Follow on: Next day, still Completely Stumped

This is a follow on to 'completely stumped': I followed up this evening with the problem plug. Removed the plug tube: its in very good shape, no leaks, no cracks, very good condition. Re-lubed it and put it back in. Attempted to remove the plug with a 4 claw flex extractor: grabbed the terminal, the plug spins freely, wobbles in every direction, I can even see the threads. Something is caught, I can hear washers clinging when I spin the plug, and occasionally it 'squeaks' and catches, then spins free. The plug will wobble all over inside the chamber, but is caught on what looks like the last 2 or 3 threads, I can even see inside the head, there is a gap, that is how free it is. I've thought of the following: take a small tube (metal, probly copper, malleable), cut an 'x' longitudinally to create 'fingers', then slide the tube over the terminal Next, take a larger tube (conduit) and slide it over the small tube to form a seal Then, take a small ring and slide it down over as far as possible to or over the terminal, locking the tubes in place *attempt to pull and rotate the plug out....... OR Fill a spark plug socket with epoxy, let it sit over night - and, well, see if that works have a bad feeling this is an engine drop just to remove a plug on its last threads always wanted to try my hand at a complete rebuild, guess here is my chance.

So if I'm following your issue ( https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...y-stumped.html ), you think it's this little washer that is caught on the very last thread? Do you think something as easy as heat could expand the area around the washer and free up some space? Could you put something on the engine to warm it? My fear is that if something is caught, by forcing it you may damage the female threads on the expensive end.

Can you get a camera in there?

This evening I will warm, then heat the affected head bank, to create a uniform heat pattern across the whole head, vice heating one cylinder and having two cold, may cause other expansion/contraction problems, slowly w/a heat gun and attempt to back it out. I'll try to get my hands on a bore scope, then have a look. I did take some photos, but does not show much, just a plug lying in the tube/space. Thank you for the help, I will follow up with what I find, hopefully have some video or images from the bore scope. Do you think/or know of an optimal temp range for the surface? I'd like to keep it in a tolerance where the fine threads (in the head) are not overly heated.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried threading it back in since unthreading it?

Yes, but as in the extraction, where there is a 'squeak' and a 'stick', sometimes an audible 'click' - after 3 or 4 spins the plug becomes tight, or I feel resistance in threading it back in, so I stop. The weird part is this: everyone knows when a screw, of any type, if held in place during extraction, will 'hop' on the last thread, indicating that it has cleared the thread column - same here - There is a tactile 'hop' at the end of the thread cycle, but the plug remains in the chamber, something is snagged or, worst case, a center section of threads is stripped, then encounters a second set of in tact threads and is unable to over come them its just strange......

So, based on your description, the center electrode may have collapsed into the ground electrode, forcing it out far enough to catch into the threads slightly, or the sealing ring may have slipped down and gotten tangled in the ground electrode, or (worse case) some head material has come off & is caught into the last threads. Your idea of putting quick steel epoxy on the socket would probably work, but might be a one-shot deal and might worsen your dilemma. How about finding a short piece of rigid (copper?) tubing, put a piece of silicone tubing on each end of the size that would seal over the tip of the plug. On the other end pull a tight vacuum, which might give you enough grip to twist/pull it out. GLWS

I like the vacuum idea, I was going to go w/a friction based solution, same concept - sort of like a mechanical pencil, how it grasps lead I'll give it a shot, first up is the bore scope to see what is going on - then fabricate a solution Vielen Dank

Well, as you mention the mechanical options, something like this may even have some potential: https://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-VISE-...saArpaEALw_wcB

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Great idea! I have a pair of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/16-inc...set-38598.html They've gotten me out of (seemingly unreachable) jams before. Also the smallest diameter of this set might help: https://www.harborfreight.com/3-piec...ers-37909.html

I think TexS is on to something! Now, if there was someone who happened to have an engine sitting out for a test fit...

Can you get a small rubber hose over the ceramic part of the plug push it right on, then you can turn it to spin the plug out and pull back to get it out of there, worked for me before, something like a Bunsen burner rubber hose from back in the school days !!

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Buy them anyway. More tools in your arsenal, the better. The HF stuff is dirt cheap, and if you like them, upgrade to something USA made. You cant squeeze too hard with the Chineesium stuff, the handles will just delfect instead of putting more leverage on your work piece. Depending on which cylinder you�re working on, you may need to remove the muffler to fit the pliers in there. Alternatively, go on Amazon and look up a spark plug installation tool. It�s a red tube you slip over the sprk plugs to hand tighten before final torque - it may have enough grip to remove your plug

My other motor is buried behind a bunch of 800# cubes of aluminum cans right now... Just get a piece of fuel line from your local auto parts store.

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fuel line old hemi trick

I have a BMS BMW spark plug tool that uses a molydenium magnet to hold the spark plug. It’s the BEST spark plug tool that I own! i wonder it there is a similar tool for Porsches.

I love the idea of acquiring more tools. Off to the store, we have one place in town w/a bore scope - I live in what can be referred to as a rural environment - I do not have many choices when it comes to tools, parts or support (proper tools, proper parts, proper support). I do have the braided rubber hose, and will pick up a conduit sleeve for it (provide extra force) I'll let you know how it goes - thank you for all of the input and support (proper, thoughtful, solution based)

Do you have a Snap-on, MAC, Matco, Cornwell dealer in your area?

I see an engine drop in your future ….

Yeah, I pretty much have resigned myself to dropping the motor....... rubber hose failed, just slips off - think there is dielectric grease on it from the coil Snap-On guy is here 1 time per week visiting the dealer and body shop - I missed him - I have a video of the plug flopping around in the tunnel - let me know how to post it

So, here is a quick clip of the plug flopping around - had to cut it down to get it into the forum I've got about 20 seconds of this: see how the knuckle is out to the plastic tube end, and how far the threads are exposed it is just barely hanging in there, but its stubborn - I've warmed the tunnel, not high head, but got it warm

Bizarre

Yea, you have some damaged threads. Probably the aluminum threads were gaulded when removing. It has to come out. I would go buy a cheap spark plug socket that has the rubber insert in it to fit the ceramic insulator.Then epoxy the insert into the socket and also apply epoxy inside the rubber to bond with the "ribs" of the ceramic insulator so the socket can be pulled on. Use a 3/8 "locking" extension so it can also be pulled without dissconecting from the socket. Use a 3/8 impact and spin fast and pull. Once spark plug is removed, remove header and rotate engine untill exhaust valve opens, then using shop air blow into exhaust port so air in exiting spark plug hole. Use a thread chaser to straighten threads. Hopefully the threads are not too damaged, otherwise a thread repair insert will be required.

tomorrow's activity: Cut 2 slits near the open end of a plug socket; into the circumference, opposite one another Then, slide the plug socket over the plug, after the slits have passed the knuckle, roll a heavy gauge O-Ring into the slits Essentially locking the socket on to the back of the knuckle I'm looking to grab the back side of the knuckle at the threads Socket will provide spin, o-ring will provide stopping/pulling resistance attempt to spin and pull the plug out - will warm the cylinder again -

PorscheTech3 - thank you for the help- I was not sure about properly evacuating the plug fitting - this is of great help!! I did consider the epoxy route, but want to try an O-ring, or cir-clip solution before going to epoxy. All of you have provided me with very constructive paths forward - I'll keep you informed about the work. Thinking I may as well up grade my headers while I'm at it........ because of this stubborn plug, I'm now at a new muffler upgrade, or Gundo hack, and now new headers.

Will update tomorrow evening - swim meet all day tomorrow -

So what's the consensus about die electric grease on the plugs. I've read mixed.

New Beru's are pre-conditioned w/dielectric grease - that was in the sales info - that's about all I know

Realistically, what am I looking at for a new motor? I've gotten quotes from 12.5 K to 6 to 9 or a tear down, rebuild would like to retain matching numbers

A new motor or drop the motor because you can't get the loose spark plug out. Seriously? It looks to be too loose to be caught in the threads. Take a spark plug socket with the rubber inset, use some silicone sealant inside the rubber to hold the plug in, let it set for several hours, you may want to do the same for the extension. Then pull the thing out.

Do you think you could grab it with something like this:

Would you have room to use the long pliers with the engine in?

I do have the pliers and no they do not work. As for the motor ,it was due for a refresh anyway. I had planned on a top end build this spring, motor has 92k and an off and on tick (sticky lifter) on the 4,5,6 bank. I get really polar prices when it comes to rebuilds or refresh�s. 12.5 to 6 k is a pretty big spread for the same work.

Pliars miss and skip off, drops metallic residue in the tube. I am going with a non metallic solution to mitigate contamination. I have pulled the plug tube and cleaned it. Then re inserted it. When I get home I will most likely go with packing a plug socket with jb weld then letting it cure. I do like the silicone idea better though. I need to clean the plug body it has residue from the coil and is very slippery

That looks like too much wobble for just a crossed thread. I think you may have snapped a plug.

prepping a silicone filled 5/8th plug socket now - I'll let you know in the morning......

It's morning...

yes, it is ...... So, How does one remove a snapped plug????? The silicone did not bond enough to pull the plug.

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Is it snapped? If so it�s probably the ceramic part that�s snapped but it shouldn�t affect being able to get a socket properly seated on the metal and being able to unscrew it all the way out. Just make sure your plug socket it all the way seated.

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same thing except with JB Weld ???

I GOT IT!!!! Invented a new tool to boot (do believe I did, not sure if I'm the only creative one out there) Problem: electrode would not pass the last thread segment, it was bent Off to buy a bore scope, take a look inside the cylinder

successfully got on the back side of the knuckle; developed a fixing (not truly locking, but I'd imagine you could turn it into a fully fixed or locking device) solution with an o-ring........ An o-ring, couple of shims and a spare 5/8ths socket did the trick

Congrats

Nice! I want pictures of this contraption and inside the bore when you get the scope.

OK, inside of the cylinder: definitely cleaned carbon off the top of the piston. Having problems transmitting video from my new camera - I bought the WiFi one, communicates, but no video, the LED lamps are brilliant - charging my old Samsung, maybe it will have better results than my iPhone Anyway, I'm in the process of vacuuming out the junk left over from silicone and dirt in the tube, from what it 'looks' like (w/out benefit of up close bore video), I have a damaged piston (potentially), but definitely have a ton of carbon removed from the top of the piston - no metal came out....... I guess that's a positive. I'm trying to be positive: its a (nearly) 20 year old motor, she needs some work anyway.......

Not blowing my own horn, but the solution I came up w/is something I'd buy from the Snap-On guy, or NAPA, wherever - it really works when nothing else will.

So did the piston make contact with the plug electrode? You said it was bent and now there�s piston damage. How on earth would that happen?

Returning the WiFi bore scope tomorrow - right now it just makes a really nice bore lamp. That alludes to: I can see inside the cylinder firing chamber - Lots 'o carbon on the piston(s) - I had to remove cylinder 1 and 3's plug, that is where the codes were coming from. Tomorrow I'm going to pull all the plugs - now that I've got the bumper, heat shield, mufflers, muffler hangers off - all to change my spark plugs, talk about basic maintenance (sarcasm) Lots 'o carbon on the pistons - there are nice clean parts on the piston(s) now. Talked to a tech at NAPA, he said that due to very close tolerances, it may be that the carbon interfaced (struck) the electrodes and led to them warping / bending, he did say that it is not uncommon - however - I will verify w/a new bore scope tomorrow - I did get the threads traced - performed that procedure very slowly, almost turn by turn - one turn in / back it out and vacuum the chamber - repeat - Threads turned out really nice and accepted a new plug (just as place holder for the day not to let air in the combustion chamber, garage dust, etc.) must say, my new tool works amazingly well - I'll snap a photo of it and post it - its very handy for just this sort of job

Wow, I've never heard of that happening. I'm glad you got it resolved. Doing my coils and plugs over the weekend and thinking about this thread made me worry a bit but no troubles.

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Congrats! Now, post images of the bore scope. Interested to see what you find.

Next time you tap a spark plug hole, consider using a Back-Tap. If you use it and a shop vac you won't end up with debris dropping into the cylinder. It's the safest way to tap spark plug holes. Amazon Amazon

A little grease on the thread chaser always worked for me. Tex, do you use on that tool?

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Yes, I use a little bit of grease on it too. That catches most of the debris, but I follow up with a vacuum (Dyson Stick) that has a 3/8" hose connection. My son 3D printed the adapter that accepts 3/8" hose for me. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:562661

Sweet, I've got a Dyson cordless stick vac too - Look like I need to put my son to work building me accessories. I like the suggestion on pre-greasing the thread chaser. will be at it again tonight, first, will return the WiFi bore scope for a unit with a built in screen - not sure why it is not broadcasting a video feed. I'm up on its network, can interface w/the device, but no video. will solve that later. (iPhone and Android)

When my mother-in-law bought a new Dyson stick vac, she gave me her old one for the shop. It's great for vacuuming the inside of cars. My wife has talked about replacing hers, so I may have two of them before too long. Do a search on www.thingiverse.com for "Dyson". (Thanks to Bill for catching the wrong URL) Oh, and while you're at it, do a search for "Porsche" and "996" and "Boxster" and...

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Typo there, I fixed it in this quote. It's thingiverse (with an "I" in between THING and VERSE). Someone is squatting on the other URL

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Thanks! I guess I need to stop posting from my iPad mini. My old eyes can�t see what I�m typin�.

OK, all the work is done. No pictures yet of the cylinder / piston head. (new bore scope was not hooked up to my laptop) I will have an independent, certified, mechanic look at it w/a professional grade bore scope before going forward. May have to end this thread for a bit; this event may become a legal settlement. Long and short, the wrong plugs were sold to me and damage (threads at a minimum) has occurred. I am now in the process of establishing a chain of events.

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I was going to ask about the plugs. Good luck! Pics won't hurt your case...

I will say this: good thing for this forum. It identifies the time of failure and a description of events in a coherent timeline I do have my purchase history I went with a different brand of plug: never ever do that, lesson learned Where I live, I do have much choice in my shopping options - if I want the parts same day This is suppose to be general, very typical, maintenance - I understand that shops have liability insurance for just this sort of thing, or - get a lawyer -

*Correction: That is, I do not have much in the way of choice when it comes to purchasing automotive parts locally.

I'm just wondering...how long were the plugs in use?

cylinder 3 - 10 cylinder 3 - 9 cylinder 3 - 8 cylinder 3 - 7 cylinder 3 - 6 cylinder 1 - 1 cylinder 1 - 2 cylinder 1 - 3 cylinder 1 - 4 cylinder 1 - 5 cylinder 1 - 6 cylinder 1 - 7 cylinder 3 - 5 cylinder 3 - 4 cylinder 1 - 8 cylinder 1 - 9 cylinder 1 - 10 cylinder 3 - 3 cylinder 3 - 2 cylinder 3 - 1

So, there they are: 10 pictures of cylinder 1 - 10 pictures of cylinder 3

I've now removed the header and am preparing to move the exhaust valves to 'open' so that I am able to blow out the cylinder. Any suggestions on a carbon cleaner while I'm in there? the ports are absolutely filthy - I'd like to get up there with a brush and some cleaning fluid, or just hose it out with SeaFoam or something. I am not, in any way, ready to turn over the motor (fire it) until I hear back with some constructive views. I will also be contacting a lawyer tomorrow: back up if things go south with the parts supplier.

Full Plug Pic w/squashed ends Cylinder 3 on L, Cylinder 1 on R

Plug ends: 1 on L - 3 on R (cylinders)

Ouch! Looks like the threaded part is at least 1/2" longer than the stock plugs.

Who installed these plugs originally? Seems like it should have been obvious they were visually longer than the ones removed. Good luck with your discussions with the parts supplier, hopefully it can be resolved to your satisfaction without getting lawyers involved.

From a common sense standpoint it seems to me the responsibility should be on the person who installed the part. After all, they put in a part that isn�t the same dimensions as the plugs that were removed. A quick internet search will tell you what plugs cross reference to the original equipment. I don�t see how a parts supplier could be held accountable. I�ve purchased lots of parts that weren�t right over the years, but I didn�t install them if they weren�t the right part. To me that would be a lot like getting some advice from some random person on a forum, doing a job wrong myself, then suing the poster and forum owner. It just doesn�t make sense to me. Common sense needs to come into it.

Did they send you the wrong plug? Or is the E3.64 plug itself at fault? I agree that whoever installed them should have checked them. But realizing there was a potential problem depends upon whether it was a professional, experienced DIYer, or a first time DIYer. I always check to make sure it's the proper plug (double check the number on the plug matches the application guide) and gap, even on pre-gapped plugs. I've been sent the wrong plugs before. I've even had just 1 plug be the wrong plug. Of course that was the 5th plug in a 6 cylinder BMW engine so I didn't notice until I was almost done. The supplier (ECS Tuning) did us right and sent 1 plug overnight and said, keep the extra in case you need it for another BMW engine. I eventually used it. BTW, I ONLY use Bosch and NGK plugs. (or factory plugs)

I've often wondered if the E3 claims where true, guess we'll never know in this case. Good luck and post a pic of your tool when you can.

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This one looks quite different than the OP's.

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Yeah, it does, but I didn't know if that was a stock photo, or the actual one for the car. The plugs the OP has look too long. I would hope that all E3 plugs for a Porsche are not that long. I've never used or installed E3 plugs. Bosch or NGK or direct from a dealer...that's all.

I think you are very lucky the damage wasn't more severe, just light taps on the piston crown. This should not effect the performance of the piston and will cover with carbon soon enough. I would properly and cleanly straighten all threads, install new plugs, breath a sigh of relief, and move forward with life. And I agree the installer is at fault here (who ever that was), not the supplier.