fluid instead of water, so just in case there is really high vacuum and it sucks the indicator fluid into the crankcase, you're not mixing water and oil. You just have to scale the reading down since oil is less dense than water and will displace more than water. Oil density is around 0.85 g/cc, whereas water is 1 g/cc, so whatever number of inches you measure in oil, multiply by 0.85 to get inches of water.

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Hit up Zookie on here, he is from Ontario same as me. He has nothing but praise for the MB motor.

MB sold a flawed motor that quickly failed to one guy on here a little while back. Their reputation is certainly less than FSI's, and dealing with Martin after a purchase can go south with his pugilistic tendencies. Last week he tried to pan LNE with a facebook post about a failed m96. But if MB frequently sold dying m96s or ones with serious build quality issues, I think we'd see a lot more bad press. Whatever you decide, gl getting it back & running well. Tough luck