IMS Solution question

Hi Guys, I am in northern California and looking for a certified IMS Solution but i could not find any one near by, the closest one to me is Callas which is around 400 miles away. My question is that, what kind of warranty that the certified installers could give to the owner vs the Indy mechanics? After checked the car and it is qualified for a IMS Solution, but if for some reason it failed later and cause damage to the engine. Who will be liable for the engine damage that caused by the installation and how will the warranty be covered? Please correct me if i am wrong, as i understood that LN will give you a warranty of replacement of the bearing but your engine is damage. The engine would cost 20 times of the bearing. So who cares for the bearing warranty if the engine is gone. Thanks,

The engine also costs about 20x the inconvenience of driving 400mi to get it done with a certified installer. I drove about 350mi to get mine done & made a long weekend road trip out of it.

Have you already asked Callas directly about your warranty question?

FSI offers great deal but it would cost me extra $2K to ship my car back and forth. But i am concern about the warranty. I am a long time BMW fan, if my car is service at the dealer, i will get two years of warranty for parts and labor if it happens again on the same spot.

this is a question that should be directed at the shop doing the work.

Quotes source post: 14021300

Yes, i would like to get an opinion from the owners who had IMS Solution done and what warranty from the others shops that they have. Thanks,

Quotes source post: 14021300

Yup!!

Call the certified installers listed on the FSI website and ask them. You would have all your questions answered by now. Did you say your car has already been qualified?

Quotes source post: 14021325

Do your homework - read this: http://theimssolution.com/12799-2/

Quotes source post: 14021325

opinions don't matter here. you want facts. from the horses mouth.

Thank you very much for your inputs.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Quotes source post: 14021560

Some guys on the forum have done the Solution without a cert. installer, search for those guys & ask them for details. If you're not up to the task of making sure it's done right outside the LN network, just bite the bullet & get it done down south.

Quotes source post: 14021231

I doubt you will get any type of engine damage warranty from getting the IMS solution installed. There's just waaaaay too many variables, and we're talking about 15+ year old cars.

Callas is great, but he is not cheap. Show the prequal steps to your local indy and ask him how much to do the prequal + solution. Compare it to Tony's prices. The difference in labor costs may be as much as the cost of the part you'd get back under warranty. That being said, I absolutely trust Tony to stop work immediately if the engine does not qualify. You should make sure your local indy is as trustworthy. Tony is going to have a decent wait time, I think he's averaging about 2 - 3 weeks these days. Finally, you have to take into account the while you're in theres...RMS, clutch, flywheel, AOS, etc...if you get all that done by Callas, it's going to cost a good bit more than your typical indy.

I have my car with an Indy, he will follow all of the steps from the IMS Solution manual and I believe that things will be good. Once my car is done I will update with pictures and suggest the Indy to become IMS certified installer to serve folks like me in northern California. Thanks,

Quotes source post: 14026066

I thought you had to be a certified installer before you can even buy the "Solution"

i believe you can buy the Solutions but won't have any warranty with it. I am ok with that.

There are a few sites you can order it from. I bought one and put it in - as did the Rennlist member I sold the toolkits too.

Am I reading this right? You are going to have him install it from the manual? You realize the highest probability of him making a mistake are on the first couple he does, right? Why pay the extra for the solution and then go cheap on the install? You would be better off going with a retrofit and somebody that's done it 50x than a solution and a first time installer. But hey, I guess it's only money. Just be sure to disclose you had the solution installed by a non-certified first time installer when you sell it. Otherwise you are absolutely SCREWING the next guy.

Actually, would you mind posting your VIN? It would be nice to have as a reference if you put your car up for sale and somebody happened to ask the group about it. Thx!

subscribing to this one for the lols.

Quotes source post: 14026066

OP, I am curious if you know who JAKE RABY is?

My understanding is that installing the solution is pretty much the same as any other dual or single row replacement bearing. If you're able to install one, you can do the other. Becoming certified isn't an easy process and there are plenty of qualified people who aren't (I'm pretty sure it's an invite only program) I'm not advocating using uncertified installers, but simply saying just because someone isn't certified doesn't mean they aren't perfectly capable. (I'm beginning to make some assumptions here) I believe the biggest reason for the certification is to try to get some guarantee that the preinstallation qualification is done, and done exactly right. If the existing bearing is failing, simply putting in a solution or any other replacement won't prevent problems and failure down the road. Then, it's a mess of finger pointing. The certified installers have that pounded into their heads and are willing to walk away from an install if the preinstall qualification doesn't pass. So, going to someone certified is best. But I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it if your Indy is reputable and has experience with IMS retrofits/replacements. It's probably worth insisting on that prequalification check just to drive the point home though. Once it's in there and your engine is running I honestly don't ever, ever seeing that part failing for any reason. The only real problem is if metal debris is already in the system from the previous bearing (hence the point of the pre qualify). So down the road when you want to sell it, I can't imagine you having any problems. Heck, I put mine in myself - I'll disclose it to a buyer and tell them very truthfully that the bearing will outlast the car without breaking a sweat. Another great point about the solution - there's no "the seller says it has a new IMS bearing" - you or any prospective buyer can clearly and quickly see that the solution is installed just by looking under the car.

Quotes source post: 14027241

Over reacting a little bit aren't we?

Quotes source post: 14027638

I did the same thing (self-install). Let's be honest, if we screwed the install up, we would have seen it immediately. And most certainly after a couple hundred miles. I totally understand Flat 6 Innovations' stance on certified installers, and I think charlieaf92 nailed the reasoning - it's not because the install is hard, it's because pre-qualification is key. If pre-qualification is not done, and the engine fails, the user is GOING to blame the IMS Solution, even if that's not the reason it failed. That means that the currently failure-free record of the IMS Solution would be tarnished, and for no good reason. So, if you had a bunch of random shops that were willing to throw in the IMS Solution and there was no quality control on who was certified to do it, you WOULD have a failed engine (due to some other reason than the IMS) with an IMS Solution in it. For me, I had the engine apart anyways, read through the pre-qualification procedure, and I DID do everything the pre-qualification requires - including replacing some parts inside (timing chain tensioners). The main reason I did the IMS Solution install was that I spent so much money on maintenance and preventative items on my engine, I wanted to have my own guarantee on my own work. In other words, I wanted to ensure to MYSELF that all the other work I did to the heads, etc. wasn't in vain. I had already purchased a Single Row Pro and Faultless tool, but sold them and decided to get the Solution because ultimately, it wasn't really THAT much more money.

Copilot, Charlie and Imo, you gus have got it right,

An unknown Indy doing a first time install of a Solution? Unless they are better than 80% of the indies out there and are an M96 engine specialists then NO. I would have no issues buying Charlie's car. His attention to detail, using the proper tools, and desire to do things the right way are well documented. But his motivation is completely different than a repair shop that is trying to maximize their revenue/hour average. And usually you are paying $120+/hr to have a moderately knowledgeable guy pass the job off to his $15/hr mechanic. How many Indy horror stories, especially in California, do we have to read about before we figure out that they don't care near as much about our cars as we do. So once again, why even have the Solution installed if you are just going to take it to the cheapest, most convenient place you can find to do it that has zero experience. Alright. Stepping down now.

Quotes source post: 14027158

I bought the kit through Vivid racing. Then i contacted Callas they denied customer's ordered part. Return will cost 25% restocking so i decided to go to an Indy.

That sucks.

Quotes source post: 14028021

Oh Boy, this could get interesting now...I sincerely hope this goes well for you, keep us posted.

Quotes source post: 14027973

Any shop that works on M96's - and I agree that's not all of them by any stretch - should be familiar with the retrofit process. Black Forest did mine 3-4 years ago, which was a little before things rose to a fever pitch, and they were very knowledgeable and had both single- and dual-row kits on-hand. If the install was so complex that it could never be done for a first time by anyone, there wouldn't be a manual. If the manual ISN'T complete enough that a competent Porsche mechanic can do the install, the problem isn't with the installer. Now, if you have to give your mechanic a deposit so he can afford to purchase the part prior to installing it...well...maybe he's not the ideal installer. (this is a hypothetical musing - not suggesting that this was/is the case)

My Indy is just 45 years experience on Porsche cars, it had done rebuilt many of 993, 996 and Boxster engines. The pre-qualification was great, checked the timing, oil and oil filter before removing the tranny and IMS. This is single ball bearing but it had no play at all. it was like new bearing. The clutch and flywheel need to be replaced along with RMS and tranny's seal. The car will be done either today or tomorrow. I am not a mechanic but other than the pre-qualification process. The IMS Solution alone is simple and easier than a clutch job. I believe that many people like me wanted to see that the IMS Solution is affordable and can be done from their local Porsche repair shops instead of shipping their cars to few thousand miles way to get the service done. If the qualification process is needed for the IMS Solution, then it will be a must done on the IMSB replacement as well because the debris could enter to the IMSB easier than the plain bearing. Thank you!

I won't take the time to pull up the crap Indy threads, including the one where the shop botched the IMSB and reported it as an engine failure, but sounds like you have a good one.

Quotes source post: 14028080

Which part? It is quite common for shops to not accept customer supplied parts, especially if they have no history with said customer. Furthermore Callas is essentially the west coast version of F6I who understands the reputation of the Solution. Given that a certified installation is all about removing/minimizing the risks associated with engine failure, why would you trust an unknown bearing (not saying it's a fake or anything is wrong with it, just that I can get not trusting something you don't know the full providence of)? Now if you are talking about the 25% restocking fee, all I can say is that it's Vivid. There is lots of Google history out there about issues with them, their stuff, and their policies/support...

Quotes source post: 14028217

Ditto. My indy didn't even use unopened coolant I brought in for coolant line fitting & a refill. They do not use parts where they can't take ownership of the sourcing. Partly a profit thing, partly a liability policy.

Quotes source post: 14028217

The IMS Solution Kit. Each of the shop has it own policy i understood that. I choose to go with the IMS Solution that mean i am looking for cheap job but the same work done could cost me 2k-3k extra from the certified installer.

Quotes source post: 14028255

I meant which part of your statement did Slakker thinks sucks (that Callas wouldn't use the part or that Vivid wanted 25% to restock it).

Here are some pictures.

Quotes source post: 14028217

This is true. When I showed up to my valve replacement surgery with my own new valve in a Ziploc baggie, Kaiser came completely unhinged and started asking questions. Where I got it is MY business...just install the damn thing!

That isn't the stock DM flywheel is it? I feel like mine looked different.

Quotes source post: 14028359

It is a new DM flywheel. The car will be ready today. I will take it out tonight for a long drive.

gl going forward, should work out ok++

Quotes source post: 14027241

I specifically remember Jake Raby saying the majority of mistakes that he's seen are made by "highly experienced" mechanics who become complacent after doing the same procedure over and over again - i.e., they lose focus. He says the number of times you've done the job is meaningless to him... I think if you can follow instructions and pay close attention to the details, anyone with a decent tool kit and some mechanical ability can pull the job off. The big question is whether you've got the time, space and inclination to follow through with the entire job.

Both. I would not do business with either company unless there were no other alternatives. But lucky for them there are plenty of people that don't feel the same way as I do.

Quotes source post: 14028611

What do you think Jake would say if you sent him a Solution and asked him to use it for the build you have on his books? I'd bet he'd give you some creative other places to install said bearing I see no problem with shops having such a policy. Their markup on parts is part of how they stay in business. So the real question is what they are charging for parts. If it's a reasonable markup I'm OK with it and if not, like you said, there are other shops. Most shops (at least any one I've ever dealt with long enough to build a relationship) will also generally allow you to supply some parts if you have a good relationship with them.

The local shop here in SLC (the only one in the state that's certified for the Solution installs) doesn't allow customers to bring parts. They'd go out of business if they lost their parts markup. They also charge $100/hr for labor, so I'm hoping to eventually reach an agreement with them where I can do stuff with no parts markup and just higher labor costs. I'm more than happy to give a decent $ figure to them to make it worth their while, but given the myriad of available parts on the market it can be a big PITA having to decide between different upgrade strategies when you can't get a quote. For example, right now I want to upgrade my suspension but have no clue what they want for it. I've asked twice and they won't give a quote - despite me telling them in very clear terms they're the only shop I'll work with b/c of the LN certification. I can see being defensive about the busines, but fknA, I want to be a long term customer and know what I'm getting into cost-wise before I pull the trigger. Playing games with quotes and charging a superficially low labor rate seems like an odd way to run a shop. But, it's not my shop so I respect the process & don't hassle them.

All these discussions, to me, revolve around the same premise of "value" vs "expense". We face this every day in just about everything we do, from fast food vs gourmet food, designer jeans vs Levis or Costco jeans, makeup, for the ladies, Hyundai vs Bentley, etc etc etc and including IMS bearings! So make your choice and be happy with it. I am 100% certain that "The Solution" performed by Jake Raby's shop or a certified shop is the best insurance you can buy but many can't justify that expense and go a different route. Both good choices. Some prefer to gamble that the original bearing will last and are rewarded with a long lasting vehicle. Bad choice? Not for them. Some aren't so lucky. Here's my take, do what's good for you and enjoy the heck out of your car. These cars are simply a joy to drive. It's killing me that it's going to snow tomorrow meaning I may not be able to drive her for a week or 2 but I will survive!!

Quotes source post: 14028692

When I was doing my research, the local (75 miles away) certified shop was really great. They sent a detailed quote and I felt no pressure to accept or decline. I went another route but if someone wanted to do "The Solution" I would not hesitate to recommend them. I'm in northern NJ and they are located in eastern PA.

If it's new in box and they won't install it then they are just being asses. They can easily add the extra they would make by supplying the part to the quote for installation and make the exact same amount of profit. As for Jake, he has been extremely accommodating in working with people that supplied some of the bolt on parts. And as for the Solution itself, if you are a Rennlister and he's rebuilding your engine, you won't find it anyplace cheaper than from him. There's good, there's fast, and there's cheap. I expect two out of the three when I deal with a shop. I've only found two that have lived up to this expectation and Flat6 is one of them. The rest I've been lucky to get one of the three out of.

Quotes source post: 14029327

^^Kind of agree, but I understand how it's different on the other end of the deal. You dealing with FSI is two parties that have rapport & know the other side isn't a complete schnoz. Any given mechanic, especially a shop owner, needs to be pretty careful to protect the business from unethical or simply incompetent SOBs. Ex. part doesn't fit, no refund & customer blows up social media while refusing to pay labor for failed install due to customer's idiocy.

I took a car home today and did 100 miles drive. This is the first time that I felt confident to drive a 996 without worry much about breaking my bank. I hope that it will be a good car to own for awhile, I will drive it more and more to enjoy it. For those lucky ones who live close to the certified installers so you could see that it is much easier for you but when it comes to me, it was a very tough decision to make. I wanted to share some number so you will see what I mean. -IMS Solution from the certified installer. $4k-5k -Clutch kit and fly wheel from $1.5-2.3k -RMS and Tranny seals (Should not charge on labor) but an estimate was $800 -Ship the car back and forth from $1.5k-2k. -Water Pump and Thermostat from $1,800 $2300 (parts cost around $500). I could handle this job for 3 hours of free time. Here is a reason that I choose a local Indy: If I shipped my car out for the IMS solution, I need to spend $1.5-$2k for shipping if the car is not certified then the money that I spent for shipping would be gone. Thank you all for your support!

Thanks for sharing and keep on driving!

What ^^^^^^ He said!! Drive her like you stole her!!

Awesome! Glad to hear you're up and running. $800 for RMS seems insane if the transmission and flywheel are already removed. Maybe they were quoting the job on its own? If that's the case, that isn't a terrible price. Or, maybe they've had a history of replacing seals and having to redo it because they keep leaking, so they figure there is a high probability they'll need to get back in there and this is their form of insurance?

Quotes source post: 14031154

I was talking about the add-on stuffs after the tranny was out. the clutch and flywheel kit will cost around $1.5 in part but the mark up could go up to $2,300.

Quotes source post: 14029771

Which shop did you take it too, and what was the OTD cost if you don't mind me asking?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/547x403/img_20150719_wa0000_c04eb2286ce64fb9f621366ca34ba98a6001e527.jpg

Quotes source post: 14032609

LOL! "There's always someone out there willing to do it cheaper. Always keep in mind that good handwork costs good money."

An expensive work does not mean that it will always be better. I also agree that the cheap job is not recommended for the important works. I have my cars service at the dealer, it is expensive but the jobs were OK.

Quotes source post: 14036539

This is unfortunately true. There were a few years I decided to pay a dealer to free up my weekends and avoid getting my hands dirty. The result: Jeep Dealer: 3-4 hours wait for a pre-scheduled oil change. They brought out the cabin air filter to sell me a new one, after declining they FORGOT to re-install it. BMW Dealer: Managed to scratch the car during an oil change - did a mediocre job of repairing it. Popped out one of the clips on the rocker panel trim from leaning on it while running a diagnostic on the passenger side airbag control module and didn't notice/fix. It was simple to pop back in, but it shows a lack of attention to detail. Sooooo... back to doing it myself.

Yes sooooo many lousy dealers out there. The good ones are few and priceless. And they can be any brand, either way.

Quotes source post: 14027439

Internet High Five

Quick update on my IMS Solution with none certified installer. Since the IMS solution was done over 6 weeks. I have drive more than 2k miles on it. The same car but different feeling. My feeling is safer and don't worry much about spare 20k in the pocket for the doom day of the engine failure. It is a great car and affordable but it needs a "Solution" to save the a big ticket in the later.

Quotes source post: 14136491

How'd you buy the "Solution" without a certified installer?

you purchase it and install it yourself (or get someone to install it)

Quotes source post: 14136623

But no warranty, correct?

Quotes source post: 14136623

I was under the impression that they (The Solution) could not be purchased or sold without a certified installer involved.

[QUOTE Bill;14137180]I was under the impression that they (The Solution) could not be purchased or sold without a certified installer involved.[/QUOTE] http://store.rndeuroparts.com/explore/IMSRetrofit&IMSSolution/IMS-IMS.Kits

Any shop or individual can buy the IMS Solution. A Certified Installer is required to take advantage of the full procedure, as I developed, and implemented it. If I had my way, only Certified Installers would be able to source the parts, but by the time that decision came around I had already checked out, cashed my check, and went on to the next project.

Got it, I learn something new here everyday!

Quotes source post: 14138056

^sometimes you just gotta let go^...

Its easy for me to let go when I realize that I have to deal with people!!! Dropped it like a hot potato!

Quotes source post: 14139360

I don't blame you one bit. I also have a feeling your sales/licensing fees (being the patent holder) will be much greater selling to the general public... Win. Win !!!

Quotes source post: 14139513

Nope.. When I let go, I let go... When you get off the bus, let go of it, else it'll turn around and run over your ***. I have absolutely ZERO to do with the products once it was handed over. Nothing residual, nothing... Thats the only way I'd have it, when I am done, I am done. The only thing I do now is select Certified Installers, and evaluate them. I don't even get paid for that, as I want to remain completely out of the loop. I hate sales, and hate everything associated with them. Everything.

Well then, I hope you got a nice chunk of $ when you sold it! Judging by the retail price, I'd think you did...Besides that, I know your development time/costs were probably mind blowing - I hope you covered them many times over

The product is good, i did not see any of these gone bad yet. I don't really need the warranty if my engine blows up. But i trust the product, trust my Indy and thank you the forum.

Its not about money with me.. I was going to keep the Solution for my own engines. I only sold the technology so it could be used to spank the asses off the copy cats. Those guys loved it when they came along with their "products" (That I already developed 5 years before!) and I was refusing to install Solutions outside of my own engines. The retail price of the Solution has very little margin in it. The units have may expensive processes carried out, and the DLC coating is carried out in France, requiring every unit to be shipped to, and from. Only one company could develop a DLC process that was optimized for the application. That alone is expensive as hell, and adds months to the production time of a batch of units. The bushing material is also very expensive, and sold by the inch. It also leads to a lot of scrap, due to the design of the bushing, and the fact that the stock is only available in 3" diameter bars, roughly twice the diameter of the IMS Solution bushing. I sold it for the simple purpose of reducing their success. Thats all I cared about, and all I still care about! Its worth way more than money to me, I can make more of that! No, there's been ZERO failures of the IMS Solution to date. With nothing to fail, thats to be expected.

Quotes source post: 14026066

Hey njim3 - any chance you can share your indyshop that installed your IMS Solution? I'm in the bay area and would prefer not to ship my car down to LA (I've had two cars incur damage being shipped! 2 for 2!). It wasn't by chance RMG was it? Jake - I also sent you an email asking the same thing. Surely there is a shop in the Bay Area that has passed your sniff test?

[QUOTE=Wangta;14787175 Jake - I also sent you an email asking the same thing. Surely there is a shop in the Bay Area that has passed your sniff test?[/QUOTE] Unfortunately no. Every shop that Mr. Raby invites from the Bay Area either supports copycat IMS products, or they cannot pass the Certified Installer evaluation.

Quotes source post: 14787208

My mind = BLOWN

�RMS and Tranny seals (Should not charge on labor) but an estimate was $800�. No labor cost, really? Okay let me see what�s included� The labor price includes (for a Callas Rennsport �RMS Kit�): - The RMS (Rear Main Seal) removed and replaced with proper factory tools and information. - The GMS (Gearbox Main-shaft Seal) removed and replaced with proper factory tools and information. - The Gearbox release bearing guide tube inspected and replaced if necessary. - The complete gearbox bell housing and rear of engine cleaned and inspected. - The 4 engine case bolts, as mentioned in the TSB, replaced and other accessible ones tightened. - All components including the clutch operating fork, ball-pin bushing, slave cylinder, etc all inspected and replaced as necessary. Here�s what it takes: 1) We had to purchase almost $1,500.00 in tools to replace the Rear main seal, Gearbox main-shaft seal and check the crankshaft-crankcase alignment with a Go-No Go gauge (RMS install tool, GMS removal tool, GMS install tool and crankshaft alignment tool). That�s all once we have the shop, the car in the shop and the car disassembled. 2) I have all USA legal, fully insured, trained, all benefits included, well compensated Porsche technicians. 3) We have all the factory manuals, information, TI�s (Technical Service Bulletins) and even dealer only ATI�s (Advanced Technical Information) Bulletins (this is invaluable and costs I don't know how many tens of thousands of dollars). 4) We offer a 3 year � 36,000 miles warranty on almost all repairs, who else offers this? 5) With Callas Rennsport you have very experienced, knowledgeable and technically trained Porsche technicians servicing and working on your car, this is what everybody prefers, right? Try taking your store bought steak into a high quality restaurant, ask them to cook it for you and then expect the highest quality at a fair price. Then complain to them stating that you�re not satisfied, then complain online that you weren�t happy with that restaurant, it happens every day in the automotive field� Thank you, Tony

Quotes source post: 14789287

As someone that understands how hard it is to get a $1 to carry from the top line all the way down to the bottom line, especially when you are trying to do things the right way and not cut costs at every corner, I have no issues with your labor charges. You�ve built a national reputation and that should bring a premium. There are a whole lot of people getting compensated more that don�t have a fraction of the talent. But I think there is a difference between steak and name brand, new in box auto parts. For one, using parts that someone else brought in doesn�t violate any health codes. My company is in a highly technical field and are often asked to do design and installation work of customer supplied eqiupment. We have a nice set of terms that basically says any time spent troubleshooting, RMA�ing, and reinstalling customer provided equipment will be charged at an hourly rate. If they buy it from us, that�s all covered. Like anything else, as long as expectations are set properly up front, most customers are fine with it. And the ones that aren�t were going to be pissed off no matter what we did. Now as to the tone of my original post, for that I will apologize. It was unnecessarily caustic.