Is this cyl #6 wrist pin clip seated correctly?

Hey all. Today I attempted to mate the cylinder #6 Carillo rod and JE piston as part of my 3.4 to 3.8 rebuild. I used a boroscope to check the work, and I'm having doubts whether the wrist pin clip seated correctly. Doesn't that clip appear to be resting on the outer, not the inner groove? Here are several pics with various angles. Also pictured is piston #1 where the clips are installed on the bench. I really need some expert opinions. piston 6 angle a piston 6 angle b piston 6 angle c piston 1, assembly done on bench

It doesn’t look like it’s seated correctly to me.

Nope, not seated properly. You can still see the inner groove in all three photos.

Thanks for confirming, guys. This sucks.

Just split the case again. Here's a close-up shot that definitively confirms my botched job. The 4-6 half loosened easily. The 1209 Drei Bond shouldnt be too difficult to peel off. Bad piston 6 wrist pin clips install.

Maybe all that lube is holding the tool back from seating so the clip is deploying too far back also how come you split the case because of that??I would have just pulled it out with long nose external pliers , if it's not in the groove it's just sat inside the piston only held in by spring tension and can be pulled out! I'd wipe all the grease from the end of the wrist pin and clean the insert tool then get it right in and give the end a good firm push and it will go in!

1209 Drei bond?? Aren't you supposed to use loctite 5900 for the case halves , it's what I used , isn't the drei bond stuff more for cam covers and sump , the loctite is more heavy duty??

You do not need to split the case to get the clip out. When I rebuilt my M96 I missed on the clip for 6. Twice. Just turn the engine so the the opening for bank 2 is down (should be already) and pull the clip out with a pick. It should fall right out number five. Do not split the case unless the clip is lost inside. It's an incredible waste of time.

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Actually both the Porsche wsm and Jake recommend Drei bond 1209 for the crankcase.

That's ok then as long as it's up to the job! The loctite was good also I found it worked well

Today was a GOOD day. Resealed the case and successfully installed pistons 4-6. The original problem with #6 clip install was due to the tube not being fully flush with the wrist pin opening. It took a bit of finesse to get it aligned. I knew how far it needed to go by placing a piston upside down into the bore and then marking the tube. I'm ready for the next phase!

It may be just the angle but it looks like I could see a lot of the clip. Also there is not much gap between the ends of the clip? Looks different than your 4th photo done on the bench.

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Agreed.

Looks like it is in the correct location, but doesn’t look seated to me. I can see too much of the clip. Maybe it is just the angle. Looks like it might need to be pushed slightly farther in.

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Good catch! It appears the clip "missed" the groove, and is either too far (the only way that would be possible is if the back clip was forced out during install of this clip) or not quite far enough. Here's a photo of #4, which shows a consistent gap. Jake was right, this @#^@ engine is an enemy. I suppose the only option I have at this point is to pull the case off again... piston #4

Also if your having problems here are you sure that 1-3 are all seated properly? With 4-6 what I did was put the back clip in on the bench before installing the piston into the bore, then when you install the wrist pin it slides in and butts up to the rear clip leaving the correct gap at the front so when you insert the tool and whack it the clip goes right in , the recess for the clip is right after the front face of the wrist pin and you can seen its concave shape as it's rounded to accept the round surface of the clip , with a small mirror you need a side angle, the front view you are showing us is hard to see, the clip should look like it's touching the end of the wrist pin and you shouldn't see much of the side of the clip. Also as I mentioned before , these tolerances are tight , don't use as much lube, it just gets squeezed out when you insert the wrist pin and gunks everything up , this stops proper location and the ability to properly see that your in with the clip, I'm not saying don't use lube but what actually gets left on the wrist in when it's in the piston is probably a film of lube a couple of thou thick, you don't need half the tub in there ok

I've got a spare piston at home with a clip installed I'll take a side view shot when I get home ok

You may want to check the piston, pin and the insertion tool and make sure their dimensions are correct and you can install the clip on the bench. It's hard to imagine you can drive the clip so deep that it missed the inner groove. Almost sounds like the pin is too short or the clip on the other end is not locking the pin. The dimenions of the insertion tool (the tube and the drive rod) are critical. The tube rests squarely on the outter groove and its inner diameter has to be very close to the inner diameter of the inner groove. A photo of my cyl #6

Looking at your last photo again, it looks like the clip is not driven deep enough. If that is true, you could try pushing it in further using the insertion tool.

All I can add is … damn clean garage.

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Yes, I'm sure. All three assembled on the bench without issue. Same here. Confirmed. I use a Wi-Fi boroscope. I can see the 2nd groove. What's concerning, though, is the fact that the outer insertion rod doesn't line up perfectly without a little extra effort. What I suspect, is the soft aluminum has been marred, creating an impediment for the clip to insert cleanly. Yep, oil only, and not much of it. Probably seeing some residual from the 1st attempt of this installation a few days ago. I'm going to wipe everything clean again. The pin length is perfect. I checked #4 & #5 after removing them. The clips for #4 are perfectly seated on both ends, thus very difficult to pull out. Any tips? I've tried various picks. Without the little tail, there's not much surface to grab. (Update: clip removed with pick. Will need or order another package because it's now deformed.) The insertion tool appears to be perfectly manufactured. The clips for 1-3 seated perfectly (bench install), and the "left" side clips for 4-6 as well. You are correct. Phase 1 I talked my wife into letting me use the semi-finished basement. Much better climate and dust control. I need to get over this hurdle and off to the garage for the remaining re-assembly. Couldn't sleep last night after learning of this debacle, so went down around 4AM to remove the 4-6 case half and start cleaning off the DreiBond, and chase the 24 case half bolt threads to get the Loctite gunk off. This morning she let me know she was awakened by few dropped tools on the concrete floor, and was none too happy. 2nd time removing the top half this week... clip NOT seated (2nd attempt) case half bolts, threads chased... the only thing I can do correctly

It's at this point I would say just take some time, step back and have a few days away from it, it's the best advice from what I've learned myself, mistakes always happen when you put yourself under pressures and emotions get involved , take a bit of time out then come back with a fresh head, driving yourself too hard , thinking too much doesn't do any good, you'll make a mistake and regret it, trust me I've been there, things going round in your head and you can't leave it alone, 996 fever that !!

Noz pointed it out above. You should remove all the grease and just use engine oil. I think the grease is in the way. Get a few more clips and try install the clip on piston #6 on the bench to make sure there's no problem first.

This is what makes the M96 engine different from all other engines on the planet !! No other engine that I know of requires the piston pins and clips to be installed through a hole in the block/case !!! lol

Don't forget also the use of a sealed ball bearing in oil submerged application

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Subaru flat 4 does too.

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Oh ok, well that makes two lol, 40yrs as a dealer Tech for several different brands, I still haven't seen under the hood of a Subaru....

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If one could come up with a fancy way of compressing rings from the underside, could the top case be carefully lowered with the pistons already assembled? I'm thinking a very, very thin piece of non-abrasive but strong, one piece material that once the rings are in the bore, could be slid out from underneath before the whole case is seated. Yes, it's New Years Eve, and no, I haven't been drinking..... yet.

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That's kinda the way it's done on the Turbo/GT3 Metzger Water cooled engines, except the cases are bolted together, then the watercooled cylinders assembly is lowered on the pistons with the special ring squeezers in place, then the ring squeezers are removed from below before completely lowering the cylinder assembly. But with the huge crankshaft carrier on the M96 blocking access to the lower part of the cylinders it isn't possible to remove the ring squeezers.

That�s also similar to how aircooled engines are built. The jugs(cylinders) are installed over the top of the pistons and the ring compressors can be removed from below before the jugs are all the way on and bolted.

Check out this vid , shows the clips being installed https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=WXon_11StI0&feature=share

Good job helping the OP on this one! That first pic in the original post is a poster child for what is NOT correct! We spend a ton of time on this in the hands on M96 rebuild class- for good reason. Glad to see at least 3 of my �students� jumped in to assist on this one. I plan to do a Rennvision youtube channel video on this topic in the next few weeks. The key to this is to practice the clip insertion on an unassembled 4-6 block half on the bench before trying it on the engine. Once you master that, then move on. Not before. I did develop a way to install these pistons differently, but its no simpler for the first timer than doing it the conventional way. Another key is the Faultless wrist pin tool, as it omits 3 of the disciplines that causes people the biggest issues.

So glad I was able to learn from the "Master" in person and learn all those great tips/tricks in the engine rebuild class. You just can't get those from watching a video. When I rebuilt my engine a year after the rebuild class, I didn't even need to practice, got the 3 clips all in one-shot.

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Thats what makes the class priceless! You were the most attentive �student� that we�ve ever had! Your notes were impeccable!

Two HUGE assets to this community! Thank you both.

My buddy figured out a way and built the tools to install the pistons onto the con rods first and then slide the case half over the pistons (sort of like they do for regular engines). I think it's way "safer" to install the pins and the circlips first and then slide the case half over it than to do it the Porsche way and insert them though the block. The tools that he built are not much more than an off the shelf ring compressor, some metal shims made into cylinders and some big zip ties. Took a couple of tries to figure out the proper procedure and to tweak the shims but at the end it worked really well. This engine has been running since the assembly and has already has a couple thousand Kms on it so this procedure is a good one. I really feel that the Porsche procedure is a flawed one. Just by looking at how easy it is to make a huge mistake in the beginning of this post is a proof for that. I'll be using the same tools and process in the next few weeks when I finally restart the re-assembly of my engine. I'll post pics of the tools and how to make then and what it takes to do it "the other way" in my engine repair thread that has been dormant for a few years.

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I had some urethane tapered sleeves and trick clamps made for this, and the system probably works a lot like your friend had experienced. The only negative aspect of this is I don't like the feel of the assembly when the block half goes over the ring pack. It makes it very difficult to feel if a ring has become caught, or has broken due to that. Improvising "other ways" is the fun part...

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Hi Jake/Jud! I'm the OP and a former student (March 2018). I remember clearly the 3-4 hours our group spent on installing the wrist pin clips. I may be a little rusty, given that it's been a full 9 months since class, but the fundamentals are still very clear in my mind. I'm going to give it another go as soon as Charles sends me new clips (they're in the mail as of today). Thanks for coming into this thread and providing assistance.

For me I find that "free handing" the installation of the pin clips is the best way. Especially when using the factory clips with the "tang" on them. The various combinations of guide plates and clip tube stop sleeves for each bore size 85.5mm 93mm 96mm 99mm 101mm all take a different combination of guide plate and/or stop sleeves , orientation marks, and the wrong one will result in a failed attempt. I simply use the clip tube and ejector rod and a "light feel" to find the outer of the piston, then find the clip bore, then rotate the tube to feel the tang align with the piston notch (if using factory clips ), then press hard against the piston and eject the clip.Works flawlessly for me. I find that all the orientation marks, guide plates, and stop sleeves, just desensitize from actually feeling the tools in the proper place.

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Yes, we instruct this the same way. Never use the sleeves and etc in the kit. It just complicates everything. On the factory pistons with the indexing tang, we grind the tangs off.. The earliest of M96 engines never used them, and the pistons had no provision for them. They serve no purpose, except to complicate the procedure.