Different Approach to DIY IMSB Retro / Parts and Pics

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The plan sounds good to me.

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You have found almost exactly what I found in my 2003 54k mi engine. No grease IMS appears fine. I had "clean" oil, at least not black and burned smelling, in the tube. I don't see how these seals mounted on the end of an empty tube, especially when immersed in hot oil, could withstand the pressure, heat of a warmed up engine, and vacuum, tube cooling when engine off, without letting oil through. I think both seals removed should allow free flow of lubricating oil. As long as there is no FOD they should outlast the originals by a significant margin. Would you consider posting a parts#, supplier list?

KK- When you remove the seals will you also clean the grease out of the bearing? I wonder if the grease (and seals to keep it in place) is important for lubricating the bearing during break-in, i.e. fine polishing of *****, races, and cage? How high above the IMSB was the oil level? I imagine that the the oil level in the engine will be lower when it is running with all oil passages full and surfaces of the crank and other internal components are coated... I think it's cool that you are doing this and I don't agree with those who say you are nuts for not paying a bunch of money for what is an off-the-shelf bearing. GL & keep the photos coming!

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Nice way to spend the weekend in Houston! I did mine last fall and enjoyed every minute of it! Great cars to wrench on!

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KrazyK??? REALLY? By finding the bearing supplier, listing the part numbers and being "first" adopters IMo00 and you have done a "Good Thing" as Martha would say. Why tarnish it with those three throwaway sentences?

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I think you deserve to be called some names if you are dropping the engine to clean it. That's really the main reason why you'll be dropping it, you can't fool me. Btw, just so we're clear, you bought the Pelican kit but later decided to use the CH bearing that Imre is using? Are you using the stock OEM shaft with that?

Well in KK's defense he took a lot of $hit on his other thread when he started talking about doing this job. Many said he shouldn't cheap out on a critical part like this, but he has proven just like Imre that the parts in the LN kit are pretty standard (except their custom flange/shaft). Many believe (including Casper Labs) that the stock shaft/flange is adequate for the job and adding these custom bits just adds cost to the repair. KK's car is another example that the stock IMS was nowhere near failure when it was taken apart. How many cars have had these parts swapped out because of this stigma and nothing was wrong? I bet it is in the high 90 percent range. Sorry for the rant, but it pisses me off that there is marketing and hype about this "problem" that really isn't as bad as it is made out to be. LN's own website depicts the M96 a time bomb ready blow at any moment. This is kicking the $hit out of the value of our cars.

Well done KK. Very well thought out and executed. There is more than one way to skin a cat (not my words but my wife loves this sick phrase). Professional kits are a great piece of mind for a lot of people. Its ready off the shelf and only work it requires is reaching for your wallet. I respect the research and courage. Please provide the full parts list when you can.

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yawn. The bearing is never a problem until it is, and then its a very big problem. If you happen to be in the .5%, 1%, 5%, 10% whatever that has an IMS failure, then it probably doesn't matter much to you if the remaining 90%, 95%, 99%, 99.5% whatever percent are perfectly fine, does it? If you are concerned about the value of your car, sell it and buy an air cooled one. they seem to hold value.

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KK, Where did you find just the "guibo" flex disk? Porsche will not sell the disk by itself! They want to sell you the entire driveshaft! Awesome Job by the way. Great to see some folks who are not scared of the beast. Other than the tight cramped space this car is no different than anything else I have ever worked on. Cheers, Tom

Awesome job!!! I plan to do mine when it needs a clutch (or leaks oil which ever comes first)...

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FIFY OK maybe the value thing was a bit of a rant. 997's are depreciating like crazy too. The IMSB sigma doesn't help though. Absolutely agree that it is a big problem if it goes and sucks when it happens to you. Its the mentality of chopping 3K off the price of a used 996 because it doesn't have an LN retrofit. Seeing these bearings pulled out time and time again with no issues is what I have a hard time getting my head around. Imre's had 200,000 miles on it and not close to failure! I came from the 928 world with the 7 foot long timing belt and thrust bearing failures, both having catastrophic consequences. Lots of DIY maintenance info/parts out there on how to keep it from happening to you. I hope the 996 will be end up like that as well with more and more people working on them at home and developing alternatives.

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KK, much appeciated

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I think that might be stretching it. CH bearings are vastly more tolerant of under/spotty lubircation than standard bearings. I would not risk that. An approach I really like is user Feelyx's pressure-fed roller bearing (a poor-man's "Solution"). He had a great thread on it over on Pelican: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxst...sign-idea.html I think your choice of bearing should work out well KK. How did you extract the original? This is sometimes where trouble can happen, so detials of success stories are always good!

Bravo KK. I applaud your decision to take this approach. I had planned to do something similar with my car, but when my clutch suddenly crapped on me last October I needed to get the car back on the road so I had to just go for the LNE kit instead.

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This will be a neat experiment. KK has a seal-less single row and mine is a sealed double row hybrid.

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A very neat experiment indeed. KK, you do realize that we will need you to actually drive your car to make sure that this works. For you to change out the bearing and drive 75 miles a year would be a shame. The 996 community is counting on you!

Just a thought comes to mind when removing the seals. Is there any way for spent material from the chain tensioner shoes to find their way into the bearing? Could it be a possibility the seals were there to protect the ingress of foreign matter into the bearing, not just hold in the grease? I have never been inside a 996 motor, but have worked on many DOHCs and others.

500 - thanks for the link http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxst...sign-idea.html This was an interesting read, I had not seen that thread before. I definitely enjoyed the video of a valvetrain at 14,000 rpm. There is a lot of speculation in that thread, I believe a lot of it would be addressed in the discovery documents for the lawsuit detailed in this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...r-12-a-18.html Has anyone asked for these yet? It needs to be someone with a 2003 or 2004 and less than 130,000 miles. KK - I agree with you that it is possible to find a quality bearing for less than $600. A fix like yours is something I have contemplated before. With respect to using a seal or not, did you consider using a shielded bearing?

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I also wonder the same but kudos to KK! Thanks for sharing and trying a diff path.

This thread is useless for any real long term reliability tests as long as KK is driving it(or not driving it a lot in this case). Thanks to KK, there is one more useless point that can be debated now, sealed vs open bearing. K I guess now I can expect JG dt40 to be used in threads with open bearing endorsements as well. As someone said, what about any concerns from foreign debris contamination in the open design? It won't take too much to mess up a bearing. Lower mileage cars might fare better than high mileage cars as parts of the timing guides and other wear items within the engine could break off in higher mileage examples.

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On the surface, your reasoning is sound but gotta wonder why Porsche engineers didn't have the open design, even in their later models as it really wouldn't have added any additional cost to their bottom line? But then again, you have the mindset that Porsche has used the wrong oil as well so maybe seeking an answer would be futile at best. I'm not saying the open bearing is either better or worse but just trying to figure out why Porsche didn't do it with their vast knowledge and engineering resources.

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Well done for taking this on, I�m still on the std bearing and after reading your removal and the Casper data, I am more comfortable to leave the std bearing in, change the oil regular and keep it topped up to the max, so the bearing is constantly sitting if fresh engine oil. When the clutch finally dies I might change it out for a CH bearing, but not as a panic move before.

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Are you eligible to ask for the lawsuit discovery documents? There is probably a lot of interesting info in there. I'm sure your miles are low enough, is your car new enough?

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Anxiously awaiting your parts inventory postings you mentioned above... I have extended warranty thro Sep this year, after which I want to dive into this project over the winter break... so want to see what you show as LNE alternatives...

The standard/OEM bearing is sealed on both sides so the engine oil is not a viable lubricant for it. This is one of the design flaws. The only way for the engine oil to act as a lubricant for this bearing is to remove a seal. I did this on my OEM bearing (dual row) back in 2009 before the tools and technique for removing a dual row bearing were perfected.

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Just wondering, was having the flywheel Blanchard ground (resurfaced) an option? Years ago this was 15%-20% the cost of new and worked perfect.

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Dam right

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This is no longer an option with Dual Mass Flywheels. The rubber member inside the flywheel cannot hold up to resurfacing. Honestly, it is likely worn out by the time your clutch disk is. Skoot

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I normally avoid the IMSB threads for all the usual reasons, but I want to point out that I read years ago, just can't recall exactly where, that in the original design, the bearing was NOT in an oil bathed location, but was above the oil level and only subject to only vapor and splash, so a sealed bearing made sense, IF you were going to use a ball bearing type. When the oil starvation at pickup apparantly reared its ugly head during testing the sump was redesigned and the level was raised to increase the capacity to the now ridiculous 9+ qts it is, and IIRC, the bearing is still not totally submerged, and very dependent on oil level. At that point I think Porsche listened to the bean counters over the engineers and that is how it ended up as it is. Risk vs cost of redesign. And of course, it's your car, do what you want, etc, etc, but I have to agree with Casper and JR about oil side open and the other tube/shaft side closed, IF you are going with an open design. Having the tube side open will not increase any flow or circulation, unless you spend all of your driving going up and down short steep hills. Otherwise it is a rotating dead zone tube, with unpredictable consequences of possibly filling with oil on a long uphill, robbing that capacity from the system, or if the fill is corrected for that tube capacity, then over filled on a down hill, as the tube empties. The effect of the mass of the oil in the tube as it is rotating at high rpms while cornering and causing possible deformation is another unknown. I'm not sure what my replacement will be when the time comes (clutch replacement, or indication), but for a lower cost Solution, a bearing with far better seals, as Pelican seems to have embraced, (I mean, seriously, in 2013 no one makes a truly sealed bearing that can work in partial submerged 250F oil?) makes as much sense to me as a splash lubricated CH bearing does.

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There is a fairly lengthy thread on Pelican mainly driven by a certain Feelix, who did a tremendous amount of work trying to find out if grease could still be found in the bearing once removed and if oil could be found in the shaft. After looking at many bearings sent to him by willing participants to his tests (I believe most were Boxster owners), I recall reading that: 1. He could not find any grease in any bearings he took apart; and 2. In all shafts he got and against his own initial theory, he found very little oil, as in drops amount, in them. So, I believe Perry has a point here, but I'll leave it at that, as I don't know enough to take side one way or another.

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My point was that the shaft was clearly not designed to house oil. I agree that the videos I've seen some had oil in it some significant, and usually nasty. Normally those were failed bearings or clearly worn, the few threads about preventative replacement had none or insignificant, but of course there is no hard or controlled data. So I would suggest that the amount of oil is directly proportional to the health of the seals in the bearing. Like I said, i think an open on oil side CH bearing makes the most sense, & I like the idea of a sealed cap over the shaft end. I'm not raining on your parade. Fully open might make the most sense, the lessor of the low cost evils if you will, but as a mechanical engineer, I can just say it reeks of potential problems. Your fear that the cap may cause problems seems far less likely than the issues I brought up, and both JR & Casper who have many more engines undee their belt than all of us agree with that. If you think they know their stuff regarding other points of the M96, why on earth would you think that you are right about this one point and they missed it? Sorry, but it makes little sense is all I'm saying.

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Mine had a good amount of oil in the shaft and the bearing looked normal. I've installed the CH bearing with the seals on and put 400ml of engine oil in the tube. The way I figured that if/when the seals start leaking, there will be oil to keep the bearing lubricated for a while. It's an experiment, just like Krazy's project. The more people try different things the better it is.

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Good that your trying something different, but don't big up yourselves that the Porsche engineers are stressed about any garage experts out there. Their interest in 996 IMS bearing fixes evaporated around 2006, by then they are onto the next gen engine without it. I like this forum, but this IMS fixation is beginning to wear thin

I enjoy reading this IMS stuff.

Hey guys, (hopefully) *future* 996 owner here, I'm curious of this: anyone hear of IMS failures that happen after taking preemptive action on the IMSB? Seems like something I haven't ever heard about since most IMSB threads seem go: "Got it done, and I'm good to go, now" Is the IMSB a wear item similar to the clutch, suspension components or anything else that wears out with use? Or is it like engine (main) bearings that *hopefully* last as long as possible By the way I like the idea of the open bearing. The only way I see it not working would be if anything unwanted gets in it

I was serious too, not baiting or provoking a reaction. I'm sorry that people are sick of IMSB discussions. I belong to the camp of "If you don't like them, then don't read them." I can easily say I'm sick of the "Look at my car with 19" wheels" threads too..I just don't read them. Constructive discussion is what is required, not insults and degrading name calling. For one, I agree that the seal removed and bearing open on both sides would promote more flow through of oil through the bearing. How much and whether this has any value is debateable. Again, I'm not making waves or preaching. I only want to explain that only in theory, is theory proof of what occurs in reality. In reality, we know that the greased sealed steel bearing has lasted in (pick a number) close to 95% of the M96 engines, and 5% resulted in failure. If grease wash out was such a sure thing, then the failure would be much higher. In theory many are assuming that it is the grease wash out that has caused the failure. In reality, no one knows for sure. It is not worth anyones time to analyze the bearings (except maybe to JR) as it is moot to most whether it was the seals that failed, which then caused the wash out, or a slow wash out of the grease that caused the seals to fail, then the bearing. However, if the seals are the problem, and a better longer lasting seal, in a better smoother bearing could be used, then the issue is closer to being solved, inexpensively. The amount of grease in a sealed bearing is actually pretty small, typically less than 30% of the free space. Most, if not all, (I know of none that aren't, but that is not anything remotely definitive) ball bearing and race bearings are designed to be used with grease, not oil, as even in an oil bath, the ***** and races wear at an accelerated rate. So all those IMSBs that have lasted 75k miles, must still have grease of some kind in them. Ergo, better grease retention, means longer life. You can never assume that an oiled ball bearing will have no wear, or last as long as a greased bearing. They don't. But for sure, an oiled bearing will outlast an unoiled one. That is what I meant by the lessor of evils. Without looking at the detailed assembley of the IMS, bearing, flange, etc design, dynamically, I, as an engineer, know not to assume that oil in the tube is definitively caused by travel through the bearing seals. Could be around the bearing seals, or some other path. Again, we have people assuming that in theory more oil flow is all that is required. Where is the reality check, or proof of the pudding? If you and Imo000 are willing to use your engines to provide such data, that is great. Most of us clearly don't say things like "Im looking forward to the next tear-down to check my new CH bearing." !! I applaud the labor and time you are putting in to all this. It will not be wasted, I am sure. My first choice, as I stated, would be to use a far better sealed, greased, CH bearing, if a ball bearing design was to be used, and like you, treat it as a wear item. The added life from the increased durability of the CH bearing would greatly stack the odds in my favor of no failure that way. Since the seals in a true sealed bearing hold grease in, and oil out, since they are not under pressure, I would expect a long useful life. IF I didn't want to pony up the cash for The Solution, which is a far better, well, solution. The question of debris in an open bearing has been mentioned. Any debris is catastrophic for any ball bearing design. Less so, for a full ceramic bearing because the races and bearings are harder, smoother and truer, so debris can not get to where it can do as much damage, compared to the softer, wider tolerance steel bearings and races. The CH naturally does fall in between the two. Again, a sealed bearing would have far less chance of any debris entry, and one side open CH, less chance than a both sides open bearing. So there are your hazards. If you are just aware of these items, then you can be prepared for their possible outcomes.

Well said! One of the reasons I left the seals on is that if the original non HC double row lasted 200Kmiles then a hybrid should last as long but probably longer and the seals will protect it from any metal contamination too. Mine is a double row so it is much stronger to start with so my extra protection was to replace it with a hybrid. I'm not the type that looks forward to the next teardown as I've done enough of those (non 996 related) that I cherish when things work well and last a long time. My first option was to leave the old bearing in. Second to replace it with a standard double row. Third a double row hybrid and the last option was to develop a bearing just like the solution. I don't have the money to risk and develop the Solution type of simple bearing (had the whole thing drawn out by a fellow RL-er) so settled with a double row hybrid. Rod and I (mainly Rod) came up with the idea of a simple oil fed bearing before JR released any details. This shows you that different people can come up with the same thing at the same time.

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First -my compliments to krazyk for a well thought out diy .Second on the discussion of bearings and oiling .Most if not all two stroke outboard motors use a ball bearing for the crankshaft main bearings .Lubrication is either direct oil feed or oil mixed with gas . Since a boat motor is always under load you could infer it's a tough environment .If the ball bearings work there and they do I fail to see why an open bearing won't work on an IMS .

Good job KK.

Honestly, more superb photography. REALLY nice job. Please don't compare a bearing used in a 2 stroke outboard motor to one used in Porsche engine. We have enough threads where members think we are insane already, and the joke possiblities are endless. KK, please, I never said your decision was a huge mistake. And like so many have posted all over the forum, there are what, a hundred thousand M96 and variants that have never had an IMSB issue with the original bearing, so perhaps the "improved" one from Pelican may be so much better, or jsut a , that it is all that is needed and the whole IMSB debacle would never have happened, or to so many fewer as to be considered a margin of error. And I thought I quite plainly spelled it out, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS! We DO know that if the bearing fails it is a trashed engine and a huge bill, and that is what this is all about. DOing what you can to try to avoid it, completely. I applaud that. For sure the flow of oil in to and out of the tube would increase the oil flow through the bearing, which you, personally are trying to do. With that increased flow is the increased chance of debris, vs one sided or no sided access. Is not that clear? Is debris a potential issue. Sure it is. Is it one you should worry about. I doubt it. No more than JR points out anyone should worry about debris causing a clogging in an oil channel and a hot spot or worn bearing journal being the result. ANYTHING can happen. All you can do is try to minimize any negative potentials. You absolutely MAY have the best solution. I dunno. Worth a shot. All I did was throw in my observations and express a point of view, based on my mechanical engineering experience with bearing and lubrication, and infrmation gleaned off of the manufacturers and professional sites. It's your car, take it or leave it. Food for thought. Whatever.

Good job KK and thanks for the update and photos. Are you also converting to or already using Flat6 spin-on full filtration filter?Just thought that would further reduce the debri concern, if any.

The big v6 2 stroke outboards are some examples of excellent engineering and manufacturing .The point was that ball bearings will survive in a similar(not exact) environment without grease .That's it and I will drop it .

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Well I actually have to give you credit for doing it the way you did....but not why. I'm gonna say it.......good job

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I just ran out of steam with all this IMS overload lately. Don't worry I'll stick a JG DT40 jab from time to time. Just gotta get my car back on the road with the other "what were they thinking" decision to stick the alarm brain under the seat instead of in a higher place, oh say like next to the ecu or something.

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Unfortunately the floor got wet and ruined the alarm brain box and apparently everything is tied into that.

A little info about the amount of time it took, any special tricks or problems encountered, how long to get the trans out, etc. would be appreciated. Good thread.

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I'm willing to bet it took him way more time to clean and detail his transmission than to actually take it out. Seriously man, with all that cleaning you're doing underneath, you need to enter it in a car show or something.

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Of course we want it! Full parts lists, prices, vendors... Good job with the write-up. Much more enjoyable and informative than past '996's are worth nothing and cost gazillions to repair' posts!

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+1 !!!

+996, all that, vendors & tools especially!!! I really think my clutch at 48k is close to needing replacement, and what you said about a clean install returning the car to new (or better) has been echoed many times by others doing the same thing, and it is one of my last bigger complaints about the car.

Thanks for the writeup KK, it is extremely helpful and what this forum is intended for.

KK, Time to update your IMSB thread! How about those parts and vendors, as well as a report on how everything went back together? Also, biggest challenge for me dropping the transmission myself is no lift, would have to do it on jack-stands. Apart from the hassle of doing everything flat on my back, what do you think the minimum height the car needs to be to get the transmission out?

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+1

Well I've just read the whole thread! I'm no engineer but this has been both interesting and very informative Any update?

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I'm starting to wonder if this thread was a scam, or the iSB blew up the day after he installed it. So many here have asked for the info, and its not been supplied.

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I'm guessing KK has not yet driven the car! He's still busy wiping down the tools with a fresh diaper. :-)

BOH

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Sorry for the snarky message...just anxious to see the list, and get weary checking back every day...heh heh

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Don't mean to hurry you up, but I'm keen to see the list too.

Tic tic tic

Will you get a kickback from Pelican if they sell "your" kit?

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Shielded or unsealed in this environment makes no difference, so unsealed is the best bet. The shaft was designed and built by an outside vendor. They gave the parameters and the vendor did the design. This is VERY common in ALL auto manufacturers. They would not deviate as that would mean they have no recourse in the event of a failure. Also you can be sure that Porsche tested these engines to destruction and found no appreciable failures (to the point of warranty expiration). This is how it is done. What they may not have done is tested in engines where oil was never changed, wrong oil used, and a million other variables that no one can possibly think of. They then use statistics to determine exposure to risk and move forward with that. The 12$ bearing is probably fine for the application from a strict speed/load perspective. There is just another element that is causing this failure. Also the failures appear to be at around 5% which, while high in the auto industry, are not that bad compared to some of the ones out there. (think recalls) How do you think the factory finished the flywheel? Magic pixi dust spread on to a thickness not to exceed 23 microns? </sarcasm> seriously, the only way a dual mass flywheel cannot be resurfaced is if the rubber element has failed. If there is no shuddering when you took apart the clutch (IE replace at the correct time) then there is no reason to replace the flywheel. Or even resurface it for that matter. Well some of this is correct and some is not. The bearing from the factory is not 'filled' with grease, it is about 30% as you stated. This is because grease actually causes friction in the bearing and as the speed approaches maximum the heat can be terminal. Having said that oil IS used on bearings, but only in a mist configuration and not flooded. These engines (and more importantly the IMS) are nowhere near that speed. So flood or grease will not be a factor in the life of the bearing. NO lubrication or very old oil might, though. Tolerance and clearance in a bearing has nothing to do with materials they are manufactured from. The tolerance group is a size definition, not a material definition. The only thing about the CF bearing is the ***** are tougher and last longer. (they are the significant wear item in the assembly) so any contamination would have less of an effect. No need to break in the bearing. You are not stressing the bearing from a speed perspective (IMS runs at half engine speed). so drive it like you stole it. It has been a while since I have been in a 2 stroke engine, but as long as they don't have a crankcase full of oil the difference is HUGE! The bearings are oil mist fed and this is the way a non greased bearing must be in order to survive high revs. So you cannot compare the two. I certainly hope so. His work should be compensated. How much that compensation is, is a whole 'nuther story.

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You capitalistic scum.

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Don't really know what "work" he did besides researching info that was already out there and performing your avg imsb update. Nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned. However if he does come out with a plug and play kit, I wouldn't be surprised if its successful, as he's already done a great job of bad mouthing and spreading the fear. I wonder if PCA has blacklisted KK from joining yet...

How many great products do we use that are modifications of what's already been in existence that just took the right person to bring them to fruition. Nothing wrong with criticism and skeptical discussion. Let each person judge and make their own decision. KK has got some of us thinking. That's worthy of applause IMO.

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His next DIY is to fill his tires with cement. Since he doesn't drive it, they will never get out of round + no loss of pressure. That's important when your car is a piece of furniture. Paranoia is an awful thing...isn't it?

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+1000 It has nothing to do with being a capitalist scum. It does, however, have everything to do with being a lying and deceiving scum. A few posts ago KK insinuated that the parts list was being delayed because it "got absurdly long". Then a few posts later he posts the truth, which is that he is waiting to hear back from Pelican before he divulges his "secrets". KK not only learned a good bit of his IM** technical knowledge from JR, he also learned about IM** marketing from him as well. Either that or they both have read "IM** Guerrilla Internet Marketing for Dummies". It all comes down to integrity, of which KK has none(and JR has little) IMHO. KK has been on this forum slamming the 996 in almost every single one of his posts, AND NOW WE KNOW WHY. Like Raby, Krazy, has littered this forum with fear mongering for years. However, unlike Raby, KK was deceitful in his agenda(at least it only took half a brain to discern JR's agenda). All of this has served no purpose, IMHO, but to degrade this forum and sully the 996 ownership experience for many of us here. I'd personally push around a broken 996 than give either of these two one red cent.

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No paranoia, just BS marketing. Everything that he types is just BS marketing in disguise.

Regarding the whole IMS issue...this one little part has gotten us all more befuddled than a clitoris.

The key is understanding the testing of the IMSB product so the potential purchaser has some degree of confidence that the product they are buying works better than the originals and doesn't cause other problems. (Some are known to.) What quantity have been installed and how many miles in what conditions have they been customer used? What feedback mechanism reporting back their experiences is available and how much is it used? (even forum postings help you get a feel for what people's experiences have been) Additionally, ask questions about the quality of instructions for installation, what other parts are included, what tools are needed, what warranty is provided, etc. There are IMSBs that have been installed in quantities of dozens, hundreds and thousands. Some customer installs have been in only months, some a year or so, some 4 years. Which would you have confidence in? Beware of ideas where there has been a quantity one for a few weeks of experience. Not that that can't be a better ultimate solution (every product had to start somewhere), just do some research to see if there is any statistical or logical reason why you should trust your precious car's engine to a particular product. There is risk to every product/part. How much are you willing to invest in research and cash to quantify and mitigate the risk?

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Historical data, or the lack of, is the hurdle I see with any new alternative IMS kits that come out on the market. I'm not sure how many are willing to be test mules, especially because our engines are close to 20k.

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Research is work. How much it is worth is a completely different story. Not sure what fear he has spread, specially in context of others on here . Integrity is hard to find anywhere these days, anywhere (including Porsche). Everything in this world is being rounded to the biggest dollar. And that is all that matters. It depends on how you define deceit. Refusing to dispel untruth, when you know it is, and can do so, is deceit. Also, Imre's comment was sarcasm even though it didn't come across as such.

^^^I would agree, it's deceipt on Raby's part(referring to another thread). Also, well aware of the sarcasm on imre's part...

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That is correct and many of us on here that aren't looking to be spoon fed do it all the time. We just don't necessarily try to profit from it and instead use the forum to learn, share knowledge, save others some grief, and try to make owning a 996 as easy as possible both emotionally and financially. Although KK does contribute to the diy's, I'm not sure some would agree with other aspects about him.

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Is it time for boobies?

I should have known...why there was a delay in providing the promised parts list, it came down to a decision to follow through here, or work out a deal with some company selling said parts. I just hope whoever picks up, IF, they pick up, the parts list, advertise it as KrazyK's...so those of us that don't trust him anymore can avoid it. Sorry buddy, you blew it.

Go to Boca Bearings and look up the hybrid bearing. That's where I got mine from and the same place I sent KK. I only have the dimensions to the double row unit but there is enough info out there to find the dimensions to the single row bearing too.

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IIRC, there are some single bearing part #s floating around one of the other forums(pelican, planet9,etc). I forgot which one though.

BOT

KK...from what you're saying, the part list for your "kit" is only 9 items and 2 of those are loctite products. It appears as though you have changed your mind with respect to providing this forum with your parts list. That's your decision of course, but it makes a lot of us wonder why you posted this thread in the first place

Maybe KrazyK is not on the Forum everyday But after reading all this , I can't wait for the list ( I love a mistery )

This is very simple people. Buy the Pelican kit and then by a hybrid ceramic bearing from another source, like for example BOCA Bearings. The End!

BOT

KK, I really don’t understand your reluctance to detail the procedure you undertook, parts and tools as you outlined at the beginning? Why make an offer to the forum that you will do this, then you seem to be avoiding it despite many requests. This promised to be one of those threads that should be read by every 996 owner, and now it is getting to the stage where is looks like another IMS scam, scarmonger, your IMS will blow-crap post. Prove your integrity and finish this thread by posting you parts, tools, procedure, findings and comments.

Just get the pelican kit and different bearing if desired. Seems really simple. LN tool set works great, nothing new.

BOT

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Why are you hiding the list from all readers...we have to ask you pretty please or what? You made a statement and you are not following through...are you a congressman? You said you would POST the parts list, now do it to regain your credibility. (I love a challenge)

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Funny, but likely true...

I guarantee you don't want to see the tool list I used for mine. You can find at the tail end of my engine repair write up the bearing parts list with pictures. https://rennlist.com/rennforums/show...t=dragged+home

Yeah, I've sure been pondering that same question. You know what my answer is whenever I see poor engineering?: "This is what happens when C-average students manage to get hired." [Edit: Oh, nice job, KK. In spite of the crap some give you here, and the sometimes rather "out there" comments you post, I'm impressed with the tasks you take upon yourself]

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WOW! How did I miss this thread??? Excellent, I'm a couple pages in and had to post here to let you know this was an excellent write up. What a great way to refurb an engine - using all the technical know how from this forum! Well done!

I have read this thread a couple times. Good read. Great ideas. More options. But can someone explain all the hostility I keep sensing?

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If it's hostility towards a certain member, do a search on their posts and you will either get it or become a sheep.

dgjks6, you obviously didn't read post #18 of this thread: "After Im done I will include the full parts list / items needed for a top notch, replace all fasteners, kit and a short list for a super low buck fix for the OEM bearing." by the OP.

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I've done two IMS bearing swaps and meant that the LN tool set works well. I think your idea of using a different bearing is interesting. I doubt either of us will know who is "more right" since bearing failure appears to be related to car care practices. (oil change interval, oil quality and duration of trips/warming up car etc)

This just in... that Boca bearing is made in China! Some may not care, but... FYI

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Do we know the LN bearing is not?

Got almost 10K kms on it it so far.

BOT

The rep at Boca asked what my application was for and I told him... here is what he had to say: Hello John, Thank you for your reply. Sorry, the bearing you mentioned would not be suitable for your application. The load and vibrations would make the bearing fail quickly cold cause other damage. I would recommend using the stock bearing. Feel free to contact me with any other questions. No idea if this is engineer or simply a sales rep and this application does not come up on their cross ref chart... regardless, not exactly a confidence booster... ha! FYI.

Well that's interesting. The stock bearing is less robust so other than "if the factory used it, it should be ok" what would be their explanation to use it?

So do we get confirmation that the Boca bearing is made in China and the LN bearing may also be? I'm confused.

Why does it matter? If the bearing is made to spec, the country of manufacturer is irrelevent. For all I know, BOCA could be assembling each of these custom bearing in house from parts that are made all over the World. If you really want to know and be 100% sure, call them.

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It matters to me at least because when I trust the capability of chinese manufactureres, I don't trust their quality control. You can argue though the bearing manufacturer do the QC themselves which will mitigate my concerns. Same reason I won't use a made in china jackstand. Since we're talking about a critical component here, I would rather choose some other place of origin (e.g,. USA or Japan or Europe) if I had a choice.

Thenproblem is not the CQ bit what the vendor specs. If they accept a certain level of quailty the manufacturer in China will build to that. So what you see as crappy quality is what the vendor accepts from the Chineese manufacturer. Then the consumer blames the country when in reality, it is the vendor that is to blame. BUT the ultimate drive of low quality is the price. The vendor wants to keep the price low because, us as consumers, expect to pay as little as possible. There are tens of thousand of engines made for GM that are from China and I never heard any real issues with them. The capability for high quality in China is there if the vendor requires it.

BOT

Country origin and specs aside, if rigorous QC just isn't there, it will be like playing Russian roulette. I think is why we're at where we are now.

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Perhaps I shouldn't post and bring this thread up again, but.... Both SKF and Timken are now advertising to beware of counterfeit cheap bearings made to look just like theirs. The counterfeit bearings even bear the same markings as the SKF or Timken parts, and are delivered in cardboard boxes that are color printed to look just like the real thing. The counterfeit bearings actually function correctly - for awhile. Bad tolerances lead them to fail after a short life. I wonder if the whole IMSB problem stems from Porsche getting a random supply that includes some counterfeit bearings. IIUC they use NSK as the OEM. Here's a press release from NSK about this very thing. http://www.stopfakebearings.com/#/ne...tors-in-japan/

In fact here's an even more interesting news release about NSK: Article dated 2008. http://www.nskeurope.com/cps/rde/xch...unterfeit.html

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I've heard of this counterfeit part problem in the auto industry in general and even military industry where older electronics are marked as new and got installed on jet fighters....scary.

Many of the Porsche sealed bearings are made in the German Region of "Munich-Brazil" At least the transmission bearings in one we took apart were all marked "Brazil" ... assuming it is in Germany??

SKF is an acronym for "Swedish Ballbearing Factory" - I guess the Swedish word for ballbearing starts with a K. The last SKF bearing I bought was in a box labeled "Made in France".

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Ball bearing is "kul-lager" in swedish (means something like "layer of *****").

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://fitnessbedford.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/women-s-standardweight-dun-dun-duuuun_design.png

I suppose I could embellish the quoted NSK press release:

This thread clears it all up then, great... what were we discussing again?

Sounds like this approach of taking both seals out on a single bearing is not a good idea. Just read that the engine of this c4s car went kaboom and the diagnostic was caused by the IMS. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ong-story.html

Remember not to do this: 1. Take the easy/inexpensive way out and replace your IMS with sub-par thrown together parts. 2. Sell your car to unsuspecting buyer avoiding disclosure about said thrown together sub-par parts 3. Post on 996 forum that your engine suddenly imploded, mocking the 996 forum 4. Have a fellow RL member dig up this thread and post it 5. Have buyer of car, who just replaced engine, read this thread and begin a possible lawsuit with the help/support of fellow RL members

Adding this post here as well so others do not make the same mistake. The information I'm about to talk about is not in the spec sheet. I had to use one of my textbooks from college to get this information. 46qqa33.jpg This chart is used to determine your dynamic and static load rating for an equation used to figure out the life cycle of a bearing. Before I did any math, I noticed the load ratings are very similar, indicating to me the bearing KK used appears to be a 02 series deep groove ball bearing. All bearing part numbers are made up of a type code, series, and bore. The second digit is what we're interested in as that indicates the robustness of the bearing. A number 2 series bearing indicates it should only be used for light duty applications. The item ID for the bearing used is 6 2 04. The 6 indicates it is a roller ball bearing, 2 for light duty, and 04 for a 20mm bore. (Except for 0 through 3, the bore size is simply five times the third and fourth digits together) The spec sheet and item ID lead me to conclude the reason the bearing failed is that it's only a light duty bearing. As a mechanical engineer, and a human being with common sense, would not recommend this bearing for this application.

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Please do not pay attention to the information above, it's just wrong. And I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I know this. I come the school of hard knocks.

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Your inability to articulate yourself and provide any discussion is a real testament to that. Paul, everything I stated in that post was fact except where I said I would not recommend using a light duty bearing. Bearing nomenclature is a standardized process. 6204 bearing is a standard item that nsk, skf, ***, etc. all make. They may all have unique suffixes at the end of it, but this number is a standard item. I've done nothing but regurgitate information in that regard. Why did I recommend not using a regular 6204 bearing? The only two people who've ever used this bearing had the bearing fail and BOCA bearing, the manufacture, advised against using this bearing for this application. The SKF 6204 bearing spec sheet provides a fatigue load limit of 0 .28kN. That is roughly 63lbf. That means if you want the bearing to reach it's 'full life cycle', you cannot exceed this force. The cyclic loads coming from the chain and sprocket will easily exceed that. You combine that cyclic load with the engine vibration, and you will set yourself up for trouble. You can have 6204 bearings that have a modified internal design with the same boundary dimensions. The bearings used here do not fit that description.

The other issue is the ABEC rating. The stock bearing is C3. Tighter tolerances are available but are not necessarily better in this IMSB application.Thermal expansion is cited as the reason.Who knows? Not me. If the bearing is a counterfeit/fake/sub-standard then all the part numbers and specs are useless. So the interesting challenge is first to find a source of bearings that is not counterfeit. The interesting cheap compromise for the load/lube argument is to fit a cylindrical roller bearing with Pedro's DOF ? Assuming the bearing s not a fake ! BTW Pedro's the single row bearing in his kit was "SKF Made in Argentina".

I have gone with the Pelican ims bearing kit.....will do it again with next clutch, trans service... I have a LAN tool, My question... If I use cam locking plates and TDC locking pin, do I need to use set screws for the intermediate shaft sprocket? And if I have to, then I may have to rotate the intermediate shaft so the sprocket flats line up with the set screws.... can't keep the Motor, cams locked up at TDC. And....the chain tensioners...... loosen after the locking plates and TDC pin is installed? It may seem silly, but skipping a tooth trying to replace the IMS is not what I want to do. Thank all

This is a thread you probably didn't want to reopen.... Some history here. Try starting a new thread on your installation question, you might bet better results.

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Thank you